Reincarnation in Christianity and Judaism

cloudyday2

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Christianity teaches that the dead are judged, and continue on to Heaven or Hell.
But that happens on the Day of Judgment when Jesus returns.

The problem is only when you believe that a person chooses to accept Jesus and also believe that this person becomes a new being who can never fall away. A Christian might be reincarnated as an atheist and every other religion on the planet before the Day of Judgment.

There is no problem if you believe in predestination or if you believe that Christians can lose their salvation.
 
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Radagast

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But that happens on the Day of Judgment when Jesus returns.

Reincarnation is ruled out by e.g. Luke 23:43: Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

A Christian might be reincarnated as an atheist and every other religion on the planet before the Day of Judgment.

No.
 
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DebbieJ

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Reincarnation is the teaching that after death, the spirit goes to a holding place and then enters a new human body during conception -- to be born again or to experience another physical birth. The memories of their past life are retained.

This is somewhat similar to Christ's birth. He retained his memories of his past life and experienced a physical birth -- the Word became flesh. But Christ was from spiritual to physical. Change this to physical to physical, it would be a reincarnation.

I know that reincarnation is against the Bible according to some Christian apologetics sites.

However, there are some verses which hints reincarnation.

"And as he was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who has sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?" Jesus answered, 'Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents, but the works of God were to be made manifest in him.'" (John 9:1)

Why did the disciple ask Christ this question? Was there a
previous life this blind man had that he should pay for his sins when he is born again in this world, that is, reincarnated? The disciple was not even refuted by Christ. Then there is also a passage about John the Baptist as Elijah, if we are willing to accept it.

Is there anything impossible for the Lord to do? What if the Lord allows for reincarnation for certain individuals? He did allow Lazarus to be resurrected and be dead again the second time. He did allow Himself, the Creator of all things to become flesh and blood.

I think with the Lord anything is possible. But, we are so afraid of accepting things that we think have no Biblical basis, therefore should be dismissed altogether and simply stick to a strict law of, "we die only once, after that the judgment." Even the Jews cannot accept the fact that the Lord can become a human being. It's so alien to them. They are better off believing what the Torah said that the Lord is not a mortal.

However, just like Lazurus, these holy people were raised to life after Jesus' resurrection:


Mat 27 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Of course, these people died for the second time and will be resurrected again - twice died and twice resurrected.

So, the law of "we die only once, after that the judgment" doesn't strictly apply to everyone. We shouldn't really put a limitation to what the Lord can do just because the Bible does not elaborate much about it, only leaving some breadcrumbs to figure it out.
 
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cloudyday2

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However, just like Lazurus, these holy people were raised to life after Jesus' resurrection:

Mat 27 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Of course, these people died for the second time and will be resurrected again - twice died and twice resurrected.
Interesting... I had never thought about the possibility that those people lived normal lives and died of natural causes a second time after being raised to life. I had always imagined them with spiritual bodies similar to the resurrected Jesus where they might appear normal and then disappear into thin air or walk through a wall like a ghost. I assumed they appeared to people and promptly went on to heaven.

So you imagine something more like the raising of Lazarus as opposed to resurrection of Jesus. I wonder if there are any Christian traditions about what happened?
 
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cloudyday2

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Reincarnation is ruled out by e.g. Luke 23:43: Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
"Today" doesn't necessarily mean in normal earth-time. In earth-time "today" for Jesus was spent in the tomb rather than paradise. Some traditions have Jesus preaching to people in the underworld, but I don't think any traditions imagine Jesus to be in paradise until the Ascension which happened 40 days after the Resurrection (depending on the source).

So why couldn't Jesus have meant "today by asking for mercy you have found forgiveness so you can be with me in paradise". The good thief might still be among us today (earth-time) living his 100th life after having been crucified with Jesus, but Jesus promised he would be with him in paradise after the Second Coming.

I'm not saying that idea works, but it isn't quite so obvious that it doesn't work IMO.
 
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cloudyday2

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Because that doesn't work in the original Greek.
O.k., but then how do you explain how the statement about "today you will be with me in paradise" was fulfilled when the body of Jesus was laying in the tomb awaiting the Resurrection?

This statement suggests a Hellenistic afterlife belief where the immortal soul is freed from the corrupt physical body to go to a purely spiritual heaven and live happily ever after. The typical indigenous Jewish ideas about the afterlife were closer to the Christian belief in "soul sleep". The souls went to rest in Sheol until the general resurrection.
 
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Albion

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O.k., but then how do you explain how the statement about "today you will be with me in paradise" was fulfilled when the body of Jesus was laying in the tomb awaiting the Resurrection?
But the Bible indicates that his spirit was not extinguished while his body was in the tomb and, in fact, we read in 1 Peter 3:19 that "he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" by which is meant Paradise or Abraham's Bosom.
 
