The fifth seal great tribulation martyrs

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,691
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,797.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Why can’t all 4 horsemen be Christ?

The first horse can certainly be Christ based on the white color, the crown that was given him, and the other attributes listed.

The second horse is red which could refer to the red heifer. This rider takes peace from the earth and has a great sword. In Ephesians 6:17 it states the sword of the Spirit is the word of God. Christ certainly spoke the words of God. In Matthew 10:34 Jesus came not to send peace but a sword. Luke 12:51-53 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division. So Christ actually caused division or took away the peace.

The third horse is black which certainly can represent sin. The rider has a balance and is told the cost of wheat and barley. Wheat is refed to as believers in Matthew 13:30. Barley can be seen as sin that is remembered. In Numbers 5:15, concerning a jealous husband, it states “then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance”. The offering of barley meal brings into remembrance iniquity. So Christ sees what the cost will be to redeem, He ultimately (when the next seal is opened) pays the price for the wheat (takes on our black sin) but doesn’t purchase the barley (limited atonement).

The fourth horse is green <5515> which can represent new life for believers that are now the body of Christ. The riders name is death and hell follows with him. In 2 Corinthians 5:21 Christ became sin for us and in Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is death. In 1 Corinthians 15:55 “O death where is thy sting? O grave (or hell <86>), where is thy victory? ”. Hell follows with death in that they are both conquered or overcome by Christ. The power that was given over the fourth part of the earth refers back to the wheat which was 1 measure and the barley which was 3 measures. It is the world that continues to be able to physically kill the believers or 4th part despite Christ becoming death for us and overcoming it. I think this statement is simply reiterating the fact that physical acts against believers will continue until the end. When the next seal is opened those who were killed are told to rest a little season until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Jesus is not any of the horsemen, because Jesus did not initiate any of the things you are packaging as a result of his first coming... riding on the scene on a white horse. Jesus rode into Jerusalem riding a donkey.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,563
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,794.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
The bible prophets don't "say" that. You are applying your own scenario and interpretations in coming up with a theory, and timeline of events.
What I apply is the sequence as Written in Revelation.
The Seals; five already opened and the Sixth and Seventh to happen soon.
Then after the Temple is desecrated by The AC; comes the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
It is you that changes and shuffles them to suit your scenario.
According to Robert Whitelaw Noah was one of a few prophecies that came to pass as written. He says 88% of the time they did not. So we need to wait and see the fulfillment before speculating too much.
So you take the pronouncements of Robert Whitelaw, whoever he is; as inerrant truth?

Most prophecy remains unfulfilled because the time for its fulfilment has not come yet. When it does, we will surely know about it!
And as those prophesies that have been fulfilled, came to pass literally; like Jesus riding on a donkey, Zechariah 9:9, so we can expect some very dramatic events to happen soon!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

grafted branch

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 21, 2019
1,526
246
46
Washington
✟238,025.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Jesus is not any of the horsemen, because Jesus did not initiate any of the things you are packaging as a result of his first coming... riding on the scene on a white horse. Jesus rode into Jerusalem riding a donkey.

So there are a few more things that indicate it is Christ as the 4 horsemen.

The book with 7 seals in Revelation 5:1 would be the same as the Lambs book of life in Revelation 21:27 because only the Lamb was worthy to take the book and open the seals. The writing within and on the backside would then be the names of believers.

There are 4 beasts and each one tells John to come and see when one of the seals are opened. The first beast which is like a lion can be associated with Christ as the Lion of Judah, this is the white horse. The second beast is like a calf which can be associated with the red heifer which must be killed. That’s why the 2nd horseman takes peace, that they should kill one another. The third beast had a face like a man which represents the black horse and the sins of man that are weighed out. The fourth beast was like a flying eagle which is the green horse and once our sins are paid for and put on Christ we are now carried on eagle’s wings.

