The first resurection

sovereigngrace said:

How is it eisegesis?

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How is it not eisegesis to claim that Christ is ruling now and the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ now and all enemies have been placed under His feet now, when Christ said that now (Greek nun: "Of present time) His Kingdom is not of this world and Hebrews 2:8 states that now (Greek: nun) we see not yet all things placed under Him - and yet He is promised by God in the Psalms that all nations will become His inheritance and that He will rule them with a rod of iron and yet after this time He hands the kingdom back to God the Father?

How is it not eisegesis to claim the millennial reign of Christ is now and yet Satan will only be cast into the lake of fire after the thousand years but the beast and false prophet 1,000 years before that after being destroyed by Christ at His return?

PS: When Jesus returns, either you are I, either A-millenniliats or Pre-millennilasts, are going to be eating either their words or their hats if that's what they promised to do.

So I'm telling you that Amillennilism causes eisegesis to be applied to many scriptures (many), and I'm truly sorry but you will have to wait till Jesus returns to see me eat my words and my hat (even though it's you who's going to be eating your words)

As long as someone is saved, I don't care whether he or she is a or pre millennial.

.. but I'm telling you you're practicing eisegesis

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

How is it not eisegesis to claim that Christ is ruling now and the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ now and all enemies have been placed under His feet now, when Christ said that now (Greek nun: "Of present time) His Kingdom is not of this world and Hebrews 2:8 states that now (Greek: nun) we see not yet all things placed under Him - and yet He is promised by God in the Psalms that all nations will become His inheritance and that He will rule them with a rod of iron and yet after this time He hands the kingdom back to God the Father?

How is it not eisegesis to claim the millennial reign of Christ is now and yet Satan will only be cast into the lake of fire after the thousand years but the beast and false prophet 1,000 years before that after being destroyed by Christ at His return?

PS: When Jesus returns, either you are I, either A-millenniliats or Pre-millennilasts, are going to be eating either their words or their hats if that's what they promised to do.

So I'm telling you that Amillennilism causes eisegesis to be applied to many scriptures (many), and I'm truly sorry but you will have to wait till Jesus returns to see me eat my words and my hat (even though it's you who's going to be eating your words)

As long as someone is saved, I don't care whether he or she is a or pre millennial.

.. but I'm telling you you're practicing eisegesis

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Not so. If you are going to speak on behalf of Amils at least understand what they believe.

Yes, Christ is ruling now, and, yes, all His enemies have been placed under His feet now, but the kingdoms of this world are not yet become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ. That occurs at Christ's climactic coming.

The New Testament makes clear, and speaks in the presence tense that Jesus is reigning now. You try and make it future tense, but it will never say that!

Ephesians 1:17-23: “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness (megethos or magnificence) of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”

The resurrection is constantly presented in Scripture as the moment Christ secured all power and authority over all creation, including His enemies. It is at the place of majesty that He now reigns in unchallenged power and glory.

Scripture constantly depicts the magnificence, greatness and mighty power of Christ sitting at the right hand of Majesty ruling at the place of sovereign authority upon high. He holds all heaven's power. He is King of kings. He is Lord of lords. Hebrews 1:1-3 confirms: “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty (megalosune) on high."

The word “Majesty” is interpreted from the Greek word megalosune, meaning greatness, i.e. (figuratively) divinity (often God himself). It speaks of glory, mighty power, magnificence and splendour. The phrase “being the brightness of his glory” literally reads “He is the radiance of his glory.”

Christ is no mere impotent King-in-waiting. He is not a want-to-be king. He is no ordinary powerless Prince. We see this in Matthew 28:18, where, after His resurrection, He victoriously declared, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”

This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority. All heaven’s authority was deposited upon Christ through the triumph of Calvary where He triumphantly procured absolute victory over death, hell, sin, Satan and every enemy. Christ thus assumed the heavenly throne in perfect fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy and therefore reigns as Sovereign king until His last enemy is made His footstool.

