Why do people hate the Seventh Day Adventists?

LoveGodsWord · Jun 11, 2020

Andrewn said:
I agree with everything in that post. I wouldn't limit sin to the 10 commandments but it includes the 10 commandments. My only question is how do you define "knowledge?"

Ok great I am glad this post rectified any misunderstandings. If you do a scriopture word study in your concordance on "knowledge" you will see that "knowledge" is in reference to the "Word of God" and what they teach on a particular topic or subject.

Andrewn said:
Are you saying that if God has revealed to me that the Sabbath is on Sunday then I am OK? I know pastors who take their rest day on Mondays, is everything OK, so long they believe in resting in resting one day of the week?

No dear friend. I posted that earlier that God's Sabbath is not on Sunday or the first day of the week. It never has been. It has always been on the "seventh day" of the week that God blessed, set apart from all the other days of the week and made a Holy day of rest from work for all mankind at the end of creation *GENESIS 2:1-3; MARK 2:27.

Andrewn said:
Or are you saying that since we've heard from SDA's that Sabbath rest should be on Saturdays, then Christians are not following a commandment they have knowledge of?

We can only find the truth of God's Word as we become like children, lay down our pre conceived ideas and come to JESUS through his Word asking God to be our guide and teacher *MATTHEW 18:3; JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 7:17; JOHN 8:31-32; 1 JOHN 2:24 according to God's new covenant promises *HEBREWS 8:11 we can never know the truth of God's Word *ISAIAH 55:6-9; JEREMIAH 17:5; MATTHEW 15:3-9. We must prayerfully seek JESUS for his Spirit *JOHN 14:26 and be like the faithful Bareans * ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 17:10-11, to know the truth of God's Word *JOHN 17:17; JOHN 8:31-32. These promises are conditional on seeking JESUS with all of our heart to know God's truth * JEREMIAH 29:13. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. According to the scriptures God is a Spirit and those who worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 4:23-24. God is calling his people where ever they may be *JOHN 10:16 to hear his Voice (the Word) believe his Word and follow him *JOHN 10:26-27.

Andrewn said:
I should also ask, how do you spend Saturdays? What does "rest" mean to you?

Good question.

HOW DO WE KEEP THE SABBATH?

WHAT DOES GOD'S 4TH COMMANDMENT SAY?

EXODUS 20:8-11
[8], Remember the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day)
[9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
[10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY>
[11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.

WHAT DAY IS GOD'S SABBATH?

v10 The SEVENTH DAY of the week. (Saturday)

WHEN DOES THE SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK START?

GENESIS 1:4-5
[4], And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
[5], And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

A day in God's time is the night (darkness) and the light make up one day. The DAY in God's WORD starts at SUNSET and ends the following SUNSET. So God's 4th Commandment Sabbath would start Friday at SUNSET and end Saturday at SUNSET.

ALL UNECCESSARY WORK TO BE DONE BEFORE FRIDAY SUNSET

EXODUS 16:22-23
[22], And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
[23], And he said to them, This is that which the LORD has said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath to the LORD: bake that which you will bake to day, and seethe that you will seethe; and that which remains over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

MARK 15:42, And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath

The preparation day is the 6th day of the week. This includes preparing to stop all business and secular work as well as any domestic work; cooking, cleaning; shopping, buying and selling that can be done on any other day of the week.

IT IS LAWFUL TO DO GOOD ON THE SABBATH?

MATTHEW 12:5-12
[5], Or have you not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
[6], But I say to you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
[7], But if you had known what this means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the guiltless.
[8], For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day
[9], And when he was departed from there, he went into their synagogue:
[10], And, behold, there was a man who had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
[11], And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
[12], How much then is a man better than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

MARK 2:27, And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

WHAT IS LAWFUL ON GOD'S SABBATH?

1. Remembering the creator and his creation (Exod 20:8-11)
2. Rest from all unnecessary work (Ecodus 20:10-11)
3. Doing good (Matt 12:12)
4. Prayer (Acts 16:13; Matt 21:13)
5. Worship the creator (Isaiah 58:13-14; Ex 34:14; 1KING 9:6; Rev 14:6-12)

Song, praise, bible study, helping others, preaching the gospel, resting, prayer, seeking God, remembering the creator and his creation. Walking in nature, going to church with like minded believers. (too many scriptures)

WHAT IS NOT LAWFUL ON GOD'S SABBATH?

WORK; all business and secular work as well as any domestic work; cooking, cleaning; shopping, buying and selling that can be done on any other day of the week and anything to do with work (Exodus 20:8-11; Ex 16:22-23; Matt 21:13).

.............

There is no purpose in FOLLOWING any of God's LAWs including the SABBATH if it is NOT done through FAITH that works by LOVE because it is ONLY as GOD writes his LAW to LOVE then we can take up our beds to follow him. LOVE is the fulfilling of GOd's LAW in those who BELIEVE (Rom 13:8-10)

Hope this is helpful.

God bless

LoveGodsWord · Jun 11, 2020

klutedavid said:
Just a small correction here.

The Sabbath has not been moved from one day to another.

The day Christ arose and was witnessed by the apostles, is the day that the early church gathered to celebrate. The church gathers not to rest but to worship and rejoice.

