Circumcision of the Heart

pinacled · Jun 9, 2020

His77 said:
Asher

I wondered if the widow visited by eliyahu was from the tribe yhdh(judah.
To provide during a famine in time likened to Michal's experience.
Romans 2:29

Blessings Always

pinacled · Jun 9, 2020

Mercy74 said:
Again it is written "fruit" NOT "fruitS". You can't correctly read the text in english without adding letters but I suppose trust your "transliteration" or interpretation from the ancient text?

Personally I see michal as an exemplar of modesty and self discipline.
A rare woman of courage that speaks the truth to her husband.
Though she remained childless throughout her life due to certain circumstances.
Her Faith in Adonai is evident in her words.

Blessings Always

pinacled · Jun 10, 2020

pinacled said:
Personally I see michal as an exemplar of modesty and self discipline.
A rare woman of courage that speaks the truth to her husband.
Though she remained childless throughout her life due to certain circumstances.
Her Faith in Adonai is evident in her words.

Blessings Always

Proverbs 31

10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.

12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.

14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.

15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.

16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.

17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.

pinacled · Jun 10, 2020

His77 said:
Asher

Dignity with a conversation in oil.
There is a traditional mishna about Asher's 5 daughters that remind me of the 5 sons of michal.
Asher’s Beautiful Daughters

Blessings Always

pinacled · Jun 10, 2020

1 kings 8:9

Thera · Jun 11, 2020

Mercy74 said:
The Lord was about to kill Moses;

Exodus 4:24
And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him.

And? Zipporah showed circumcision can be a mother's responsibility.

Mercy74 said:
The sons of Moses were EXCLUDED from temple worship/service as priests although Moses their father was a priest. The sons of Aaron continued the priesthood.

I'm not sure what your point is here. You think Moses' sons were excluded from worship because they were circumcised by their mom?

pinacled said:
The answer is five like the number of fingers on a hand.

I thought Michal had no children.

2 Samuel 6:23
Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

2 Samuel 21:8
So the king took Armoni and Mephibosheth, the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bore to Saul; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite.

Mercy74 · Jun 11, 2020

Thera said:
And? Zipporah showed circumcision can be a mother's responsibility.

I'm not sure what your point is here. You think Moses' sons were excluded from worship because they were circumcised by their mom?

I thought Michal had no children.

2 Samuel 6:23
Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

2 Samuel 21:8
So the king took Armoni and Mephibosheth, the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bore to Saul; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite.

The Lord sought to kills Moses; coupled with the fact that Moses's sons were not allowed to serve before the people as priests because of Moses wife. Moses annointed Aaron and Aaron's sons served as priests. You are arguing for a "case of disobedience" that was already settled. Abraham was commanded to circumcise his sons; not Sarah. Please tell me where it is written within scripture, a mom commanded to circumcise her son?

Exodus 28:1
“Call for your brother, Aaron, and his sons, Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. Set them apart from the rest of the people of Israel so they may minister to me and be my priests.

Exodus 40:15
Anoint them as you did their father, so they may also serve me as priests. With their anointing, Aaron's descendants are set apart for the priesthood forever, from generation to generation."

visionary · Jun 11, 2020

Mercy74 said:
The Lord sought to kills Moses; coupled with the fact that Moses's sons were not allowed to serve before the people as priests because of Moses wife. Moses annointed Aaron and Aaron's sons served as priests. You are arguing for a "case of disobedience" that was already settled. Abraham was commanded to circumcise his sons; not Sarah. Please tell me where it is written within scripture, a mom commanded to circumcise her son?

Exodus 28:1
“Call for your brother, Aaron, and his sons, Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. Set them apart from the rest of the people of Israel so they may minister to me and be my priests.

Exodus 40:15
Anoint them as you did their father, so they may also serve me as priests. With their anointing, Aaron's descendants are set apart for the priesthood forever, from generation to generation."

I agree... but then the question comes up, is the mother's circumcision work invalid and what can they do to remedy this? Is it the child's fault and do they have to carry this around like a stigma?

pinacled · Jun 11, 2020

Thera said:
And? Zipporah showed circumcision can be a mother's responsibility.

