Do Two Jerusalems kill the Premill doctrine?

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sovereigngrace

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Nit picking. But if you must know many scholars treat teh call of John to go into heaven as symbolic of the rapture. I don't! Are you upset because teh 7 letters don't describe everything that takes place? Maybe Christians weren't burned as Tiki torches in Neros garden because they are not mentioned in these 7 letters either??? Maybe no catacombs, for they are not mnetioned either! How silly do you wan to get with this?

Ok, so there is no mention of a "Church age" in Revelation, there is also no mention of a rapture of the Church in Revelation, why do you believe such? Where is your 7-years trib?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Well all your attempts at alliteration just make you sound ignorant.

Calvary is the perfect sacrifice! I am righteous because Jesus is my righteousness. For me eternal righteousness is finished. But for teh world- look around do you think Israel, and Jerusalem are righteous? Has Israel anointed Her Messiah as King? NO! Once again careleesly reading prophecies
REsult ini false conclusions that your teachers have spread for ages since Augustine and especially during the dark ages. Many churches kept the Catholic docgtrine alive and well of allegorism and covenantalism alive to this day!

This is rich coming from a Pretribber. When Scripture doesn't work you resort to the early church fathers to somehow help your cause. But you have been unable to find one single ECF that taught (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ.
 
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mkgal1

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I am not saying give up what you have to say about the pharisees of that generation, nor that Jerusalem rejected Jesus as her king. What I am saying is the conclusion therefore is that Jerusalem is the Mystery Babylon the Great, you should give a reconsideration.
I was mostly responding to what you said here:

Douggg said: When we read Revelation, what we are reading about is the conflict between the mystery of God and the mystery of Satan.

God's plan which of course will be victorious is to bring the Kingdom of Heaven here to earth and dismantle, destroy, Satan and his angels kingdom - called Mystery Babylon the Great. And to restore man from the fall in the garden. And to destroy Satan who is at the root of sin, and all that have been slain upon the earth.​

.....and I can understand the perspective from like a 10,000 foot view (the battle between God and Satan/Her seed and Satan's seed)....but ISTM that there was this specific point in history when God/Son of Man held this one specific generation responsible ("come out of her, this corrupt generation " Acts 2:40; Luke 21:21; Matthew 24:16 "Come out of her, My people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues" Revelation 18:4).

Ancient Jerusalem was God's "bride".....and for her to remain in her unfaithfulness she was to be judged for her "harlotry". That's what I believe the destruction of Jerusalem was in 70 AD - her judgment.
 
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BABerean2

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If one is looking for Jerusalem in 70 AD Revelation 12, and I should not have to tell you who the flood was.


The beginning of Revelation 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth, and death of Christ.

.
 
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7xlightray

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The beginning of Revelation 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth, and death of Christ.

.
And raised to the throne, where He received the book of seven seals.

Satan cast to the earth, and Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea, going out to overcome, and deceive.
 
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mkgal1

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Jesus was addressing the pharisees, as the chlldren of the them which killed the prophets..

Matthew 23;31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

So if the pharisees were the children of - who was their father, and who is the them?
Literally their forefathers killed the prophets.

Read further. Jesus called them out for their false self-righteous attitudes and prophesied that they would follow in their father's shoes (so to speak) by also killing Jesus, Himself, and His disciples:

Matthew
30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then,g the measure of the sin of your fathers. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of Gehenna?34Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation​
 
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Douggg

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Literally their forefathers killed the prophets. I'm not sure what you're asking or getting at?

Read further. Jesus called them out for their false self-righteous attitudes and prophesied that they would follow in their father's shoes (so to speak) by also killing Jesus, Himself, and His disciples:

Matthew
30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then,g the measure of the sin of your fathers. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of Gehenna?34Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation​
(from the translation - which one? - you are using mkgal1),

30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then,g the measure of the sin of your fathers. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of Gehenna?


And their fathers, got it from the devil being the father of them all.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. KJV

Goes back to the garden of eden and the original serpent who lied to Adam and Eve to get them to sin, on behalf of the devil. Which is why Jesus referred to the pharisees as vipers, snakes, in your translation version for Matthew 23:33.