Peter recognizes this in Acts 2:33, saying, “Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”

Again, in Acts 5:30-31, he teaches: “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”

He has been “exalted” to the highest place and enjoys unchallenged authority now and for all eternity. Christ exercises divine kingship at the place of ultimate omnipotence as God and as Messiah. As God, Christ holds all power and authority in heaven and on earth, reigning over all creation. But as man He reigns over all His new creation (true spiritual Israel). His deity was simply veiled in a human body during His earthly ministry.

Hebrews 8:1 also says: "We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty (megalosune) in the heavens."

This phrase is synonymous with sitting at "the right hand of the power of God" (Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62 and Luke 22:69). The “right hand” is therefore the special place of honour and power. Christ now enjoys full participation in God's glory in His lofty seat. Of course, repeated Scripture shows us that this means He carries all power. In fact, there is nothing that is not under His authority. The majesty that He possesses is real and ongoing. In a biblical sense, being at “the right hand of the Majesty” or “the right hand of the power of God” means to be the one upon whom majesty, power and authority rests and through whom it operates.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

At first.. but..

Matthew 13:20-21 But that which was sown on the stony places is this: he who hears the Word and immediately receives it with joy. But he has no root in himself, and is temporary. For when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately becomes offended (Greek: skandalizo)

Matthew 24:9-10 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended (Greek: skandlizo), and will betray one another, and will hate one another.

Matthew 11:2-6.11 But when John heard in the prison of the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples.

And they said to Him, Are You he who should come, or do we look for another? Jesus answered and said to them, Go and tell John again those things which you hear and see: the blind receive their sight, and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear; the dead are raised, and the poor have the gospel proclaimed to them.And blessed is he, whoever shall not be offended (Greek: skandalizo) in Me.

Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

John's question which he sent his disciples to deliver to Jesus and Jesus' reply imply that John became offended by the fact that the Lord did not deliver him from the tribulation he was enduring.

And because no prophet was greater than John the Baptist, it should make the rest of us shiver and shudder - because the least in the Kingdom of heaven who is not offended by tribulation on account of Christ or on account of righteousness (as in John the Baptist's case) God nevertheless considers greater than John the Baptist.

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I understand there are many interpretations to how or what John was feeling and thinking. I know for sure that he was not doubting or even offended however, if I were to back away from my original comment, I would only go as far to say that his original expectation of Jesus Christ of Nazareth was slightly misguided.
Be blessed.

shilohsfoal said:

You should be ashamed of yourself trying to convince someone the resurrection has already taken place. I'm sure glad Paul wrote this to warn us against people like you. It spreads like gangrene it does.
2 Timothy 2:18 who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.

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I think what he is saying is.....the first resurrection is us being raised new in Christ, buried with Christ and raised a new creation, seated in heavenly places. The second resurrection must be our physical bodies coming out of the grave when Jesus returns.

i dont think he is saying the final resurrection has taken place. 2 Timothy refers to the hope of Christs return and us being resurrected in the end.

Annner said:

I think what he is saying is.....the first resurrection is us being raised new in Christ, buried with Christ and raised a new creation, seated in heavenly places. The second resurrection must be our physical bodies coming out of the grave when Jesus returns.

i dont think he is saying the final resurrection has taken place. 2 Timothy refers to the hope of Christs return and us being resurrected in the end.

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He knows that, he is just trying to discredit Amil.

shilohsfoal said:

Maybe you can answer my question then. Everyone else is avoiding it like the plague. Here it is.
In Revelation 20:4 it says those who are resurrected in the first resurrection were beheaded for thier witness of Christ. How long was it from the time you was beheaded for your testimony of Jesus till your resurrection?

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

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It is you that is avoiding the questions. The observer can look back on this thread and see how you have avoided countless Scripture, questions and points.

1. Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23?
2. Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?
3. Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?
4. Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?

sovereigngrace said:

Yes, Christ is ruling now, and, yes, all His enemies have been placed under His feet now,

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That's only true if the author of Hebrews is wrong then when he writes,

But now we do not yest see all things having been put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for every son. (Hebrews 2:8b-9).

sovereigngrace said:

but the kingdoms of this world are not yet become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ. That occurs at Christ's climactic coming.

