THE SABBATH TRUTH!

Cribstyl · Jun 15, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Well you would have to disagree with all the old and new testament scriptures and JESUS and the APOSTLES to try and claim that Paul is telling everyone to desert the 10 commandments David. That idea simply goes against the teachings of JESUS and all the Apostles and makes Paul contradict himself.

LoveGodsWord said:
Your ignoring the context of ROMANS 7:6. We have been released from the penalty of God's Law being dead to that which has bound us which is sin (breaking God's law).

LGW, as usual you try to nullify, invalidate and undermine the posts of others and try to elevate yourself as a teacher of God's word. You always have a lot to say even about simple issues. Why site The Old and New Testament, Jesus and the 12 apostles when the subject was 1 verse from Paul?
It's KD's burden is to prove that Paul is telling people to "desert the law". True or False?
Can he do it in one text or not?
He posted Rom 7:6
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Here is why I agree with him.
It takes some wisdom to know that Rom 7:1-6 is an isolated subject from the rest of the chapter.
It's talking about a divorce from the Old Covenant which is THE LAW and remarriage to the New Covenant which is FAITH IN CHRIST.
The rest of the chapter is about Paul's personal testimony with sin and the law.

Commenting on KD's text Rom 7:6 (in blue below)
a) What part of "But now we are delivered from the law" means we're still under the law?
b) What are we delivered from? THE LAW (LGW, your doctrines give you no choice but to edit Paul and say "We have been released from the penalty of God's Law being dead to that which has bound us which is sin (breaking God's law.") Sorry LGW, that's not what Paul says here in Rom 7:6. he says we're released from the law.
The context is Paul explaining a marriage that ends in divorce. (Rom 7:1-3) Why? Because when someone dies the marriage covenant ends. "That being dead wherein we were held" is a direct reference to Rom 7:4 saying; ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;
c) What are we dead to? THE LAW. Why? one party in the marriage died.
d) What were we held by? We were held by what we were released from, THE LAW.
e) Who died? Christ died, and we become dead by faith and are also raised up with Christ by faith.
that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
f) That we should serve God in relationship with Christ and not serve the law or serve God in relationship to the law.

LGW, your addition comments hijacks the dialog for your agenda about staying married to the law.

Please see ROMANS 6:1-23.

ROMANS 7:5-7 [5], FOR WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH, THE MOTIONS OF SINS, WHICH WERE BY THE LAW, DID WORK IN OUR MEMBERS TO BRING FORTH FRUIT TO DEATH. [6], But now we are delivered from the law (penalty is death), that being dead WHEREIN WE WERE HELD; THAT WE SHOULD SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER. [7], WHAT SHALL WE SAY THEN? IS THE LAW SIN? GOD FORBID. NO, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

The purpose of God’s ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) in both the OLD and NEW COVENANTS are to give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. They do not make anyone perfect. God’s eternal law shows us that we are all sinners and condemns us for sin (death) and shows us our need of a Savior and lead us to Christ that we might be FORGIVEN through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25. If we have REPENTED from our sins and CONFESSED them to JESUS he is faithful and just to forgive us from our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness * ACTS 2:38; 3:19; 8:22; MATTHEW 3:2; 4:17; Mark 1:15; 6:2; Luke 13:3-5; PROVERBS 28:9-13; ROMANS 6:1-23; 1 JOHN 1:9; PROVERBS 28:9-13 and we are no longer “UNDER THE LAW” condemned before God of sin *ROMANS 8:1-4. However, if we are continuing in known unrepentant sin then we are still “UNDER THE LAW” condemned before God of sin *ROMANS 3:19-20 and need to seek him in repentance, confession for your sins and faith in his WORD *JOHN 3:15-21

As posted earlier, no one loves JESUS if they knowingly break his commandments *JOHN 14:15. The same as no one loves their neighbore if they knowingly lie, steal, murder and commit adultery with their spouse etc etc *ROMANS 13:8-10. The same as no one loves God if they knowingly make idols in their lives and bow down to worship them, use God's name in vain and break his Sabbath commandment *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:6-10. According to the scriptures in the new covenant Gentiles are grafted in to God's ISRAEL. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL then you have no part in God's new covenant promise of a new heart *HEBREWS 8:10-12 and to be born again *JOHN 3:3-7; 1 JOHN 3:6-9 to love *1 JOHN 5:2-3; 2 JOHN 1:6 which is Gods' work *PHILIPPIANS 2:13 in those who believe his Word *1 PETER 1:23; 1 JOHN 5:4 .

Sorry dear friend, it seems God's Word disagrees with you. As Paul says "DO WE THEN MAKE VOID (abolish) THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID WE ESTABLSH THE LAW" - ROMANS 3:31.

Paul is not teaching what you are here David neither is JESUS or the APOSTLES.