All Christian catechisms do not say the Sabbath is on Sunday. Nor do all Christian churches even have catechisms.

We Gentiles are not under the law and are not required to obey the letter of the law. We have just one outstanding debt to Jesus and that is to love others, just as He loved us.

No one is under the law unless they stand before God guilty of breaking the law *ROMANS 3:19-20. The same as no one loves JESUS if they break his commandments *JOHN 14:15. The same as no one loves their neighbore if they lie, steal, murder and commit adultery with their spouse etc etc. The same as no one loves God if they make idols in their lives and bow down to worship them, use God's name in vain and break his Sabbath commandment. According to the scriptures in the new covenant Gentiles are grafted in to God's ISRAEL. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL then you have no part in God's new covenant promise of a new heart and to be born again to love.

klutedavid · Jun 11, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello Andrewn, nice to meet you.

You have your facts wrong here dear friend but let me share with you why in order to help with any misunderstandings you may have. I pray this may be helpful to some.

According to the scriptures (not catechisms which are man made teachings), SDA's believe, God's people are are in every church who are living up to all the knowledge that God has revealed to them. God knows that most of the world has been deceived into disobeying his 4th commandment and in times of ignorance God does not hold us accountable for sin until he gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word and we reject his Word and continue in sin *JAMES 4:17.

When each of us receive a knowledge of the truth of God's Word according to the scriptures God calls us to believe and follow His Word *ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 17:30-31. At this point, when we have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word we have a decision to make. We can believe and follow God's Word and have a closer walk with JESUS, or we can reject Gods' Word and continue in known unrepentant sin. If we reject Gods' in order to continue in known unrepentant sin, or follow the traditions and teachings of men over the Word of God (see MATTHEW 15:3-9) the bible teaches we are no longer following Gods' Word, and there remains no more sacrifice for sin, but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because those doing so reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of God's grace *HEBREWS 10:26-39.

Sin, which is defined in the bible as knowingly breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 7:7 and not believing and following God's Word *ROMANS 14:23 when we have been given a knowledge of God's truth *ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 17:30-31, without confession and repentance (1 JOHN 1:9; PROVERBS 28:9-13; 1 JOHN 2:1-2), will keep all those who practice it out of God's kingdom *REVELATION 22:11-15; REVELATION 21:7-8; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9.

Sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; REVELATION 12:17; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14. The scriptures teach that God's people are in EVERY CHURCH living up to all the knowledge that God has revealed to them *JOHN 10:16 but the hour is coming and now is that the true woshippers will hear God's voice (the Word) *JOHN 10:26-27 and come out from following man made teachings and traditions *MATTHEW 15:3-9 back to the pure Word of God.

I believe God is calling us all where ever we may be to worship him in Spirit and in truth, God is a Spirit and those who worship him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 4:23-24. God is calling his people back to his Word and away from the apostate teachings of the fallen churches and the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *REVELATION 18:1-5; REVELATION 17:1-5

Hope this is helpful

God bless

Well LGW, that post of yours is full of holes. You are clearly applying an interpretation to the text.

Then your making claims that are not really supported by the scripture.

Here is an example of a claim that is impossible to support in the scripture.

"Sin, which is defined in the bible as knowingly breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments"

One definition of sin is; sin is also transgression of the law.

Notice this definition of sin does not say; sin is also transgression of the ten commandments.

You have altered the scripture to support the claim.

"Sin, which is defined in the bible as knowingly breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments"

Further, sin committed knowingly or in ignorance of the law, does not change the penalty of the law.

So then, why do you make that distinction between a knowing transgression and an ignorant transgression of the law?

klutedavid · Jun 11, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
No one is under the law unless they stand before God guilty of breaking the law *ROMANS 3:19-20. The same as no one loves JESUS if they break his commandments *JOHN 14:15. The same as no one loves their neighbore if they lie, steal, murder and commit adultery with their spouse etc etc. The same as no one loves God if they make idols in their lives and bow down to worship them, use God's name in vain and break his Sabbath commandment. According to the scriptures in the new covenant Gentiles are grafted in to God's ISRAEL. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL then you have no part in God's new covenant promise of a new heart and to be born again to love.

Another meaningless post by you.

Here is what you wrote.

"No one is under the law unless they stand before God guilty of breaking the law *ROMANS 3:19-20."

The text (Romans 3:19-20) does not say what wrote.

Here is what the text (Romans 3:19-20) says.

Romans 3:19-20
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Can you see the difference between your quotation and what the text actually says?

LoveGodsWord · Jun 11, 2020

klutedavid said:
Well LGW, that post of yours is full of holes. You are clearly applying an interpretation to the text. Then your making claims that are not really supported by the scripture. Here is an example of a claim that is impossible to support in the scripture.
"Sin, which is defined in the bible as knowingly breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments"
One definition of sin is; sin is also transgression of the law. Notice this definition of sin does not say; sin is also transgression of the ten commandments. You have altered the scripture to support the claim.
"Sin, which is defined in the bible as knowingly breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments"

Nonsense. Sin is defined as breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 7:7 and not believing Gods' Word *ROMANS 14:23. This was posted in the very post you are quoting from. The scriptures quoted you David are quoting examples of the 10 commandments defining breaking them as being sin in JAMES 2:8-12; ROMANS 7:7. What do you think God's standard of GOOD and EVIL is; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS? *see PSALMS 119:172?

