THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS (Luke 16) IS NOT A PARABLE

Status
Not open for further replies.

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
They are different places yet refer to the same place? How does that make sense? Remember, in the Bible there is no hell. Hell is an English word The Scriptures were written in Hebrew and Greek. They didn't know anything about the word hell. The English translators are the ones who conflated three different places with one English word. It has confused many, and it seems it has confused you also.
I didn't give you opinions. Logical fallacies are not opinions, they are errors in reasoning. I've shown where and how your statements have contained them. What you've rejected is Scripture and sound reasoning.
So, it's not I that should spend their internet time in study. I can answer the questions. It's those who claim the parable is literal and about an afterlife that don't have the answers.
Your post is nonsensical. Of course the English word "hell" is not in the Hebrew OT or Greek NT. None of our English words are in either testament.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, translated hades and gehenna in the LXX and NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.
Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [γεενναν/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?
…..Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios” and “kolasis?”
…..In the EOB, footnote pg. 180

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).
= = = = = = = = = =
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = = = = =
KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aiōniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In the EOB Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, uses αιωνιου/aiōniou, in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone has doubts/questions about the EOB version I suggest they read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.





 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Lots of talk, thinking and philosophy. Now how about answering the question posed to ALL UR believers......or those (you) who accept the theology----

Now you post the Scriptures which tell us that "ALL" of those individuals will accept Christ and be saved and then removed from the Lake of Fire" and delivered to Heaven with God.

That is exactly what all of you have been saying. NOW PROVE IT!


There has been more than enough words, and comments and this and that. Just post the Scriptures that validate your opinion and we can put all of this to bed.
At least four times in Romans five we are given the outcome, the results of what Christ has done for ALL of humankind. This INFORMS us of what happens in reference to the LoF. Grace is LARGER than the trespass. (see bold below) Grace, justification and righteousness are a result of what Christ did. It's not about us.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
At least four times in Romans five we are given the outcome, the results of what Christ has done for ALL of humankind. This INFORMS us of what happens in reference to the LoF. Grace is LARGER than the trespass. (see bold below) Grace, justification and righteousness are a result of what Christ did. It's not about us.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Steve...…..
Now you post the Scriptures which tell us that "ALL" of those individuals will accept Christ and be saved and then removed from the Lake of Fire" and delivered to Heaven with God.

That is exactly what all of you have been saying. NOW PROVE IT!
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
They are different places yet refer to the same place? How does that make sense? Remember, in the Bible there is no hell. Hell is an English word The Scriptures were written in Hebrew and Greek. They didn't know anything about the word hell. The English translators are the ones who conflated three different places with one English word. It has confused many, and it seems it has confused you also.

I didn't give you opinions. Logical fallacies are not opinions, they are errors in reasoning. I've shown where and how your statements have contained them. What you've rejected is Scripture and sound reasoning.

So, it's not I that should spend their internet time in study. I can answer the questions. It's those who claim the parable is literal and about an afterlife that don't have the answers.

Playing games with words is not going to give you the truth.

Butch, the word “Sheol” in Hebrew is used in a variety of ways in the Old Testament. Sometimes it refers to the realm of the dead or the nether world.

Sometimes it has a more of a general connotation: both the righteous and the wicked go to Sheol, in terms of the grave.

Sometimes it has much more of a negative connotation in terms of the wicked going to Sheol, and it being a place that is not good, a place in which it’s not a part of the land of the living, so it has a negative connotation.

And that prepares us then for the New Testament, for when Jesus comes on the scene, and in the teaching of Jesus to the people in his context there was a more fully developed idea that there is a place of judgment.

Now for the facts or as Paul Harvey would say........Now for the REST of the story.

The word “hell” appears 54 times in the Holy Bible. Hell is clearly defined in your Bible as a place of torment and burning. Only a fool who rejects what he reads would say hell is the grave or only separation from God. If you gave the passages on Shaol/Hades/Hell/Gehenna to a 12 year old child, he would conclude hell is a place of fire and torment without rest and it goes on and on for ever.

Now why is it some educated people and the “good, godly, holy, Bible scholars and religious leaders” that don’t resemble the life, speech, or conversation of anyone Christian that you read about in the book of Acts can’t get it but a child can? You think about that for a while.
http://www.studiesinthebook.com/studies/hell.pdf

The unsaved and the devil with his angels will be tormented without rest day and night for ever and ever in fire. Hell is not popular in our days and that’s why it is removed from the newer versions of your Bible including the NKJV.