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Correct.

sovereigngrace said:

The New Testament makes clear, and speaks in the presence tense that Jesus is reigning now. You try and make it future tense, but it will never say that!

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How can He be reigning now if the kingdoms of this world are not yet become His kingdom?

We know that He is ultimately in control and has all authority in heaven and earth and under the earth, but it is manifest that since the kingdoms of this world are not yet become His kingdom, and since, as scripture states, we see not yet all things having been placed under Him, then He reigns only over those who submit to His authority, but not yet over all kingdoms and all humans as can be seen from the scripture you quote:

He has been raised from the dead bodily and is the firstfuits of the bodily resurrection of the dead, but this has not occurred yet. Or did we all miss that bus? Paul tells us this will occur at the time of His second coming. Jesus revealed that's when He will conquer the beast and destroy it and its false prophet in the lake of fire, and that's when He will bind Satan, and that's when the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ.

Jesus revealed that Satan will be destroyed in the lake of fire a thousand years later, and a thousand years later than the beast which was destroyed by Christ a thousand years earlier. The Great White throne judgment follows and there is a new heavens and a new earth.

Just because we do not yet see all things placed under His feet, does not mean Jesus cannot subdue all things under Him right now if He wants to.

It is because of these facts that many of the promises to the Lord's faithful which are mentioned in for example Ephesians 1:17-23 (which you quote in your post) have not been fully realized yet, but the time is coming - in the millennium:

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard," nor has it entered into the heart of man, "the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

We have not yet received it all, because all things are not yet subdued under His feet.

sovereigngrace said:

The resurrection is constantly presented in Scripture as the moment Christ secured all power and authority over all creation, including His enemies. It is at the place of majesty that He now reigns in unchallenged power and glory.

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Christ's resurrection is also constantly and unambiguously presented in scripture as the firsfruits of the bodily resurrection of the dead which has not occurred yet.

Again, it's manifest in the fact that Hebrews (scripture) explicitly states that we see not yet all things placed under His feet and the kingdoms of this world are not yet become His kingdom that though He already has the power, He has not yet taken His great power and reigned in full.

Not only is God allowing challenges to the power and authority of Christ but Satan will give the beast to be destroyed by Christ its power, throne and great authority. The only way what you say can be true is if we are already living in the millennial reign of Christ and all things - Satan, the beast, false prophet, all false religions, etc etc etc has already been subdued under His feet - but Hebrews tells us we do not see it yet - and since we do not yet see it, it means it's still coming. He has the power to defeat all enemies NOW but God has preordained the way He will bring all prophecies and all promises to pass, and when. You guys (A-millennialists) are just jumping the gun.

Maria Billingsley said:

I edited my original post. It is quite possible that the first resurrection is spiritual and represents those who will be spared from the second death. Also of note, John the Baptist was beheaded and possibly many others at that time who followed Christ before His death. There is an odd verse in Matthew that personally I have never been able to figure out or even get a satisfactory answer. All these people were raised from the dead. First fruits? I dont know.
Matthew 27
51Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

As far as the final resurrection when all will be raised both the righteous and the unrighteous, we do not know that day or time.
Be blessed.

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Hi Maria,

I just want to share my view of Matthew 27:51-53. I think these people are the 144,000, because in Revelation 14:1-4 they are called the first fruits. It doesn’t say what happens to the people after they come out of the graves and appeared unto many, but if they are the 144,000 then they meet up with the Lamb on mount Sion and follow him withersoever he goes (to heaven).

I see SG responded to you in his post #197, and I can’t argue with what he said. Christ was the first resurrection because in Matthew 27:53 it states they came out of the graves after His resurrection. However I think Revelation 20:4 groups Christ’s resurrection and the resurrection in Matthew 27:51-53 as the first.