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cloudyday2

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But the Bible indicates that his spirit was not extinguished while his body was in the tomb and, in fact, we read in 1 Peter 3:19 that "he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" by which is meant Paradise or Abraham's Bosom.
Paradise and Abraham's Bosom are not the same thing as I understand them. Paradise is the Kingdom of Heaven or maybe even the Garden of Eden which has been inaccessible until the Kingdom of Heaven begins. Abraham's Bosom is a more pleasant area of Sheol for the righteous shades to wait.

Read this on "the spirits in prison". I think Heiser's interpretation makes a lot of sense when the preceding verses about Noah are considered.
Just as Jesus was the second Adam for Paul, Jesus is the second Enoch for Peter. Enoch descended to the imprisoned fallen angels to announce their doom. 1 Pet 3:14-22 has Jesus descending to these same “the spirits in prison,” the fallen angels, to tell them they were still defeated, despite his crucifixion. God’s plan of salvation and kingdom rule was still intact. In fact, it was right on schedule. The crucifixion actually meant victory over every demonic force opposed to God. This victory declaration is why 1 Pet 3:14-22 ends with Jesus risen from the dead and set at the right hand of God — above all angels, authorities and powers.
Baptism as Spiritual Warfare - Dr. Michael Heiser
 
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cloudyday2

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It would be hard to show that it ever was.
It seems to me that knowing the answer for Judaism would suggest the answer for early Christianity. I don't think reincarnation was a normal belief in Judaism until maybe 1000 years after Jesus or more, so it would be very unlikely that early Christians would believe in reincarnation. And later Christians were the proto-orthodox who didn't believe in reincarnation and didn't tolerate dissenting beliefs.
 
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public hermit

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Here is a Wikipedia page with some info:
Reincarnation - Wikipedia

That Origen believed in the transmigration of souls is probably on solid ground, even in spite of Rufinus. Origen held that the degree to which pre-existing souls fell from grace determined their status in this life. This is one way of dealing with the obvious disadvantages some souls have upon entrance into the world. Not unlike karma? Side note-all souls eventually migrate back to God, per Origen. This much we can glean from what we have of Origen. Nonetheless, Rufinus definitely corrupted the text of De Principiis because we have both his Latin translation and enough of the Greek to catch some changes. Other than Origen, I really can't think of other possible sources for an early Xn belief in reincarnation or something similar.
 
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cloudyday2

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That Origen believed in the transmigration of souls is probably on solid ground, even in spite of Rufinus. Origen held that the degree to which pre-existing souls fell from grace determined their status in this life. This is one way of dealing with the obvious disadvantages some souls have upon entrance into the world. Not unlike karma? Side note-all souls eventually migrate back to God, per Origen. This much we can glean from what we have of Origen. Nonetheless, Rufinus definitely corrupted the text of De Principiis because we have both his Latin translation and enough of the Greek to catch some changes. Other than Origen, I really can't think of other possible sources for an early Xn belief in reincarnation or something similar.

It would be helpful to know how common reincarnation was believed by Gentiles. The Gnostic idea about divine sparks falling to become trapped in physical bodies seems to require reincarnation. I assume divine sparks cannot perish if they are divine. Also there would be no great need for Gnostic secrets if a divine spark automatically returned to heaven upon the death of its physical body. It seems to me that Gnosticism requires reincarnation of the divine sparks but not necessarily reincarnation for everybody. That is probably where Origin got his ideas. (Of course there are many different Gnostic religions, and some of them may not require reincarnations.)

Gnostics were a minority in early Christianity and secretive and apparently attended church with non-Gnostics. So the belief in reincarnation might have existed in secret.
 
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public hermit

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Gnostics were a minority in early Christianity and secretive and apparently attended church with non-Gnostics. So the belief in reincarnation might have existed in secret.

The Gnostic connection is interesting. I agree that, at least for some time, Gnosticism would have been present early on. Christianity and Gnosticism appear to have come up together.

There are also Greek philosophical influences on Origen's transmigration of souls. Plato, for one. Traditionally, it has been held that both Origen and Plotinus studied under Ammonious Saccas (Neoplatonism). That is debateable, but that kind of influence is easily seen in Origen. How that might tie into Gnosticism, I'm not sure.
 
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Robban

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O.k., but then how do you explain how the statement about "today you will be with me in paradise" was fulfilled when the body of Jesus was laying in the tomb awaiting the Resurrection?

This statement suggests a Hellenistic afterlife belief where the immortal soul is freed from the corrupt physical body to go to a purely spiritual heaven and live happily ever after. The typical indigenous Jewish ideas about the afterlife were closer to the Christian belief in "soul sleep". The souls went to rest in Sheol until the general resurrection.

Soul sleep is based on Daniel 12:2.

Reincarnation of the soul is alluded to in Job 33:29.
 