That is why most “Christian” churches today won’t mention it because they couldn’t get $$$ and wouldn’t grow like some of them do. One thing I learned, if you want to keep a lot of people, you will need to become like a lot of the people. You will need to give them what they want to hear instead of what God says. No thank you, I won’t be reckoned among that bunch.

This whole mess of “give your life to Jesus” or “make Jesus Lord of your life” doesn’t save you. What saves you is knowing you’re a wicked sinner, in danger of condemnation, and you believe on his name and that he died on the cross FOR YOUR SINS and was buried and rose again the third day according to scripture. That is what saves you!

What are you saved from then if you don’t believe in hell? The grave? Both saved and lost people die and go to the grave. I know what I am saved from. I am saved from death, hell, sin, and the grave. Hallelujah! Praise the LORD
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Most people will not agree with you opinion as it is not Bible based however it is personally based in YOUR thoughts of what YOU want to happen.

I wish that it were true. It would be wonderful if ALL people of ALL the ages would be saved and escape the Lake of Fire.

The fact is Major, you conveniently skip over many declarations of the Scriptures to your great loss & skimpy horizon of His majestic purposes!

Saint Steve posted this just this morning....

Not a promise only: an oath

The purpose of God to save all men is as unalterable as His nature of love and His character of holiness.

Not only has God stated that He will save all men, not only has God promised that He will save all men, but God has SWORN BY AN OATH that He will save all men!

This truth stands forth in clarity in the glorious words declared openly by God Himself.

In fact, when God could find no greater, He swore an oath by Himself, vowing that every promise He had made unto the children of men would be accomplished.

What He had spoken He was well able to perform. God is faithful, who also will do it!

What does God's Oath entail?

We are warned never to swear, or make a vow; either by heaven or by earth.

For it is better never to make a vow, than to make one, and then not be able to keep it.

Great penalty can be incurred upon our carelessly made vows and pledges. We see this in the reckless vow made by Jephthah. In Judges 11:30-40 we read that he "vowed a vow unto the Lord" which caused him and his daughter great pain, sorrow, and loss. -J. Preston Eby-
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
768
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,557.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Playing games with words is not going to give you the truth.

Butch, the word “Sheol” in Hebrew is used in a variety of ways in the Old Testament. Sometimes it refers to the realm of the dead or the nether world.

Sometimes it has a more of a general connotation: both the righteous and the wicked go to Sheol, in terms of the grave.

Sometimes it has much more of a negative connotation in terms of the wicked going to Sheol, and it being a place that is not good, a place in which it’s not a part of the land of the living, so it has a negative connotation.

And that prepares us then for the New Testament, for when Jesus comes on the scene, and in the teaching of Jesus to the people in his context there was a more fully developed idea that there is a place of judgment.

Now for the facts or as Paul Harvey would say........Now for the REST of the story.

The word “hell” appears 54 times in the Holy Bible. Hell is clearly defined in your Bible as a place of torment and burning. Only a fool who rejects what he reads would say hell is the grave or only separation from God. If you gave the passages on Shaol/Hades/Hell/Gehenna to a 12 year old child, he would conclude hell is a place of fire and torment without rest and it goes on and on for ever.

Now why is it some educated people and the “good, godly, holy, Bible scholars and religious leaders” that don’t resemble the life, speech, or conversation of anyone Christian that you read about in the book of Acts can’t get it but a child can? You think about that for a while.
http://www.studiesinthebook.com/studies/hell.pdf

The unsaved and the devil with his angels will be tormented without rest day and night for ever and ever in fire. Hell is not popular in our days and that’s why it is removed from the newer versions of your Bible including the NKJV.

That is why most “Christian” churches today won’t mention it because they couldn’t get $$$ and wouldn’t grow like some of them do. One thing I learned, if you want to keep a lot of people, you will need to become like a lot of the people. You will need to give them what they want to hear instead of what God says. No thank you, I won’t be reckoned among that bunch.

This whole mess of “give your life to Jesus” or “make Jesus Lord of your life” doesn’t save you. What saves you is knowing you’re a wicked sinner, in danger of condemnation, and you believe on his name and that he died on the cross FOR YOUR SINS and was buried and rose again the third day according to scripture. That is what saves you!

