If Peter wasn't the first pope, who was?

Root of Jesse said:

But still, many times in the first 12 generations of the Church, did different regions appeal to the Pope in Rome to help make decisions,

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Not exclusively. There were appeals to other bishops as well.

and no decision of a Synod was good until the pope agreed to it

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Not true. Some individuals made such claims, but history has shown otherwise.

Root of Jesse said:

Define that. St. Ignatius of Antioch, I believe, records just such an appeal to Rome. But in the first 12 generations of the Church there was no East/West, really. We have such a letter from St. Clement to the Corinthians.

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What is your definition of 12 generations? There were differences between the east and west almost from the beginning. It all began in Jerusalem and spread westward.

The Bishop of Rome is the Pope.

Victor in Christ said:

The Bishop of Rome is the Pope.

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I think we can all agree to that statement.

However, the question asked who the first Pope was.

Victor in Christ said:

The Bishop of Rome is the Pope.

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There are currently three positions whose holder is described as Pope at the moment.

Francis Bishop of the Catholic Church centred in Rome - aka the Patriarch of the West
Tawadros Bishop of the Oriental Orthodox Church centred in Cairo - aka the Patriarch of Alexandria (OO)
Theodore Bishop of the Eastern Orthodox Church centred in Cairo - aka the Patriarch of Alexandria (EO)

The photo here at an oecumenical service in Cairo following the bombing of St Marks Cathedral is sometimes referred to as 3 Popes and a Patriarch. The Patriarch being Bartholomew Patriarch of Constantinople.

Albion said:

I think we can all agree to that statement.

However, the question asked who the first Pope was.

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The first Christian Bishop of Rome to sit on that chair of authority speaking for Christianity.

Victor in Christ said:

The first Christian Bishop of Rome to sit on that chair of authority speaking for Christianity.

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Was probably Leo the Great. It clearly was not true of the bishops of Rome during the first several centuries of Church history.

Albion said:

Was probably Leo the Great. It clearly was not true of the bishops of Rome during the first several centuries of Church history.

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I never go into these things much now since Christ saved me. I used to and read much about the subject but it was religious point scoring on my behalf and others. I still believe the Church in Rome went astray spiritually around the 4th century by talking control over other churches. It doesn't bother me now because i'm saved and what has happened in the past can't be changed.

The present and future is important to me now to spread the simplicity of Gospel to others and to grow in grace myself. All churches have had their faults and still continue to. Ecclesiastical seperation encouraged by Apostle Paul, Peter, etc was and still is a holy thing where we can learn to grow spiritually and learn to stay away from things which leads us astray, using the Holy scripture as our guide through the power of the Holy Spirit.

god bless.

Philip_B said:

There are currently three positions whose holder is described as Pope at the moment.

Francis Bishop of the Catholic Church centred in Rome - aka the Patriarch of the West
Tawadros Bishop of the Oriental Orthodox Church centred in Cairo - aka the Patriarch of Alexandria (OO)
Theodore Bishop of the Eastern Orthodox Church centred in Cairo - aka the Patriarch of Alexandria (EO)

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The photo here at an oecumenical service in Cairo following the bombing of St Marks Cathedral is sometimes referred to as 3 Popes and a Patriarch. The Patriarch being Bartholomew Patriarch of Constantinople.

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Listen to this sermon below. Rev 2:17. The white stone given to the overcomer. The ancients courts of justice used pebbles/stones to condemn or pardon someone. Ancient Rome, Greece and Jewish courts used it. Paul in Acts 26:10 says he used his 'voice' to condemn Christians in the Sanhedrin court. The word 'voice' in v 10 means pebble/stone. It also can mean to blaspheme of sacred things.

Is it possible that what happened in the past is repeating itself today where religious leaders will come together to give their (pebble/stone, vote/voice) in deciding what will happen in Israel? Dangerous stuff.

Hidden Manna, White Stone, New Name

Victor in Christ said:

Listen to this sermon below. Rev 2:17. The white stone given to the overcomer. The ancients courts of justice used pebbles/stones to condemn or pardon someone. Ancient Rome, Greece and Jewish courts used it. Paul in Acts 26:10 says he used his 'voice' to condemn Christians in the Sanhedrin court. The word 'voice' in v 10 means pebble/stone. It also can mean to blaspheme of sacred things.

Is it possible that what happened in the past is repeating itself today where religious leaders will come together to give their (pebble/stone, vote/voice) in deciding what will happen in Israel? Dangerous stuff.

Hidden Manna, White Stone, New Name

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I fail to see any meaningful connection between the sermon you posted and my post. The image was of four senior clergy joined together in solidarity following the bombing of the Coptic Cathedral of St Mark to pray for Christians in Egypt and to pray for the who were injured or killed, and to pray for those whose hearts sought violence against Christians.

Malihah said:

'submits to the authority of the Church'. And what Church would this be? The Protestant churches that stole everything they have from Rome and then pawned it off as their own. Your bible came from Rome. Your Reformers came out of Rome. Your education came from Rome. Rome was here long before you came along so here is a proverb for you - 'the master does not bow to the wishes and dreams of his runaway slave'.

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Your profile says you are Eastern Orthodox.

What do you say, does Rome need to be restored to communion with Orthodoxy, or do the Eastern Churches need to be restored to communion with Catholicism?