Scropture support here linked
More scripture support here linked

Hope this helps dear friend

Like I said, you rejected KD's post for your agenda above, and he was on point about about deserting the old spouse for the new.
Hope this helps.

klutedavid · Jun 15, 2020

Cribstyl said:
LGW, as usual you try to nullify, invalidate and undermine the posts of others and try to elevate yourself as a teacher of God's word. You always have a lot to say even about simple issues. Why site The Old and New Testament, Jesus and the 12 apostles when the subject was 1 verse from Paul?
It's KD's burden is to prove that Paul is telling people to "desert the law". True or False?
Can he do it in one text or not?
He posted Rom 7:6
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Here is why I agree with him.
It takes some wisdom to know that Rom 7:1-6 is an isolated subject from the rest of the chapter.
It's talking about a divorce from the Old Covenant which is THE LAW and remarriage to the New Covenant which is FAITH IN CHRIST.
The rest of the chapter is about Paul's personal testimony with sin and the law.

Commenting on KD's text Rom 7:6 (in blue below)
a) What part of "But now we are delivered from the law" means we're still under the law?
b) What are we delivered from? THE LAW (LGW, your doctrines give you no choice but to edit Paul and say "We have been released from the penalty of God's Law being dead to that which has bound us which is sin (breaking God's law.") Sorry LGW, that's not what Paul says here in Rom 7:6. he says we're released from the law.
The context is Paul explaining a marriage that ends in divorce. (Rom 7:1-3) Why? Because when someone dies the marriage covenant ends. "That being dead wherein we were held" is a direct reference to Rom 7:4 saying; ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;
c) What are we dead to? THE LAW. Why? one party in the marriage died.
d) What were we held by? We were held by what we were released from, THE LAW.
e) Who died? Christ died, and we become dead by faith and are also raised up with Christ by faith.
that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
f) That we should serve God in relationship with Christ and not serve the law or serve God in relationship to the law.

LGW, your addition comments hijacks the dialog for your agenda about staying married to the law.
Like I said, you rejected KD's post for your agenda above, and he was on point about about deserting the old spouse for the new.
Hope this helps.

Very well written and you are very strong in that letter to the Romans.

klutedavid · Jun 15, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Dear David, this is only sent in love and has a help to you.

There is nowhere in the scriptures that teach God's law is abolished. God's law is the very standard of GOOD AND EVL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172 and if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. I would like to show where your whole argument and premise falls over in your post here. I hope you can receive it in the Spirit in which it is given and this correction may be a help to you...

No one is "UNDER THE LAW" unless they stand before God guilty of breaking the law (SIN). For by the law is the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20. For example, not being "UNDER THE LAW" in ROMANS 3:19 is in regards to not being under the penalty of God's law (death) because of sin.

Let's look at the contexts from v8-18 These scriptures show the context...

ROMANS 3:9-18
[9], What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for WE HAVE BEFORE PROVED BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN;
[10], AS IT IS WRITTEN, THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE:
]11], There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
[12], They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.
[13], Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14], Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15], Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16], Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17], And the way of peace have they not known:
[18], There is no fear of God before their eyes.

The context of v19-20 is that we are all sinners none are rightoues no not one v9 ALL ARE UNDER SIN, all have broken God's LAW because sin is breaking God's LAW (1 John 3:4; James 2:11; Romans 7:7)

ROMANS 3:19-20
[19], Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are UNDER THE LAW: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Now v19, in connection with the Context of v9-18 us summing up what has been previously said saying that those who are "UNDER THE LAW" are those who are GUILTY BEFORE GOD of breaking the LAW v9 confirms this saying both JEWS and GENTILES are ALL UNDER SIN, which means we are all GUILTY before GOD of breaking God's LAW.v 19

[20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Now how is all this so? WHY? PAUL is saying in v20 FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is.

So YEP... to be "UNDER THE LAW" in ROMANS 3:19-20 means to be GUILTY BEFORE GOD of breaking it and both JEW and GENTILE are guilty before GOD and need a Saviour.

No one is "UNDER THE LAW" David, if they have repented from their sins and confessed them to God. To be "UNDER THE LAW" means to be under the laws condemnation because of sin (breaking God's law). We are only "UNDER THE LAW" if we stand before God guilty of knowingly breaking the law *JAMES 4:17; ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 17:30-31.

This is why it is written in the same book further on...

ROMANS 8:1-4 [1], THERE IS THEREFORE NOW NO CONDEMNATION TO THEM WHICH ARE IN CHRIST JESUS WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT. [2], FOR THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS HAS MADE ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH (Carnal mind) BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT (Word of God)

No where dear friend does it teach in the bible that God's law is not the standard of right and wrong. Your leaving context again David.

May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed dear friend.

You have been taught that mankind has always had the ten commandments, the law.

You have also been taught that sin is transgression of the law.

So how do you explain the following verse.

Romans 2:12
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.

It seems clear that sin exists outside of the law (sinned without the law).

LoveGodsWord · Jun 15, 2020

Cribstyl said:
LGW, as usual you try to nullify, invalidate and undermine the posts of others and try to elevate yourself as a teacher of God's word. You always have a lot to say even about simple issues. Why site The Old and New Testament, Jesus and the 12 apostles when the subject was 1 verse from Paul?
It's KD's burden is to prove that Paul is telling people to "desert the law". True or False?
Can he do it in one text or not?
He posted Rom 7:6
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Here is why I agree with him.
It takes some wisdom to know that Rom 7:1-6 is an isolated subject from the rest of the chapter.
It's talking about a divorce from the Old Covenant which is THE LAW and remarriage to the New Covenant which is FAITH IN CHRIST.
The rest of the chapter is about Paul's personal testimony with sin and the law.