What are you saved from then if you don’t believe in hell? The grave? Both saved and lost people die and go to the grave. I know what I am saved from. I am saved from death, hell, sin, and the grave. Hallelujah! Praise the LORD
It's not I that am playing games. You've essentially ignored everything I've said. You simply say I disagree and don't address it. Here again in this post you conflate Hades and Gehenna which I've clearly shown were two different places. You keep going back to the English word hell that didn't appear in the Scriptures. As I said, the Scriptures were written in Hebrew and Greek not English. Your insistence on the use of the word hell conflates several places and causes confusion because the reader doesn't know which place is being spoken of. It seems to me too, from your posts, that you use these terms interchangeably. They are not interchangeable. They are different.

Sheol and Hades are essentially the same. The translators of the LXX used Hades to translate shoel. That you see different English words used to translate a single Greek or Hebrew word shows that the translators are imposing their beliefs onto the text.

You said,
"the word “Sheol” in Hebrew is used in a variety of ways in the Old Testament. Sometimes it refers to the realm of the dead or the nether world.

Sometimes it has a more of a general connotation: both the righteous and the wicked go to Sheol, in terms of the grave.

Sometimes it has much more of a negative connotation in terms of the wicked going to Sheol, and it being a place that is not good, a place in which it’s not a part of the land of the living, so it has a negative connotation."

That is a description of the grave. The grave is the realm of the dead. It is the netherworld. It is the place where the righteous and the wicked go. It is a place that is not a part of the land of the living. However, in all of that there is nothing said of the people there being alive. Again, one must bring that idea to the text. One doesn't fine it there.

If one reads hell in their bible they likely will see a place of fire and torment. However, if one sees Hades and Gehenna they will realize that Gehenna is a place of fire and that Hades is not a place of fire and torment, but rather a place where the dead go. The dead go to the grave. This is why the word hell should be removed from all English Bibles. Instead of the word hell, the actual names of the places should be used. This would eliminate the conflation of multiple places and it would rid the reader of the baggage that is associated with the word hell. This one word has caused so much confusion among Christians.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The fact is Major, you conveniently skip over many declarations of the Scriptures to your great loss & skimpy horizon of His majestic purposes!

Saint Steve posted this just this morning....

Not a promise only: an oath

The purpose of God to save all men is as unalterable as His nature of love and His character of holiness.

Not only has God stated that He will save all men, not only has God promised that He will save all men, but God has SWORN BY AN OATH that He will save all men!

This truth stands forth in clarity in the glorious words declared openly by God Himself.

In fact, when God could find no greater, He swore an oath by Himself, vowing that every promise He had made unto the children of men would be accomplished.

What He had spoken He was well able to perform. God is faithful, who also will do it!

What does God's Oath entail?

We are warned never to swear, or make a vow; either by heaven or by earth.

For it is better never to make a vow, than to make one, and then not be able to keep it.

Great penalty can be incurred upon our carelessly made vows and pledges. We see this in the reckless vow made by Jephthah. In Judges 11:30-40 we read that he "vowed a vow unto the Lord" which caused him and his daughter great pain, sorrow, and loss. -J. Preston Eby-

It really does not matter any more "Moonbeam". You have summed up the entire thread when you said...…...

Mr. Finlinen states that...…….
"There is no Scripture that will answer what you ask. "

Mr. Finlinen has just admitted what I and everyone else who read the Bible know.....
"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! HE SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It's not I that am playing games. You've essentially ignored everything I've said. You simply say I disagree and don't address it. Here again in this post you conflate Hades and Gehenna which I've clearly shown were two different places. You keep going back to the English word hell that didn't appear in the Scriptures. As I said, the Scriptures were written in Hebrew and Greek not English. Your insistence on the use of the word hell conflates several places and causes confusion because the reader doesn't know which place is being spoken of. It seems to me too, from your posts, that you use these terms interchangeably. They are not interchangeable. They are different.

Sheol and Hades are essentially the same. The translators of the LXX used Hades to translate shoel. That you see different English words used to translate a single Greek or Hebrew word shows that the translators are imposing their beliefs onto the text.

You said,
"the word “Sheol” in Hebrew is used in a variety of ways in the Old Testament. Sometimes it refers to the realm of the dead or the nether world.