The beast in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17:8a is the spirit of the original serpent in the garden that apparently sold out to Satan on a promise to rule the garden of eden, the world at that time.

Satan attempted that same deal with Jesus by offering the nations, but Jesus refused.

The same deal will be made to the end times person, who for awhile will rule the world; as Satan also during that time will be worshiped by incarnating the statue image of the beast >>> the end times person, possessed by the spirit of the serpent beast now in the bottomless pit.

Mystery Babylon the Great is not about Jerusalem, but Satan's and his angels kingdom holding sway over the nations.
 
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BABerean2

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Mystery Babylon the Great is not about Jerusalem, but Satan's and his angels kingdom holding sway over the nations.

Can you show a definite reference to earthly Jerusalem in the Book of Revelation, other than the one found below?

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Can you explain Revelation 2:9, and Revelation 3:9, and how they relate to Romans 2:28-29?

.
 
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jgr

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Well all your attempts at alliteration just make you sound ignorant.

Glad you've enjoyed them.

Calvary is the perfect sacrifice! I am righteous because Jesus is my righteousness. For me eternal righteousness is finished.

You've personally fully experienced everything that Daniel and Paul declared.

You have everlasting righteousness, as Daniel declared, brought in by Christ at Calvary.

Your righteousness was witnessed by the prophets, as Paul declared, one of whom was Daniel.

You have your righteousness now, as Paul declared.

You have your righteousness because you believe, as Paul declared.

Your righteousness today is a complete contradiction of the fallacy of futurized righteousness which you espouse.

Your righteousness is a demonstration of the fulfillments of the declarations of Daniel and Paul.

Congratulations are in order.


Daniel 9
24...to bring in everlasting righteousness...

Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
 
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mkgal1

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(from the translation - which one? - you are using mkgal1),

30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then,g the measure of the sin of your fathers. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of Gehenna?


And their fathers, got it from the devil being the father of them all.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. KJV

Goes back to the garden of eden and the original serpent who lied to Adam and Eve to get them to sin, on behalf of the devil. Which is why Jesus referred to the pharisees as vipers, snakes, in your translation version for Matthew 23:33.

The beast in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17:8a is the spirit of the original serpent in the garden that apparently sold out to Satan on a promise to rule the garden of eden, the world at that time.

Satan attempted that same deal with Jesus by offering the nations, but Jesus refused.

The same deal will be made to the end times person, who for awhile will rule the world; as Satan also during that time will be worshiped by incarnating the statue image of the beast >>> the end times person, possessed by the spirit of the serpent beast now in the bottomless pit.

Mystery Babylon the Great is not about Jerusalem, but Satan's and his angels kingdom holding sway over the nations.
I agree with you that this goes back to Genesis and the serpent. Just as God became flesh....so also did humans become like the serpent.

I can also agree with the idea the Revelation's Mystery Babylon was satan's city.....I just happen to believe that the Son of Man has already claimed victory and He is our King.

In reading the passage in Matthew (I was using the BSB, by the way) as I posted earlier, instead of shifting over to the passage in John 8:44, I believe the reader should continue in Matthew. I don't see these as parallel passages. In Matthew, Jesus is confronting the hypocrisy of the Scribes and Pharisees. They were making the argument that they wouldn't have participated in the blood shed earlier in history, but Jesus doesn't allow them the excuse that "our father....the father of lies made us do it". Instead....Jesus states they will be responsible for all the righteous blood shed on earth.

Matthew:
34Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town.
35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.


Quoting Vladimir Moss:

They both crucified their True King and God, and said to Pilate: "We have no other king but Caesar" (John 19.15). At that moment they became no different spiritually from the other pagan peoples; for, like the pagans, they had come to recognize a mere man, the Roman emperor, as higher than God Himself. As St. John Chrysostom writes: “Here they declined the Kingdom of Christ and called to themselves that of Caesar.”

What made this apostasy worse was the fact that they were not compelled to it by any despotic decree. Pilate not only did not demand this recognition of Caesar from them, but had said of Christ – “Behold your king” (John 19.14), and had then ordered the sign, “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews”, to be nailed above the cross. The Jews had in effect carried out both a democratic revolution against their True King, and, at the same time, a despotic obeisance to a false god-king.

