Can anyone undeniably prove Zechariah 14:2-3,12, have already been fulfilled?

sovereigngrace

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So do you also claim to be the mountains of Israel where scripture says Gog will Invade?

The mountain of the Lord is the kingdom of God, which includes the people of God. We are there now (Isaiah 2 & Malachi 4).
 
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sovereigngrace

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Where does this part fit, then? shall even go up from year to year. How can that even come to pass unless there are years remaining in order for them to go up from year to year, and that if they refuse, no rain? This can't even come to pass until after verses 2-3, 12, have come to pass first. Do you have an answer for that part? Do you have a period of time where verses 16-19 can fit?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Verses 17-19 are nonsensical if there is no time remaining for this part---shall even go up from year to year---once verse 16 begins coming to pass. Clearly---shall even go up from year to year----can't come to pass in a single day nor even a single year. Multiple years are required in order for these things to come to pass. Currently I'm convinced that verses 16-19 only make sense per Premil. But if it can make sense per Amil as well, what do you propose that makes it fit Amil better than it fits Premil, then?

In verse 18 it indicates there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In verse 12 it also indicates there shall be a plague. Is the plague in verse 12 the same plague meant in versse 18? I would have to say no. The reason why, the reasons for the plagues are not the same. In verse 12 the reason for the plague is because they have been fighting against Jerusalem in verse 2. In verse 18 the reason for the plague is because they are refusing to go up from year to year after they are left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem in verse 2.

The burden of proof is with you to prove that this correlates with Revelation 20. So far, you, and no premillennialist, has, or can show that.
 
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DavidPT

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I was wondering where this fits in, at all. Apologies if this is off topic.
Isaiah 11:
11
It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
12 He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.
13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart,
And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;
Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west;
Together they shall plunder the people of the East;
They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab;
And the people of Ammon shall obey them.
15 The Lord will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt;
With His mighty wind He will shake His fist over the River,
And strike it in the seven streams,
And make men crossover dry-shod.
16 There will be a highway for the remnant of His people
Who will be left from Assyria, As it was for Israel
In the day that he came up from the land of Egypt.


As to a chapter such as Isaiah 11. Before the NT, and before the first coming, it was not clear via the prophets that 2 advents would be necessary to fulfill these events recorded in some of their prophecies. The way I would reason a chapter such as Isaiah 11, some of the events pertain to this age between the first advent and the 2nd. And some of the events pertain to the 2nd advent and beyond. An example of the latter.

and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked(Isaiah 11:4). If we compare this to Revelation 19, it becomes apparent that this involves the 2nd advent.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

If we compare this to Isaiah Isaiah 65:17-25, this is meaning a time beyond the 2nd advent.

If we then look in Isaiah 12, and see this part---

Isaiah 12:4 And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.

This doesn't make sense if it is meaning after He has already returned. This fits better between His first advent and 2nd. It seems to me then, Isaiah is switching back and forth between the two advents, and that in that day is meaning a period of time that involves the first advent to the 2nd advent, the 2nd advent itself, and then beyond the 2nd advent. Right or wrong, this is the only way I can make sense out of this. And the fact there are 2 advents rather than just 1, it makes even more sense to me that Isaiah is switching back and forth between these time periods like this. As to Isaiah 13 since it seems to be connected to ch 11, I tend to see that mainly leading up to and involving His 2nd advent.
 
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DavidPT

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The burden of proof is with you to prove that this correlates with Revelation 20. So far, you are no premillennialist, has, or can show that.


But I would not need to prove it if Amils instead prove how Zechariah 14:16-19 fits Amil better than it fits Premil. And if Amils can prove that, would that not debunk Premil since Zechariah 14:16-19 is a main reason as for why many of us are concluding Premil rather than Amil?
 
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sovereigngrace

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shilohsfoal

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That was a historic battle that is long gone. The mote of conflict, the weaponry and the spoils of war are ancient. They are long gone. John spiritualizes it in Revelation 20 to describe the last great battle against elect before Jesus comes.

At no time has Ethiopia, Libia, Persia and Gog all invaded israel and died there. You should stop lying and start learning from God.

Ezekiel 38:5 KJV: Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

And for anyone interested why Egypt does not accompany them when they Invade Israel (a land recovered from war) is because Egypt is destroyed during the zech 14 war and never fully recovers.
 
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DavidPT

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The burden of proof is with you to prove that this correlates with Revelation 20. So far, you, and no premillennialist, has, or can show that.

I have already clearly explained in this thread, that if Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning post the 2nd coming, that leaves us but 2 options. Either what is recorded in those verses, it will be like that throughout all eternity, or there has to be a period of time post the 2nd coming that would prevent that from happening. Assuming the latter, how can that period of time not be the thousand years and satan's little season?