In Revelation 20:4 John sees the souls of them that were beheaded and had not received the mark of the beast. The people who come out of the graves are beheaded in the sense that Messiah was cut off as seen in Daniel 9:26. I also see the argument has been presented elsewhere that nobody could give witness to Jesus until he was born. In Acts 10:43 all the prophets prior to Jesus gave witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins.

I think John the Baptist being beheaded pointed to Messiah being cut off and has a correlation with this.

I’m not trying to debate anyone, just sharing what I do with Matthew 27:51-53.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

That's only true if the author of Hebrews is wrong then when he writes,

But now we do not yest see all things having been put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for every son. (Hebrews 2:8b-9).

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I see you are being selective in your quote. How about quoting the full verse instead of part of it? Heb 2:8: "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him."

As for the last 1/4 of the verse that you concentrate on, you are absolutely right "now we see not yet all things put under him." The fact is: there are still enemies to be born and subjugated. There are still leaders and kingdoms to fall. But the sovereign king reigns majestic, supreme and unchallenged in His power and authority, ruling over all creation (seen and unseen) and over all things (good and evil).

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

Permitting evil and using it for His ultimate glory does not negate Christ's kingship or Him ruling in divine power.

How can He be reigning now if the kingdoms of this world are not yet become His kingdom?

We know that He is ultimately in control and has all authority in heaven and earth and under the earth, but it is manifest that since the kingdoms of this world are not yet become His kingdom, and since, as scripture states, we see not yet all things having been placed under Him, then He reigns only over those who submit to His authority, but not yet over all kingdoms and all humans as can be seen from the scripture you quote:

He has been raised from the dead bodily and is the firstfuits of the bodily resurrection of the dead, but this has not occurred yet. Or did we all miss that bus?

Paul tells us this will occur at the time of His second coming.

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What versus are you talking about? Please quote. It is frustrating debating with someone who deliberately quotes half passages or doesn't quote Scripture at all.

Jesus revealed that's when He will conquer the beast and destroy it and its false prophet in the lake of fire, and that's when He will bind Satan, and that's when the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ.

Jesus revealed that Satan will be destroyed in the lake of fire a thousand years later, and a thousand years later than the beast which was destroyed by Christ a thousand tears earlier. The Great White throne judgment follows and there is a new heavens and a new earth.

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Revelation is not chronological. That is where you are getting confused. Take your chronology away from you and you have nothing in Scripture to support your theory.

As I said earlier this morning to another poster, in Revelation 19:20 the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone just before Satan; Lucifer, follows shortly after at the same second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1 and Revelation 20:10). Satan always seems to be the last sentenced in Scripture because he is the ultimate source of evil, the ring-leader and the chief enemy.

So:

· Revelation 17-19 is dealing with the subject of the beast and false prophet (Babylon - the harlot) and their current curtailment and future demise. This parallel reaches a climax at Christ's all-consummating return (Revelation 19) when they are pulled down and sentenced.
· Revelation 20:1 takes us right back to the victory of the cross and the resurrection of Christ. It is the beginning of the 7th of 7 parallels in Revelation. Jesus is indeed the first resurrection. He acquired the key (or all authority) over Satan at the resurrection. Satan was restrained by a heavy spiritual chain at the cross to enable the Gentiles (ethnos) to receive the Gospel. Satan will however be released before the second coming for his final thrown but will be destroyed at that glorious event.

Revelation 17-19 shows the subjugation of the beast and the false prophet; Revelation 20 shows the subjugation of Satan.
Just because we do not yet see all things placed under His feet, does not mean Jesus cannot subdue all things under Him right now if He wants to.

It is because of these facts that many of the promises to the Lord's faithful which are mentioned in for example Ephesians 1:17-23 (which you quote in your post) have not been fully realized yet, but the time is coming - in the millennium:

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard," nor has it entered into the heart of man, "the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

We have not yet received it all, because all things are not yet subdued under His feet.

