Get rid of Police????? I am very very confused.

timothyu

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Watching them take down statues.. not the city not the police .. but people right now and no one is stopping them. Holy Jesus
I don't condone the destruction but the old system back in the day supposedly worked for the people. Under this new system the people are subject to those running the system. The system is no longer a servant of the people. Hopefully the people will retaliate over that before it is too late, but I doubt it. The people have lost their credibility as a voice of the people just as the new order has planned, with the same hoodlums travelling about causing the same orchestrated anarchy paid for by the same institutional money across the globe. These staged destructive protests don't come cheap but the results are clear.
 
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Aussie Pete

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OK, this is 2020 and everyone has been cooped up for too long.

BUT.... the actions of a couple of demented police officers, that should not even had a badge.... carrying out an authenticity against a man and committing a felony....being arrested and charged for their crimes...

Somehow leads to looting and accusations that every police officer and every white person for that matter... is part of the problem.

SO... the conclusion is that we don't need police anymore?

Are you serious...

Has the world gone mad?

People who are burning the businesses of innocent people, many of color, looting and steeling their goods, causing huge costs to their neighborhoods and cities...

These people, these looters and vandals.. they say that we need less cops... less law.... less control of criminal behavior?

The people of the US better wake up. This used to be called "anarchy" and it is not good.

Yes, racism is wrong.. But when the reaction to a wrong is far worse of a wrong than what angered them... you have issues.

Even worse is when those in political power side with the masses who are out of control simply to keep their seat of power and entitlement.
In answer to your question, yes, the world has gone mad. While the USA descends into chaos, I'm wondering what China and Russia are thinking. What's Chinese for rofl?
 
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The Liturgist

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"Church Fathers?" [Matt 23:9] No thanks. I'll take our Lord's Word over those of others'. [Matt 5:38-48] Christ is not ambivalent in the slightest in His words: "Do not resist an evil man." 100% pacifist. No justification for war or deliberately harming another -- that is Christ's Word. I'm familiar with all the logic pretzel-twisting that many have come up with to simply dismiss what our Lord plainly teaches His followers on this matter.

Where in Scripture is there a justification for gainsaying Christ's teaching here so that it is acceptable to do any harm to another person?

Extra-Biblical "Fathers," "Traditions," "Councils," etc., there is no authority in them other than what flawed, mortal, human "wisdom" grants to them.

Let me ask you three straightforward questions: do you follow the Nicene Creed? Do you believe in the Trinity? Do you accept the standard 27 book New Testament canon?

The specific set of 27 books in our New Testament was declared canonical by Archbishop Athanasius of Alexandria, who years earlier, when Alexander of Alexandria, who had been tortured by Diocletian, was archbishop of that ancient city, the historic patriarchate of Mark the Evangelist, had defended the doctrine of the Trinity at Nicea. As the Protodeacon of the Church of Alexandria, Athanasius explained to the bishops assembled by Arius, who had many powerful supporters, the charges of heresy brought against Arius by the Church in Alexandria, because Arius had taught that Jesus Christ was not God Incarnate, not begotten as the Son of God, but rather created by God. He persuaded them to unanimously convict Arius of heresy and depose him from the priesthood, and to unanimously adopt the Nicene Creed. Later, the powerful backers of Arius led by the evil bishop of Nicomedia, Eusebius, got in the good graces of Emperor Constantine and especially his son Constantius; Constantine was baptized by Eusebius of Nicomedia on his deathbed*, and Constantius called a council of clergy hastily ordained to the episcopate to exile Athanasius, establish Arianism as the state religion of the Roman Empire, and persecute the Nicene Christians in Alexandria. For several years, Athanasius fought almost single handedly to defend the doctrine of the Trinity, which is why many scholars refer to him as Athanasius Contra Mundum (Against the World). It was not until a dozen years after his death that a Nicene Emperor again ruled the Roman Empire and the persecution of Nicene Christians only definitively stopped about 23 years after his death.

This is relevant because Athanasius also composed canon laws and made judicial decisions as the arch-superintendent (Archbishop, from the Greek Archepiskopos), of the Church of Alexandria and all Egypt. One such decision was whether soldiers returning from war would have to serve a penance before being readmitted to the Eucharist. Athanasius said no, military service was honorable, because of its defense of the weak among the public, and soldiers were to be admitted to communion and receive the Eucharist immediately on their return.

Police are simply soldiers who protect us from what we might call domestic sources of violence (by which I do not exclusively mean domestic violence, but rather all violence that would violate our person or deprive us of our freedoms the source of which is not a foreign military power).

