Can anyone undeniably prove Zechariah 14:2-3,12, have already been fulfilled?

DavidPT · Jun 11, 2020

grafted branch said:
Is the 1,000 years the kingdom of God? If so, according to Galatians 5:20-21, people who commit dissention can’t inherit it.

The thousand years are not the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is everlasting. The thousand years are simply the first thousand years of it.

grafted branch · Jun 11, 2020

DavidPT said:
During the thousand years the saints would be living inside of the city. These that are to go up would not be living inside of the city. The ones that are saved would be living inside the city where Jesus is dwelling, and not outside of the city where unsaved mortals are dwelling.

I don’t really disagree with what you said, it sounds very similar to the partial preterits point of view. The people living in the New Jerusalem are the ones that inherited the kingdom and are currently there spiritually and those living outside New Jerusalem are the unbelievers. I guess the only difference is futurists are looking for it to happen physically while preterits have it as a spiritual event.

sovereigngrace · Jun 11, 2020

shilohsfoal said:
Your points are not biblical.

Personal opinion will not cut it.

sovereigngrace · Jun 11, 2020

DavidPT said:
Assuming Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning during the thousand years, and assuming the thousand years are post the 2nd coming, what comes after the thousand years? Is it not satan's little season followed by this at the end----and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them?

Does it look like any of these inherited the kingdom of God during the thousand years, if after the thousand years, these people committing dissension during the thousand years, they are then devoured by fire at the end of satan's little season? During the thousand years the saints would be living inside of the city. These that are to go up would not be living inside of the city. The ones that are saved would be living inside the city where Jesus is dwelling, and not outside of the city where unsaved mortals are dwelling.

You are not addressing GB's enquiry.

Proverbs 2:21-22 states: “For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.”

Even in the Old Testament, when the new age or world is mentioned, it is always identified exclusively with the righteous. This is not strange when we consider it is a prepared place for a prepared people. This is an arrangement where the wicked and wickedness are prohibited from.

Psalm 37:9-11 says, “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait `upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”

Again, this is a truth that is repeated clearly and unambiguously throughout both Testaments.

Psalm 37:22 says, “For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.”

The wicked are not worthy to inherit the new glorified earth and the perfect age to come.

Psalm 37:28-36 continues, “For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever ... Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.”

Here, “evildoers” and “the wicked” are synonymous titles that refer to the unrighteous whereas the designations “those that wait upon the LORD,” “the meek” and “His saints” refer to the righteous. The meek are the glorified believers. They are the antithesis of the wicked. Can you not see that? There are only ever 2 peoples. The meek alone possess the new earth - those that have been redeemed by His precious blood.

Psalm 25:12-13 says: “What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.”

This is the truth that is repeated by Christ in the New Testament. We see that confirmed in Matthew 5:5 saying, “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.”

This current earth must be perfected. It must be glorified. It must be brought back to the paradise it was before the fall. Every time Scripture speaks of the believer receiving his inheritance (the kingdom/earth) it also shows the wicked receiving their eternal punishment.

The glorified saints are said to inherit the earth. This is assuredly talking about a new glorified earth, not this current corrupt arrangement that they have just departed. Their inheritance is not another period of corruption, rebellion and despair. They have just escaped that. The promised earth in view is actually depicted as a reward for the faithful. It cannot therefore be shared with the wicked.

1 Corinthians 6:9 also confirms: “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?”

According to Scripture the ungodly are forbidden from this new glorified earth. The wicked are left outside the eternal kingdom.

When Jesus comes it is the end! The sheep “inherit the kingdom” (Matthew 25:34) and “life eternal” (Matthew 25:46) whereas the goats are cast “into everlasting fire” (Matthew 25:41) and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46).

1 Corinthians 15:50 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

This reading makes plain, “flesh and blood” or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last vestige of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer.

The new earth and the age to come is reserved solely for God’s people. The wicked will not see Christ’s face in the new arrangement because they are not qualified to inherit it. They will be destroyed at His glorious second advent.

At Christ’s return God’s people “all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge (or full discernment) of the Son of God, unto a man perfect (or andra teleion), unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:13).