Sometimes it has a more of a general connotation: both the righteous and the wicked go to Sheol, in terms of the grave.

Sometimes it has much more of a negative connotation in terms of the wicked going to Sheol, and it being a place that is not good, a place in which it’s not a part of the land of the living, so it has a negative connotation."

That is a description of the grave. The grave is the realm of the dead. It is the netherworld. It is the place where the righteous and the wicked go. It is a place that is not a part of the land of the living. However, in all of that there is nothing said of the people there being alive. Again, one must bring that idea to the text. One doesn't fine it there.

If one reads hell in their bible they likely will see a place of fire and torment. However, if one sees Hades and Gehenna they will realize that Gehenna is a place of fire and that Hades is not a place of fire and torment, but rather a place where the dead go. The dead go to the grave. This is why the word hell should be removed from all English Bibles. Instead of the word hell, the actual names of the places should be used. This would eliminate the conflation of multiple places and it would rid the reader of the baggage that is associated with the word hell. This one word has caused so much confusion among Christians.

You keep saying that I have ignore all that you have said. YOU and I both know that is not true. I have not ignored you but instead I have disagreed with just about everything you have said as none of it corresponds to the Scriptures. Therefore all you have said is just PERSONAL OPINIONS.

As our friend "finelinen" and your parter in this thread has confirmed......….

"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! HE SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

Now Butch, please read this carefully...…...Mr. "finelinen" also know as MOONBEAM has said what I and others have been saying from the beginning of this thread...…………….

The Bible does not indicate further opportunity to receive salvation after a person dies.

Now as nicely as I can say this......I really do not care what YOU THINK. WHat YOU are posting is FALSE teaching that is found NO WHERE in the Bible and for me, that is the end of the thread.

So then I am not ignoring YOU, I just am not interested in reading your same FALSE theology over and over again.

YOU are wrong, the Bible says you are wrong and @FineLinen says you are ALL wrong.

THERE IS NO BIBLICAL SCRIPTURE AS A SECOND CHANCE AFTER DEATH.
THERE IS NO BIBLICAL SCRIPTURE AS PURGATORY.

Jesus told a factual story illustrating this in Luke 16:16-31.

Verse 26 describes “a great chasm” between heaven and hades (meaning: place of the dead) that is “set in place,” so that no one can cross from one side to the other = NO SECOND CHANCE!
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
768
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,557.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You keep saying that I have ignore all that you have said. YOU and I both know that is not true. I have not ignored you but instead I have disagreed with just about everything you have said as none of it corresponds to the Scriptures. Therefore all you have said is just PERSONAL OPINIONS.

As our friend "finelinen" and your parter in this thread has confirmed......….

"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! HE SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

Now Butch, please read this carefully...…...Mr. "finelinen" also know as MOONBEAM has said what I and others have been saying from the beginning of this thread...…………….

The Bible does not indicate further opportunity to receive salvation after a person dies.

Now as nicely as I can say this......I really do not care what YOU THINK. WHat YOU are posting is FALSE teaching that is found NO WHERE in the Bible and for me, that is the end of the thread.

So then I am not ignoring YOU, I just am not interested in reading your same FALSE theology over and over again.

YOU are wrong, the Bible says you are wrong and @FineLinen says you are ALL wrong.

THERE IS NO BIBLICAL SCRIPTURE AS A SECOND CHANCE AFTER DEATH.
THERE IS NO BIBLICAL SCRIPTURE AS PURGATORY.

Jesus told a factual story illustrating this in Luke 16:16-31.

Verse 26 describes “a great chasm” between heaven and hades (meaning: place of the dead) that is “set in place,” so that no one can cross from one side to the other = NO SECOND CHANCE!

It's funny how you claim you've not ignored what I said, yet you keep indicating that I'm a universalist when I've stated plainly numerous times that I am not a universalist. I DON"T BELIEVE THAT EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED. I DON'T BELIEVE PEOPLE WILL GET A CHANCE TO BE SAVED AFTER THEY DIE. I AM NOT A UNIVERSALIST. Did I get the point across this time?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It's funny how you claim you've not ignored what I said, yet you keep indicating that I'm a universalist when I've stated plainly numerous times that I am not a universalist. I DON"T BELIEVE THAT EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED. I DON'T BELIEVE PEOPLE WILL GET A CHANCE TO BE SAVED AFTER THEY DIE. I AM NOT A UNIVERSALIST. Did I get the point across this time?