Since Athanasius decided which books belong in the New Testament, and since he is the most importnt figure in the defense of the doctrines of the Trinity, the Incarnation of the Word, and the divinity of Christ as the only begotten Son of the Father, begotten, not created, and of one essence with the Father, very God of very God, by whom all things were made (John 1:1-18, Matthew 28:19), a creed he also worked to formulate, it seems to me very difficult for us to argue with his interpretation that military service (and by extension, police service), is honorable and not in itself worthy of penance.

Athanasius aside, if we turn to the Scriptures, it is clear that the Old Testament cannot be read in opposition to the New. God commanded Israel to form an army and to fight wars, and we find occasions where the Army of the Kingdom of Israel acted to defend that sacred kingdom of the Chosen People who were the kernel of the Catholic Church* of today. God does not change; since military and police actions are commanded in the Old Testament, including acts of law enforcement which are not specifically religious in nature, for example, those portions of the Torah dealing with disputes between neighbors over livestock, we can say that the military and law enforcement remain acceptable, and perhaps commanded, by God today.

* I do not mean the Roman Catholic Church but the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church we confess in the Creed, which is universal and orthodox; different Christians define it differently, I as a congregationalist one way, an Anglican, another way, a Roman catholic, another way, but however it is defined, the seed of the Church Catholic is in Abraham’s offspring, because it was into Israel that Christ was born.
 
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Rachel Rachel

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The idea, from what I've read, is to significantly change what the police do and when they are called upon. Guns and handcuffs and jail are an appropriate response to a bank robbery in progress, but they maybe aren't an appropriate response to a person having a psychotic episode, or a person who is drunk or high. Sending in a team of people with expertise in physical and mental health, whose job is to de-escalate the situation and perhaps treat the person who is out of control, rather than arresting them, could reduce the number of situations that escalate into police-related violence. I don't know if it's an idea that will work, but it's an idea to consider.
Clearly you don't know the reality of people having psychotic episodes or high on PCP, etc.
God help us all .
 
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PloverWing

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Clearly you don't know the reality of people having psychotic episodes or high on PCP, etc.
God help us all .
Nice jab.

My thoughts are inspired, in part, by a conversation I had last weekend with a member of my church who is an Emergency Room nurse. Sometimes patients come to the ER who are high or psychotic. The patients have to be calmed, and, if necessary, subdued, in order to be treated. Sometimes it takes a team of several people to subdue the patient. Sometimes it takes medication. So there may need to be physical force involved, if talking doesn't work, but the physical force can't involve killing or maiming the patient. It defeats the purpose of the ER if the medical staff kill or seriously injure the patients.

I don't know which of these ER techniques will work on the street, in which situations. I am not a medical or psychiatric professional. But I think it is an avenue to explore.

It wouldn't surprise me if many police officers already employ nonlethal techniques like these in many situations. Maybe we're just talking about giving police officers more extensive medical training, to enhance their skills. But if that's not practical, then including trained mental health personnel amongst the emergency responders could be an idea worth trying.
 
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Rachel Rachel

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Nice jab.

My thoughts are inspired, in part, by a conversation I had last weekend with a member of my church who is an Emergency Room nurse. Sometimes patients come to the ER who are high or psychotic. The patients have to be calmed, and, if necessary, subdued, in order to be treated. Sometimes it takes a team of several people to subdue the patient. Sometimes it takes medication. So there may need to be physical force involved, if talking doesn't work, but the physical force can't involve killing or maiming the patient. It defeats the purpose of the ER if the medical staff kill or seriously injure the patients.

I don't know which of these ER techniques will work on the street, in which situations. I am not a medical or psychiatric professional. But I think it is an avenue to explore.

It wouldn't surprise me if many police officers already employ nonlethal techniques like these in many situations. Maybe we're just talking about giving police officers more extensive medical training, to enhance their skills. But if that's not practical, then including trained mental health personnel amongst the emergency responders could be an idea worth trying.
It wasn't a jab, I was being quite literal.
Someone in the midst of either of those situations can't be immediately helped by mental health professionals. They usually can't even be stopped by tasers or rubber bullets. If you've never been a police officer in that situation, with all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about.
(My son in law is a cop and my daughter is an ER nurse.)
 
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Semper-Fi

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JacksBratt

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JacksBratt

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I am assuming that once all their demands are met they will no longer see themselves as victims and will freely move forward free to take advantage of their new responsibility for self now that barriers are removed?
Ya, sure....
 