We have obviously not arrived here yet, and will not arrive here until these corruptible fallen bodies are changed. To suggest otherwise is misunderstand God’s truth, deny reality and ignore the whole dichotomy between this age and the age to come. The usage of the Greek word teleios suggests ‘needing nothing further for their completeness’.

It is only at Christ return, and only then, when creation and the creature be at one with the Creator. All corruption and rebellion will be finally and eternally banished.

sovereigngrace · Jun 11, 2020

DavidPT said:
Assuming Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning during the thousand years, and assuming the thousand years are post the 2nd coming, what comes after the thousand years? Is it not satan's little season followed by this at the end----and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them?

Does it look like any of these inherited the kingdom of God during the thousand years, if after the thousand years, these people committing dissension during the thousand years, they are then devoured by fire at the end of satan's little season? During the thousand years the saints would be living inside of the city. These that are to go up would not be living inside of the city. The ones that are saved would be living inside the city where Jesus is dwelling, and not outside of the city where unsaved mortals are dwelling.

In your paradigm, your millennial inhabitants, en-masse in their billions, show their true colors by siding with Lucifer in the biggest revival of Satanism in history. All this in your supposed perfect pristine paradise of an earth with unparalleled, historic and wholesale submission to Christ! This whole portrayal is a mess, and a massive bust for Christ. How could He be fooled by their yearly pilgrimage to Jerusalem and their feigned worship?

sovereigngrace · Jun 11, 2020

DavidPT said:
I have already clearly explained in this thread, that if Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning post the 2nd coming, that leaves us but 2 options. Either what is recorded in those verses, it will be like that throughout all eternity, or there has to be a period of time post the 2nd coming that would prevent that from happening. Assuming the latter, how can that period of time not be the thousand years and satan's little season?

What is in question here, what period of time does the following occur during----shall even go up from year to year?

Who is that are supposed to do that? answer: every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem in verse 2.

What happens if they refuse to go up? answer: verses 17-19.

According to Amils,when are verses 17-19 meaning? Before all nations gather against Jerusalem? Or after all nations gather against Jerusalem? Before the LORD shall go forth and fight against those nations? Or after the LORD shall go forth and fight against those nations? Before verse 12 is fulfilled? Or after verse 12 is fulfilled?

According to Premils, when are verses 17-19 meaning? Before all nations gather against Jerusalem? Or after all nations gather against Jerusalem? Answer: after. Before the LORD shall go forth and fight against those nations? Or after the LORD shall go forth and fight against those nations? Answer: after. Before verse 12 is fulfilled? Or after verse 12 is fulfilled? Answer: after.

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

When do Amils think this is already true? Between the first and 2nd advent? Or after the 2nd advent? Before 70 AD? Or after 70 AD?

While Zechariah spoke in literal old covenant terms, he was looking forward in Zechariah 14 to Christ and the expanse of the Gospel in this new covenant period to the Gentiles. He is our covering. He is the fulfilment of the Feast of Tabernacles feast. Zechariah 14 is talking about salvation coming to Israel "in Christ" 2,000 years ago and in turn talking about the spiritual and natural blessings that would come to the Gentiles who embraced Christ.

Jesus delivered us from spiritual bondage, which Egypt symbolizes. There is no lapse back to abolished OT rituals, i.e. animal sacrifices. When people submit their lives to Him then blessing ensues. When they reject Christ then judgement ensues. That is all Zechariah 14 is saying. Simple!

Christ’s appearance at His First Advent was the fulfilment of the Feast of Tabernacles. Christ has become our permanent resting place and covering (Hebrews 4). There is no need to introduce and old impotent system that Christ abolished in His person and ministry. Zechariah basically described spiritual truths pertaining to the new covenant period in terms he was familiar with. He was not blessed with a full revelation of atoning work of Christ. Whilst the OT saints had a veil over them in regard to the new covenant we today have the benefit of looking back and seeing that fulfillment in Christ. There is therefore no return to OT rituals or temple sacrifices in Zechariah 14 but rather a veiled prediction of what Christ accomplished at the cross.

Zechariah 14 describes the global worship of God and identifies it specifically with one of the Jewish feasts the feast of tabernacles. Because Zechariah’s audience was exclusively Old Testament Jews, he tries to depict the impending New Testament era/economy in terms that would be easily understood by the listener/reader. Whilst the detail described in Zechariah 14 was presented in terms of the law (which his reader could fully relate to), it does not in any way suggest a return to the law; rather, the detail has new covenant realities today.