Commenting on KD's text Rom 7:6 (in blue below)
a) What part of "But now we are delivered from the law" means we're still under the law?
b) What are we delivered from? THE LAW (LGW, your doctrines give you no choice but to edit Paul and say "We have been released from the penalty of God's Law being dead to that which has bound us which is sin (breaking God's law.") Sorry LGW, that's not what Paul says here in Rom 7:6. he says we're released from the law.
The context is Paul explaining a marriage that ends in divorce. (Rom 7:1-3) Why? Because when someone dies the marriage covenant ends. "That being dead wherein we were held" is a direct reference to Rom 7:4 saying; ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;
c) What are we dead to? THE LAW. Why? one party in the marriage died.
d) What were we held by? We were held by what we were released from, THE LAW.
e) Who died? Christ died, and we become dead by faith and are also raised up with Christ by faith.
that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
f) That we should serve God in relationship with Christ and not serve the law or serve God in relationship to the law.

LGW, your addition comments hijacks the dialog for your agenda about staying married to the law.
Like I said, you rejected KD's post for your agenda above, and he was on point about about deserting the old spouse for the new.
Hope this helps.

Hello dear friend. You are mistaken. I have no agenda accept to share God's Word and pray that everyone will hear His Words which are not my words and be in God's kingdom. I do not need to be here. I am here because I love my fellow man and because of my duty of love to God and man. Nothing more and nothing less. My words are not my own but his words that sent me. I speak not of myself but the Words that God has given me. Freely I have given because freely I have received.

There is no scripture anywhere in Gods' Word that says that Gods 10 commandments are abolished. You would have to disagree with all the old and new testament scriptures and JESUS and the APOSTLES to try and claim that Paul is telling everyone in one scripture divorced of context to desert the 10 commandments. That idea simply goes against the teachings of JESUS and all the Apostles and makes Paul contradict himself.

The context of ROMANS 7:6 is important. We have been released from the penalty of God's Law being dead to that which has bound us which is sin (breaking God's law). Please see ROMANS 6:1-23 for the complete context.

ROMANS 7:5-7 [5], FOR WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH, THE MOTIONS OF SINS, WHICH WERE BY THE LAW, DID WORK IN OUR MEMBERS TO BRING FORTH FRUIT TO DEATH. [6], But now we are delivered from the law (penalty is death), that being dead WHEREIN WE WERE HELD; THAT WE SHOULD SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER. [7], WHAT SHALL WE SAY THEN? IS THE LAW SIN? GOD FORBID. NO, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

As posted elsewhere , the purpose of God’s ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) in both the OLD and NEW COVENANTS are to give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. They do not make anyone perfect. God’s eternal law shows us that we are all sinners and condemns us for sin for which the wages are death and shows us our need of a Savior to lead us to Christ that we might be FORGIVEN through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25.

If we have REPENTED from our sins and CONFESSED them to JESUS he is faithful and just to forgive us from our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness * ACTS 2:38; 3:19; 8:22; MATTHEW 3:2; 4:17; Mark 1:15; 6:2; Luke 13:3-5; PROVERBS 28:9-13; ROMANS 6:1-23; 1 JOHN 1:9; PROVERBS 28:9-13 and we are no longer “UNDER THE LAW” condemned before God of sin *ROMANS 8:1-4. However, if we are continuing in known unrepentant sin then we are still “UNDER THE LAW” condemned before God of sin *ROMANS 3:19-20 and need to seek him in repentance, confession for your sins and faith in his WORD *JOHN 3:15-21

As posted earlier, no one loves JESUS if they knowingly break his commandments *JOHN 14:15. The same as no one loves their neighbore if they knowingly lie, steal, murder and commit adultery with their spouse etc etc *ROMANS 13:8-10. The same as no one loves God if they knowingly make idols in their lives and bow down to worship them, use God's name in vain and break his Sabbath commandment *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:6-10. According to the scriptures in the new covenant Gentiles are grafted in to God's ISRAEL. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL then you have no part in God's new covenant promise of a new heart *HEBREWS 8:10-12 and to be born again *JOHN 3:3-7; 1 JOHN 3:6-9 to love *1 JOHN 5:2-3; 2 JOHN 1:6 which is Gods' work *PHILIPPIANS 2:13 in those who believe his Word *1 PETER 1:23; 1 JOHN 5:4 .

Sorry dear friend, it seems God's Word disagrees with you and your friend. As Paul says "DO WE THEN MAKE VOID (abolish) THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID WE ESTABLSH THE LAW" - ROMANS 3:31.

Paul is not teaching what you and your friend is teachings cribstyl neither does JESUS or the APOSTLES.