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SaintCody777

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There is now an autonomous "state" within downtown Seattle literally run by the mobs called CHAZ, that is supposed to be a police free zone. Ironically, the rioters run the area and there are armed rioters and protesters enforcing the so called "police free zone" having checkpoints into the area to keep police out.
The logic runs back to the anarchists as there always had to be enforcement and government, which is ironically created in CHAZ, to keep a state afloat. The path to anarchy turns full circle but back to the starting point even worse.
Just look what happened in Rapture and the instability of has happened there (Romans 13:3)
 
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The Liturgist

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THE DEMANDS OF THE COLLECTIVE BLACK VOICES AT FREE CAPITOL HILL TO THE GOVERNMENT OF SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
THE DEMANDS OF THE COLLECTIVE BLACK VOICES AT FREE CAPITOL HILL TO THE GOVERNMENT OF SEATTLE…

Yep

“We demand the hospitals and care facilities of Seattle employ black doctors and nurses specifically to help care for black patients.”

The suggestion that white doctors and nurses violate the Hippocratic Oath in caring for, or rather failing to care for African Americans, with the same quality used for white patients, is racist to such an extent as to amount to blood libel. It is on a par with the evil legend that Jewish doctors would use the blood of Christian boys to treat diseases, which was repeated in the recent series Borgia (not to be confused with Showtime’s The Borgias, which is, as an aside, proof of widespread antisemitism in the mainstream European media, since canal+, Channel 4 and Netflix all carried that show, in which the future Pope Alexander VI is shown trying to keep his predecessor alive by hiring different doctors, including a Jewish doctor, and the scenes depicting the Jewish doctor are blood libel).
 
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BNR32FAN

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OK, this is 2020 and everyone has been cooped up for too long.

BUT.... the actions of a couple of demented police officers, that should not even had a badge.... carrying out an authenticity against a man and committing a felony....being arrested and charged for their crimes...

Somehow leads to looting and accusations that every police officer and every white person for that matter... is part of the problem.

SO... the conclusion is that we don't need police anymore?

Are you serious...

Has the world gone mad?

People who are burning the businesses of innocent people, many of color, looting and steeling their goods, causing huge costs to their neighborhoods and cities...

These people, these looters and vandals.. they say that we need less cops... less law.... less control of criminal behavior?

The people of the US better wake up. This used to be called "anarchy" and it is not good.

Yes, racism is wrong.. But when the reaction to a wrong is far worse of a wrong than what angered them... you have issues.

Even worse is when those in political power side with the masses who are out of control simply to keep their seat of power and entitlement.

Like I said in another thread if they did manage to get rid of the police force the government would declare marshal law and criminals would get a real taste of law and order. I say go for it, I’m not a criminal.
 
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Toro

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Anyone else feel like they woke up in a day time TV show?

Delirious_john_candy_movie.jpg


Coronavirus, murder hornets, riots/protests, disbanding/defunding police, lockdowns, economic collapse........
 
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John Helpher

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the actions of a couple of demented police officers

There's probably mroe than just 2 bad cops in America. This attempt to diminish the problem suggests you're not thinking about the problem rationally, which is what ends up perpetuating the problem.

that should not even had a badge

If they should not have a badge, then how did they get it? How do you ensure such inappropriate badge-getting doesn't continue to happen? Do you have any solutions to that problem, because if not it's just gonna keep happening.

carrying out an authenticity against a man and committing a felony

Actually, we don't know what he was doing. He didn't get a defense lawyer or a chance to share his side of the story. Maybe he was committing a crime, but because he was executed in the street he didn't get his due process.

That you are ready to dismiss the murder because you've already decided that of course the man was a criminal suggests you think he deserved it which means your other comments about bad police getting badges they shouldn't have essentially becomes lip service. Your real feeling on the issue is that cops should be allowed to execute those whom they've already decided are criminals without all that pesky due process.

You are part of the problem.

being arrested and charged for their crimes...Somehow leads to looting

Nope. You're still missing it. Looting happens because greedy people see an opportunity to take something for themselves. It happens all over the world and it doesn't just happen when a shop is broken into by supposed protestors. It can happen anywhere; employees loot their work, except this kind of looting has a more fancy-sounding name; it's called embezzlement and quite often happens at the hands of wealthy businessmen who are presumably too respectable for you to care about. It's only the black looters who are stealing TV's and whatever (the value of which would be paltry compared to most embezzlement schemes) that you seem to have a problem with.

A LOT of looting happens in government, especially when hidden by complex policies and powerful politicians with the connections to keep it quiet.