What is in question here, what period of time does the following occur during----shall even go up from year to year?

Who is that are supposed to do that? answer: every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem in verse 2.

What happens if they refuse to go up? answer: verses 17-19.

According to Amils,when are verses 17-19 meaning? Before all nations gather against Jerusalem? Or after all nations gather against Jerusalem? Before the LORD shall go forth and fight against those nations? Or after the LORD shall go forth and fight against those nations? Before verse 12 is fulfilled? Or after verse 12 is fulfilled?

According to Premils, when are verses 17-19 meaning? Before all nations gather against Jerusalem? Or after all nations gather against Jerusalem? Answer: after. Before the LORD shall go forth and fight against those nations? Or after the LORD shall go forth and fight against those nations? Answer: after. Before verse 12 is fulfilled? Or after verse 12 is fulfilled? Answer: after.


Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

When do Amils think this is already true? Between the first and 2nd advent? Or after the 2nd advent? Before 70 AD? Or after 70 AD?
 
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shilohsfoal

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Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

And 1000 years after Zech 14:11 is fulfilled, and Gog invades the land of Israel, Jerusalem will still be safely inhabited.When Gog invades, the land will have recovered from the Zech 14 war( mentioned below) .

Ezekiel 38:8 NIV: After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Where does this part fit, then? ...

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.​

I understand the point you are making, and I'll try to answer soon. But first of all, I would like you to consider the implications of your doctrine. 'Tabernacles' required the population of God's little country, Israel, to live in tents for seven days to celebrate their journey from Egypt to Canaan. It would have been a wonderful sight to behold.

But your literal interpretation of Zechariah is asking us to believe that the entire population of the world will gather in a single geographical location (Jerusalem) one thousand times, for 7 days each year. Now here are the things I'd like you to consider:
  1. Where near Jerusalem is a park large enough to accommodate the worlds population in tents?
  2. The furthest tribes were Dan and Naphtali and they arrived with some difficulty. Can we conceive how countries on the other side of the globe all arrive at Ben Gurion Airport every 10th day of Tishri?
  3. Food and water for 7 days? Think about it.
  4. Enough tents? Enough portaloos? (Im being serious)
These are the practical implications. My next post will suggest a figurative explanation to the latter verses of Zechariah 14.
 
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grafted branch

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Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

I’m not sure what to do with Zechariah 14 or where to place it, but it seems to me that it causes some issues with a future millennium that is the kingdom of God.

In Galatians 5:20-21 one of the things done by people who don’t inherit the kingdom of God is seditions <1370>. NIV translates the word as dissention. Any act of defiance toward authority would qualify as sedition or dissention.

From Zechariah 14:16-19 it appears that there will be people who deliberately and intentionally defy or dissent to go up and worship the King and keep the feast of tabernacles.

How can they be present in a future millennium?
 
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sovereigngrace

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At no time has Ethiopia, Libia, Persia and Gog all invaded israel and died there. You should stop lying and start learning from God.

Ezekiel 38:5 KJV: Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

And for anyone interested why Egypt does not accompany them when they Invade Israel (a land recovered from war) is because Egypt is destroyed during the zech 14 war and never fully recovers.

Once again, you totally avoided all my points. Unfortunately, this is all-to common when engaging with Premils!
 
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shilohsfoal

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I understand the point you are making, and I'll try to answer soon. But first of all, I would like you to consider the implications of your doctrine. 'Tabernacles' required the population of God's little country, Israel, to live in tents for seven days to celebrate their journey from Egypt to Canaan. It would have been a wonderful sight to behold.

But your literal interpretation of Zechariah is asking us to believe that the entire population of the world will gather in a single geographical location (Jerusalem) one thousand times, for 7 days each year. Now here are the things I'd like you to consider:
  1. Where near Jerusalem is a park large enough to accommodate the worlds population in tents?
  2. The furthest tribes were Dan and Naphtali and they arrived with some difficulty. Can we conceive how countries on the other side of the globe all arrive at Ben Gurion Airport every 10th day of Tishri?
  3. Food and water for 7 days? Think about it.
  4. Enough tents? Enough portaloos? (Im being serious)
These are the practical implications. My next post will suggest a figurative explanation to the latter verses of Zechariah 14.

Your assumption of the entire population of the world dwelling in tents near jerusalem is incorrect.
The population that is to go up to Jerusalem is those who are left of the nation's which came against Jerusalem. That number could actually be few especially if those nations which come against Jerusalem are Islamic nations. Only those in Christ would would be left of those nations.The beast has ten horns representing ten kings. So it's not the world which comes against Jerusalem,. It is ten nations. After the beast has taken Jerusalem and then is slain his kingdom is given to the saints. If im not mistaken there are about ten nations in the promised land besides Israel.

