THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS (Luke 16) IS NOT A PARABLE

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Major1

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No it's not. The Rich Man wasn't in the Lake of Fire. He was in Hades.

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
(Lk. 15:11-13 KJV)

This one is right before the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man and it starts out the very same way.

And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. (Lk. 16:1-2 KJV)

Did you think maybe Jesus didn't say it wasn't literal because He figured people would know that dead people are dead. Other than the few passages of Scripture that you're misunderstanding, what evidence leads you to believe that dead people are anything other than dead?

Using a name doesn't make it literal. As I've said, the name is important to the parable.

You're starting from the premise that man can live apart from the body. You can't prove that from Scripture. All one can do is infer it. However, as has been pointed out that premise contradicts other passages of Scripture. If you're interpretation of a passage conflicts with other passages you've got yourself and error somewhere.

Butch, we have had this conversation several times. Do you really think that you will be able to change what I know the Bible says?????????
YES it is!
NO it isn't.
YES it is!
NO it isn't.
YES it is!
NO it isn't.
YES it is!
NO it isn't.
YES it is!
NO it isn't.
YES it is!
NO it isn't.
YES it is!
NO it isn't.
YES it is!
NO it isn't.

Luke 16:19 to 31 is another scripture that shows very plainly that the souls or spirits of people are alive after someone dies physically. They can talk, think, remember, and feel pain as it says, but if we take this scripture literally then it destroys the doctrine of 'soul-sleep'.

IT IS For this reason that YOU would like to explain this scripture away as a parable, because then it enables them to ignore the literal interpretation.

That is the root/bottom line of this conversation we have had.

This is wrong, and do YOU actually believe that if Jesus believed the doctrine of soul-sleep or He did not believe that there is life in the soul that he would have told a parable or a Scripture or say anything like this which contradicts it so very plainly??????

Now YOU can Believe as you choose to believe. I am very comfortable in what I know and believe.

I KNOW that there is a literal Hell and conversation with anyone who does not accept that Bible fact will not change it.

I am keenly aware that there are many names given to hell. Among them are Shoal/Hades/Hell/Torments/Grave/Gehenna/Second Death/Eternal Retribution but those are just playing games with names as they all refer to the same place which in the end becomes the LAKE OF FIRE.

Revelation 20:14...…..
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

 
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And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. (Lk. 16:1-2 KJV)

Ah, now THERE'S a guy who knows how to parlay his boss's credit into goodwill. Too weak to dig and too proud to beg lol.
 
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Shrewd Manager

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Mumbo Jumbo or is it Jumbo Mumbo?????

Elephants have long memories, Major. That's why I employ one as a secretary.

And Ms Mumbo reminds me that certain of the brethren would rather abscond awhile than submit to the indisputable beautiful truth of the total victory of Christ, God's Salvation of all mankind. The lake of fire is the ultimate cure for sin and death, God's 'final solution' - the divine Madagascar, if you will.
 
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Major1

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Elephants have long memories, Major. That's why I employ one as a secretary.

And Ms Mumbo reminds me that certain of the brethren would rather abscond awhile than submit to the indisputable beautiful truth of the total victory of Christ, God's Salvation of all mankind. The lake of fire is the ultimate cure for sin and death, God's 'final solution' - the divine Madagascar, if you will.

I agree almost completely with you. God's salvation is for ALL human beings.

The penalty paid by Christ was for ALL sinners. As Christ laid down his life voluntarily for our sins, he paid the full penalty for all sin, of all people, of all time -- past, present, and future.

How can anyone think different than what is written 1 Peter 3:18 ………...

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit".

However, how can anyone deny the words from the same written Word from God Himself in Revelation 20:14-15.....
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Is one Scripture right and one wrong????

NO! They are both right and the answer is that God in Christ made salvation possible when He paid for the sins of ALL men, but to obtain that salvation one must come to and accept Jesus Christ by faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is either right or it is wrong.......
"We sare saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH and not by ourselves, it is the gist of God".
 
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FineLinen

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God in Christ made salvation possible when He paid for the sins of ALL men, but to obtain that salvation one must come to and accept Jesus Christ by faith.

Nope!

The salvation of the Lord is not based in anything but Himself. When each person comes into the realization of that fact is not time sensitive.

For the vast, vast majority it will occur in the dispensation of the fulness of times when the all of ta pavnte heads Home into Him.

The identical many made sinners = the many made righteous.
 
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Major1

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Nope!

The salvation of the Lord is not based in anything but Himself. When each person comes into the realization of that fact is not time sensitive.

For the vast, vast majority it will occur in the dispensation of the fulness of times when the all of ta pavnte heads Home into Him.

The identical many made sinners = the many made righteous.

Revelation 20:14-15 just does not support your theology my friend...….
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
 
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FineLinen

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Revelation 20:14-15 just does not support your theology my friend...….
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Evidently St. Paul should know he is not in accord as he penned the words of Romans 5?

Do you know who are not "hurt" by the 2nd death? They are an exclusive group of saints known as overcomers!

