For Calvinists: Struggling with Matthew 22:14

StillGods

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Man...I wish I didn't post my question. I think it's best for me to not focus on this.

it's good you posted it. you have genuine concerns that are valid about the calvinist interpretation of that verse.
the rest of Christendom interpret that verse differently.
 
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Tania11

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Believe the Gospel--Christ died for everyone, and God wills that all be saved.

Predestination is not about God picking and choosing who is and isn't saved. Predestination is about God's gracious choosing us before the foundation of the world.

Scripture teaches that God has predestined us since before the foundation of the world. It does not teach us that God predestined anyone to damnation; on the contrary, we are told that God desires and so wills that everyone be saved--and indeed, Christ died for all.

From a Lutheran perspective this is why both Calvinism and Arminianism get it wrong--in fact both are two sides of the same coin, and rooted in a faulty theology and errant use of reason. That is, we'd say that the proper use of reason is ministerial (reason serves faith) not magisterial (reason rules over faith). Thus just because Scripture presents us with a paradox does not mean that we subvert the word of Scripture to conform to our sinful reason; but rather we confess the paradox in faith.

It is certainly reasonable to conclude that if God has predestined us to salvation, then it must follow that God chose, or at least passed over, the rest. But that isn't what Scripture teaches. Scripture, again, teaches that we have been predestined, but it does not teach that God passes anyone or has chosen to damn anyone. The usual prooftexts from Romans 9 to support this fail to account for the larger message and context of St. Paul's letter. Specifically this: People need to keep reading beyond chapter 9 of Romans, because Paul's conclusion doesn't come until chapter 11, "God consigned all to disobedience in order that He might have mercy on all" (Romans 11:32).

Thus we must confess this:

1) The Law condemns all men as sinners, for by sin man is unable to accomplish the righteous deeds as proscribed by the Law, and thus all man's works are reckoned as unrighteous on account of sin.

2) Because God is unwilling that any perish, but that all be saved, He sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law. Christ has accomplished, once and for all, the perfect and finished work for all universally.

3) It is by God's unconditional election and gracious will to predestine us in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we can be confident, that as we have heard the Gospel preached and proclaimed, and have been baptized into Christ, that we are indeed true sons and daughters of God.

4) It is not by some inscrutable will of God that God has predestined us, but rather through the revealed Means of the preaching of the Gospel and His Sacraments, through which we receive faith extra nos, apart from ourselves, as the pure gift of God and by which we are freely justified.

5) And so having heard and received the word, we can be confident that we are the possession of Jesus Christ, and thus the possession of God. And that all of God's word and promises are true and inviolate--what He has said cannot be unsaid, what He has done cannot be undone, what He has promised is certain and sure. Our sins are forgiven, we have received the righteousness of Jesus Christ, the Spirit dwells in us as the guarantee of these things, and so ours is the inheritance of everlasting life and the resurrection of the dead. Amen. The word of the Lord endures forever.

-CryptoLutheran
I had something that popped in my mind that's bothering me today. Isn't it God that forms all people? Wouldn't this mean He forms some for hell?
 
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St_Worm2

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I had something that popped in my mind that's bothering me today. Isn't it God that forms all people? Wouldn't this mean He forms some for hell?
Hello Tania, the Bible tells us that God created us upright/in His perfect image, but as the preacher tells us later, we sought out many devices .. e.g. Genesis 1:26-27; Ecclesiastes 7:29.

To be specific, God created our progenitors in His perfect image, but we, their progeny, are begotten in their tarnished image instead. The good news is, God began to remedy the problem for us before our first parents had left the Garden of God .. Genesis 3:21 :amen:

--David
 
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Tania11

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Hello Tania, the Bible tells us that God created us upright/in His perfect image, but as the preacher tells us later, we sought out many devices .. e.g. Genesis 1:26-27; Ecclesiastes 7:29.

To be specific, God created our progenitors in His perfect image, but we, their progeny, are begotten in their tarnished image instead. The good news is, God began to remedy the problem for us before our first parents had left the Garden of God .. Genesis 3:21 :amen:

--David
Thanks, man. Someone sent me a Spurgeon sermon and it kind of freaked me out. It was talking about double-predestination.
 