I'm not sure what your point is here. You think Moses' sons were excluded from worship because they were circumcised by their mom?

I thought Michal had no children.

2 Samuel 6:23
Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

2 Samuel 21:8
So the king took Armoni and Mephibosheth, the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bore to Saul; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite.

The scripture is clear in saying that michal had five children.
If you have read certain commentaries using eisegesis to impute sin upon michal.

Ignore such comments and glean what is fruitful.

Michal with a heart of courage performed one of the most important
mitzvahs(acts) for a son or daughter when preserving the life of her husband with a first Love.

Blessings Always

Michal, daughter of Saul: Midrash and Aggadah | Jewish Women's Archive
[ The punishment prescribed for Michal (II Sam. 6:23) was that “to her dying day she had no children,” which the Rabbis interpret: she had no children until her dying day, but on her dying day she bore a son. The midrash speaks of three women who had difficult deliveries and died in childbirth: Rachel, the wife of Phinehas, and Michal daughter of Saul. Michal bleated like a sheep when giving birth and died, and therefore she was called “Eglah” (Gen. Rabbah 82:7). This aggadic tradition was meant to resolve the difficulty raised by the identification of Michal with Eglah. II Sam. 3:5 attests that Eglah had a son named Ithream, ]

pinacled · Jun 11, 2020

Question;
For all readers.

Was Michal alive to mourn her husband david?

pinacled · Jun 12, 2020

pinacled said:
Proverbs 31

10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.

12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.

14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.

15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.

16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.

17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.

While there are traditional teachings of david finding five stones to conquer the enemy with a well tanned sling.
A heart that Michal found and adored till her husbands last breath is a memory worth considering.

Five stones like 5 sons to redeem a nation.
There are some drash carrying accuracy that few find.

Circumcision of the heart with a breastplate of 12 stones and shoulder stones to number the redeemed.

Only one stone is needed to overcome.

Blessings Always

Thera · Jun 12, 2020

Mercy74 said:
The Lord sought to kills Moses; coupled with the fact that Moses's sons were not allowed to serve before the people as priests because of Moses wife. Moses annointed Aaron and Aaron's sons served as priests. You are arguing for a "case of disobedience" that was already settled.

Can you explain what you mean here? God sought to kill Moses because he had disobeyed the commandment to circumcise. However, Zipporah performed the circumcision, which was just as valid, as she saved Moses life with her act. The commandment focused on ensuring the males were circumcised, not on who was to wield the izmel.

Mercy74 said:
Abraham was commanded to circumcise his sons; not Sarah. Please tell me where it is written within scripture, a mom commanded to circumcise her son?

The commandment to circumcise was to Abraham and his seed. Can a female not be the seed of Abraham? If not, why was Timothy circumcised (Acts 16:3)? His mother was the seed of Abraham, not his father.

Genesis 17:9-11 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

visionary said:
I agree... but then the question comes up, is the mother's circumcision work invalid and what can they do to remedy this?

I think a mother's circumcision work would only be invalid if she snipped off the wrong bit...

Seriously though, the circumcision commandment focuses on the male children getting circumcised, but doesn't mention who is to perform it. That Zipporah saved Moses' life with circumcision says to me it is totally valid. Circumcision wasn't some sort of patriarchal thing, it was for all of Abraham's seed, but the commandment was that only the males needed to be circumcised. This doesn't mean females were excluded from anything related to circumcising. Some state that females were regarded as already circumcised from birth, never having a foreskin requiring circumcision.

visionary said:
Is it the child's fault and do they have to carry this around like a stigma?

Isn't this making circumcision out to be patriarchal? Why would a boy have a stigma about being circumcised by his mom? I guess I can understand to a degree where circumcision is used by men as an elitist thing against women, but I don't believe that kind of thinking is common today.

Although extrabiblical, 2 Maccabees 6:10 also informs us that mothers did take responsibility for circumcising their boys.
"For there were two women brought, who had circumcised their children; whom when they had openly led round about the city, the babes handing at their breasts, they cast them down headlong from the wall."

pinacled · Jun 12, 2020

Parashat Tetzaveh - More on the Mishkan (Tabernacle)

Mercy74 · Jun 12, 2020

pinacled said:
The scripture is clear in saying that michal had five children.
If you have read certain commentaries using eisegesis to impute sin upon michal.