Your mistaken if you believe we become dead to the law so that we may be free to break it. ROMANS 8:13 says if we live after the flesh we will die, just as ROMANS 6:33, HEBREWS 10:26-27. Those who are born again do not practice sin (breaking anyone of God's commandments). JESUS came to save us from sin and to free us from the power of sin *JOHN 8:31-36; ROMANS 6:1-23; ROMANS 8:1-4; 1 JOHN 3:6-9. Anyone who continues in known unrepentant sin according to the scriptures will die *HEBREWS 10:26-31; ROMANS 8:13; ROMANS 6:23. JESUS came to save us from sin not so we can continue to sin.

What your promoting disagress with the rest of the bible and is not biblical (see 1 JOHN 2:3-4; REVELATION 12:17; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14; 1 JOHN 3:4-9.

Further scripture support here linked
More scripture support here linked

Hope this helps dear friend

LoveGodsWord · Jun 15, 2020

klutedavid said:
You have been taught that mankind has always had the ten commandments, the law.

You have also been taught that sin is transgression of the law.

So how do you explain the following verse.

Romans 2:12
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.

It seems clear that sin exists outside of the law (sinned without the law).

Before the WRITTEN WORD of GOD there was the SPOKEN WORD of GOD * GENESIS 3:1-3; 9; 11-19 8:15; 9:8; 24:7; 31:11 etc and Gods people have always had God's laws all through time *GENESIS 26:5. Not all people will accept God and his law as shown in ROMANS 2:12.

What have you shared here dear friend in this thread? You try to promote Gods eternal law (10 commandments) is abolished when JESUS says in his own words "think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets..." MATTHEW 5:17-20.

If there is no law dear friend, we have no knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20. If there is no knowledge of what sin is no one knows that they are sinners in need of a Saviour. If we do not know we are sinners in need of a Saviour we have no Saviour. If we have no Saviour then we are lost and still in our sins and if we are lost and still in our sins we have no salvation.

Can you see where this line of thinking leads dear friend? Your teachings disagree with the old and new testament scriptures and are not biblical. There is no Grace without God's law as it is the law that leads us to God's Grace in Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 5:22. What do you think is the meaning of MATTHEW 9:12-13? No one is UNDER THE LAW unless they stand before God condemned and guilty of breaking the law *ROMANS 3:19. Something to pray about dear friend.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

klutedavid · Jun 15, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Before the WRITTEN WORD of GOD there was the SPOKEN WORD of GOD * GENESIS 3:1-3; 9; 11-19 8:15; 9:8; 24:7; 31:11 etc and Gods people have always had God's laws all through time *GENESIS 26:5. Not all people will accept God and his law as shown in ROMANS 2:12. What have you shared here dear friend? Gods eternal law (10 commandments) are abolished? If there is no law there is no knowledge of what sin is. Your teachings disagree with the old and new testament scriptures and are not biblical.

You missed the point.

They sinned without the law!

That means that never had the law, God's law, or God's spoken law.

Your theology cannot explain how people can sin, without the law.

Romans chapter three explains this sin without the law.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 15, 2020

klutedavid said:
You missed the point.
They sinned without the law!
That means that never had the law, God's law, or God's spoken law.
Your theology cannot explain how people can sin, without the law.
Romans chapter three explains this sin without the law.

Nonsense. One sins without the law by being an unbeleiver (no Word and no law). Those who are not Gods people do not have Gods' laws or his Word.

ROMANS 2:12-13 [12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

The wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son and continue in known unrepentant sin when they have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word and reject it *HEBREWS 10:26-31.

Hope this helps.

Andre_b · Jun 15, 2020

klutedavid said:
Of course they rested on the sabbath because they were under the law. They were Jews living in Jerusalem. If they labored on the Sabbath day they would be stoned to death.

Jesus has not risen yet and the apostles are firmly obedient to the whole law. Any serious breach of the law is death.

Your argument is meaningless.

Sorry, wrong again. They were now under the new covenant. You made up your own law just now. No where in the text does it say "they rested according to the law of the Jews". They rested according to the commandment friend and you have just done a false witness directly changing what Luke said. Again, like I told you before Luke WOULD HAVE CLARIFIED that they were doing it for the law of the Jews, they would have never called it resting either if it wasn't needed, nor would they have recorded something that is no longer required or important, if that would have been he case. Again, if it was no longer required it would have been directly in the text saying so, or else this would cause confusion, it would have said old commandment or old covenant.

Daniel did not bow to king Nebuchadnezzar's statue OUTSIDE OF THE JEWISH LAND because he was keeping God's commandments, NOT THE LAWS OF THE LAND BECAUSE IT IS IN CONTRADICTION TO THE COMMANDMENTS. The apostles were doing the same, however, that commandment is simply the same as the Jews, just like the other 9.

klutedavid · Jun 15, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Nonsense. One sins without the law by being an unbeleiver (no Word and no law). Those who are not Gods people do not have Gods' laws or his Word.

ROMANS 2:12-13 [12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

The wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son and continue in known unrepentant sin when they have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word and reject it *HEBREWS 10:26-31.