The prophecy was not intended to be a scrupulous literal account of the new economy but rather a general overview of this new arrangement. When the Old Testament prophets described an improved economy, they described it in terms that made sense to the old covenant Israelites to whom they were writing. Thus, it is logical that a future state would be described in old covenant terms, even though these terms would not be an exact outline of the approaching condition.

The idea that Zechariah is predicting a return to old covenant worship is preposterous and is dismissed by numerous New Testament Scripture. Christ abolished every imperfect ordinance 2,000 years ago. The old system of sacrifices (types) ended at Calvary when Christ became the final sacrifice – forever. Why would God restore animal sacrifices when He sent His Son to make one final all-sufficient sacrifice for sin? It is wrong to place greater weight on a symbolic Old Testament prophecy than to the repeated clear, simple and literal teaching of the New-Testament revelation. After all, it is the complete revelation of God’s truth.

Dave L · Jun 12, 2020

DavidPT said:
Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

There is still verses 16-19 to consider, and that they can't even be fulfilled until these 2 verses above are fulfilled first. We therefore need to keep that in mind.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

What can't be ignored in verse 16 is this part....shall even go up from year to year. That obviously has to mean, when verse 16 begins coming to pass, there have to be years following, in order for these in verse 16 to fulfill during.

If anyone can undeniably prove Zechariah 14:2-3 has already been fulfilled, that would indicate it's highly probable that verses 16-19 are coming to pass in this age, though it obviously wouldn't be meaning in a literal sense, since no would be literally going up to Jerusalem from year to year, where currently the occupants are unbelieving Jews who have main control of that city.

But if one can't prove Zechariah 14:2-3 has already been fulfilled, that clearly indicates that neither can they prove verses 16-19 have already been fulfilled.

That has to mean the fulfillment of both Zechariah 14:2-3 and verses 16-19, these are future still. That has to mean that once verses 16-19 begin coming to pass, there has to be extra years remaining in order for them to go up from year to year or not go up from year to year.

If we are already in the end of this age, as we speak, and when verses 16-19 begin coming to pass, where is that going to logically place the needed years that they are required to go up during? Is it not going to place these years post the 2nd coming? What should we assume about these events that are recorded in verses 16-19, should they be coming to pass post the 2nd coming? That it will be like that for all eternity? How could it not be if there is no period of time post the 2nd coming that could prevent that from happening? What we need to ask ourselves, then. Is there a period of time post the the 2nd coming that could maybe prevent that from happening? Yes there is, as a matter fact. It's the same period of time Amils claim we have already been living in, the thousand years.

The way it looks to me, unless one can first prove that Zech 14:2-3 has already been fulfilled, that same one for sure can't prove that I am wrong to conclude that verses 16-19 will be coming to pass post the 2nd coming, and not prior to the 2nd coming instead.

I would like to point out a cpl of more things as well. Not only does one need to prove verse 2-3 have already been fulfilled, one has to also prove verse 12 has already been fulfilled.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

What is recorded in this verse, verse 12, is not what happens to the ones being surrounded in Jerusalem, but happens to the ones surrounding them. If 70 AD is meant in verse 2, I would love to see anyone prove that verse 12 is what happened to the Romans at the time. As to verse 12, verses 16-19 can't even come to pass until verse 12 comes to pass first. In verse 12 there are no survivors that came against Jerusalem in verse 2. In verses 16-19 there are survivors of the nations that came against Jerusalem in verse 2. How do we square this to where there is no contradiction, then? Simple. The ones meant in verse 12 actually fought against Jerusalem. The ones in verses 16-19, though they were of these same nations that fought against Jerusalem, they themselves never fought against Jerusalem, so God decides to spare them instead.

The point of this thread can then be summed up like this. If it can be proved that Zechariah 14:2-3, plus verse 12, has already been fulfilled, then there is good chance Premils have been misunderstanding verses 16-19 this entire time, since Premils see them fitting post the 2nd coming, and not prior to the 2nd coming instead. It is verses such as 16-19 that further lead me personally to conclude Premil rather than Amil. If verses 16-19 are meaning post the 2nd coming, but that there is no period of time following the 2nd coming, this would indicate that verses 16-19 will be like that throughout all of eternity since there would be no period of time, such as a thousand years and a little season after the 2nd coming, in order to prevent what is recorded in verses 16-19 from continuing forever and ever like that.