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Whilst Christ is currently reigning over His enemies since the resurrection He has still to see their final put down. 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 explains, “For he (Christ) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted (present tense), which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (at the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

Paul, again, repeats the great truth that God “hath put all things under his feet” as He reigns in majestic glory upon high. The reign described here is aorist active indicative, meaning it is ongoing. He also shows, whilst Christ is reigning over His enemies as Lord and God, they will NOT be made His footstool, subdued and put down until the second coming.

The whole focus here is the current reign of Christ upon the heavenly throne that will culminate in the final downfall of all his enemies when he appears. Then we'll his enemies finally be subdued, put down, and made his footstool.

This Sovereign rule is not only a future hope but it is a current reality. Colossians 2:9-10 says, “For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.”

This affirms the supremacy of Christ’s nature, As the second person of the Trinity, the Lord Jesus Christ has always shared dominion over all creation. This authority, which relates to the whole sphere of God’s Sovereign rule, covers the complete extent of all creation. He is now King of kings and Lord of lords.

Christ’s universal rule, which is found in His Divine character, exercises supreme authority over everything and everyone that exists. This dominion is seen in His sovereign dealing with mankind, whether it is with an individual person or with accumulation of nations – all are subject to his controlling power and ultimate influence. Such authority could be justly described as Christ’s providential kingship.

Christ's resurrection is also constantly and unambiguously presented in scripture as the firsfruits of the bodily resurrection of the dead which has not occurred yet.

Again, it's manifest in the fact that Hebrews (scripture) explicitly states that we see not yet all things placed under His feet and the kingdoms of this world are not yet become His kingdom that though He already has the power, He has not yet taken His great power and reigned in full.

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Philippians 3:20-21 says, “we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall metaschematizo (or) change our vile body, that it may be summorphos (or) fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able (or, canst) hupotáxai (Strong’s 5293) (or) subdue (or subordinate) all things unto himself.”

Paul identifies the time of the subduing or subordinating of “all things unto himself” with the occasion of the second coming, which expressly sees the final act of redemption and the fulfilment of the glorification process. This is unquestionably the conclusion of history – the “times of restitution (or reconstitution) of all things.”

The difficulty with the Premil paradigm is that the sufferings and evil that exists in this present age continues unabated into its new millennial age. The Premil new earth is a bipolar age of justice and injustice, deliverance and bondage, light and darkness, righteousness and unrighteousness, perfection and sin, glorification and corruption, sin and sinlessness, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror.

That would mean we have “this present evil age” and also ‘the future evil age to come’. However, the age to come is never depicted as that. Moreover, whilst the “children of this age marry, and are given in marriage” (according to Christ in Luke 20:34-36), the Lord presents the future age as a glorified place that is earned by those alone who are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” These people are shown to be the glorified saints alone because Jesus says they “neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

Premil has countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies. These, they say, “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.” Countless millions of unregenerate unsaved are shown to be “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” The words of Christ negate this. The reality is, biblically, those that are worthy to obtain the age to come are neither mortals nor sinners; they are glorified saints.

Man, in his sinful corruptible state, cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer!

shilohsfoal said:

Maybe you can answer my question then. Everyone else is avoiding it like the plague. Here it is.
In Revelation 20:4 it says those who are resurrected in the first resurrection were beheaded for thier witness of Christ. How long was it from the time you was beheaded for your testimony of Jesus till your resurrection?

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

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I see what you are saying. Let me reread it. Revelation 20 is hard to understand because I know scripture teaches one final gathering and only one return of Christ. I think people are trying to combine this chapter with New Testament teachings, but they actually end up contradicting each other. As they do when they pull prophetic teachings from the OT.

When Prophetic Revelation and OT teachings contradict what Jesus, Paul and Peter taught, it makes my spiritual antenna sound an alarm.

grafted branch said:

Hi Maria,

I just want to share my view of Matthew 27:51-53. I think these people are the 144,000, because in Revelation 14:1-4 they are called the first fruits. It doesn’t say what happens to the people after they come out of the graves and appeared unto many, but if they are the 144,000 then they meet up with the Lamb on mount Sion and follow him withersoever he goes (to heaven).