Hope this helps.

Your trying to tell me that the Romans that controlled Israel, at the time of Jesus. Had the ten commandments or knew of them, but refused to obey them?

The Romans had no history of ever knowing the ten commandments or even the Hebrew God. They had their own Gods and their own law system.

klutedavid · Jun 15, 2020

Andre_b said:
Sorry, wrong again. They were now under the new covenant. You made up your own law just now. No where in the text does it say "they rested according to the law of the Jews". They rested according to the commandment friend and you have just done a false witness directly changing what Luke said. Again, like I told you before Luke WOULD HAVE CLARIFIED that they were doing it for the law of the Jews, they would have never called it resting either if it wasn't needed, nor would they have recorded something that is no longer required or important, if that would have been he case. Again, if it was no longer required it would have been directly in the text saying so, or else this would cause confusion, it would have said old commandment or old covenant.

Daniel did not bow to king Nebuchadnezzar's statue OUTSIDE OF THE JEWISH LAND because he was keeping God's commandments, NOT THE LAWS OF THE LAND BECAUSE IT IS IN CONTRADICTION TO THE COMMANDMENTS. The apostles were doing the same, however, that commandment is simply the same as the Jews, just like the other 9.

The commandments are called the law.

Romans 7:1-2
Or do you not know, brethren for I am speaking to those who know the law, that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. (the law; adultery)

The apostles did not understand the new covenant or even that Jesus would rise from the tomb. They obeyed the law for some time after Jesus rose.

Your understanding of the scripture is distorted and weak.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 15, 2020

klutedavid said:
Your trying to tell me that the Romans that controlled Israel, at the time of Jesus. Had the ten commandments or knew of them, but refused to obey them?

The Romans had no history of ever knowing the ten commandments or even the Hebrew God. They had their own Gods and their own law system.

No dear friend. The book of Romans was written to Gentile believers. New believers learned the Word of God from Paul and the Apostles as well as the synagogues on the Sabbath *ACTS 15:21. Why do you think Paul is teaching them about the law and sin in ROMANS 2 to ROMANS 8?

Andre_b · Jun 15, 2020

klutedavid said:
The commandments are called the law.

Romans 7:1-2
Or do you not know, brethren for I am speaking to those who know the law, that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. (the law; adultery)

The apostles did not understand the new covenant or even that Jesus would rise from the tomb. They obeyed the law for some time after Jesus rose.

Your understanding of the scripture is distorted and weak.

Luke wrote this 20-40 YEARS LATER and would have clarified why this was wrong and would never have called it according to the commandment if it wasn't part of the new covenant like I said. You haven't refuted anything and you are inventing something to try to justify your point which is 100% null and void. Even if they didn't understand the resurrection at that point, all the gospel writers CLEARLY EXPLAINED THAT THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND AT THE TIME. YET NO WORD ABOUT THE SABBATH COMMANDMENT. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY IT IS INCLUDED IN THE NEW COVENANT.

Your argument is very weak. The ten commandments can be referred to as law as well. But it's always in context of the situation, most of the time it's commandments. The situation of the husband is a terrible example as the woman is still obliged to not commit adultery even if she is not married. Adultery is fornication outside of marriage.

klutedavid · Jun 15, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
No sear friend. The book of Romans was written to Gentile believers. New believers learned the Word of God from Paul and the Apostles as well as the synagogues on the Sabbath *ACTS 15:21. Why do you think Paul is teaching them about the law and sin in ROMANS 2 to ROMANS 8?

You do not understand the letter to the Romans.

Paul is addressing the Jews in the Gentile, Roman church.

Romans 2:23-24
You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of YOU (the Jews)!

klutedavid · Jun 15, 2020

Andre_b said:
Luke wrote this 20-40 YEARS LATER and would have clarified why this was wrong and would never have called it according to the commandment if it wasn't part of the new covenant like I said. You haven't refuted anything and you are inventing something to try to justify your point which is 100% null and void. Even if they didn't understand the resurrection at that point, all the gospel writers CLEARLY EXPLAINED THAT THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND AT THE TIME. YET NO WORD ABOUT THE SABBATH COMMANDMENT. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY IT IS INCLUDED IN THE NEW COVENANT.

Your argument is very weak. The ten commandments can be referred to as law as well. But it's always in context of the situation, most of the time it's commandments. The situation of the husband is a terrible example as the woman is still obliged to not commit adultery even if she is not married. Adultery is fornication outside of marriage.

The commandments exist within the law of Moses. There are also other commandments in the law besides the ten words.

My argument is fully supported by the scripture.

Romans 7:7
...for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Luke was recording what he was told by the eye witnesses. Luke's account is not a theology but a record of the life of Jesus.

Before Jesus rose the apostles knew nothing about the new covenant or it's implications.

Andre_b · Jun 15, 2020

klutedavid said:
The commandments exist within the law of Moses. There are also other commandments in the law besides the ten words.

My argument is fully supported by the scripture.

Romans 7:7
...for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Luke was recording what he was told by the eye witnesses. Luke's account is not a theology but a record of the life of Jesus.