Daniel 7:18 KJV: But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
 
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DavidPT

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I understand the point you are making, and I'll try to answer soon. But first of all, I would like you to consider the implications of your doctrine. 'Tabernacles' required the population of God's little country, Israel, to live in tents for seven days to celebrate their journey from Egypt to Canaan. It would have been a wonderful sight to behold.

But your literal interpretation of Zechariah is asking us to believe that the entire population of the world will gather in a single geographical location (Jerusalem) one thousand times, for 7 days each year. Now here are the things I'd like you to consider:
  1. Where near Jerusalem is a park large enough to accommodate the worlds population in tents?
  2. The furthest tribes were Dan and Naphtali and they arrived with some difficulty. Can we conceive how countries on the other side of the globe all arrive at Ben Gurion Airport every 10th day of Tishri?
  3. Food and water for 7 days? Think about it.
  4. Enough tents? Enough portaloos? (Im being serious)
These are the practical implications. My next post will suggest a figurative explanation to the latter verses of Zechariah 14.


Maybe other Premils are taking the feast of tabernacles in the literal sense, I'm not. If verses 16-19 were to mean in this age before the 2nd coming, clearly that would indicate the keeping of the feast of tabernacles is not meaning in the literal sense, the same way it meant when they kept that feast in ancient times. If verses 16-19 were to mean post the 2nd coming, why would that automatically mean this feast would have to be meaning in the literal sense in that case, therefore verses 16-19 can't be meaning post the 2nd coming, then?
 
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DavidPT

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Your assumption of the entire population of the world dwelling in tents near jerusalem is incorrect.
The population that is to go up to Jerusalem is those who are left of the nation's which came against Jerusalem. That number could actually be few especially if those nations which come against Jerusalem are Islamic nations. Only those in Christ would would be left of those nations.The beast has ten horns representing ten kings. So it's not the world which comes against Jerusalem,. It is ten nations. After the beast has taken Jerusalem and then is slain his kingdom is given to the saints. If im not mistaken there are about ten nations in the promised land besides Israel.

Daniel 7:18 KJV: But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.



And another possibility, it is mainly representatives from those nations required to come up, rather than every single person remaining in those nations.
 
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DavidPT

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Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


What must be asked and demands answers, are as follows. How long are verses 16-19 meaning? From when to when? Keeping in mind that it requires multiple years if they are to go up from year to year.

Premil can answer these questions. Can Amil?

How long are verses 16-19 meaning? A thousand years. From when to when? From the beginning of the thousand years after the 2nd coming until the beginning of satan's little season after the thousand years.

Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.


For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee----is what some did during the thousand years.

shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted---is what happens to them at the end of satan's little season after the thousand years.


In Revelation 20 there is a thousand years followed by a little season. I don't see it making sense that verses 16-19 are meaning during the little season. Therefore they must be meaning during the thousand years.
 
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Christian Gedge

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... therefore verses 16-19 can't be meaning post the 2nd coming, then?

That how I see it. Have you compared Zech 14:16-19 with Isaiah 2:1-4 and Micah 4:1-5? I have to confess the Zech verses are difficult to interpret. They have to be discerned figuratively because extreme literalness results in impossible scenarios.

A feature of some O.T. visions is how they begin with a literal prediction then progress into a 'near / far' fulfillment, and then progress further into a figurative picture. I think Zechariah is one of those.

I don't claim to have it all worked out, but here is how I see it:
  1. The prophecy has a partial precursory fulfillment in AD 70.
  2. It then has a full (far) fulfillment during the final rebellion. (This answers your point regarding verse 12)
  3. The prophecy then shifts into figurative imagery. I think this aspect of the prophecy is explained in Ephesians.
 
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grafted branch

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For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee----is what some did during the thousand years.

shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted---is what happens to them at the end of satan's little season after the thousand years.

Is the 1,000 years the kingdom of God? If so, according to Galatians 5:20-21, people who commit dissention can’t inherit it.
 
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DavidPT

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Is the 1,000 years the kingdom of God? If so, according to Galatians 5:20-21, people who commit dissention can’t inherit it.


Assuming Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning during the thousand years, and assuming the thousand years are post the 2nd coming, what comes after the thousand years? Is it not satan's little season followed by this at the end----and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them?


Does it look like any of these inherited the kingdom of God during the thousand years, if after the thousand years, these people committing dissension during the thousand years, they are then devoured by fire at the end of satan's little season? During the thousand years the saints would be living inside of the city. These that are to go up would not be living inside of the city. The ones that are saved would be living inside the city where Jesus is dwelling, and not outside of the city where unsaved mortals are dwelling.
 
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