I see SG responded to you in his post #197, and I can’t argue with what he said. Christ was the first resurrection because in Matthew 27:53 it states they came out of the graves after His resurrection. However I think Revelation 20:4 groups Christ’s resurrection and the resurrection in Matthew 27:51-53 as the first.

In Revelation 20:4 John sees the souls of them that were beheaded and had not received the mark of the beast. The people who come out of the graves are beheaded in the sense that Messiah was cut off as seen in Daniel 9:26. I also see the argument has been presented elsewhere that nobody could give witness to Jesus until he was born. In Acts 10:43 all the prophets prior to Jesus gave witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins.

I think John the Baptist being beheaded pointed to Messiah being cut off and has a correlation with this.

I’m not trying to debate anyone, just sharing what I do with Matthew 27:51-53.

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So, it is, therefore, impossible for our physical resurrection in the future to be the first resurrection.

sovereigngrace said:

Hades was emptied after the first resurrection. Jesus defeated sin, death, Hades and Satan through his first Advent. The dead in Christ now reign in heaven with Christ.

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"And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Where do you see a verse that says the saints
reign in heaven?

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom [under the whole heaven], shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

sovereigngrace said:

I see you are being selective in your quote. How about quoting the full verse instead of part of it? Heb 2:8: "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him."

There it is! He is the supreme power. He is the government. He carries all authority. Whilst new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise, Christ determines what He allows and what He doesn't. There is nothing that is not under Him. The world is NOT out of control. God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled, when God sees fit.

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This world is out of control because and to the extent that God is allowing it.

I never said that Christ does not have all the power to subdue an out-of-control world under His feet NOW. I never said that.

Again, it's manifest in the fact that Hebrews (scripture) explicitly states that we see not yet all things placed under His feet, and the kingdoms of this world are not yet become His kingdom, that though He already has the power, He has not yet taken His great power and reigned in full.

Not only is God still allowing challenges to the power and authority of Christ and still allowing man, in his rebellion against the authority of Christ, to spin out of control, but Satan will give the beast to be destroyed by Christ its power, throne and great authority.

The only way what you say can be true is if we are already living in the millennial reign of Christ and all things - Satan, the beast, false prophet, all false religions, etc etc etc have already been subdued under His feet - but Hebrews tells us we do not see it yet - and since we do not yet see it, it means it's still coming.

The Lord Jesus Christ has the power to defeat all enemies NOW, but God has preordained the way He will bring all prophecies and all promises to pass, and when He will do so. You guys (A-millennialists) are just jumping the gun.

sovereigngrace said:

As for the last 1/4 of the verse that you concentrate on, you are absolutely right "now we see not yet all things put under him." The fact is: there are still enemies to be born and subjugated. There are still leaders and kingdoms to fall. But the sovereign king reigns majestic, supreme and unchallenged in His power and authority, ruling over all creation (seen and unseen) and over all things (good and evil).

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Exactly. So you have no argument about we are living in the millennium because only Christ will be reigning in the millennium with all enemies under His feet except the last enemy - death (1 Corinthians 15). Your arguments contradict one another. It's because A-millennialists have jumped the gun.

sovereigngrace said:

Permitting evil and using it for His ultimate glory does not negate Christ's kingship or Him ruling in divine power.

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Exactly. Doesn't detract from the fact that He is still allowing it. Roll on the millennium when the beast and its false prophet will have been destroyed in the lake of fire by Christ, and the devil who gave that beast its power, seat and great authority is bound for a thousand years.

The rest of your post are just repeats of the same arguments in which you have contradicted yourself.

A king who has all authority in his kingdom may permit adversaries to continue to wreak havoc for a time. Doesn't mean the king has no power to put a stop to it when he chooses.