If the only issue you have with all this is that Jesus rode in on a donkey and not a white horse, I’m ok with this. I think there are too many other verses that associated the horsemen with Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,691
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,797.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
If the only issue you have with all this is that Jesus rode in on a donkey and not a white horse, I’m ok with this. I think there are too many other verses that associated the horsemen with Christ.
Jesus rides a white horse in Revelation 19 at his second coming. At his first coming Jesus rode into Jerusalem riding a donkey, fulfilling Zechariah 9:9.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What I apply is the sequence as Written in Revelation.
The Seals; five already opened and the Sixth and Seventh to happen soon.
Then after the Temple is desecrated by The AC; comes the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
It is you that changes and shuffles them to suit your scenario.

So you take the pronouncements of Robert Whitelaw, whoever he is; as inerrant truth?

Most prophecy remains unfulfilled because the time for its fulfilment has not come yet. When it does, we will surely know about it!
And as those prophesies that have been fulfilled, came to pass literally; like Jesus riding on a donkey, Zechariah 9:9, so we can expect some very dramatic events to happen soon!
It's a great study if you can find the book. Zillions of texts showing the prophecy and the outcome. Amazon had it for $600 the last I checked. But I got a ragged copy for much less.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
....put recapitulation theory on a timeline chart.

No chart is needed.

Christ returns with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are in the Olivet Discourse, at the end of Revelation chapter 6. Why are those present hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, unless the Lamb is present.

Christ returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others, in Revelation 11:15-18.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth, and death of Christ.

The Second Coming is portrayed in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew chapter 13.

Christ returns as a thief, at Armageddon, in Revelation 16:15-16.

Christ returns in chapter 19.

Christ returns when the fire comes, and the time of the judgment of the dead at the end of Revelation chapter 20. (See the fire at the return of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. See 2 Timothy 4:1 for the timing of the judgment of both the living, and the dead.)

.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,691
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,797.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Christ returns with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are in the Olivet Discourse, at the end of Revelation chapter 6. Why are those present hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, unless the Lamb is present.
Because they see Jesus in heaven before the throne of God. Which as a result and urging by the beast, false prophet, and Satan, the kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon. (btw, I just got out of eye surgery - tear duct bypass about an hour ago, and home now.)
Christ returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others, in Revelation 11:15-18.
No, God's plan to take the kingdoms of this world away from Satan's sway over them begins when the 7th angel sounds his trumpet) on my chart as well as the time of the reward of the saints.

upload_2020-6-11_10-37-51.jpeg


Christ returns as a thief, at Armageddon, in Revelation 16:15-16.

The sixth seal event happens without expectation to them warring with the beast in Daniel 11:40-45.

Christ returns in chapter 19.
I agree.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
To them who claim the events of the first sixth seals have happened already.

Revelation 7:13-14 proves that notion wrong.

The great multitude in Revelation 7:9-12 are them seen in Revelation 6 when the fifth seal is opened.


In Revelation 7:13-14. The elder answered the question that everyone is wondering - who is this great multitude....?

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I [*John] said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.

And he [*the elder] said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

________________________________________________________________

How did the elder (and John) know that they had come out of great tribulation?

It is because John and the elder in Revelation 6 both saw the red, the black, and the pale horses riders of the great tribulation. And they both had seen the great tribulation martyrs when the fifth seal was removed. Not all of them, for they were told to wait until their number was complete.

*my comment
Sorry, but you started in error so of course you will end in the same. It is the first FIVE seals that are already opened: the 5th being the martyrs of the church age. The 6th seal starts judgment - the very judgment those under the altar at the 5th seal are crying out for. The church has been at the 5th seal all this time, waiting for that final number.

You are mistaken again on that great crowd too large to number. What? do you imagine the number or martyrs will be a bigger number than the number of raptured saints? Not EVER: they will be a small subset of the resurrected/raptured number.

Have you ever been to a play where they close a curtain between acts? What happens behind the curtain? They are rearranging the set to fit the next act.

This is exactly what John is doing in chapter 7: before the 7th seal can be opened to start the HURT on earth (the trumpets) God had to rearrange the set: the 144,000 must first be sealed, and the church must first be moved from earth to heaven.