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St_Worm2

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Hello again @Tania11, I should add that predestination in the Bible is always to life (God does not need to work iniquity into hearts that are already filled with it .. e.g. Romans 3:10-12, 23; Ephesians 2:1-3).

There is a sense of a passive double-predestination that is implicit in the Bible however (which is what Spurgeon was, no doubt, referring to), because only those who are drawn by/given to Jesus by His Father will come to Him for salvation. Further, ~all~ who so drawn 1. will be saved and 2. will never be lost.

John 6
37 ~All~ that the Father gives Me ~will~ come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of ~all~ that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me ~draws~ him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been ~granted~ him from the Father.”

--David

Psalm 51
5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me
.
.
 
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Tania11

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Hello again @Tania11, I should add that predestination in the Bible is always to life (God does not need to work iniquity into hearts that are already filled with it .. e.g. Romans 3:10-12, 23; Ephesians 2:1-3).

There is a sense of a passive double-predestination that is implicit in the Bible however (which is what Spurgeon was, no doubt, referring to), because only those who are drawn by/given to Jesus by His Father will come to Him for salvation. Further, ~all~ who so drawn 1. will be saved and 2. will never be lost.

John 6
37 ~All~ that the Father gives Me ~will~ come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of ~all~ that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me ~draws~ him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been ~granted~ him from the Father.”

--David

Psalm 51
5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me
.
.
Thanks for your reply. You've been clearing my mind of all the fog and confusion I'm making. I could have gotten Spurgeon wrong.. something he said rubbed me the wrong way. I could've took it out of context. IDK, but I don't have to agree with it just because he said it.
 

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ViaCrucis

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I had something that popped in my mind that's bothering me today. Isn't it God that forms all people? Wouldn't this mean He forms some for hell?

Well, what does Scripture say?

The Scriptures say that God created man in His image and likeness. They say that God so loved the world that God sent His only-begotten Son so that all who believe in Him will not perish. They say that God demonstrates His love in that even when we were sinners Christ died for us. They say that God is the Savior of all people, especially those that believe. Etc and so on.

God didn't create anyone to be damned.
God wills that everyone be saved.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Tania11

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Well, what does Scripture say?

The Scriptures say that God created man in His image and likeness. They say that God so loved the world that God sent His only-begotten Son so that all who believe in Him will not perish. They say that God demonstrates His love in that even when we were sinners Christ died for us. They say that God is the Savior of all people, especially those that believe. Etc and so on.

God didn't create anyone to be damned.
God wills that everyone be saved.

-CryptoLutheran
TY. I know a person that uses Roman's 9, Judas and I think Saul for believing that God Predestines some for hell. How would you respond to the story of Judas?
 
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ViaCrucis

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TY. I know a person that uses Roman's 9, Judas and I think Saul for believing that God Predestines some for hell. How would you respond to the story of Judas?

Those who point to Romans 9 that God predestines some for hell, I always argue, need to keep reading St. Paul's epistle. If they did, they'd find themselves confronted with Romans 11:32.

If Judas was fated to betray the Lord, and was helpless to do so; that would render him non-culpable for the crime. We don't hold the tectonic plates culpable for earthquakes, nor do we hold gravity morally responsible for a ball falling and hitting someone on the head. If Judas was merely a product of fate, then he isn't responsible, he had no control over his actions, it's no different than a piece of software following its programming: 2+2=5, it always equals 5.

We do hold Judas culpable for his actions, because human beings are morally culpable agents. The bondage of the human will to sin has nothing to do with fate; it is not by Divine will that we are in bondage to sin, God did not predestine us to sin. Indeed, this is morally abominable, and we would therefore rightly hold God morally responsible for the destruction of 10 million lives in the Holocaust.

What it means is that I am held in bondage to sin, and thus cannot free myself to the life of righteousness with God that I so desperately need, and therefore I am in need of One from the outside to come and save me. And this, this is what God has predestined and willed.

When I look upon my baptism I can know that it wasn't me that saved me, instead I have God's word and assurance that I belong to Christ, chosen and predestined in Christ before the world began, by the wonderful and beautiful mercy and love of God. And that this is His will and desire for all: that all be saved, for indeed, Christ came to save all.

The only thing that stands between us and our salvation is us. And graciously, lovingly, kindly, and wonderfully, God rescues us from ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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