I'm Lutheran, my Church is the Holy Catholic Church Christ founded two thousand years ago, the Church of St. Paul, St. Augustine, St. Athanasius, and indeed all the holy fathers. My church no more began in the 16th century than your church began in the 11th century.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Your profile says you are Eastern Orthodox.

What do you say, does Rome need to be restored to communion with Orthodoxy, or do the Eastern Churches need to be restored to communion with Catholicism?

I'm Lutheran, my Church is the Holy Catholic Church Christ founded two thousand years ago, the Church of St. Paul, St. Augustine, St. Athanasius, and indeed all the holy fathers. My church no more began in the 16th century than your church began in the 11th century.

-CryptoLutheran

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The Pope in his great wisdom wants to unify the whole of Christendom and is actively working to achieve this goal. You will be allowed to bow and kiss his ring once more.

Victor in Christ said:

I never go into these things much now since Christ saved me. I used to and read much about the subject but it was religious point scoring on my behalf and others. I still believe the Church in Rome went astray spiritually around the 4th century by talking control over other churches. It doesn't bother me now because i'm saved and what has happened in the past can't be changed.

The present and future is important to me now to spread the simplicity of Gospel to others and to grow in grace myself. All churches have had their faults and still continue to. Ecclesiastical seperation encouraged by Apostle Paul, Peter, etc was and still is a holy thing where we can learn to grow spiritually and learn to stay away from things which leads us astray, using the Holy scripture as our guide through the power of the Holy Spirit.

god bless.

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Well!!! That is a rather unapologetic position.

Seriously, I think we all start apologetics with zeal and hopefully end with love of the truth.

Best to you.

tz620q said:

Well!!! That is a rather unapologetic position.

Seriously, I think we all start apologetics with zeal and hopefully end with love of the truth.

Best to you.

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I'm just starting in my faith and i can't say anything for sure. I know the Roman Catholic Church teaches Christ is sitting in heaven at the right hand of the Father in heaven. I do not agree with their works based salvation, but i know there are many people in the RC Church who have more faith in Christ than other denominations around the world.

I like to be corrected with kindness to grow in my faith, its scriptural. I will accept any correction from anyone if its scripturally based. I only learned yesterday that Jesus Christ holds the keys to heaven and hell Rev 1:18. The author of that verse is the same author in Rev 1:8.

Please don't take this as a criticisim, its not my intention. God Bless

Philip_B said:

I fail to see any meaningful connection between the sermon you posted and my post. The image was of four senior clergy joined together in solidarity following the bombing of the Coptic Cathedral of St Mark to pray for Christians in Egypt and to pray for the who were injured or killed, and to pray for those whose hearts sought violence against Christians.

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Honestly, in all demoninations man takes votes who will be a Pope/minister/paster, Elder/Bishop/Priest. When i was studying 1 John 2:26-29 last night i started to think when the holy spirit dwells within a believer you don't need a man to teach you, simply the bible to spread the Gospel.

Hope and pray Christ is telling us something here. Amen

Victor in Christ said:

Honestly, in all demoninations man takes votes who will be a Pope/minister/paster, Elder/Bishop/Priest. When i was studying 1 John 2:26-29 last night i started to think when the holy spirit dwells within a believer you don't need a man to teach you, simply the bible to spread the Gospel.

Hope and pray Christ is telling us something here. Amen

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It is very critical that you examine the larger context of 1 John 2 there, he is warning against the false teachings of heretics, and for his readers to hold fast to the faith they have already received from the beginning. He speaks as one confident in his readers faith, that they will persevere in the truth and not turn to false teachers. It does not teach that all one needs is a Bible and to go on it alone. Indeed, consistently Scripture says quite differently, and it expects that converts go through instruction, and that we be part of living, breathing communities, and that we receive and continue in the faith we have heard from the beginning.

-CryptoLutheran

thanks ViaCrucus.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

What is your definition of 12 generations? There were differences between the east and west almost from the beginning. It all began in Jerusalem and spread westward.

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First 500 years, thereabout. Up to St. Benedict and St. Scholastica, approximately.

Albion said:

Was probably Leo the Great. It clearly was not true of the bishops of Rome during the first several centuries of Church history.

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Except that it clearly was true. Documented by the letter to the Corinthians by St. Clement. Incidently, just because many documents don't exist today means nothing about the existence of a leader of the Christian Church from the day of Pentecost. Just because he wasn't called Pope or the like means little either.

Victor in Christ said:

I never go into these things much now since Christ saved me. I used to and read much about the subject but it was religious point scoring on my behalf and others. I still believe the Church in Rome went astray spiritually around the 4th century by talking control over other churches. It doesn't bother me now because i'm saved and what has happened in the past can't be changed.

The present and future is important to me now to spread the simplicity of Gospel to others and to grow in grace myself. All churches have had their faults and still continue to. Ecclesiastical seperation encouraged by Apostle Paul, Peter, etc was and still is a holy thing where we can learn to grow spiritually and learn to stay away from things which leads us astray, using the Holy scripture as our guide through the power of the Holy Spirit.

god bless.

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What makes you think you weren't saved when you were baptized Catholic? Secondly, without knowledge of what was done and how it was done in the past, we have no future. Lastly, we must all learn to stay away from things which lead us astray. St. Paul had it, St. Peter had it, and all the others who first followed Christ. And for the record, I never came here to score points. Only to state the truth and slay misconceptions of Catholicism.