Let's look at the detail to your claims that breaking the 10 commandments are not sin...

WHAT IS SIN?

NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES

JAMES 2:8-12
[8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:[9], But if ye have respect to persons, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS.
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

Yep, James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW and commit SIN. James quotes two of the 10 Commandments saying that if we break them we commit sin v9 that are summed up in the 2nd great commandments of LOVE to God and LOVE to our neighbour in v11. Maybe you missed that one?

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not known lust, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

Well here we have Paul in agreement with James and John also telling us that he did not know what sin was without God's 10 Commandments. SIN is breaking God's commandments and Paul uses the 10th commandment as an example of breaking any of God's LAW (10 commandments) = SIN (Exodus 20:17)

links to...

1 JOHN 3:4 [4] Whosoever commits SIN transgresses also the law: for SIN is the transgression of the law.

John is saying the same thing as James and Paul and states that if we TRANSGRESS God's LAW then we commit SIN because SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF GOD'S LAW. So it is very clear that SIN is breaking ANY of God's LAW (10 commandments). We will look at the chapter context John uses v15 of MURDER as an example of sin which is God's 6th Command of the 10.

Sin is indeed defined in God's WORD as breaking any of the 10 Commandments in both the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures just the same as not believing and following God's Word *ROMANS 14:23.

...............

Yep God’s WORD is very clear that sin is defined as breaking ANY of the 10 Commandments just as James, Paul and John all teach in the NEW TESTAMENT (James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20) and not believing God’s Word *Romans 14:23. All the above scriptures show by example, quoting individual commandments from the 10 Commandments that SIN is indeed also defined as breaking any of God's 10 Commandments. I am sorry dear friend, all you have provided is your words that are not God’s Word.

Sorry David it seems Gods’ Word disagrees with you.

klutedavid said:
Further, sin committed knowingly or in ignorance of the law, does not change the penalty of the law. So then, why do you make that distinction between a knowing transgression and an ignorant transgression of the law?

Depends if you are in Christ and covered by His blood or out of Christ. What do you think is the difference between justification and sanctification is and being a babe in Christ feeding on the milk of the Word of God and not being a babe anymore and feeding on the meat of the Word of God? While thinking of this question what do you think is the meaning of JAMES 4:18; ACTS 17:30-31 and HEBREWS 10:26-27?

Hope this is helpful

LoveGodsWord · Jun 11, 2020

klutedavid said:
Another meaningless post by you.

Here is what you wrote.

"No one is under the law unless they stand before God guilty of breaking the law *ROMANS 3:19-20."

The text (Romans 3:19-20) does not say what wrote.

Here is what the text (Romans 3:19-20) says.

Romans 3:19-20
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Can you see the difference between your quotation and what the text actually says?

Sorry David this is more nonsense. As posted earlier no one is under the law unless they stand before God guilty of breaking the law according to ROMANS 3:19-20.

ROMANS 3:19-31 [19], NOW WE KNOW THAT WHAT THINGS SOEVER THE LAW SAID, IT SAID TO THEM WHO ARE "UNDER THE LAW": THAT EVERY MOUTH MAY BE STOPPED, AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

The context to these scriptures is ROMANS 2 to ROMANS 3:10-17 which Paul is shwing both JEWS and GENTILES are all under sin and no one is righteouss no not one..

The purpose of God’s ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) in both the OLD and NEW COVENANTS are to give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. They do not make anyone perfect. God’s eternal law shows us that we are all sinners in need of a Savior and lead us to Christ that we might be FORGIVEN through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25. If we have REPENTED from our sins and CONFESSED them to JESUS he is faithful and just to forgive us from our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness * ACTS 2:38; 3:19; 8:22; MATTHEW 3:2; 4:17; Mark 1:15; 6:2; Luke 13:3-5; PROVERBS 28:9-13; ROMANS 6:1-23; 1 JOHN 1:9; PROVERBS 28:9-13 and we are no longer “UNDER THE LAW” condemned before God of sin *ROMANS 8:1-4. However, if we are continuing in known unrepentant sin then we are still “UNDER THE LAW” condemned before God of sin *ROMANS 3:19-20 and need to seek him in repentance, confession for your sins and faith in his WORD *JOHN 3:15-21

As posted earlier, no one loves JESUS if they break his commandments *JOHN 14:15. The same as no one loves their neighbore if they lie, steal, murder and commit adultery with their spouse etc etc. The same as no one loves God if they make idols in their lives and bow down to worship them, use God's name in vain and break his Sabbath commandment. According to the scriptures in the new covenant Gentiles are grafted in to God's ISRAEL. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL then you have no part in God's new covenant promise of a new heart and to be born again to love.

Sorry dear friend it seems like God's Word disagrees with you.

Hope this helps.

klutedavid · Jun 11, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Nonsense. Sin is defined as breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 7:7 and not believing Gods' Word *ROMANS 14:23.