The Great King has been permitting Satan to wreak havoc in the world since he deceived Eve in the garden. Asking why He who has all authority in heaven and on earth and under the earth is still permitting man to rebel and wreak havoc is the same as asking why He did not bind Satan after the fall of Adam, or after Cain killed Abel, or after the flood, or after Israel conquered Canaan, or after Babylon was destroyed, or after Christ died and rose again and ascended into heaven and sat down on the throne of God, at the right hand of the Father, and all authority in heaven and on earth and under the earth was given to Him. .

We do not see all things placed under His feet yet. He has not bound Satan yet. He will not only bind Satan a thousand years but He will destroy him a thousand years after He returns and defeats and destroys the beast Satan gave its power, throne and great authority.

You're just jumping the gun and slicing a thousand years out of the Great King's pre-ordained plan.

This world is out of control because and to the extent that God is allowing it.

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Revelation 12:12 (KJV)
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Yes God has a plain, current he is building up
Zion[the church]. this plain mirrors the 7 days
of the week, 6 thousand years allotted for man to
beswayed by the devil, then a one thousand years
of Christ ruling the world from Jerusalem in the
middle east, when we receive are promised rest.

2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

ViaCrucis said:

The martyrs are alive with Christ in heaven,

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Your interpretation is then claiming that the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13 is already fulfilled and in the past.

and I saw the souls of them----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

Clearly, these are literally martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast, and that your interpretation is claiming that these very same martyrs, they are presently alive with Christ in heaven, even though the 42 month reign of the beast hasn't even happened yet. How can your interpretation possibly be correct if it is causing a contradiction in both Revelation 13 and Revelation 20:4?

Semper-Fi said:

"And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Where do you see a verse that says the saints
reign in heaven?

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom [under the whole heaven], shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

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Of course we will reign in the future on the new perfected earth. But the elect also reign now in life and afterwards in death. This is because we are now "in Christ." After we were spiritually resurrected we enter into our eternal reign in life on earth (in its yet imperfect sense) and in glory (in its more perfect sense). We now carry supernatural authority, dominion and power.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

We are positionally reigning now in life through Christ. Such was secured through Christ's victorious work at Calvary. There, Christ defeated every enemy of righteousness – including sin, death, the grave, hell, Satan, sickness, the demonic realm, and so on. The people of God, being “in Christ,” have therefore entered into that victory and have been given kingdom authority over the demonic realm through the blood of Jesus when moving in the Spirit and in the will of God. In fact, the word "shall" in the King James Version doesn't actually appear in the original but is added by the translators.

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven, saying, “they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth” (v. 9).

There is little doubt this scene is current and relates to a time-period preceding the second coming of the Lord. Moreover, no reasonable Bible student would surely deny that the reading relates to anything other than the redeemed situated in heaven. Here, the disembodied spirits of the elect in heaven are seen reigning as kings and priests now. Significantly, and like Revelation 20:4, the dead in Christ in heaven are described (in relation to their kingship and priesthood) as “hast made” – proving this is speaking of the current fulfilment of the same. The aorist active indicative demonstrates that this is ongoing in this intra-Advent period.

John sees those that have been saved in heaven and explains how they continue in their kingly/priestly position. Here we see the two spiritual offices that believers (dead or alive) exercise and enjoy “in Christ.” They are kings and priests. The humble servant-hood of the true believer and his self-sacrificing walk is connected to his priestly position, whereas his reigning in spiritual power and authority is related to his kingly office.

This dual role of kingship and priesthood is not just restricted to the redeemed in heaven, or does it commence at entry into the heavenly shore, it begins upon this earth at the new birth. The family of God today are positionally reigning as kings and priest in both heaven and on earth. They perform such an awesome function in and through the person of Christ and His impeccable life, His atoning death and victorious resurrection. In fact, 1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

We are kings and priests today. The demand of a priest was to make a sacrifice
and intercede for the people. We fulfill that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense. The responsibility of a king was to reign and exercise authority and power within the kingdom. We fulfill that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense.

We are presently a kingly priesthood. This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord.

