I am Obsessed with Paul’s Gospel — Here’s Why!

Strong in Him · Jun 11, 2020

Guojing said:
Jesus spelt it out clearly in Matthew 5:17-19 about the role of the law in the gospel of the kingdom.

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The law has not passed away. It has been fulfilled by Jesus.
The law said that they had to offer animal sacrifices for their sin - Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29; offered once and for all for sin, Hebrews 7:27. And even the Jews no longer offer animal sacrifices.
The law said that Jews had to go to Jerusalem 3 times a year to keep the Passover, the feast of Tabernacles and (I think) the feast of weeks (Pentecost) - Jesus is our Passover Lamb who has been sacrificed for us, 1 Corinthians 5:7, and was a lamb without blemish or defect, 1 Peter 1:19. Jesus was Tabernacled among is John 1:14 and poured out his Spirit at Pentecost as prophesied by Joel.
The law also described other feasts; the feast of unlevened bread. The Jews had to rid the house of yeast, which, often, in Scripture represents sin; Christ lived a sinless life. The feast of first fruits points to the resurrection - Christ is the firstfruits of those who sleep, 1 Corinthians 15:52.
The Day of atonement, may, apparently, refer to the 2nd coming, when everyone will look upon him whom they pierced, but it has always spoken to me of Good Friday.
When the temple was built, Jews went there, "the place to which God had given his name", Deuteronomy 12:5-7, to offer their sacrifices - Paul said that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 5:19. The Jews don't have a temple any longer.
The law said that, as God's holy people, the Israelites were to show that they were clean by avoiding unclean food, wearing clothes made with only one fabric and keeping their religion pure by not marrying foreigners. Jesus had made us clean by his forgiveness, 1 John 1:9 and his word, John 15:3. He has made us righteous because he became sin for us on the cross, 2 Corinthians 5:21 and he has made us holy, by giving us his Holy Spirit who lives in us.

Guojing · Jun 11, 2020

Strong in Him said:
The law has not passed away. It has been fulfilled by Jesus.
The law said that they had to offer animal sacrifices for their sin - Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29; offered once and for all for sin, Hebrews 7:27. And even the Jews no longer offer animal sacrifices.
The law said that Jews had to go to Jerusalem 3 times a year to keep the Passover, the feast of Tabernacles and (I think) the feast of weeks (Pentecost) - Jesus is our Passover Lamb who has been sacrificed for us, 1 Corinthians 5:7, and was a lamb without blemish or defect, 1 Peter 1:19. Jesus was Tabernacled among is John 1:14 and poured out his Spirit at Pentecost as prophesied by Joel.
The law also described other feasts; the feast of unlevened bread. The Jews had to rid the house of yeast, which, often, in Scripture represents sin; Christ lived a sinless life. The feast of first fruits points to the resurrection - Christ is the firstfruits of those who sleep, 1 Corinthians 15:52.
The Day of atonement, may, apparently, refer to the 2nd coming, when everyone will look upon him whom they pierced, but it has always spoken to me of Good Friday.
When the temple was built, Jews went there, "the place to which God had given his name", Deuteronomy 12:5-7, to offer their sacrifices - Paul said that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 5:19. The Jews don't have a temple any longer.
The law said that, as God's holy people, the Israelites were to show that they were clean by avoiding unclean food, wearing clothes made with only one fabric and keeping their religion pure by not marrying foreigners. Jesus had made us clean by his forgiveness, 1 John 1:9 and his word, John 15:3. He has made us righteous because he became sin for us on the cross, 2 Corinthians 5:21 and he has made us holy, by giving us his Holy Spirit who lives in us.

You stated that "There is no indication that Jesus told his disciples, or anyone else, to believe in him, receive eternal life, be born again - and continue to keep the Jewish law."

I just provide you with the scripture that stated otherwise.

Strong in Him · Jun 12, 2020

Guojing said:
You stated that "There is no indication that Jesus told his disciples, or anyone else, to believe in him, receive eternal life, be born again - and continue to keep the Jewish law."

I just provide you with the scripture that stated otherwise.

No, you provided Scripture which says that the law will not disappear until all is fulfilled.
That is not the same as Jesus saying, "all who believe in me and have eternal life must keep the Jewish law," or "all my followers must continue to keep the law," or "no one comes to the Father except through me - and keeping the law".
And Jesus did not say one word about circumcision; only baptism.

I have provided many Scriptures which show that Jesus fulfilled the law, and you have not even attempted to comment on them.

Paul says that all those who rely on observing the law are under a curse, Galatians 3:10. He spoke of Hagar and Sarah, who, he said, represented the two covenants; Hagar represents the covenant from Mt Sinai which produces children in slavery, but that Sarah represents the free woman. We are children of the free woman, Galatians 4:21-31.
He said that those who taught circumcision should go away and emasculate themselves, and that if anyone let themselves be circumcised it meant that Christ died for nothing.
The writer of Hebrews says that the Old Covenant was a shadow of what was to come, and is obsolete.