God accomplishes this and John writes what he sees and hears.

In other words, those under the altar and the great crowd are NOT RELATED.
The "great tribulation" here is the church age: this great crowd just raptured came out of the church age.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,563
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,794.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
It's a great study if you can find the book. Zillions of texts showing the prophecy and the outcome. Amazon had it for $600 the last I checked. But I got a ragged copy for much less.
So you don't believe what Jesus said: ...Father I thank You for hiding these things, [the prophesies] from the learned and wise.....Matthew 11:25
Anything written about the Prophetic Word before now; is merely human guesswork and should be rejected.
Most people will not know Gods plans until after it all happens. However Daniel 12:10 does say a few will understand, but it requires a person to clear his mind of all the false teachings and wrong ideas first.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Because they see Jesus in heaven before the throne of God. Which as a result and urging by the beast, false prophet, and Satan, the kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon. (btw, I just got out of eye surgery - tear duct bypass about an hour ago, and home now.)

Take care of the eye. I had LASIK surgery in the year 2000.

Do you think the signs in the sun, moon, and stars, in both the Olivet Discourse, and Revelation chapter 6 are just a coincidence?


Why did you ignore the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18? Your chart only includes crowns to the Saints. What about the others?


.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,691
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,797.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Take care of the eye. I had LASIK surgery in the year 2000.
Hope your lasek turned out well. I had the same tear duct bypass done on my right eye in 2017.


Do you think the signs in the sun, moon, and stars, in both the Olivet Discourse, and Revelation chapter 6 are just a coincidence?
No coincidence, they are the same event, near the end of the 7 years, right before Jesus descends to earth in Revelation 19.

Take a little closer look at my chart. It is divided into three sections, as to how Jesus responded to the disciples. Near term (the 70 ad Destruction of the Temple event); Long term, ie. the apostles used the term in "these last days" (as the Jews would be forced in to the nations, called the time of the gentiles, with Israel in exile; the end times, latter days, latter years (which I got those terms from Ezekiel 38.

For example, for Matthew just go from let to right. Matthew 24:4-13, then Matthew 24:14, then Matthew 24:15-51.

upload_2020-6-11_18-33-25.jpeg


* I improved my chart to annotate near term, long term, end times headings.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,691
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,797.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
It is the first FIVE seals that are already opened: the 5th being the martyrs of the church age.
Jesus in his first coming to start the church age did not ride a white horse like the person in first seal. Jesus rode into Jerusalem riding a donkey, fulfilling Zechariah 9:9.

Jesus at His Second Coming in Revelation 19 will be riding a white horse. Taking out his wrath on them, the bad guys, who carried out the killing of the martyrs of the great tribulation in the fifth seal.

Them who killed Christians down through the ages - are long gone, for Jesus to be taking out his wrath on them at his Second Coming. They will get their just deserts though at the great white throne judgment at the end of the millennium.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Jesus in his first coming to start the church age did not ride a white horse like the person in first seal. Jesus rode into Jerusalem riding a donkey, fulfilling Zechariah 9:9.

Jesus at His Second Coming in Revelation 19 will be riding a white horse. Taking out his wrath on them, the bad guys, who carried out the killing of the martyrs of the great tribulation in the fifth seal.

Them who killed Christians down through the ages - are long gone, for Jesus to be taking out his wrath on them at his Second Coming. They will get their just deserts though at the great white throne judgment at the end of the millennium.
No one ever said it was Jesus riding a SYMBOLIC horse. Symbolic of what? Righteous overcoming or conquering, not with physical weapons but with spiritual. John used white 17 times in Revelaton, and every other time to represent righteousness.

Don't even imagine the Holy spirit would have John use white once for evil: NEVER HAPPEN. Anyway, Jesus is who is OPENING the seals. What do we have then:

White to represent righteous
A bow to represent overcoming and spiritual warfare.
32 AD for timing.
A victor's crown, to represent ULTIMATE victory.

This is all to represent the church taking the gospel to the world. We end up victorious.