None of those verses says that sin is breaking only the ten commandments. You seem to think that the death penalty only applies to transgression of the ten commandments? There are a multitude of sins in the law that involve the death penalty.

This was posted in the very post you are quoting from. The scriptures quoted you David are quoting examples of the 10 commandments defining breaking them as being sin in JAMES 2:8-12; ROMANS 7:7. What do you think God's standard of GOOD and EVIL is; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS? *see PSALMS 119:172?

Look at the verse before your quotation, i.e., Romans 6:6.

Romans 7:6
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound.

Paul is using the phrase 'the law' here and it includes the ten commandments, obviously.

Transgression of the law applies to the entire law. Unless you think that sin is only defined by the ten commandments?

You are wrong if you think that.

Let's look at the detail to your claims that breaking the 10 commandments are not sin...

WHAT IS SIN?

NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES

JAMES 2:8-12
[8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:[9], But if ye have respect to persons, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS.
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

Yep, James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW and commit SIN. James quotes two of the 10 Commandments saying that if we break them we commit sin v9 that are summed up in the 2nd great commandments of LOVE to God and LOVE to our neighbour in v11. Maybe you missed that one?

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not known lust, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

Well here we have Paul in agreement with James and John also telling us that he did not know what sin was without God's 10 Commandments. SIN is breaking God's commandments and Paul uses the 10th commandment as an example of breaking any of God's LAW (10 commandments) = SIN (Exodus 20:17)

links to...

1 JOHN 3:4 [4] Whosoever commits SIN transgresses also the law: for SIN is the transgression of the law.

John is saying the same thing as James and Paul and states that if we TRANSGRESS God's LAW then we commit SIN because SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF GOD'S LAW. So it is very clear that SIN is breaking ANY of God's LAW (10 commandments). We will look at the chapter context John uses v15 of MURDER as an example of sin which is God's 6th Command of the 10.

Sin is indeed defined in God's WORD as breaking any of the 10 Commandments in both the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures just the same as not believing and following God's Word *ROMANS 14:23.

...............

Yep God’s WORD is very clear that sin is defined as breaking ANY of the 10 Commandments just as James, Paul and John all teach in the NEW TESTAMENT (James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20) and not believing God’s Word *Romans 14:23. All the above scriptures show by example, quoting individual commandments from the 10 Commandments that SIN is indeed also defined as breaking any of God's 10 Commandments. I am sorry dear friend, all you have provided is your words that are not God’s Word.

Sorry David it seems Gods’ Word disagrees with you.

Depends if you are in Christ and covered by His blood or out of Christ. What do you think is the difference between justification and sanctification is and being a babe in Christ feeding on the milk of the Word of God and not being a babe anymore and feeding on the meat of the Word of God? While thinking of this question what do you think is the meaning of JAMES 4:18; ACTS 17:30-31 and HEBREWS 10:26-27?

Hope this is helpful

Sin is also transgression of the law. The phrase 'the law' does not mean just the ten commandments.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is one very serious and unforgivable sin. But blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in the ten commandments.

Drunkards will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Drunkenness is not even mentioned in the law. Yet drunkenness is a sin.

Your SDA interpretation is inaccurate and full of holes.

klutedavid · Jun 11, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Sorry David this is more nonsense.

You cannot be corrected can you, LGW.

Here is what you said and I quote.

"No one is under the law unless they stand before God guilty of breaking the law *ROMANS 3:19-20."

Here is what the text said.

Romans 3:19-20
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

You cannot accept that the text is saying something different, to what your saying.

You can't break the law until your given the law. You must first be given the law then you can break it. When your given the law then you are under the law.

I just don't believe that you left out an entire sentence, as if it was not important.

Here is the sentence you omitted from your quotation (Romans 3:19-20)

Romans 3:20
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Here is what you said again.

"No one is under the law unless they stand before God guilty of breaking the law *ROMANS 3:19-20."

I have not done anything wrong. I am drawing attention to your incorrect quotations and you call this nonsense?

LoveGodsWord · Jun 11, 2020

klutedavid said:
None of those verses says that sin is breaking only the ten commandments. You seem to think that the death penalty only applies to transgression of the ten commandments? There are a multitude of sins in the law that involve the death penalty.Look at the verse before your quotation, i.e., Romans 6:6.

I see. So in your view David it is not sin to break any of Gods 10 commandments? Yet in God's view it is sin is breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments just as much as not believing God's Word *ROMANS 14:23

JAMES 2:8-12 [8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:[9], But if ye have respect to persons, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS.[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not known lust, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

ROMANS 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

1 JOHN 3:4 [4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

I am sorry dear friend you have to ignore a lot of scriptures to believe what your posting here. You will have to forgive me David. I know who I believe and it is not you.

klutedavid said:
Romans 7:6 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound. Paul is using the phrase 'the law' here and it includes the ten commandments, obviously. Transgression of the law applies to the entire law. Unless you think that sin is only defined by the ten commandments? You are wrong if you think that.Sin is also transgression of the law. The phrase 'the law' does not mean just the ten commandments.

We have been released from the penalty of God's Law being dead to that which has bound us which is sin. Your leaving out context again dear friend. Please see ROMANS 6:1-23.