Before Jesus rose the apostles knew nothing about the new covenant or it's implications.

Even if they didn't know fully the new covenant. Luke recorded it as according to the commandment which shows it is part of the new covenant. If it was according to the Old Covenant he would have said it was. You say it has nothing to do with theology yet you put your own theology in that it was part of the old covenant and that they'd didn't know this yet Luke recorded it decades later and recorded it according to the commandment. He would have said otherwise just like they explained how they didn't understand the resurrection until he appeared to them and spoke about it. It was recorded in the gospels. Unlike he Sabbath wasn't recorded as anything wrong or old covenant which Luke would have recorded it for historical accuracy.

Why would you quote another verse about the Law WHEN I AGREED WITH YOU THAT THE LAW IS SOMETIMES USED TO REFER TO COMMANDMENTS...

klutedavid · Jun 15, 2020

Andre_b said:
Even if they didn't know fully the new covenant. Luke recorded it as according to the commandment which shows it is part of the new covenant. If it was according to the Old Covenant he would have said it was. You say it has nothing to do with theology yet you put your own theology in that it was part of the old covenant and that they'd didn't know this yet Luke recorded it decades later and recorded it according to the commandment. He would have said otherwise just like they explained how they didn't understand the resurrection until he appeared to them and spoke about it. It was recorded in the gospels. Unlike he Sabbath wasn't recorded as anything wrong or old covenant which Luke would have recorded it for historical accuracy.

Why would you quote another verse about the Law WHEN I AGREED WITH YOU THAT THE LAW IS SOMETIMES USED TO REFER TO COMMANDMENTS...

Because it is extremely important to understand what the phrase, 'the law', means in the New Testament.

If you interpret this phrase, 'the law', every time it occurs in the N.T, then you will understand the scripture differently to someone else.

Here is an example for you.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

I will read that occurrence of 'the law' as the entire law of Moses. Where as you will see the word 'ceremonial law'. Your just seeing every law except the ten commandments.

Even though you readily admit that adultery or coveting is the law.

That small interpretation of a word or phase will alter everything, and the very doctrine of the New Testament.

Andre_b · Jun 15, 2020

klutedavid said:
Because it is extremely important to understand what the phrase, 'the law', means in the New Testament.

If you interpret this phrase, 'the law', every time it occurs in the N.T, then you will understand the scripture differently to someone else.

Here is an example for you.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

I will read that occurrence of 'the law' as the entire law of Moses. Where as you will see the word 'ceremonial law'. Your just seeing every law except the ten commandments.

Even though you readily admit that adultery or coveting is the law.

That small interpretation of a word or phase will alter everything, and the very doctrine of the New Testament.

Again it's all about context. Like I told you before.

Yet you ignore "they rested on the Sabbath ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT", shows that it's indeed something you do to love God. Just like John and Jesus keep repeating if you love me keep my commandments. Yet you ignore this because you aren't under ANY law according to you.

Also, being not under the law has nothing to do with keeping to law out of loving God and neighbour. You on the other hand use the word grace and make the law useless by assuming "not under the law" means you do nothing to follow the Holy Spirit and God's ways. You are claiming lawlessness when you do this. But then hypocritically start claiming other laws are to be followed.

Wearing 2 different materials has nothing to do with loving God or your neighbour. Colossians used the word ordinances to explain this.

Colossians 2:14 “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances [dogmah].”

Strong’s Definition: G1378 dogma, pronounced dog'-mah.
From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.

The Strong’s dictionary states that it can be a type of law but what type? Does it say that it is the Ten Commandment law or God’s law? No it does not. It says that it can be a “civil law,” “ceremonial law” or “ecclesiastical law” and a decree or ordinance.

When ones studies the context of this passage, it becomes clear that it is the “ordinances” which is also known as the ceremonial law (a phrase used by many famous theologians but does not occur in scripture) being the sacrificial part of the “Law of Moses” which is also known as the “Mosaic Law.”

For further clarity, what is the basic definition from the Thayer dictionary?

Thayer Definition: G1378 dogma
1) Doctrine, decree, ordinance
2) The rules and requirements of the Law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
3) Of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

Some things were part of the nation of Israel and CIVIL laws to make them DIFFERENT FROM ALL OTHER NATIONS AND SEPARATE. There's a reason why it is called the law of Moses and NOT the law of God.

The commandments existed BEFORE SINAI hence why God was angry that the Israelites were breaking them constantly when he asked them to obey. God also said it because they didn't listen to the instructions about the Sabbath in Exodus 16

"And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?"

Cribstyl · Jun 15, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello dear friend. You are mistaken. I have no agenda accept to share God's Word and pray that everyone will hear His Words which are not my words and be in God's kingdom.

Well dear friend, "Welcome to Club-share-His Word", because that's what this forum is all about.
You do always have more to say than His word. No need to cite 5 different books of the bible and add links to your extensive posts, when explaining 1 verse can clarify an issue.

I do not need to be here. I am here because I love my fellow man and because of my duty of love to God and man. Nothing more and nothing less. My words are not my own but his words that sent me. I speak not of myself but the Words that God has given me. Freely I have given because freely I have received.