Thus did the City of God on earth become the City of Man - and the stronghold of Satan: How has the faithful city become a harlot! It was full of justice, righteousness lodged in it, but now murderers” (Isaiah 1.21).
Thus did the original sin committed under Saul, when the people of God sought a king who would rule them "like all the nations", reap its final wages in their submission to "the god of this world”. -
CHRIST, ISRAEL AND THE FALL OF JERUSALEM



 
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nolidad

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Ok, so there is no mention of a "Church age" in Revelation, there is also no mention of a rapture of the Church in Revelation, why do you believe such? Where is your 7-years trib?

nit picking again. You know what is meant by the church age! So never use the word trinity if you are that nit picky.
 
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nolidad

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This is rich coming from a Pretribber. When Scripture doesn't work you resort to the early church fathers to somehow help your cause. But you have been unable to find one single ECF that taught (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ.

They believed in a gathering in the clouds. The term rapture wasn't born until the 19th century! As I already told you that the trib may not immediately follow the rapture your comment here is just so much straw man!

The fact teh Bible calls for 7 years I will also call for 7 years. Then after the seven years when the entire surviving nation of Israel gets saved- we have the 2nd coming of Jesus! The rapture is not a coming of Jesus so throw that away unless you still wish to use it as a straw man!
 
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Douggg

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I believe the reader should continue in Matthew. Jesus is confronting the hypocrisy of the Scribes and Pharisees. He doesn't allow them the excuse that "our father....the father of lies made us do it". Instead....Jesus states they will be responsible for all the righteous blood.
I don't think the Pharisees were ever using "our father... the father of lies made use do it" as an excuse. They were resenting the accusation of being motivated by Satan, when Jesus said their father was the devil.

For their part in the rejection of Jesus and plotting to have Jesus put to death, they are responsible for their actions, and their cover up of the resurrection, and their fighting the good news of the gospel of salvation that came afterward, and their persecution of the believers in the decades that followed. Until, the temple was destroyed and the Jews forced into the nations. A lot fell upon that generation of pharisees, from the way they operated on a daily basis, to their guilt in fighting God and salvation through Christ Jesus.

In Revelation, is the broad scope of the mystery of Satan including his and his angels kingdom workings. In Revelation 18, Babylon is fallen, is fallen is a referral to when Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth from the second heaven. And the fallen star in Revelation 9 is likely Satan, from that same event.

There is no actual earthly city that fits the city in Revelation 18. It metaphorically likening the destruction of Satan's kingdom to the sudden destruction of a great trading city, that got rich from wickedness. Come out of her my people, is the plea not to partake in the wickedness of Satan's kingdom of Babylon the great.

In similitude to the Revelation great trading city, in Ezekiel 28:16, Satan has merchandise of wickedness, that is filled with violence.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
 
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sovereigngrace

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nit picking again. You know what is meant by the church age! So never use the word trinity if you are that nit picky.

Not so. I am only exposing false doctrine your teachers have taught you. The Church was in the OT.

You prove that Pretrib extra-biblical by your failure to provide supporting Scripture. That is why many have (and are) abandoning it.
 
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sovereigngrace

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They believed in a gathering in the clouds. The term rapture wasn't born until the 19th century! As I already told you that the trib may not immediately follow the rapture your comment here is just so much straw man!

The fact teh Bible calls for 7 years I will also call for 7 years. Then after the seven years when the entire surviving nation of Israel gets saved- we have the 2nd coming of Jesus! The rapture is not a coming of Jesus so throw that away unless you still wish to use it as a straw man!

LOL, where does it "call for 7 years" after "the rapture" or before your "3rd coming"? At the moment all you are repeating is man-made false doctrine.
 
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jgr

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They believed in a gathering in the clouds. The term rapture wasn't born until the 19th century! As I already told you that the trib may not immediately follow the rapture your comment here is just so much straw man!

They all believed that the Church would endure tribulation, invalidating the modernist fallacy of a pretrib rapture. The term rapture wasn't born until the 19th century, to describe the fallacy which had just been born.
 