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Albion

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Paradise and Abraham's Bosom are not the same thing as I understand them.
Yes, they are. People mistakenly think Paradise means Heaven. But regardless, take my answer as referring to Abraham's Bosom and that's the explanation about Jesus after the Crucifixion.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Belief in reincarnation is common in modern Judaism, and some people claim that belief in reincarnation was once common in Christianity.

(1) When is the earliest record of Jews professing belief in reincarnation? Some claim that Josephus mentioned the belief, but others claim that Josephus was actually describing belief in the resurrection of the dead at the day of judgment.

(2) Where/when is early Christian belief in reincarnation mentioned as common and acceptable? Apparently Origin speculated about reincarnation, but the speculation of an intellectual does not imply a common belief - in fact it probably argues AGAINST a common belief because there would be no reason to speculate about it.

(3) Is reincarnation compatible with Christian theology?

Here is a Wikipedia page with some info:
Reincarnation - Wikipedia

In the case of Origen, he's usually brought up in discussions like this, but the only instance I'm aware of where he mentions reincarnation he states quite unambiguously that it is a false belief.

"What credibility, forsooth, has the erroneous opinion, whether of Herod or of some of the people, that John and Jesus were not two persons, but that it was one and the same person John who rose from the dead after that he had been beheaded and was called Jesus? Some one might say, however, that Herod and some of those of the people held the false dogma of the transmigration of souls into bodies, in consequence of which they thought that the former John had appeared again by a fresh birth, and had come from the dead into life as Jesus. But the time between the birth of John and the birth of Jesus, which was not more than six months, does not permit this false opinion to be considered credible. And perhaps rather some such idea as this was in the mind of Herod, that the powers which wrought in John had passed over to Jesus, in consequence of which He was thought by the people to be John the Baptist. And one might use the following line of argument. Just as because of the spirit and the power of Elijah, and not because of his soul, it is said about John, 'This is Elijah which is to come,' the spirit in Elijah and the power in him having gone over to John" - Origen, Commentaries on Matthew, Book X, ch. 20

"But now according to our ability let us make investigation also into the things that are stored up in it. In this place it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I should fall into the dogma of transmigration, which is foreign to the church of God, and not handed down by the Apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the Scriptures;" - ibid Book XIII, ch. 1

From further investigating, though I would prefer to be able to find it for myself in the text, Origen does set forth a conjecture that this present universe is not the first and may not be the last; but conjectures a pre-existence and thus the soul existed prior to our conception. And that perhaps after the consummation and conclusion of this age and in the next, a fall might be possible and thus the soul would find itself again in a future world. This certainly sounds like Origen, from what I understand, and this is apparently from his work known as First Principles (de Principii in Latin or Peri Archon in Greek). Though I have not gone and personally scoured the text to find a source for it.

But as far as the notion of reincarnation, of a successive transmigration of the soul from one life to the next, Origen is clear throughout his writings that he considers such an idea false and totally foreign to the Christian faith. And the most that could be said is that he engages in a rather wild speculation about the possibility of successive ages, and the soul having a preexistence prior to this age. An act of pure speculation on his part and not representative of what he himself held to be true, or of what Christians believed.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Where do you see the incompatibilities between Christianity and reincarnation?

Christianity believes in the resurrection of the body. A human person is not a "soul", but a person, your body is you just as much as your soul is you. It is the human person who lives forever in the Age to Come, that means the body. This body with these fingers typing on this keyboard will one day be restored, glorified, and live forever.

That is fundamentally incompatible with the idea of reincarnation.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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cloudyday2

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Soul sleep is based on Daniel 12:2.

Reincarnation of the soul is alluded to in Job 33:29.
I also realized that there are similarities between ancient Jewish Gnostics and modern Jewish Kabbalists that might indicate a continuous tradition of reincarnation in Judaism going back to ancient times. Both the Gnostics and the Kabbalists are an elite within the normal religious community rather than a competing religious community. And they are both secretive, so maybe a few Jewish Gnostics persisted from ancient times until the middle ages when they became more popular and public as Kabbalists.
 
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cloudyday2

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Christianity believes in the resurrection of the body. A human person is not a "soul", but a person, your body is you just as much as your soul is you. It is the human person who lives forever in the Age to Come, that means the body. This body with these fingers typing on this keyboard will one day be restored, glorified, and live forever.

That is fundamentally incompatible with the idea of reincarnation.

-CryptoLutheran
There are at least two resurrection appearances where Jesus is not recognized for unstated reasons. Also Jesus could vanish and enter locked rooms and so forth - more like angels are described.

We know scientifically that our body is always in flux. We eat and breathe and excrete waste products. Our bodies age. We have genes that cause illnesses and handicaps.

I was reading an interesting article about the importance of gut flora. 60% of the cells in our body are fungi and microbes. There was an experiment showing that transplanting microbes from a depressed human into a rat caused the rat to have depression.

So my question is: what is our body?
 
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