If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Saint Steven · May 11, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Many modern Christians it seems shy away from the good old medieval infernalism to a more general and 'politically correct' damnationist position whereby unbelievers just drift away into the outer darkness (lost in space), or otherwise are kept away from the presence of God, wailing and gnashing.

Even in Damnationism there is a spectrum of the definition of "hell".
Including the bit about "wandering stars" and "blackest darkness". I think they assumed (as would I) that the "wailing and gnashing" followed.

Jude 1:13
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Shrewd Manager · May 11, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Even in Damnationism there is a spectrum of the definition of "hell".
Including the bit about "wandering stars" and "blackest darkness". I think they assumed (as would I) that the "wailing and gnashing" followed.

Jude 1:13
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Familiar with this track?

Saint Steven · May 11, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Familiar with this track?

Familiar with Portishead. (a fan)
Hadn't heard this track. Thanks for sharing.
Definitely based on the scripture text. Wow.

I like the guitar and DJ (record scratching) trading licks, call and answer style, at the end. - lol

Shrewd Manager · May 11, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Familiar with Portishead. (a fan)
Hadn't heard this track. Thanks for sharing.
Definitely based on the scripture text. Wow.

Ah, I never liked them, but that's one I do know. It captures something of the existential vacuity of life without God imho, the sense of hopelessness.

Hence the need for revelation of the grace and truth of Jesus Christ and the one true God who saves, and from whom all the riches flow like a river with trees of life on either side.

Shrewd Manager · May 11, 2020

Saint Steven said:
I like the guitar and DJ (record scratching) trading licks, call and answer style, at the end. - lol

Thought you'd like it, a creative production, minimalist.

Saint Steven · May 11, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Thought you'd like it, a creative production, minimalist.

Their music fits in the spy movie soundtrack themed genre. Not sure if there's a specific name for it.
Are we off topic yet? Hopefully ClementofA will forgive us. - lol

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · May 12, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
only some rubbish

The Canons and Decrees of The Ecumenical Councils are Infallible.

.

Shrewd Manager · May 12, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
The Canons and Decrees of The Ecumenical Councils are Infallible.

.

If that quote were indeed a duly confirmed conciliar pronouncement, then you might have a point. Nevertheless, the anathema is in any case consistent with universalism. It is merely vague. We believe that God will eradicate evil and impiety, so therefore the effects of divine punishment will be permanent. The sinner is destroyed and the new man in Christ emerges purified and repentant.

ClementofA · May 28, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Revelation 16:9. And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".

We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

ClementofA · Jun 11, 2020

you say no sane person would choose that, but that isn't something you can know, plus Scripture shows otherwise.

It is something i can & do know, that no sane person would choose an eternity of torments vs surrendering to love & an eternity of love, joy & peace. It's a no brainer decision. Though not in all is this knowledge. Maybe something to pray & ask the Lord about for the truth, rather than trusting in dark age councils.

theirs, because they know where hell leads.

Few, if any, would have that knowledge in this life. If it would come postmortem or on Judgement Day, and they know the consequence is an eternity of torments, no sane person would choose that. And in courts of law insane people are found innocent.

And, again, if Love Omnipotent doesn't annihilate them after making that choice, but lets them suffer for eternity, how is He not responsible?

He does fail to love them when He fails to mercifully annihilate them out of the eternity of existing in torments. Or to allow the possibility of accepting His love after judgement day. Or allowing them to exist in being concieved in the first place.

George95 · Jun 21, 2020

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If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Saint Steven

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Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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Saint Steven

You can call me Steve

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Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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Saint Steven

You can call me Steve

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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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ClementofA

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George95

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