Of course it is Jesus on the white horse in Rev. 19. No question about that. Is that a red herring?
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,691
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,797.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
No one ever said it was Jesus riding a SYMBOLIC horse. Symbolic of what? Righteous overcoming or conquering, not with physical weapons but with spiritual. John used white 17 times in Revelaton, and every other time to represent righteousness.

Don't even imagine the Holy spirit would have John use white once for evil: NEVER HAPPEN. Anyway, Jesus is who is OPENING the seals. What do we have then:

White to represent righteous
A bow to represent overcoming and spiritual warfare.
32 AD for timing.
A victor's crown, to represent ULTIMATE victory.

This is all to represent the church taking the gospel to the world. We end up victorious.

Of course it is Jesus on the white horse in Rev. 19. No question about that. Is that a red herring?
That post of yours was a lot of spin city, lamad.

The first rider, the one on the white horse, was given a crown - he will be a king. The other riders do not have crowns, not kings, so they each figuratively are destiny... of what is to take place during the great tribulation.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So you don't believe what Jesus said: ...Father I thank You for hiding these things, [the prophesies] from the learned and wise.....Matthew 11:25
Anything written about the Prophetic Word before now; is merely human guesswork and should be rejected.
Most people will not know Gods plans until after it all happens. However Daniel 12:10 does say a few will understand, but it requires a person to clear his mind of all the false teachings and wrong ideas first.
Let's wait and see how the ones yet to be fulfilled play out. Not create false prophecies out of them which is the norm today.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
They will get their just deserts though at the great white throne judgment at the end of the millennium.

When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


When is the judgment of the dead in Revelation chapter 20, and why is it also in Revelation 11:18?

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:


Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.


Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."


(Pastor Wagner on problems with the Premill doctrine.)

.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
That post of yours was a lot of spin city, lamad.

The first rider, the one on the white horse, was given a crown - he will be a king. The other riders do not have crowns, not kings, so they each figuratively are destiny... of what is to take place during the great tribulation.
So this king: what is to be his end?
The red horse: Europe, the Middle East and Africa have always had wars
The black horse: famine: There have always been famines in this area of the world.
Pestilence: where did the black plague hit - twice at least? Europe.

These are to represent CHURCH AGE. What did Jesus say about these very things?
"The end is not yet."
The spin is on your side of this.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,691
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,797.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
So this king: what is to be his end?
He will be cast alive into the lake of fire.

The red horse: Europe, the Middle East and Africa have always had wars
The black horse: famine: There have always been famines in this area of the world.
Pestilence: where did the black plague hit - twice at least? Europe.
The red horse, then black horse, the pale horse - are sequential, as the events get progressive worse, not sporadic spread across time.

These are to represent CHURCH AGE. What did Jesus say about these very things?
"The end is not yet."
The spin is on your side of this.

The end of this present world of man ruling himself, and the end of the mystical kingdom called Babylon the Great of Satan and his angels holding sway of the world. The disciples did not ask him what would be the end of the church age.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,691
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,797.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
The parts that you highlighted in black and blue correspond to Daniel 12:2-3.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

It is a broadly based statement, that covers the rapture and over a thousand years later the great white throne judgment.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
He will be cast alive into the lake of fire.


The red horse, then black horse, the pale horse - are sequential, as the events get progressive worse, not sporadic spread across time.



The end of this present world of man ruling himself, and the end of the mystical kingdom called Babylon the Great of Satan and his angels holding sway of the world. The disciples did not ask him what would be the end of the church age.

So this crown of victory does not fit him now, does it? This crown given at the first seal is a victor's crown, specifying ultimate victory according to the commentators.

Next, your theory does not fit the text of the 4th seal: power is given unto THEM: the red horse and rider, the black horse and rider and the pale horse and rider. Notice that the white horse and rider are left OUT of this mix. Why? Because He is righteous and these are not. He is to represent the church and these are to represent the devil's attempts to STOP the church.

You and I are just not going to agree on this.
 
Upvote 0