I am not claiming anying butch. I have told you once already that when you run with outlaws you will hang with those same outlaws.

When your theology is the same as Universalists, it does not matter what you say you are or are not. You are in fact what THEY are saying and that is what you are doing.

When you lay down with dogs, you will get fleas!
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Major: one little question for you.

Who are the ONLY individuals who are not "hurt" by the 2nd death?

No born again, blood washed human being will be tormented in Hell. However, "ALL" who reject Jesus Christ will be HURT/TORMENTS ETERNALLY, FOREVER & EVER & EVER & EVER...…………..and FOREVER!

Remember............
Mr. Finlinen admitted what I and everyone else who read the Bible know.....
"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! HE SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
No born again, blood washed human being will be tormented in Hell.

The ghastly dogma of unending torment is from the pit, NOT ABBA, the Father of all fathers!

There are children of God. There are saints of God.

There are those who follow the Lamb in the withersoever of His steps. Those incredible trophies of Fathers love & grace are called overcomers.

The overcomer ONLY is not "hurt" by the 2nd death!
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
768
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,557.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am not claiming anying butch. I have told you once already that when you run with outlaws you will hang with those same outlaws.

When your theology is the same as Universalists, it does not matter what you say you are or are not. You are in fact what THEY are saying and that is what you are doing.

When you lay down with dogs, you will get fleas!
I don't run with anyone. It seems your just trying to lump me in with others so you can avoid addressing what I've said and the fact that I've refuted what you've claimed. I've shown that it's not literal. That's easily proven with Scripture. I think you just don't want to accept what is clearly shown.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Steve...…..
Now you post the Scriptures which tell us that "ALL" of those individuals will accept Christ and be saved and then removed from the Lake of Fire" and delivered to Heaven with God.

That is exactly what all of you have been saying. NOW PROVE IT!
You need more? Okay, here you go.
God will reconcile ALL things to himself. Nothing that ends up in the LoF will not be reconciled to him. Through Christ ALL things HAVE been reconciled to God.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Saint Steven said:
You need more? Okay, here you go.
God will reconcile ALL things to himself. Nothing that ends up in the LoF will not be reconciled to him. Through Christ ALL things HAVE been reconciled to God.
Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
And let's just ignore the man behind the curtain pulling the cables and flipping switches. i.e. the context of Col 1:19-20
Colossians 1:19-23
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Yes Jesus' mission was to reconcile "all things" unto Himself but there is a condition. vs. 23.
One is only presented holy, unblameable and unreproveable in his God's sight: "If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,"
If it was a done deal with no conditions Paul would not have included the conditions. The converse of vs. 23 "If you do NOT continue in the faith grounded and settled, but are moved away from the hope of the gospel," you will not be "presented holy, unblameable and unreproveable in God's sight.":
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES THAT SUPPORT UNIVERSALISM!.

FALSE! BUT THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES CONDEMNING WILFUL BLINDNESS. :preach:
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
FALSE! BUT THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES CONDEMNING WILFUL BLINDNESS. :preach:

Then by all means post those Scriptures which say...…..
"ALL people will be saved in the end of the world. ALL those in the Lake of Fire will be saved and leave the Lake of Fire and go to heaven even Satan and the demons".
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You need more? Okay, here you go.
God will reconcile ALL things to himself. Nothing that ends up in the LoF will not be reconciled to him. Through Christ ALL things HAVE been reconciled to God.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Steve, talk is cheep and opinions are worthless. I am only intersested in what the Word of God says about these things.

So then, go right ahead, right now and post the Scriptures that tell us...…..
"ALL people will be reconciled to Christ in the end of the world. ALL those in the Lake of Fire will be saved and leave the Lake of Fire and go to heaven even Satan and the demons".
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I don't run with anyone. It seems your just trying to lump me in with others so you can avoid addressing what I've said and the fact that I've refuted what you've claimed. I've shown that it's not literal. That's easily proven with Scripture. I think you just don't want to accept what is clearly shown.

Again.....that is just not true. I have addressed every single one of your opinions.

The fact is that your opinions are the same as the Universalists on this thread. I calls them the ways I see them.

Again.....you have refuted NOTHING with the Scriptures. YOU have only posted WHAT YOU THINK and what YOU want the Scriptures to say.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.