Shades of Calvinism vs. the Gospel

Bible Highlighter said:

In my experience in discussing and studying Calvinism: All forms of Calvinism promote the idea that it is ultimately God who saves you and it is in nothing that you did. A person is saved by election or by some kind of regeneration before they exercise faith in the gospel. Many Calvinists believe (from my understanding on Calvinism) is that they consider our free will choice to exercise faith as a work, and thus God needs to save us by His grace and change us. God saves us, and we do not make the choice to be saved (in the world of Calvinism). Some in Calvinism say that “Calvinism is the gospel.”

This is not what I believe the Bible teaches. I believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe. The gospel is defined for us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The gospel is believing that Christ died for us, that He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf for salvation. This is the gospel upon which we are saved. This is how we first get saved is by believing the gospel by faith. We are not saved before this point by the grace of God or by Him zapping us or regenerating us to be saved. We exercise faith in the gospel and then we are saved.

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I was a Calvinist at one point. However, the more I studied the Scriptures the more I realized they did not support Calvinism. Additionally, the pastors I spoke with couldn't answer the hard questions.

Bible Highlighter said:

Hello Butch5:

Seeing you appear to like squirrels (because of your avatar), there is a really entertaining video I seen recently with squirrels that you may enjoy.

Peace, and blessings be unto you in the Lord.

Okay, now back to the disussion.

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Thanks, I've seen that. It's pretty cool. The pic in my avatar is one I took.

Bible Highlighter said:

In my experience in discussing and studying Calvinism: All forms of Calvinism promote the idea that it is ultimately God who saves you and it is in nothing that you did. A person is saved by election or by some kind of regeneration before they exercise faith in the gospel. Many Calvinists believe (from my understanding on Calvinism) is that they consider our free will choice to exercise faith as a work, and thus God needs to save us by His grace and change us. God saves us, and we do not make the choice to be saved (in the world of Calvinism). Some in Calvinism say that “Calvinism is the gospel.”

This is not what I believe the Bible teaches. I believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe. The gospel is defined for us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The gospel is believing that Christ died for us, that He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf for salvation. This is the gospel upon which we are saved. This is how we first get saved is by believing the gospel by faith. We are not saved before this point by the grace of God or by Him zapping us or regenerating us to be saved. We exercise faith in the gospel and then we are saved.

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your 2nd passage is what i believe also. Calvanism is not about free-will though. i do believe that Calvinism in its simplistic form is in your 2nd paragraph. If we were living in the times of Calvin we would possibly see that simplicity in God's grace through Christ also (like it is in OT) God's chosen in the OT had faith their was a Messiah to come who would offer salvation for everyone if they would believe and have faith in him.

Sadly over time, that simplicity in Calvinism has been elaborated on and expanded upon, even used and abused by those who oppose God's grace and into hyper-Calvinism to make it confusing for people, so much so, that people will give up believing in Christ through faith and look for a man-made religion.

Bible Highlighter said:

Okay. At what point in time do you believe salvation is individually applied to a believer (i.e. the moment a person is first saved)? Does salvation start before believing in the gospel via by election and or by a pre-regeneration before hearing the gospel by faith, or does salvation start the moment we exercise our faith in the gospel?

I believe we are saved the moment when we believe the gospel, which many times can also involve seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ by way of prayer (which can also include the confessed words “Lord Jesus”). I believe this is the 1st process of salvation (of which is called “Justification” or being saved by God's grace without the deeds of the Law). However, I see another process of salvation that follows called “Sanctification” (i.e. holy living by by God's power working in a believer). This happens after a person is saved by God's grace through faith in Christ as their Savior (and believing the gospel).

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Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

Please don't take this as a process everyone should go through, its my own experience.

I believe we must hear the word of God first and even although we might not understand it when hearing it, its working within us, even as a child. We could grow up to be rebels against God but within us there's still that working of the word going on. When we finally do understand with all our heart, mind and soul that Christ is the only answer, that's when i think a regeneration takes place in our heart and we lower ourselves before our creator and accept him with open arms and ask Christ (the only mediator between God and man) to cleanse our sins and take control of our lives and we'll follow him all the days of this earthly life. When we do that, i think Salvation begins to work and Christ cleanses us from all sin of the heart, our mind, our tongue. We then begin the work of santification through the Holy spirit guiding us to rid our lives of all worldly things, becoming tollerant, longsuffering, having endless patience, helping others, loosing our pride and possessing brotherly/benevolent love. All the worldly things we sought comfort in doesn't appeal to us and this is continuous lifelong process. We desire jobs that doesn't manipulate people (marketing, gambling, the lottery, decieving people in business dealings, etc to make more money and have more material wealth). We also start to study the bible, talk about Christianity to others (think on heaven, eternity), desiring others to seek that freedom (through Christ). That's all i can explain at this moment.

God Bless.