The identical many made sinners = the many made righteous.
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
Evidently St. Paul should know he is not in accord as he penned the words of Romans 5?
Do you know who are not "hurt" by the 2nd death? They are an exclusive group of saints known as overcomers!
The identical many made sinners = the many made righteous.
Paul used the word "pollus"/"many," 71 times.
Paul used the word "pas"/"all," 375 times.
When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas," not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used “oi polloi”/”the many” 12 times where it clearly does not mean "all."
In one verse 1 Cor 10:33 Paul used “the many” and “all” in the same verse.
Romans 12:5, Romans 15:22-23, Romans 16:2,1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13
 
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FineLinen

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A ghastly horrid notion !

renderTimingPixel.png

And, as I say, I do in fact—and quite intentionally—use very strong language about certain teachings I find abominable.

I will not feign contrition on that score. Nor should I. My characterizations of the teaching of eternal conscious torment are perfectly apt and fair, and they are directed as much at me as at any other Christian.

I know how coarsened our consciences can become when trying to justify to ourselves what we think is required of us by faith and tradition. But, frankly, the burden of proof—and of a certain seemly reticence—falls quite on the other side of the room in this debate.

After all, why should anyone feel the need to apologize for denouncing an idea that looks fairly monstrous from any angle, one whose principal use down the centuries has arguably been the psychological abuse and terrorization of children?

Who, after all, is saying something more objectively atrocious, or more aggressively perverse?

The person who claims that every newborn infant enters the world justly under the threat of eternal dereliction, and that a good God imposes or permits the imposition of a state of eternal agony on finite, created rational beings as part of the mystery of his love or sovereignty or justice?

Or the person who observes that such ideas are cruel and barbarous and depraved?

Which of these two should really be, if not ashamed of his or her words, at least hesitant, ambivalent, and even a little penitent in uttering them?

And which has a better right to moral indignation at what the other has said? And, really, don’t these questions answer themselves?

A belief does not merit unconditional reverence just because it is old, nor should it be immune to being challenged in terms commensurate to the scandal it seems to pose.

And the belief that a God of infinite intellect, justice, love, and power would condemn rational beings to a state of perpetual torment, or would allow them to condemn themselves on account of their own delusion, pain, and anger, is probably worse than merely scandalous.

It may be the single most horrid notion the religious imagination has ever conceived, and the most irrational and spiritually corrosive picture of existence possible.

And anyone who thinks that such claims are too strong or caustic, while at the same time finding the traditional notion of a hell of everlasting suffering perfectly unobjectionable, needs to consider whether he or she is really thinking clearly about it at all. If anything, my rhetoric in the book may have been far, far too mild. -David B. Hart-
 
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Der Alte

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The identical many made sinners = the many made righteous.
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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Saint Steven said:
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Posted previous this thread.
Paul used the word "pollus"/"many," 71 times.
Paul used the word "pas"/"all," 375 times.
When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas," not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used “oi polloi”/”the many” 12 times where it clearly does not mean "all."
In one verse 1 Cor 10:33 Paul used “the many” and “all” in the same verse.

1 Corinthians 10:33
33 Even as I please all [παντα] men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many [των πολλων], that they may be saved.
Romans 12:5, Romans 15:22-23, Romans 16:2,1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13
 
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Major1

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Nope!

The salvation of the Lord is not based in anything but Himself. When each person comes into the realization of that fact is not time sensitive.

For the vast, vast majority it will occur in the dispensation of the fulness of times when the all of ta pavnte heads Home into Him.

The identical many made sinners = the many made righteous.

Wrong.

DEATH is the time sensitive factor.

John 3:16 is either right or it is wrong......
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
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Major1

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Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

What you just posted is called the doctrine of "Federal Headship".

It is all about the imputation of sin through Adam.

Adams one act made all humans guilty of sin. That was through his disobedience.

Christ OBEDIENCE, His death and resurrection makes it possible for God to declare righteous the sinner WHO WILL COME TO HIM THROUGH CHRIST.

The Bible is clear that unredeemed men will dwell forever in hell. Jesus’ own words confirm that the time spent in heaven for the redeemed will last as long as that of the unredeemed in hell. Matthew 25:46 says...............….....
“Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

According to this verse, the punishment of the unsaved is just as eternal as the life of the righteous. Some believe that those in hell will eventually cease to exist, but the Lord Himself confirms that it will last forever.

Matthew 25:41 and Mark 9:44 describe hell as “eternal fire” and “unquenchable fire.”

Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches. While many people accuse Christians of being intolerant and “exclusive,” it is important to remember that these are the words of Christ Himself. Christians did not develop these ideas on their own; Christians are simply stating what the Lord has already said.

People choose to reject the message because they do not want to face up to their sin and admit that they need the Lord to save them. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved is to belittle the holiness and justice of God and negate the need of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.
 
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Major1

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Evidently St. Paul should know he is not in accord as he penned the words of Romans 5?

Do you know who are not "hurt" by the 2nd death? They are an exclusive group of saints known as overcomers!

The identical many made sinners = the many made righteous.