Assuming verses 16-19 are post the 2nd coming, what seems more reasonable, then? That what is recorded in those verses, that it continues like that forever and ever? Or, that there is a period of time after the 2nd coming that prevents those things from continuing forever and ever like that?

Read it symbolically and you will be clued in. Read it literally and you won't understand Christian basics.

shilohsfoal · Jun 12, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Once again, you totally avoided all my points. Unfortunately, this is all-to common when engaging with Premils!

Dave L said:
Read it symbolically and you will be clued in. Read it literally and you won't understand Christian basics.

You believe Jerusalem being attacked by many nations, the women being raped and the people being killed or taken captive are symbolically Christian basics?
What could Israeli women being raped possibly have anything to do with Christian basics?

Dave L · Jun 12, 2020

shilohsfoal said:
You believe Jerusalem being attacked by many nations, the women being raped and the people being killed or taken captive are symbolically Christian basics?
What could Israeli women being raped possibly have anything to do with Christian basics?

What does it symbolize in view of Christian warfare? Including the horrible martyrdoms under Nero and other Antichrists?

shilohsfoal · Jun 12, 2020

Dave L said:
What does it symbolize in view of Christian warfare? Including the horrible martyrdoms under Nero and other Antichrists?

So you believe men violently attacking a women and inserting thier penis into a woman's vagina is the same as a Christian being beheaded?

You obviously have never been violently raped nor have you even considered how bad it is. But if you think you have expirienced it by being killed you go ahead tell the world just how bad your expirience was.Rape victims live the rest of their lives with ptsd. Don't even try to compare anything to it. Rape is rape and there is no spiritualizing it.
A woman being raped is a woman being raped. It has nothing to do with being a Christian.

Zao is life · Jun 12, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The heavenly city, yes.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The phrase "the beloved city" simply refers the redeemed of God who are on earth before Jesus comes who will be surrounded by the wicked (Gog and Magog).

Satan who will deceive the Gog-Magog crowd is only cast into the lake of fire 1,000 years later than the beast that gathers its armies together for the battle of Armageddon - and this after Satan has been bound for 1,000 years following the battle of Armageddon (according to the book which is the Revelation of Jesus Christ).

Consider how the following scriptures all relate to one another and to the Kingdom of Christ:-

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now (Greek: nun, "of present time) we see not yet all things put under him.

Psalm 2:8 Ask of Me, and I shall give the nations for Your inheritance; and the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would fight so that I might not be delivered to the Jews. But now (Greek: nun, "of present time) My kingdom is not from here.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

1 Corinthians 15:15-28 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.

for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet. The last enemy made to cease is death. For He put all things under His feet. But when He says that all things have been put under His feet, it is plain that it excepts Him who has put all things under Him. But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.

Psalm 8:3-6 When I look at Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have established; what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him?

For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor. You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet.

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now (Greek: nun, "of present time) we see not yet all things put under him.

Genesis 1:26-28 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth.

Christ is the Son of Man, the last Adam. The thousand years is all about Christ and the reign of Christ, before He hands the Kingdom back to God the Father.

Dave L · Jun 12, 2020

shilohsfoal said:
So you believe men violently attacking a women and inserting thier penis into a woman's vagina is the same as a Christian being beheaded?

You obviously have never been violently raped nor have you even considered how bad it is. But if you think you have expirienced it by being killed you go ahead tell the world just how bad your expirience was.Rape victims live the rest of their lives with ptsd. Don't even try to compare anything to it. Rape is rape and there is no spiritualizing it.
A woman being raped is a woman being raped. It has nothing to do with being a Christian.

Symbolism = make out of it what you will. In this case = very bad.

sovereigngrace · Jun 12, 2020

shilohsfoal said:
So you believe men violently attacking a women and inserting thier penis into a woman's vagina is the same as a Christian being beheaded?

You obviously have never been violently raped nor have you even considered how bad it is. But if you think you have expirienced it by being killed you go ahead tell the world just how bad your expirience was.Rape victims live the rest of their lives with ptsd. Don't even try to compare anything to it. Rape is rape and there is no spiritualizing it.
A woman being raped is a woman being raped. It has nothing to do with being a Christian.