ROMANS 7:5-7 [5], FOR WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH, THE MOTIONS OF SINS, WHICH WERE BY THE LAW, DID WORK IN OUR MEMBERS TO BRING FORTH FRUIT TO DEATH. [6], But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead WHEREIN WE WERE HELD; THAT WE SHOULD SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER. [7], WHAT SHALL WE SAY THEN? IS THE LAW SIN? GOD FORBID. NO, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

klutedavid said:
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is one very serious and unforgivable sin. But blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in the ten commandments. Drunkards will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Drunkenness is not even mentioned in the law. Yet drunkenness is a sin.

Strawman much David? You forget I have only posted scripture stating what you have already said here and that is SIN is defined in God's Word as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 3:20 and not believing and following Gods' Word *ROMANS 14:23. How is what you have written above not covered already in what has been posted to you from the very first post? - No different.

Do you believe it is a sin to lie, steal or murder or commit adultery David?

klutedavid said:
Your SDA interpretation is inaccurate and full of holes.

Yet here you still are David yet to find one.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 11, 2020

klutedavid said:
You cannot be corrected can you, LGW.

Here is what you said and I quote.

"No one is under the law unless they stand before God guilty of breaking the law *ROMANS 3:19-20."

Here is what the text said.

Romans 3:19-20
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

You cannot accept that the text is saying something different, to what your saying.

You can't break the law until your given the law. You must first be given the law then you can break it. When your given the law then you are under the law.

I just don't believe that you left out an entire sentence, as if it was not important.

Here is the sentence you omitted from your quotation (Romans 3:19-20)

Romans 3:20
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Here is what you said again.

"No one is under the law unless they stand before God guilty of breaking the law *ROMANS 3:19-20."

I have not done anything wrong. I am drawing attention to your incorrect quotations and you call this nonsense?

I think it is you who cannot be corrected dear friend. If you do not believe my earlier post to you then prove or show why. I do not mind you disagreeing with anything I have shared with you David but all you have done here is ignore the content of my post (you only part quote me here in this post) while repeating the same post content that has already been responded with the scripture context showing why I disagree with you in the very post you will not quote here.

As posted earlier no one is under the law unless they stand before God guilty of breaking the law according to ROMANS 3:19-20.

ROMANS 3:19-31 [19], NOW WE KNOW THAT WHAT THINGS SOEVER THE LAW SAID, IT SAID TO THEM WHO ARE "UNDER THE LAW": THAT EVERY MOUTH MAY BE STOPPED, AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

The context to these scriptures is ROMANS 2 to ROMANS 3:10-17 which Paul is showing both JEWS and GENTILES are all under sin and no one is righteouss no not one. This is the purpose of God's Law as it is the standard of righteousness *PSALMS 119:172 and how love to God and man is expressed in a new heart to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-12.

I have only posted the context you left out proving the scripture in ROMANS 3:19 do not say what your claiming and this was only done as a help to you. You are free to believe as you wish dear friend they are God's Words not mine. So your argument is with God not me. Seems we will have to agree to disagree here. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS OF THE APOSLTES 5:29.

I wish you well dear friend.

klutedavid · Jun 11, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
I see. So in your view David it is not sin to break any of Gods 10 commandments.

Here is one definition of sin.

1 John 3:4
Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

The text quoted does not say that sin is breaking the ten commandments. Your misunderstanding is what you keep repeating over and over again.

My personal opinion is that everyone sins, there is never a perfect repentance practiced by anyone. The ten commandments are part of the law, but so too are the prophets.

Yet in God's view it is sin is breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments and not believing his Word *ROMANS 14:23...

Sin is breaking any of the law and that is what the scripture tells us.

You seem to think that one sin is different to another sin?

In my book all disobedience is sin and no matter how small, you may imagine your sin is.

JAMES 2:8-12 [8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:[9], But if ye have respect to persons, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS.[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

Read it again.

But if ye have respect to persons, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS.

The sin is regarding some people higher than others.

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not known lust, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

Paul says that commandment (covet) is in the law. Your saying that the whole law does not apply and it's only about the ten commandments. The coveting example does do mean that Paul is only talking about the ten commandments.

ROMANS 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

By obedience to the law no flesh will be justified.

1 JOHN 3:4 [4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

See I told you it says, THE LAW, and not the ten commandments.

I am sorry dear friend you have to ignore a lot of scriptures to believe what your posting here. You will have to forgive me David. I know who I believe and it is not you.

Well it's obvious to everyone that your confusing, THE LAW, and the ten commandments.

The ten commandments are in the law. And transgressing any law is sin.

We have been released from the penalty of God's Law being dead to that which has bound us which is sin. Your leaving out context again dear friend. Please see ROMANS 6:1-23.

I read it and it says we are under grace and not under the law.

ROMANS 7:5-7 [5], FOR WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH, THE MOTIONS OF SINS, WHICH WERE BY THE LAW, DID WORK IN OUR MEMBERS TO BRING FORTH FRUIT TO DEATH. [6], But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead WHEREIN WE WERE HELD; THAT WE SHOULD SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER. [7], WHAT SHALL WE SAY THEN? IS THE LAW SIN? GOD FORBID. NO, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

Exactly, "AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER". We no longer serve the ten commandments, the written law, we serve in newness of the Spirit.