My dear brother, "ALL" who by CHOICE find themselves in the 2nd Death, will be "Hurt/TORMENTED " eternally as the 2nd Death IS THE lake of fire.

Now I have done this several times and not one single person of your group of Universalists will respond.

THE BIBLE SAYS...….....

Revelation 20:10...…..
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

So there is Satan, the A/C and the False Prophet in the lake of fire forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15...…….
"hen death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

And there is "ALL" the Lost of all the ages in the Lake of Fire with the devil, A/C and the False Prophet.

Now you post the Scriptures which tell us that "ALL" of those individuals will accept Christ and be saved and then removed from the Lake of Fire" and delivered to Heaven with God.

That is exactly what all of you have been saying. NOW PROVE IT!


There has been more than enough words, and comments and this and that. Just post the Scriptures that validate your opinion and we can put all of this to bed.
 
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What you just posted is called the doctrine of "Federal Headship".

It is all about the imputation of sin through Adam.

Adams one act made all humans guilty of sin. That was through his disobedience.

Christ OBEDIENCE, His death and resurrection makes it possible for God to declare righteous the sinner WHO WILL COME TO HIM THROUGH CHRIST.

The Bible is clear that unredeemed men will dwell forever in hell. Jesus’ own words confirm that the time spent in heaven for the redeemed will last as long as that of the unredeemed in hell. Matthew 25:46 says...............….....
“Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

According to this verse, the punishment of the unsaved is just as eternal as the life of the righteous. Some believe that those in hell will eventually cease to exist, but the Lord Himself confirms that it will last forever.

Matthew 25:41 and Mark 9:44 describe hell as “eternal fire” and “unquenchable fire.”

Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches. While many people accuse Christians of being intolerant and “exclusive,” it is important to remember that these are the words of Christ Himself. Christians did not develop these ideas on their own; Christians are simply stating what the Lord has already said.

People choose to reject the message because they do not want to face up to their sin and admit that they need the Lord to save them. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved is to belittle the holiness and justice of God and negate the need of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.
So you only believe half of what verse 18 teaches and half of what verse 19 teaches based on your claim that Universalism isn't biblical. That's rich. - lol

Saint Steven said:
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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Saint Steven

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The Bible is clear that unredeemed men will dwell forever in hell. Jesus’ own words confirm that the time spent in heaven for the redeemed will last as long as that of the unredeemed in hell. Matthew 25:46 says...............….....
“Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

According to this verse, the punishment of the unsaved is just as eternal as the life of the righteous. Some believe that those in hell will eventually cease to exist, but the Lord Himself confirms that it will last forever.
Not all Bibles are created equally. (biased to Damnationism)

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
 
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Major1

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Evidently St. Paul should know he is not in accord as he penned the words of Romans 5?

Do you know who are not "hurt" by the 2nd death? They are an exclusive group of saints known as overcomers!

The identical many made sinners = the many made righteous.

My dear brother, "ALL" who by CHOICE find themselves in the 2nd Death, will be "Hurt/TORMENTED " eternally as the 2nd Death IS THE lake of fire.

Now I have done this several times and not one single person of your group of Universalists will respond.

THE BIBLE SAYS...….....

Revelation 20:10...…..
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

So there is Satan, the A/C and the False Prophet in the lake of fire forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15...…….
"hen death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

And there is "ALL" the Lost of all the ages in the Lake of Fire with the devil, A/C and the False Prophet.

Now you post the Scriptures which tell us that "ALL" of those individuals will accept Christ and be saved and then removed from the Lake of Fire" and delivered to Heaven with God.

That is exactly what all of you have been saying. NOW PROVE IT!


There has been more than enough words, and comments and this and that. Just post the Scriptures that validate your opinion and we can put all of this to bed.
 
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Major1

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Not all Bibles are created equally. (biased to Damnationism)

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

47 out of 50 translations say...…"Forever and ever".

The YLT being one of them.

Now you post the Scriptures which tell us that "ALL" of those individuals will accept Christ and be saved and then removed from the Lake of Fire" and delivered to Heaven with God.

That is exactly what all of you have been saying. NOW PROVE IT!
 
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So you only believe half of what verse 18 teaches and half of what verse 19 teaches based on your claim that Universalism isn't biblical. That's rich. - lol

Saint Steven said:
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

No sir. But you did not read the post where I detailed that the righteousness of God is only added to THOOSE WHO BELIEV AND ACCEPT CHRIST.

THE BIBLE SAYS...….....

Revelation 20:10...…..
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

So there is Satan, the A/C and the False Prophet in the lake of fire forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15...…….
"hen death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

And there is "ALL" the Lost of all the ages in the Lake of Fire with the devil, A/C and the False Prophet.

Now you post the Scriptures which tell us that "ALL" of those individuals will accept Christ and be saved and then removed from the Lake of Fire" and delivered to Heaven with God.

That is exactly what all of you have been saying. NOW PROVE IT!


There has been more than enough words, and comments and this and that. Just post the Scriptures that validate your opinion and we can put all of this to bed.
 
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