If you want to keep the Jewish law, go ahead - but it's not Christian doctrine, nor Jesus' teaching, that we have to do so.

JLB777 · Jun 12, 2020

Guojing said:
Salvation for all of us now is based on 1 Cor 15:1-4. You believe Christ died for your sins and rose again on the 3rd day. Under the gospel of grace, we get salvation the moment we believed that.

What about repenting, which is obeying the Gospel?

Does the “gospel of grace” require obeying the Lord; obeying the truth?

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

JLB

Guojing · Jun 12, 2020

Strong in Him said:
No, you provided Scripture which says that the law will not disappear until all is fulfilled.
That is not the same as Jesus saying, "all who believe in me and have eternal life must keep the Jewish law," or "all my followers must continue to keep the law," or "no one comes to the Father except through me - and keeping the law".
And Jesus did not say one word about circumcision; only baptism.

I have provided many Scriptures which show that Jesus fulfilled the law, and you have not even attempted to comment on them.

Paul says that all those who rely on observing the law are under a curse, Galatians 3:10. He spoke of Hagar and Sarah, who, he said, represented the two covenants; Hagar represents the covenant from Mt Sinai which produces children in slavery, but that Sarah represents the free woman. We are children of the free woman, Galatians 4:21-31.
He said that those who taught circumcision should go away and emasculate themselves, and that if anyone let themselves be circumcised it meant that Christ died for nothing.
The writer of Hebrews says that the Old Covenant was a shadow of what was to come, and is obsolete.

If you want to keep the Jewish law, go ahead - but it's not Christian doctrine, nor Jesus' teaching, that we have to do so.

I am not keeping the Jewish law, I just provided Matthew 5:19, even bolded it in my reply but you ignored it, that indicated Jesus did preach law keeping to Israel.

Guojing · Jun 12, 2020

JLB777 said:
What about repenting, which is obeying the Gospel?

Does the “gospel of grace” require obeying the Lord; obeying the truth?

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

JLB

Romans 3:21 and 4:5 explained that you obey God, in this grace dispensation, by ceasing from all works and trusting In what Christ did for you at the cross.

When you do that, God sees you with the faith of Christ and that pleases him.

Strong in Him · Jun 12, 2020

Guojing said:
I am not keeping the Jewish law, I just provided Matthew 5:19, even bolded it in my reply but you ignored it, that indicated Jesus did preach law keeping to Israel.

I've already answered it.
The law has not disappeared, it has been fulfilled in Jesus.

But he never told his followers, and the disciples that THEY made, to follow it.
Jesus did not say, "come to me, receive eternal life and then go and keep the law for the rest of your life."
If he had, then the Holy Spirit should have made sure that none of Paul's epistles, James's letter or the book of Hebrews went into Holy Scripture, because they teach otherwise.

Guojing · Jun 12, 2020

Strong in Him said:
I've already answered it.
The law has not disappeared, it has been fulfilled in Jesus.

But he never told his followers, and the disciples that THEY made, to follow it.
Jesus did not say, "come to me, receive eternal life and then go and keep the law for the rest of your life."
If he had, then the Holy Spirit should have made sure that none of Paul's epistles, James's letter or the book of Hebrews went into Holy Scripture, because they teach otherwise.

Are you reading the same Bible as me?

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Strong in Him · Jun 12, 2020

Guojing said:
Are you reading the same Bible as me?

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

i) That verse does NOT say "believe in Jesus, receive eternal life and then keep the law".
ii) According to this, someone can fail to keep the commandments and just be LEAST in the Kingdom of heaven - doesn't say they won't get in. Elsewhere, Jesus said that if you humble yourself like a child you will be greatest in the Kingdom of heaven, Matthew 18:4. Sounds like there might be a problem if someone is a continual lawbreaker, but humble about it.
iii) Jesus said that the 2 greatest commandments were love God with all your heart, soul and mind and love your neighbour as yourself; on these commandments hang all the law and the prophets, Matthew 20:36-37
iv) Are you saying that your ONE Bible verse cancels out everything I said about Jesus fulfilling the law, and Paul teaching that anyone who keeps the law is under a curse?

Guojing · Jun 12, 2020

Strong in Him said:
i) That verse does NOT say "believe in Jesus, receive eternal life and then keep the law".
ii) According to this, someone can fail to keep the commandments and just be LEAST in the Kingdom of heaven - doesn't say they won't get in. Elsewhere, Jesus said that if you humble yourself like a child you will be greatest in the Kingdom of heaven, Matthew 18:4. Sounds like there might be a problem if someone is a continual lawbreaker, but humble about it.
iii) Jesus said that the 2 greatest commandments were love God with all your heart, soul and mind and love your neighbour as yourself; on these commandments hang all the law and the prophets, Matthew 20:36-37
iv) Are you saying that your ONE Bible verse cancels out everything I said about Jesus fulfilling the law, and Paul teaching that anyone who keeps the law is under a curse?

No I am merely saying that Jesus reminded them of the role of the Law in the gospel of the Kingdom, that Israel must still continue to keep the Law.