Ignore such comments and glean what is fruitful.

Michal with a heart of courage performed one of the most important
mitzvahs(acts) for a son or daughter when preserving the life of her husband with a first Love.

Blessings Always

Michal, daughter of Saul: Midrash and Aggadah | Jewish Women's Archive
[ The punishment prescribed for Michal (II Sam. 6:23) was that “to her dying day she had no children,” which the Rabbis interpret: she had no children until her dying day, but on her dying day she bore a son. The midrash speaks of three women who had difficult deliveries and died in childbirth: Rachel, the wife of Phinehas, and Michal daughter of Saul. Michal bleated like a sheep when giving birth and died, and therefore she was called “Eglah” (Gen. Rabbah 82:7). This aggadic tradition was meant to resolve the difficulty raised by the identification of Michal with Eglah. II Sam. 3:5 attests that Eglah had a son named Ithream, ]

You keep lying which scripture? The hebrew or english? The torah law also tells us to have at least two witnesses to establish a truth. You have provided a hebrew translation that records "Michal" but who was Michal's husband? Michal was married? Two witnesses established Michal's marriage. Once you tell me the name of her husband you will honestly see that she had no children.

pinacled · Jun 12, 2020

Mercy74 said:
You keep lying which scripture? The hebrew or english? The torah law also tells us to have at least two witnesses to establish a truth. You have provided a hebrew translation that records "Michal" but who was Michal's husband? Michal was married? Two witnesses established Michal's marriage. Once you tell me the name of her husband you will honestly see that she had no children.

I'm well aware or Torah, the prophets, and midrashic traditions.
Regardless if michal adopted her 5 nephews after her sisters death.
They are implicitly stated to be her children.
To which such an adoption would bring the children under the head of the household that is her Legal husband David. Where before she was considered to be a widow by her father. She by the true standards of torah wasn't. Hence my reference to widows and orphans.
Their life after such is something of importance concerning further commentaries that impute sin upon david and michal both.

Blessing Always

Mercy74 · Jun 12, 2020

Thera said:
Can you explain what you mean here? God sought to kill Moses because he had disobeyed the commandment to circumcise. However, Zipporah performed the circumcision, which was just as valid, as she saved Moses life with her act. The commandment focused on ensuring the males were circumcised, not on who was to wield the izmel.

The commandment to circumcise was to Abraham and his seed. Can a female not be the seed of Abraham? If not, why was Timothy circumcised (Acts 16:3)? His mother was the seed of Abraham, not his father.

Genesis 17:9-11 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

I think a mother's circumcision work would only be invalid if she snipped off the wrong bit... Seriously though, the circumcision commandment focuses on the male children getting circumcised, but doesn't mention who is to perform it. That Zipporah saved Moses' life with circumcision says to me it is totally valid. Circumcision wasn't some sort of patriarchal thing, it was for all of Abraham's seed, but the commandment was that only the males needed to be circumcised. This doesn't mean females were excluded from anything related to circumcising. Some state that females were regarded as already circumcised from birth, never having a foreskin requiring circumcision.

Isn't this making circumcision out to be patriarchal? Why would a boy have a stigma about being circumcised by his mom? I guess I can understand to a degree where circumcision is used by men as an elitist thing against women, but I don't believe that kind of thinking is common today.

Although extrabiblical, 2 Maccabees 6:10 also informs us that mothers did take responsibility for circumcising their boys.
"For there were two women brought, who had circumcised their children; whom when they had openly led round about the city, the babes handing at their breasts, they cast them down headlong from the wall."

You keep providing your opinion, no scripture; the law explicitly says the "male" child must be circumcised, so I do not understand your undisciplined conjecture. Your understanding is not cogent.

Genesis 17:4
Any male who fails to be circumcised will be cut off from the covenant family for breaking the covenant.”