When your standards are inconsistent you lose credibility and demonstrate that you're arguing from an agenda rather than a sincere desire to seek out what is true and just.

SO... the conclusion is that we don't need police anymore?

Some people would conclude that. I don't agree with it, but I can understand why they'd come to that conclusion. Even your own half-hearted comments about "a couple" of bad police suggests that you're not prepared to deal with the problem decisively. When people aren't prepared to make real, genuine change, or that such changes simply will not fix the problem, (much like putting a bandaid on a person who's arm you just chopped off) then it makes sense that you may want to throw out the whole rotten system and start again with something new.

No one is saying they don't want safety or law and order, but many people are noticing that they're not getting law and order from the current system of policing. Presumably you, personally, do not experience the same problems with this system that some others do, but that does not mean the problems aren't real.

A persona genuinely interested in truth and justice will not ignore a problem simply because he is not adversely affected by that problem. The protests are meant to demonstrate that a large number of people are adversely affected by the problem. The protests are meant to get your attention; to communicate to you that these people need help; they want change.

Yes, racism is wrong.. But

Generally speaking, when people make some supposedly importnat statement and then follow it up with a "but", they're doing so because they do not think the previous statement really is important. Here's an example, "You've said some right things, but they are empty platitudes". Technically, I've complimented you, right? Buuuuut, the "but" lets you know the previous comment was not meaningful or sincere.

That's what you've just done with your comment about about racism. You're saying it's wrong because you know that's what you're supposed to say. It's the "right thing" to say. Buuut, you don't really believe it. You're comments indicate that what you really believe is that George Floyd deserved to be killed on the street because hey, he's just a criminal.

This is exactly why the problem is so difficult to change; people like you keep justifying and minimizing the bad behavior.
 
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The Liturgist

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That's what you've just done with your comment about about racism. You're saying it's wrong because you know that's what you're supposed to say. It's the "right thing" to say. Buuut, you don't really believe it. You're comments indicate that what you really believe is that George Floyd deserved to be killed on the street because hey, he's just a criminal.

That’s totally false. While I do believe police should have the ability to use lethal force if necessary when someone resists arrest, that was not the case in the murder of George Floyd, because he was already under control, and his death was due to obstruction of his airway by Officer Chauvin aggravated by the Fentanyl in his system, which is a respiratory depressant.

Its possible Officer Chauvin may have been exposed to fentanyl while conducting the arrest and was therfore high out of his mind; if I was his lawher I would aim for such a defense. Since even a tiny amount of fentanyl can have a huge impact on people who are not massively tolerant of opiods, as it is about a thousand times more powerful than morphine. Fentanyl is primarily a drug to be used in the treatment of the worst possible pain in terminally ill patients for who morphine no longer is effective.
 
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John Helpher

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Its possible Officer Chauvin may have been exposed to fentanyl while conducting the arrest and was therfore high out of his mind;

Ummm, are you suggesting Derek Chauvin, the arresting officer who murdered George Floyd was high on Fentynal at the time? And your suggestion is that perhaps it was George's fault that Derek was high, and that because Derek was high (presumably so high that he was out of his mind) he didn't realize he was killing George Floyd by stepping on his neck for more than 8 minutes?

So, following the logic, it was George Floyd who was high and he somehow then caused Derek Chauvin to become high, through a contact high during arrest?, but somehow so high that he lost his mind and didn't realize what he was doing? You believe that's what Derek's lawyer should argue?

In other words, it's George's fault and poor Derek is being unfalsely accused? My goodness, but this is exactly the kind of diminishing, protective, legitimizing spin that perpetuates the problem.

It strains credulity that Derek could have become so high through contact with George Floyd that he lost his mind, but EVEN IF that really were the case, there were several other cops around him who could have said something. Were they all high?

No, Liturgist; that is simply ridiculous. Derek may have been high; if he was it was by his own choice, but even then, he wasn't so high that he was out of his mind. The most likely scenario is that he wanted Floyd to suffer. It's quite possible that he did not realize Floyd would actually die, but as you've said, Floyd was already subdued with plenty of back up just standing there with their hands in their pockets. The only plausible explanation is that Derek wanted Floyd to feel punished. He wanted to inflict harm on him under the pretense of arrest and it went too far.

Stop protecting him with these weird gymnastics about how Derek got mysteriously high and became temporarily insane.
 
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timothyu

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So, following the logic, it was George Floyd who was high and he somehow then caused Derek Chauvin to become high, through a contact high during arrest?, but somehow so high that he lost his mind and didn't realize what he was doing?
Yep, a case of suicide.
 
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