Strawman much David? You forget I have only posted scripture stating what you have already said here and that is SIN is defined in God's Word as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments

Yes and that was your error. The text says the law.

Do you believe it is a sin to lie, steal or muder David?

Sin is sin and you cannot stop sinning. Sorcery is sin, kidnapping is sin, drunkenness is sin. Worldliness is sin, loving money is sin.

Yet here you still are David yet to find one.

Your interpretation is incorrect and you cannot see that 'the law' does not just mean the ten commandments.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 12, 2020

klutedavid said:
Here is one definition of sin.
1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
The text quoted does not say that sin is breaking the ten commandments. Your misunderstanding is what you keep repeating over and over again.

So your saying that 1 JOHN 3:4 is does not mean God's 10 commandments dispite JAMES applying the same definition to breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments in JAMES 2:10-11 giving the example of "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not commit adultery" (Hmm 10 commandments?). Paul saying the same thing in ROMANS 7:7 giving the example of "thou shalt not covet" (Hmm 10 commandments?) with PAUL also stating earlier that breaking the law gives us a knowledge of what sin is in ROMANS 3:20 but in your view when JOHN says in 1 JOHN 3:4 " Whoever commits sin transgresses ἀνομία also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. You claim John is not talking about the 10 commandments when John is making the same claims as PAUL and JAMES? So if JAMES and PAUL are defining sin as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments and quoting example of the 10 commandments so there is no misunderstanding in your view JOHN does not mean 10 commandments?

What do you think that your one definition is talking about and what do you think lawlessness ἀνομία means in the Greek? It means without law. It means to break it.

Here let's look at the Greek word meaning here..

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G458
lawlessness ἀνομία; anomia From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

A Pocket Lexicon to the Greek New Testament
ἀνομία, lawlessness; especially disobedience to the divine law, sin.

A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible
458. ἀνομία anŏmia, an-om-ee´-ah; from 459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (gen.) wickedness:—iniquity, × transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

So David as you can see here it does not matter what bible translation your using. Sin is defined as breaking anyone of God's Laws. PAUL, JAMES and JOHN apply this to God's 10 commandments which is God's standard of what is right and what is wrong (SIN) *PSALMS 119:172.

klutedavid said:
My personal opinion is that everyone sins, there is never a perfect repentance practiced by anyone. The ten commandments are part of the law, but so too are the prophets.Sin is breaking any of the law and that is what the scripture tells us

David here your contradicting yourself. Even if you say God's 10 commandments are a part of the law then your agreeing with what I have already posted and shared with you from the scriptures when showing the bible's definition of sin which is breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments and not believing Gods' Word. So what is your argument. You have none.

klutedavid said:
You seem to think that one sin is different to another sin?

Nonsense. Where have I ever stated such things and if I have never said such things why do you pretend that I have. Strawman much David?

klutedavid said:
In my book all disobedience is sin and no matter how small, you may imagine your sin is.

True and where have I ever said not all disobedience to Gods' Word is not sin when I have posted that sin is breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments and not believing and following God's Word? Strawman much David?

klutedavid said:
Read it again. But if ye have respect to persons, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS. The sin is regarding some people higher than others.Paul says that commandment (covet) is in the law. Your saying that the whole law does not apply and it's only about the ten commandments. The coveting example does do mean that Paul is only talking about the ten commandments.By obedience to the law no flesh will be justified. See I told you it says, THE LAW, and not the ten commandments. Well it's obvious to everyone that your confusing, THE LAW, and the ten commandments.

I see so in your view JAMES 2:10-11 is not talking about ADULTERY and MURDER and quoting God's 10 commandments as an example of sin in your view? I am sorry dear friend we must be reading different bibles. God's Word not mine clearly says..

JAMES 2:8-12 [8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:[9], But if ye have respect to persons, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS.[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

What I believe JAMES is saying here is not having respect to persons is the same concept as not having respect to keeping one of God's 10 commandments over another. The same concept applies. You break one commandment you stand guilty before God of breaking all of them. v8 is talking about the Royal law of love and not having respects to persons and by doing so you commit sin just like if you if you commit murder but not adultery you still sin.

klutedavid said:
The ten commandments are in the law. And transgressing any law is sin.

Hmm Great so you agree with me now. So your argument is about??

klutedavid said:
Well it's obvious to everyone that your confusing, THE LAW, and the ten commandments.

Nonsense. PAUL, JAMES and JOHN all disagree with you as shown above. Are you seriously trying to argue that SIN is not breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments and not believing and following God's Word David?

klutedavid said:
The ten commandments are in the law. And transgressing any law is sin. I read it and it says we are under grace and not under the law.