Paul did not exist during Matthew, so obviously the revelations that Christ revealed to him after he ascended will not apply for the gospel of the Kingdom.

Strong in Him · Jun 13, 2020

Guojing said:
Paul did not exist during Matthew,

???
Well Paul died around 64 AD, and Matthew's Gospel may, or may not, have been written by then, (some scholars think it was written before AD 70, others think it was written long after.) So technically, that statement may be correct; though it's a funny way of putting it.
You did know that Paul's epistles were written before the Gospels?

And if Israel - the Jews - do not accept that their Messiah has come, of course they must still keep their law, while they wait for him.

Guojing · Jun 13, 2020

Strong in Him said:
???
Well Paul died around 64 AD, and Matthew's Gospel may, or may not, have been written by then, (some scholars think it was written before AD 70, others think it was written long after.) So technically, that statement may be correct; though it's a funny way of putting it.
You did know that Paul's epistles were written before the Gospels?

And if Israel - the Jews - do not accept that their Messiah has come, of course they must still keep their law, while they wait for him.

read on, I said his revelations

I was obviously not referring to when the book of Matthew was written. I was talking about when Jesus was in the flesh

Strong in Him · Jun 13, 2020

Guojing said:
read on, I said his revelations

I was obviously not referring to when the book of Matthew was written. I was talking about when Jesus was in the flesh

We don't know that Paul never met Jesus. We don't know that he wasn't one of the Pharisees that argued with/rejected Jesus during his ministry.
But even if he wasn't, Saul must have known quite a lot about the followers of Jesus - he could not have persecuted them for following a false Messiah if he did not know what that Messiah had said and what they were teaching.
Just as, I have had many debates with JWs and Moonies. I know why these groups are cults, rather than Christian denominations, because I've looked into their beliefs and know how to refute them. I've never persecuted them or tried to get them off the streets, but some have.

Paul also met the other Apostles after his conversion.
You write as though all his teachings were supernaturally revealed to him from heaven. Some may have been; most weren't, and there is nothing to suggest otherwise.

Guojing · Jun 13, 2020

Strong in Him said:
You write as though all his teachings were supernaturally revealed to him from heaven. Some may have been; most weren't, and there is nothing to suggest otherwise.

Paul stated it himself. You are just not aware.

Galatians 1
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3:
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Strong in Him · Jun 13, 2020

Guojing said:
Paul stated it himself. You are just not aware.

Galatians 1
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Of course I know that.
But saying that the Gospel was taught to him by Christ, and that Jesus repeated to Paul every word that he had said to the 12, are 2 different things.

Guojing · Jun 13, 2020

Strong in Him said:
Of course I know that.
But saying that the Gospel was taught to him by Christ, and that Jesus repeated to Paul every word that he had said to the 12, are 2 different things.

It was a brand new gospel the ascended Christ revealed to him, as Galatians 1:12 stated.

Otherwise, there would not have been the need for Paul to teach the other 12 in Galatians 2:2, when he attended the Jerusalem council.

Strong in Him · Jun 13, 2020

Guojing said:
It was a brand new gospel the ascended Christ revealed to him, as Galatians 1:12 stated.

No, that's your interpretation.
I've already said that the Galatians had been told by some that Paul was not really an apostle because he was not one of the 12. They taught that Paul was a false teacher, who heard the Gospel from the disciples but had not met Jesus for himself. Paul is writing to counter that accusation.
These historical, background facts have been dismissed by you as "my own spin".

Paul was called to preach the Gospel - the Good News about Jesus - which was already being preached and had converted many. Paul himself had persecuted those who taught this Gospel.

If Paul preached a 2nd Gospel, then he was a hypocrite, because he taught that there was only one and condemned those who taught otherwise.

Guojing · Jun 13, 2020

Strong in Him said:
No, that's your interpretation.
I've already said that the Galatians had been told by some that Paul was not really an apostle because he was not one of the 12. They taught that Paul was a false teacher, who heard the Gospel from the disciples but had not met Jesus for himself. Paul is writing to counter that accusation.
These historical, background facts have been dismissed by you as "my own spin".

Paul was called to preach the Gospel - the Good News about Jesus - which was already being preached and had converted many. Paul himself had persecuted those who taught this Gospel.

If Paul preached a 2nd Gospel, then he was a hypocrite, because he taught that there was only one and condemned those who taught otherwise.

Our views will not converge so let's agree to disagree.

Otherwise, this discussion will never end, cheers.

Strong in Him · Jun 13, 2020

Guojing said:
Our views will not converge so let's agree to disagree.

Otherwise, this discussion will never end, cheers.

Sure.
The facts don't change just because you don't believe them. But if you don't, there's no point in carrying on the debate.

God bless.

Guojing · Jun 13, 2020

Strong in Him said:
Sure.
The facts don't change just because you don't believe them. But if you don't, there's no point in carrying on the debate.
Us
God bless.

Actually, all of us are stating our own interpretations and opinions here.

There is no need to elevate yours into facts just to strengthen your arguments

I am Obsessed with Paul’s Gospel — Here’s Why!

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