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mkgal1

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I don't think the Pharisees were ever using "our father... the father of lies made use do it" as an excuse.
I wasn't asserting the Pharisees and Scribes were using that excuse. The point I was trying to make was that what Jesus said (recorded in Matthew 23:35) doesn't allow for the blame to be shifted. Jesus was stating the judgement would fall on them....the first century religious leaders (and it did in the destruction and end of the Old Covenant temple system). Mystery Babylon is more specific than just the kingdom of satan and his angels.

Matthew 23:35 ~ As a result, you will be held responsible for the murder of all righteous people of all time—from the murder of righteous Abel to the murder of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you killed in the Temple between the sanctuary and the altar

Revelation 18:24
And there was found in her the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who had been slain on the earth.
 
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mkgal1

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There is no actual earthly city that fits the city in Revelation 18. It metaphorically likening the destruction of Satan's kingdom to the sudden destruction of a great trading city, that got rich from wickedness. Come out of her my people, is the plea not to partake in the wickedness of Satan's kingdom of Babylon the great.

In similitude to the Revelation great trading city, in Ezekiel 28:16, Satan has merchandise of wickedness, that is filled with violence.
Revelation does seem broader to me than Jesus' words were to the Pharisees and Scribes (and perhaps that's because the Gospel was spreading...as were false teaching of the Judiazers that were attempting to bring people back under the Old Covenant Law).

I agree with the similarities in Ezekiel (Tyre).
Duncan McKenzie addresses that:

Quoting
Duncan McKenzie
from his 2006 article titled “The Merchandise of the Temple.” The following is an excerpt from that article:

Babylon was not a literal city (not Jerusalem and certainly not Rome). It was a symbol of a community of people, a symbol of God’s unfaithful old covenant community. This community is being represented by images associated with the Temple and the priesthood… Of the items which are listed in Rev 18, gold and silver, precious stones, fine linen, purple, silk (for vestments) scarlet, precious wood, bronze, iron (cf. Deut 8:9), marble cinnamon (as an ingredient of the sacred anointing oil), spices, incense, ointment, frankincense, wine, oil fine meal (Gr. Semidalis, used frequently in Leviticus for fine flour offering), corn, beasts, sheep are all found in use in the temple. Ivory and probably pearls were found in Herod’s temple…

The listing of merchandise in Revelation 18 is similar to the listing of the merchandise of Tyre in Ezekiel 27:12-24, as is the lamenting by those who got wealthy off the respective cities (Ezekiel 27:28-36). In Ezekiel 27 the city of Tyre is pictured as a ship (vv. 5-9) that sinks at sea (vv. 26, 32, 34). In Revelation 18 the Temple system of unfaithful Israel is pictured as a city that is overthrown… Only 15 of the 27 items in Revelation 18:12-13 are the same as the 38 items listed in Ezekiel 27:12-24… There is, however, a connection between the commerce of the Temple and that of Tyre. The currency of Tyre was the only currency allowed in the Temple. Thus Revelation 18’s allusion to the commerce of Tyre may contain an allusion to the commerce of the Temple.​

Referring to “bodies and souls of men” that are among the merchandise in verse 13 McKenzie writes:

The leaders of the Jewish temple system were enslaving men’s souls by turning them away from Jesus and attempting to keep them under the old covenant. The Temple hierarchy had been in bed with Rome (so much so that Rome even appointed the high priest).

Jesus had accused the Jewish leadership of enslaving men’s souls by preventing them from entering the kingdom of God: “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in… Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. (Matt. 23:13, 15).

In Galatians 4:24-25 Paul tells how those under the old covenant were enslaved, as opposed to those under New Covenant who were free (Gal. 4:26-27). This gets back to the parallel between the two women/cities of Galatians 4:21-31 and the two women/cities of Revelation. Just as the “other woman” in Galatians had children who were enslaved (those staying under the old covenant, Gal. 4:24-25), so harlot Babylon had her slaves.​
 
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BABerean2

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Satan is the king of Mystery Babylon the Great. No pharisee, nor scribe.


Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

.
 
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