Your trailing off again David. So do you believe that breaking God's 10 commandments are SIN David? Yes we are under Grace if we have received God's forgiveness. We are only "under the law" if we stand before God guilty of breaking it *ROMANS 3:19.

klutedavid said:
Exactly, "AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER". We no longer serve the ten commandments, the written law, we serve in newness of the Spirit.Yes and that was your error. The text says the law. Sin is sin and you cannot stop sinning. Sorcery is sin, kidnapping is sin, drunkenness is sin. Worldliness is sin, loving money is sin.Your interpretation is incorrect and you cannot see that 'the law' does not just mean the ten commandments.

David, no one has the Spirit of the Law without the letter of the law. It is the letter that leads to the Spirit which we receive by faith. It is the letter that leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven by faith and free to walk in God's Spirit *ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 6:1-23; GALATIANS 3:22-25. Faith in the letter (the Word of God) does not abolish God's law it establishes God's law in the heart through faith that works by love *ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 13:8-10 and is why JESUS says "ON THESE TO GREAT COMMANDMANT OF LOVE TO GOD AND MAN HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS" MATTHEW 22:36-40.

Sorry David it seems God's Word disagrees with you.

rstrats · Jun 12, 2020

LoveGodsWord,
re: "...I posted that earlier that God's Sabbath is not on Sunday or the first day of the week."

Any particular reason for saying Sunday? The first day of the week is the first day of the week regardless of what you call it. And in much of Europe as well as other parts of the world, the seventh day of the week is called Sunday.

Also, you write "Sunday or the first day of the week" (my emphasis). Do you really mean that Sunday is a different day of the week? Or do you mean to say that Sunday is the first day of the week?

Andrewn · Jun 12, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
No dear friend. I posted that earlier that God's Sabbath is not on Sunday or the first day of the week. It never has been. It has always been on the "seventh day" of the week that God blessed, set apart from all the other days of the week and made a Holy day of rest from work for all mankind at the end of creation *GENESIS 2:1-3; MARK 2:27.

I realize that, in the Bible, the word Sabbath means Seventh day, which is Saturday. There is no need to get into arguments here about whether one should keep Saturday, or Sunday.

SDA's traditionally consider obeying the "Sunday law" equivalent to receiving the "mark of the beast." But this is no longer an issue bec most Christians (of all faiths) do not obey the "Sunday law" any longer. Your traditional "enemy" has mostly disappeared, except for some old people

. These are a tiny minority among world population. No one is taking the "mark of the beast" any longer.

I agree with rest of your message and would rather rest on both Saturday and Sunday, myself (which doesn't mean idleness). In one sense we keep the Sabbath 7 days a week.

The 10 commandments are essential as interpreted (and extended) in the rest of Torah and New Testament books. This is keeping in mind that salvation is by grace through faith in the blood of Lord Jesus only.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 12, 2020

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ No dear friend. I posted earlier that God's Sabbath is not on Sunday or the first day of the week. It never has been. It has always been on the "seventh day" of the week that God blessed, set apart from all the other days of the week and made a Holy day of rest from work for all mankind at the end of creation *GENESIS 2:1-3; MARK 2:27.

Your response...

Andrewn said:
I realize that, in the Bible, the word Sabbath means Seventh day, which is Saturday. There is no need to get into arguments here about whether one should keep Saturday, or Sunday.

No one is getting into arguments here dear friend about whether one should keep Saturday, or Sunday. There is no arguement if you believe the scriptures on which day God's Word defines the Sabbath day as being and it is very clear that sin is the transgression of Gods' law and not believing God's Word to those who break it and reject the scriptures.

Andrewn said:
SDA's traditionally consider obeying the "Sunday law" equivalent to receiving the "mark of the beast." But this is no longer an issue bec most Christians (of all faiths) do not obey the "Sunday law" any longer. Your traditional "enemy" has mostly disappeared, except for some old peopl. These are a tiny minority among world population. No one is taking the "mark of the beast" any longer

As posted earlier no one receives the mark of the beast according to the scriptures unless it is forced under civil law *REVELATION 13:12-17. The blue laws (linked) are still on the law books though today in the US. They are no longer enforced today however. That does not mean that this cannot change tomorrow.

Andrewn said:
I agree with rest of your message and would rather rest on both Saturday and Sunday, myself (which doesn't mean idleness). In one sense we keep the Sabbath 7 days a week.

Good for you Andrewn, may you be blessed as you seek God through his Word.

Andrewn said:
The 10 commandments are essential as interpreted (and extended) in the rest of Torah and New Testament books. This is keeping in mind that salvation is by grace through faith in the blood of Lord Jesus only.

Amen, thanks for sharing brother Andrewn :wave:

LoveGodsWord · Jun 12, 2020

rstrats said:
LoveGodsWord,
re: "...I posted that earlier that God's Sabbath is not on Sunday or the first day of the week."

Any particular reason for saying Sunday? The first day of the week is the first day of the week regardless of what you call it. And in much of Europe as well as other parts of the world, the seventh day of the week is called Sunday.

Also, you write "Sunday or the first day of the week" (my emphasis). Do you really mean that Sunday is a different day of the week? Or do you mean to say that Sunday is the first day of the week?

Sunday was in reference to the first day of the week dear friend nothing more.

Andrewn · Jun 12, 2020

rstrats said:
Any particular reason for saying Sunday? The first day of the week is the first day of the week regardless of what you call it. And in much of Europe as well as other parts of the world, the seventh day of the week is called Sunday. Also, you write "Sunday or the first day of the week" (my emphasis).