Listen to what Paul teaches in Romans 8:16-17:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Being “joint-heirs with Christ” means that we enjoy the benefits and privileges of what He won for us through His sinless life, His atoning death, and His victorious resurrection. What is more, as "joint-heirs with Christ" we reign because He reigns.

When we put on Christ in salvation we entered into His kingdom and therefore came under His kingship, which resulted in us being placed in heavenly authority with kingly robes. The elect of God today “are ambassadors for Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:20). The reason being, “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

The Greek word for “heir” is kleronomos meaning ‘getting by apportionment’, it can be interpreted ‘an inheritor or a possessor’. This is what happens upon salvation, we were adopted into the family of God and became one with Christ, whereupon, through Christ, we assumed a heavenly inheritance.

God exercises divine power over all creation and He exercise His divine through His new creation. The people of God carry incredible authority of His children. They are on this earth to evade Satan’s territory, curtail his efforts, overcome his power and plunder his house,

Acts 17:28 tells us, “For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.” Through Christ – and what He has secured at Calvary – we now have our standing and inheritance. We possess a spiritual power within us from above since Pentecost that will assure us victory in the many spiritual challenges we face on this earth.

The New Testament respectfully states that we are what we are and we will be what we will be “through Christ” “in Christ” or “by Christ.” Ephesians 5:30 describes the spiritual oneness found in Christ: “For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.” Our “life is hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3). That means we “are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power” (Col 2:11).

Revelation 20:4 is a clear vivid picture of the saints in heaven reigning NOW – that why they are called “the souls.” Revelation 20:4 says: “Blessed and holy is he that hath part (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be (plural future middle indicative) priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign (plural future middle indicative) with him a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4).

Obviously, one has to experience their “part” in “the first resurrection” in order to be qualified to “reign.” That is like saying that those that get “saved” (present tense) will experience spiritual authority. Now that was not difficult to work out.

Thrones

(1) Everywhere the throne or thrones are mentioned in Revelation, it is always heaven. (Rev 1:4, 3:21, 6:16, 8:3, 12:5, 14:3, 5, 16:17, 19:4, 5, 20:4, 21:5, 22:1,3, read also the full chapters of Revelation 4, 6, 7)

(2) The throne or thrones in the Bible are ALWAYS in heaven.

Isaiah 66:1 says, “heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.” It is not the other way around like you would probably wish it said!!!

This truth is consistently and explicitly revealed throughout the pages of Holy Writ – Old and New. The throne of God has always been located in heaven; it is the place of Sovereign power and supreme authority. Psalm 11:4 expressly states, “The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.”

Psalm 103:19 declares, “The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.”

Our other main Old Testament passage Psalm 110:1 also confirms the heavenly location of God’s throne, when it says, “Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” The right hand of power always refers to the heavenly domain in Scripture. Romans 8:34 refers to the King/Priest outlined in Psalm 110, saying, “It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”

Hebrews 8:1 tells us that Christ “is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens.”

Colossians 3:1-2 admonishes us to take our eyes off the earthly, temporal physical and put it upon the heavenly, eternal and spiritual, saying, “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”

This teaching was verified by the Lord in His teaching, when He declared, whilst addressing the overall subject of oaths, “Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool” (Matthew 5:34-35). Christ, in addressing the matter was employing Isaiah 66:1 to confirm the location of His throne – heaven, and the area of His footstool – earth.

Semper-Fi said:

Revelation 12:12 (KJV)
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Yes God has a plain, current he is building up
Zion[the church]. this plain mirrors the 7 days
of the week, 6 thousand years allotted for man to
beswayed by the devil, then a one thousand years
of Christ ruling the world from Jerusalem in the
middle east, when we receive are promised rest.

2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Click to expand...

I liked your post, but I don't know the specifics. I don't know whether Christ will remain on His throne in heaven and rule the earth through His resurrected saints on earth. I agree that the millennium mirrors the 7th day and I have a feeling but no proof that the sevens (of years and Jubilees) are still being counted by God until they have reached, in the fullness of time, their preordained end (goal) at the close of the millennium.