Sincerely LGW, we're glad you're here. Thank you for being here. You're a very friendly and respectful person most of the time. (me?? not so much)
It's not just my opinion but, your words are your own.
You do add, subtract and ignore words from the bible and even tamper with definitions to suit your agenda.

There is no scripture anywhere in Gods' Word that says that Gods 10 commandments are abolished. You would have to disagree with all the old and new testament scriptures and JESUS and the APOSTLES to try and claim that Paul is telling everyone in one scripture divorced of context to desert the 10 commandments. That idea simply goes against the teachings of JESUS and all the Apostles and makes Paul contradict himself.

See what I'm talking about???.... These are some strong words above in Red, and I disagree with you. Your apparent agenda is to teach us that we ARE under the ten commandments.
Your blanket statements often control and baits all discussions you're in.

When you are confronted about your words, you hide behind multiple quotes of scripture and you even create links to your other long, long, long sermons.

What does the scriptures say is abolished?
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
LGW, we should examine what scriptures say is abolished, but later. I cant handle multiple issues at one time, so let's make that our next dialog after Romans 7:6.

Allow me to post between your words ( in orange below)

The context of ROMANS 7:6 is important. (TRUE, but Rom 7:1-6 is a complete context.) We have been released from the penalty of God's Law (False, that's not what Paul said. You're adding to the scripture) being dead to that which has bound us which is sin (breaking God's law). (False again, Paul just explained in Rom 7:4 that what bounded us is what we're released from. THE LAW)

Again, that's you adding to the word of God. Rom 7:6 does not say "released from the penalty of God's law" it says "released from God's law". You can't handle the truth, so you changed Paul's narrative.

Please see ROMANS 6:1-23 for the complete context.

I agree that Rom 6 is relative to Rom 7 but after reading also Rom 5 it's all relative. If context is based on circumstances, Rom 6 talks about sin 18 times and posted below is the only 2 mentions of the law. It's says we're not under the law.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(Rom 7 references the law 21 times). My argument is Rom 7: 1-6 is a complete context.

ROMANS 7:5-7 [5], FOR WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH, THE MOTIONS OF SINS, WHICH WERE BY THE LAW, DID WORK IN OUR MEMBERS TO BRING FORTH FRUIT TO DEATH. [6], But now we are delivered from the law (penalty is death), that being dead WHEREIN WE WERE HELD; THAT WE SHOULD SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER. [7], WHAT SHALL WE SAY THEN? IS THE LAW SIN? GOD FORBID. NO, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

As posted elsewhere , the purpose of God’s ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) in both the OLD and NEW COVENANTS are to give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. They do not make anyone perfect. God’s eternal law shows us that we are all sinners and condemns us for sin for which the wages are death and shows us our need of a Savior to lead us to Christ that we might be FORGIVEN through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25.

If we have REPENTED from our sins and CONFESSED them to JESUS he is faithful and just to forgive us from our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness * ACTS 2:38; 3:19; 8:22; MATTHEW 3:2; 4:17; Mark 1:15; 6:2; Luke 13:3-5; PROVERBS 28:9-13; ROMANS 6:1-23; 1 JOHN 1:9; PROVERBS 28:9-13 and we are no longer “UNDER THE LAW” condemned before God of sin *ROMANS 8:1-4. However, if we are continuing in known unrepentant sin then we are still “UNDER THE LAW” condemned before God of sin *ROMANS 3:19-20 and need to seek him in repentance, confession for your sins and faith in his WORD *JOHN 3:15-21

As posted earlier, no one loves JESUS if they knowingly break his commandments *JOHN 14:15. The same as no one loves their neighbore if they knowingly lie, steal, murder and commit adultery with their spouse etc etc *ROMANS 13:8-10. The same as no one loves God if they knowingly make idols in their lives and bow down to worship them, use God's name in vain and break his Sabbath commandment *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:6-10. According to the scriptures in the new covenant Gentiles are grafted in to God's ISRAEL. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL then you have no part in God's new covenant promise of a new heart *HEBREWS 8:10-12 and to be born again *JOHN 3:3-7; 1 JOHN 3:6-9 to love *1 JOHN 5:2-3; 2 JOHN 1:6 which is Gods' work *PHILIPPIANS 2:13 in those who believe his Word *1 PETER 1:23; 1 JOHN 5:4 .

Sorry dear friend, it seems God's Word disagrees with you and your friend. As Paul says "DO WE THEN MAKE VOID (abolish) THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID WE ESTABLSH THE LAW" - ROMANS 3:31.

Paul is not teaching what you and your friend is teachings cribstyl neither does JESUS or the APOSTLES.

Your mistaken if you believe we become dead to the law so that we may be free to break it. ROMANS 8:13 says if we live after the flesh we will die, just as ROMANS 6:33, HEBREWS 10:26-27. Those who are born again do not practice sin (breaking anyone of God's commandments). JESUS came to save us from sin and to free us from the power of sin *JOHN 8:31-36; ROMANS 6:1-23; ROMANS 8:1-4; 1 JOHN 3:6-9. Anyone who continues in known unrepentant sin according to the scriptures will die *HEBREWS 10:26-31; ROMANS 8:13; ROMANS 6:23. JESUS came to save us from sin not so we can continue to sin.