I was brought up knowing the Gospel, but didn't understand it fully. I was under conviction for over 15 years but still refused Christ and led a worldy life, but i didn't know that until Christ saved me. I knew that through Christ's precious blood are ye saved. 1 John 1:7, Rev 12:11, Rev 19:13 and may other places in the bible. The OT is full of foreshadows of Christ's blood shed from Genesis to Zechariah. I still never seen it with true open eyes. It was only through God's grace my eyes were opened and seen the lamb and understood what he really done for everyone's sin.

After that i went through another eye-opening by realising the water also shed at the cross is the fountain all believers can drink from spirtually Rev 7:17, Rev 21:6, Rev 22:22, 1 John 5:8 and possibly many other places in the bible, even the OT.

god bless

Bible Highlighter said:

They need to accept the gospel as laid out in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 to be initially saved. From there, they need to be faithful to the words of our Lord and His followers in the New Testament.

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I agree with that. I also think that we are predestined. We are predesinted to respond to the gospel. That is where Calvinism is correct in my opinion. We can only see things from this end of glory and it is seeing through a glass darkly. But if you respond as in 1 Corinthians 15 then you are pre-destined. It's meant to give assurance. I remember reading a passage from what I thought was Calvin years ago, and it basically said the same thing.

I think that later Calvinists, hardened the teaching of Calvin. See Victors Comments. That's why its called an ism. I am reading a couple of Calvinist books now. And they are wonderfully insightful and constantly referring to scripture.

I do have some concerns like I never hear of a Calvinist mentioning John 3:16. But do they preach the gospel? Oh yeah. Now, I will get ravaged by Calvinists and Arminians when I say this, but I am a 3 Point Calvinist AND a 3 point Arminian.

martin-luther2 said:

Now, I will get ravaged by Calvinists and Arminians when I say this, but I am a 3 Point Calvinist AND a 3 point Arminian.

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may i ask what you mean by a 3 point Arminian? is it backsliding/not desiring to grow in faith/grace? not attending your place of worship enjoying the blessing of fellowship? thinking your ok doing a small sin?, etc

Victor in Christ said:

may i ask what you mean by a 3 point Arminian? is it backsliding/not growing in faith/grace? not attending your place of worship enjoying the blessing of brotherly fellowship? thinking your ok doing a small sin?, etc

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Nope. Both Calvinism and Arminianism are man made doctrines and subject to error. They are helpful at times to interpreting the Bible.

I understand the ism you mentioned, can you expand please on 3 point Arminian?

No. If the OP finds it helpful, then fine. If not, that's fine. I am not an arguer. I don t believe I am infallible. Only God knows. We are not gods

Victor in Christ said:

I understand the ism you mentioned, can you expand please on 3 point Arminian?

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Without getting into any of the theology, I just think the 5 Points of Calvinism, and the 5 Points of Armininianism are just presuming to much on what Scripture really says. I might go through the points and okay they are helpful to me, but its really stretching it to find it in the Bible. After all, they are man made systems.

Bible Highlighter said:

You made the decision to accept Christ. God did not force that upon you. The choice to be saved was your own. If God zapped people to be saved in the Bible, and others to not be saved, then God would never get angry at the wicked.

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Christ did force it. there were many times in the past i was near to coming to christ, but it didn't happen. You need to have faith to believe me. I've said this many times on this forum, Christ saved me on the 27/12/2019. I didn't know what was going to happen, but in early March my dad was diagnosed with cancer and thanks to the Lord he's doing well now, but i live by faith day by day. Only God knew what was ahead, Christ saved me for a reason and i fully know now why.

I was saved but my mind was under so much stress, i was going crazy. Then on the 01/05/2020 i was blessed beyond measure, my cup was overflowing with joy, i had the strength to deal with every problem, i had the patience and a loving kindness i never had before. Its not even possible to explain in words.

when i read the scripture now its so plain, before i got saved it was confusing. I was going into theories, getting my mind muddles up in so-called contradictions in scripture. There are no contradictions now, there are things we will not know as Christ said it and John said there's things he seen but can not write.

I can't thank the Lord enough. God bless

Victor in Christ said:

Christ did force it. there were many times in the past i was near to coming to christ, but it didn't happen. You need to have faith to believe me. I've said this many times on this forum, Christ saved me on the 27/12/2019. I didn't know what was going to happen, but in early March my dad was diagnosed with cancer and thanks to the Lord he's doing well now, but i live by faith day by day. Only God knew what was ahead, Christ saved me for a reason and i fully know now why.

I was saved but my mind was under so much stress, i was going crazy. Then on the 01/05/2020 i was blessed beyond measure, my cup was overflowing with joy, i had the strength to deal with every problem, i had the patience and a loving kindness i never had before. Its not even possible to explain in words.

I can't thank the Lord enough. God bless

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I think I agree with your viewpoint. Christ did it. You didn't?