In English and French, many days of the week take their names from ancients mythological gods or planets.

In Hebrew, days take their names from numbers. So, Sunday is called First day, Monday is called Second day, Tuesday is called Third day, Wednesday is called Fourth day, Thursday is called Fifth day, Friday is called Sixth day, and Saturday is called Seventh day (which is Sabbath in Hebrew).

rstrats · Jun 12, 2020

LoveGodsWord,
re: "Sunday was in reference to the first day..."

But why mention Sunday at all since the first day of the week is the first day of the week? Why do you have to give it a name? Plus, as I said, much of the world considers the seventh day of the week to be Sunday.

Andrewn · Jun 12, 2020

rstrats said:
But why mention Sunday at all since the first day of the week is the first day of the week? Why do you have to give it a name? Plus, as I said, much of the world considers the seventh day of the week to be Sunday.

There are 5 weekdays and 2 weekend days. Monday is the first day of the 5-day work week. But Sunday is first day of the 7-day week. It always has been and it will always be. Jesus was resurrected on the First day of the week, which is Sunday. See following Bible verses:

15 Bible verses about The First Day Of The Week

If this is not how you think about it, you need to adjust your thinking in order to understand the Bible and history.

sparow · Jun 14, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Are you sure that Dispensationalists hate the SDAs? More likely that they hate the "historicism" you mention. (as opposed to futurism) And why do you see Dispensationalism as a group, rather than an ideology? And honestly, no one can keep the laws of God. That's the point. And what "prophecy" says the world will hate them? Are you referring to the Bible, or EGW?

You raise interesting points. One man's hatred is another man's treasure. The ideal is that one hates what a person does and not the person and this is a teaching of Christ, but sometimes it is not possible to separate the two and there is exceptions to rules.

From my perspective, Dispensationalism is a misnomer; the word could mean many things, or have many applications; for Christian purposes as I understand, Dispensationalism divides the scriptures into time periods; this in it self is not necessarily a problem, but there is a scripture, I believe, that says God divides thing differently to men; The problem with Dispensationalism is the false teachings they stuff into each dispensation. Their notable and Identifying teaching is “Futurism”, whether they realise that Futurism is a Roman Catholic apology, I don't know. At the time of the council of Trent men were commissioned to show that the Papacy was not the Beast of Revelation; One Jesuit Priest (Ribera) produce a thesis called Futurism that placed the Beast far into the future, so that the Catholic Church could not possibly be the Beast of revelation; Another Priest produced Preterism that placed the beast at around 70AD, before the Papacy came into existence, so the Papacy could not be the beast. These arguments had no effect on the Protestants at the the Council of Trent; what won the day for the Catholics was when the Protestants were told that there was no authority for keeping Sunday accept the authority of the Papacy and if the Protestants went with the Bible and the Bible alone they would have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, and with this the Protestants folded and the Inquisitions restarted.

It is interesting that the Papacy did not want to be the beast seeing they have previously tried so hard to be the beast. Rome of course is the beast; In about 490 AD when the Papacy was born, that is , when the Church of Rome and the Roman empire became a single entity; the Church inherited the empire on the basis of a forged will.

While the teachings of Dispensationalism had been around for a couple of hundred years it didn't take off until 1900, give or take 30 years; and it invaded the Pentecostal churches; Ivan Panin a Pentecostal Preacher, refuted Dispensationalism without referring to Futurism; he concluded Dispensationalism requires a new Gospel, a new Kingdom and a new Bible. Panin's booklet or tract refuting Dispensationalism, (The Gospel and The Kingdom -- WHAT ABOUT DISPENSATIONALISM) can still be bought for about $5 plus postage from Canada.

Historicism as a concept was not required or defined until the invention of futurism an preterism and is defined by historical events.

As a general statement people who presume to keep the commandments of God are hated by people who presume to not keep the commandments of God.

I can accept that false teaching could be called ideology, but ideologies are defective in that they are two dimensional and require an unknown third dimension (like an unknown god) to become a realistically defined entity.

Would a loving God ask Israel to do something that cannot be done?

Deuteronomy 30:7-19 (NKJV)
7 Also the LORD your God will put all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you.
8 And you will again obey the voice of the LORD and do all His commandments which I command you today.
9 The LORD your God will make you abound in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your land for good. For the LORD will again rejoice over you for good as He rejoiced over your fathers,
10 if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law, and if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'
13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'
14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,
16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them,
18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess.
19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

The Law is a means to an end, not an end in itself; the Law is so man can know God and walk with Him.

Matthew 12:1-9 (NKJV)
1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat.
2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!"
3 But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
4 how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple.
7 But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
9 Now when He had departed from there, He went into their synagogue.

Luke 6:22 (NKJV)
22 Blessed are you when men hate you, And when they exclude you, And revile you, and cast out your name as evil, For the Son of Man's sake.

John 7:7 (NKJV)
7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.

John 15:18-19 (NKJV)
18 "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.
19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

When the Dispensationalists hate the SDA it is actually God they hate.

Why do people hate the Seventh Day Adventists?

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