What your promoting disagress with the rest of the bible and is not biblical (see 1 JOHN 2:3-4; REVELATION 12:17; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14; 1 JOHN 3:4-9.

Further scripture support here linked
More scripture support here linked

Hope this helps dear friend

Included in all that rambling, you are the one contradicting Paul because he in wrote Rom 7:6 we're delivered from the law. Then you're saying if we believe what Paul said we believe we can break the law.
Hope this helps

klutedavid · Jun 15, 2020

Andre_b said:
Again it's all about context. Like I told you before.

I agree with you on that. But you interpret phrases such as 'the law' which contradicts the context.

Yet you ignore "they rested on the Sabbath ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT", shows that it's indeed something you do to love God.

I don't ignore the statement about the Sabbath in the scripture.

None of the following have anything to do with loving God.

I am not circumcised, so I am not under the law.
I will not sacrifice an oxen for my sin.
I disregard the health laws.
I ignore the civil law.
I ignore all of the moral law also.
I will not go to the temple.
I disregard the Levite priests and the Pharisees.

See how thorough I am in annulling the old covenant.
I only follow the law of Christ.

The law of Christ you say?

Yes, that's right.

Just like John and Jesus keep repeating if you love me keep my commandments. Yet you ignore this because you aren't under ANY law according to you.

If you quote John and his reference to the commandments. Be sure to observe the context of one John and quote.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

1 John 4:21
And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

Pretty good at quoting within the context of 1 John.

Also, being not under the law has nothing to do with keeping to law out of loving God and neighbour.

You are either under the law or you are not under the law. If you believe that transgressing any law means, separation from Jesus, then you are under the law. The law must be obeyed!

You on the other hand use the word grace and make the law useless by assuming "not under the law" means you do nothing to follow the Holy Spirit and God's ways.

I already mentioned I am under the law of Christ, the law of Liberty.

You are claiming lawlessness when you do this. But then hypocritically start claiming other laws are to be followed.

Love fulfills the law, love is the foundation of all law.

Believe me when I say, not coveting your neighbors oxen, has nothing to with love.

Wearing 2 different materials has nothing to do with loving God or your neighbour. Colossians used the word ordinances to explain this.

Colossians 2:14 “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances [dogmah].”

You only partly quoted that verse so I will ignore the rest.

klutedavid · Jun 15, 2020

Andre_b said:
Again it's all about context. Like I told you before.

Yet you ignore "they rested on the Sabbath ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT", shows that it's indeed something you do to love God. Just like John and Jesus keep repeating if you love me keep my commandments. Yet you ignore this because you aren't under ANY law according to you.

Also, being not under the law has nothing to do with keeping to law out of loving God and neighbour. You on the other hand use the word grace and make the law useless by assuming "not under the law" means you do nothing to follow the Holy Spirit and God's ways. You are claiming lawlessness when you do this. But then hypocritically start claiming other laws are to be followed.

Wearing 2 different materials has nothing to do with loving God or your neighbour. Colossians used the word ordinances to explain this.

Colossians 2:14 “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances [dogmah].”

Strong’s Definition: G1378 dogma, pronounced dog'-mah.
From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.

The Strong’s dictionary states that it can be a type of law but what type? Does it say that it is the Ten Commandment law or God’s law? No it does not. It says that it can be a “civil law,” “ceremonial law” or “ecclesiastical law” and a decree or ordinance.

When ones studies the context of this passage, it becomes clear that it is the “ordinances” which is also known as the ceremonial law (a phrase used by many famous theologians but does not occur in scripture) being the sacrificial part of the “Law of Moses” which is also known as the “Mosaic Law.”

For further clarity, what is the basic definition from the Thayer dictionary?

Thayer Definition: G1378 dogma
1) Doctrine, decree, ordinance
2) The rules and requirements of the Law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
3) Of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

Some things were part of the nation of Israel and CIVIL laws to make them DIFFERENT FROM ALL OTHER NATIONS AND SEPARATE. There's a reason why it is called the law of Moses and NOT the law of God.

The commandments existed BEFORE SINAI hence why God was angry that the Israelites were breaking them constantly when he asked them to obey. God also said it because they didn't listen to the instructions about the Sabbath in Exodus 16

"And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?"

Which group would you place yourself in those groups shown below?

Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: 'The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord ... the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

Dispensationalism

This view holds that Mosaic Laws and the penalties attached to them were limited to the particular historical and theological setting of the Old Testament. In that view, the Law was given to Israel and does not apply since the age of the New Covenant.

New Covenant Theology

New Covenant Theology (NCT), is a recently expressed Christian theological system on this issue that incorporates aspects of Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology. NCT claims that all Old Covenant laws have been fulfilled by Christ and are thus cancelled or abrogated.

THE SABBATH TRUTH!

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