There is a mixture of literal and figurative detail in many passages in Scripture (OT and NT).

sovereigngrace · Jun 12, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Satan who will deceive the Gog-Magog crowd is only cast into the lake of fire 1,000 years later than the beast that gathers its armies together for the battle of Armageddon - and this after Satan has been bound for 1,000 years following the battle of Armageddon (according to the book which is the Revelation of Jesus Christ).

Consider how the following scriptures all relate to one another and to the Kingdom of Christ:-

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now (Greek: nun, "of present time) we see not yet all things put under him.

Psalm 2:8 Ask of Me, and I shall give the nations for Your inheritance; and the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would fight so that I might not be delivered to the Jews. But now (Greek: nun, "of present time) My kingdom is not from here.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

1 Corinthians 15:15-28 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.

for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet. The last enemy made to cease is death. For He put all things under His feet. But when He says that all things have been put under His feet, it is plain that it excepts Him who has put all things under Him. But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.

Psalm 8:3-6 When I look at Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have established; what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him?

For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor. You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet.

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now (Greek: nun, "of present time) we see not yet all things put under him.

Genesis 1:26-28 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth.

Christ is the Son of Man, the last Adam. The thousand years is all about Christ and the reign of Christ, before He hands the Kingdom back to God the Father.

The kingdom is here spiritually now. It will come in all its final perfect glory when Jesus comes. After that there will be no more sin, sinners or Satan.

Rev 17-19 is focused on the fate of the beast. Rev 20 is focused on the fate of the devil. These parallel and correlate.

shilohsfoal · Jun 12, 2020

Dave L said:
Symbolism = make out of it what you will. In this case = very bad.

It's very bad to try to make rape into anything other than what it is and it has nothing to do with Christian symbolism.
If scripture says the women of Jerusalem will be raped then they will. I feel sorry for them and their children. It would have been better had they never conceived. It would have been better had they themselves had never been born.

DavidPT · Jun 12, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
In your paradigm, your millennial inhabitants, en-masse in their billions, show their true colors by siding with Lucifer in the biggest revival of Satanism in history. All this in your supposed perfect pristine paradise of an earth with unparalleled, historic and wholesale submission to Christ! This whole portrayal is a mess, and a massive bust for Christ. How could He be fooled by their yearly pilgrimage to Jerusalem and their feigned worship?

Isn't that what satan and billions of angels basically did as well? Was not satan and these billions of angels initially in good standing with God? Did not satan and these billions of angels rebel against God eventually? Was not the paradise satan and these billion of angels dwelling in before they rebelled, a perfect paradise? Did not satan and these billions of angels show their true colors when they rebelled? If satan and these billions of angels could literally be in the presence of God, then literally rebel against God, one can accept that that happened. But if humans were to do something similar, one can't accept that something like that could happen, though?

shilohsfoal · Jun 12, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
There is a mixture of literal and figurative detail in many passages in Scripture (OT and NT).

Zechariah 14 literally matches many other literal scriptures.
Why people want to take scripture which literally says it's about Jerusalem or Israel and try to make it out to be about themselves is folly.They believe everything is all about them. They believe the world revolves around them.

DavidPT · Jun 12, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
There is a mixture of literal and figurative detail in many passages in Scripture (OT and NT).

Probably except for Revelation 20, right? Nothing is literal in that chapter. Especially the thousand years.

DavidPT · Jun 12, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The thousand years is all about Christ and the reign of Christ, before He hands the Kingdom back to God the Father.

IMO, this sums it up nicely.

DavidPT · Jun 12, 2020

shilohsfoal said:
Zechariah 14 literally matches many other literal scriptures.
Why people want to take scripture which literally says it's about Jerusalem or Israel and try to make it out to be about themselves is folly.They believe everything is all about them. They believe the world revolves around them.

I guess we will know soon enough if Zechariah 14:2 is meaning in the literal sense or not. If we hear of women being raped there any time soon, we know to take that verse in the literal sense. But until then, we really don't know for certain one way or the other, IMO.

Can anyone undeniably prove Zechariah 14:2-3,12, have already been fulfilled?

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