You keep ignoring the obvious truth that mothers circumcising their children as a "negative" consequence. Moses wife was rejected, his sons were not allowed to serve as priests before the people like his father. The law says that Abraham was to circumcise every male in his household which undoubtedly imply the master of father has the authority to perform the circumcision. I asked you to provide one example recorded in torah law or scripture; YHWH commanding a mother to circumcise her son? Timothy's mother who possessed the "fruit of the spirit" patiently waited for Shaul the Pharisee which allowed for Timothy to grow in the faith and serve as apostle/pastor before the people. You see it is more than just circumcision, the "law is spiritual", as Shaul the son of a Pharisee says. Thus Shaul the son of Pharisee gave Timothy much more than the removal of his foreskin. Shaul called Timothy his son. Shaul the son of a Pharisee left his mark (fleshly circumcision) on Timothy; today we have a book in the bible named after Timothy. Do we have a book in the bible named after Moses son? Moses sons were not even allowed to serve as priests/pastor in the temple or before the people. I enjoy successful lawful ministry not a step child ministry.

pinacled · Jun 12, 2020

Mercy74 said:
You keep providing your opinion, no scripture; the law explicitly says the "male" child must be circumcised, so I do not understand your undisciplined conjecture. Your understanding is not cogent.

Genesis 17:4
Any male who fails to be circumcised will be cut off from the covenant family for breaking the covenant.”

You keep ignoring the obvious truth that mothers circumcising their children as a "negative" consequence. Moses wife was rejected, his sons were not allowed to serve as priests before the people like his father. The law says that Abraham was to circumcise every male in his household which undoubtedly imply the master of father has the authority to perform the circumcision. Timothy's mother who possessed the "fruit of the spirit" patiently waited for Shaul the Pharisee which allowed for Timothy to grow in the faith and serve as apostle/pastor before the people. You see it is more than just circumcision, the "law is spiritual", as Shaul the son of a Pharisee says. Thus Shaul the son of Pharisee gave Timothy much more than the removal of his foreskin. Shaul called Timothy his son. Shaul the son of a Pharisee left his mark (fleshly circumcision) on Timothy; today we have a book in the bible named after Timothy. Do we have a book in the bible named after Moses son? Moses sons were not even allowed to serve as priests/pastor in the temple or before the people. I enjoy successful lawful ministry not a step child ministry.

Thera' is very cogent with discernment concerning circumcision of the heart.

Mercy74 · Jun 12, 2020

pinacled said:
I'm well aware or Torah, the prophets, and midrashic traditions.
Regardless if michal adopted her 5 nephews after her sisters death.
They are implicitly stated to be her children.
To which such an adoption would bring the children under the head of the household that is her Legal husband David. Where before she was considered to be a widow by her father. She by the true standards of torah wasn't. Hence my reference to widows and orphans.
Their life after such is something of importance concerning further commentaries that impute sin upon david.

Blessing Always

I asked you WHO was Michal's husband. The hebrew translation not only named Michal but also named her husband as another witness. WHO was Michal's husband when she allegedly had five sons? Then explain to me WHO was Merab's husband? Then explain to me WHEN/HOW King Shaul gave his daughter Merab/Michal to which of his son-in-laws. Each statement needs to be logical and supported with scripture. Your argument is not cogent!

Mercy74 · Jun 12, 2020

pinacled said:
Thera' is very cogent with discernment concerning circumcision of the heart.

You saying that his argument is cogent carry "no balanced weights" since many of your arguments are not cogent or supported with torah law or scripture.

pinacled · Jun 12, 2020

Mercy74 said:
I asked you WHO was Michal's husband. The hebrew translation not only named Michal but also named her husband as another witness. WHO was Michal's husband when she allegedly had five sons. Then explain to me WHO was Merab's husband? Then explain to me WHEN/HOW King Shaul gave his daughter Merab/Michal to which of his son-in-laws. Each statement needs to be logical and supported with scripture. Your argument is not cogent!

Michal shared the same husband in name as that of her sister merub if I recall correctly.

After preserving her husband David's life.
She was given by her father to another man.
Something similar that happened to shimshon(samson) with his wife.
Judges 14:20

Circumcision of the Heart

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