I am Obsessed with Paul’s Gospel — Here’s Why!

Strong in Him

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It does, you just refuse to read it literally.

I gave you several references where Paul said he was called to preach THE Gospel, and condemned those who taught a different one, and all you could come back with was, "I see that you avoid the KJV for that verse" and "you don't read the Bible literally."

One of the main problems today is with people who insist that ALL the Bible has to be read, and applied, literally. It was never meant to be so, and if you try, you will make it contradict itself."
 
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Guojing

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I gave you several references where Paul said he was called to preach THE Gospel, and condemned those who taught a different one, and all you could come back with was, "I see that you avoid the KJV for that verse" and "you don't read the Bible literally."

One of the main problems today is with people who insist that ALL the Bible has to be read, and applied, literally. It was never meant to be so, and if you try, you will make it contradict itself."

Its not just Galatians 2:7

I have explained to you that Peter, James and John never preached that Christ died for the sins of Israel, and rose again on the 3rd day as a sign that they are justified from all their sins.

Neither did they ever preached to Israel Romans 4:5, that they are to cease from works, to be justified.

I have shown you various scripture passages from Acts to show what they actually preached to Israel.

Up till now, you have failed to produce a single verse that stated that the 12 preached 1 Cor 15:1-4, you are just assuming they must have done that, because you have a doctrine that "There is only ONE gospel" that was preached.
 
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Lost4words

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What about Matthew 10:5?

Go not into the way of the Gentiles, or among the Gentiles. In this first mission, the apostles were ordered to preach to the Jews only, or to the children of the kingdom. (Matthew vii. 12.) See also Matthew xv. 24. and Acts xii. 46. (Witham) --- These twelve Jesus sent. In this mission of the apostles we may observe three things: first, whither Jesus sent them; secondly, what he ordered them to teach; and thirdly, what they were to do. As to the first, he tells them not to go in the way of the Gentiles, nor enter in the city of the Samaritans; but to go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. We must here take notice that this commandment, given by Christ to the apostles, of confining their preaching to the house of Israel, does not contradict one related in Matthew, (chap xxviii.) Go teach all nations, &c. We observe that these two commandments were given at two very different times; the first indeed, (the subject of our present annotation) the apostles received before the resurrection of Christ; the other after. It was necessary first to warn the Jews of the arrival of the Messias amongst them; otherwise they might have excused themselves for having rejected him, by saying, "He had sent his apostles to preach, no to them but to the Gentiles and Samaritans." (St. Jerome) --- St. Chrysostom assigns another reason why the apostles were sent first to preach in Judea, viz. that having withstood the opposition of one nation, they might be more prepared to hold out against the attacks, which they would no doubt have afterwards to sustain, in their endeavours to convert the whole world. (St. John Chrysostom) --- He forbids them to preach to the Gentiles, because it was proper that the word of God should first be announced to the Jews, children of the kingdom. See Acts chap. xiii, ver. 42. (Menochius)

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Guojing

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Go not into the way of the Gentiles, or among the Gentiles. In this first mission, the apostles were ordered to preach to the Jews only, or to the children of the kingdom. (Matthew vii. 12.) See also Matthew xv. 24. and Acts xii. 46. (Witham) --- These twelve Jesus sent. In this mission of the apostles we may observe three things: first, whither Jesus sent them; secondly, what he ordered them to teach; and thirdly, what they were to do. As to the first, he tells them not to go in the way of the Gentiles, nor enter in the city of the Samaritans; but to go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. We must here take notice that this commandment, given by Christ to the apostles, of confining their preaching to the house of Israel, does not contradict one related in Matthew, (chap xxviii.) Go teach all nations, &c. We observe that these two commandments were given at two very different times; the first indeed, (the subject of our present annotation) the apostles received before the resurrection of Christ; the other after. It was necessary first to warn the Jews of the arrival of the Messias amongst them; otherwise they might have excused themselves for having rejected him, by saying, "He had sent his apostles to preach, no to them but to the Gentiles and Samaritans." (St. Jerome) --- St. Chrysostom assigns another reason why the apostles were sent first to preach in Judea, viz. that having withstood the opposition of one nation, they might be more prepared to hold out against the attacks, which they would no doubt have afterwards to sustain, in their endeavours to convert the whole world. (St. John Chrysostom) --- He forbids them to preach to the Gentiles, because it was proper that the word of God should first be announced to the Jews, children of the kingdom. See Acts chap. xiii, ver. 42. (Menochius)

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Yes, you are correct.

So you do agree that not every word that Jesus said is life during this time, even though it was life during the period of the 4 gospels.
 
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Lost4words

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Yes, you are correct.

So you do agree that not every word that Jesus said is life during this time, even though it was life during the period of the 4 gospels.

Every word Jesus spoke is indeed life for all time.
 
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Guojing

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Every word Jesus spoke is indeed life for all time.

Are you contradicting yourself?

So we are not to preach the good news to the Gentiles now too, since you believe Matthew 10:5 is for all time?
 
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Strong in Him

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I have explained to you that Peter, James and John never preached that Christ died for the sins of Israel, and rose again on the 3rd day as a sign that they are justified from all their sins.

i) They preached that Jesus died and rose again and told the crowds to repent and ask for forgiveness. In Acts of the Apostles 5:31 Peter said that God exalted Jesus so that he might bring forgiveness to Israel.
ii) The disciples preached the Gospel, the Good News about Jesus, and many were converted when they heard it. We do not have details of everything they preached on every occasion, but they clearly preached that Jesus was the Messiah, was crucified, was raised again and that people should turn to him for forgiveness.
iii) Why do you require them to have preached that Jesus died for the sins of Israel, before you will accept that they preached the Gospel?

Neither did they ever preached to Israel Romans 4:5, that they are to cease from works, to be justified.

Romans 4:5 hadn't been written then.
As I said, we don't have details of everything they preached - that doesn't mean that they didn't, or that they preached a "different" Gospel.

I have shown you various scripture passages from Acts to show what they actually preached to Israel.

So?
That doesn't mean that they were the ONLY things that they ever preached. We don't have any evidence that they taught believers the Lord's prayer, for example; doesn't mean that they didn't.
What does it matter anyway?
The Apostles preached Jesus, crucified, raised to life and the only Saviour. The believers grew in number from 12 -> 120, were filled with God's Holy Spirit at Pentecost and then grew to more than 5000. They preached Jesus before the Jewish crowds and Jewish authorities; they were imprisoned, beaten and killed for preaching the Gospel.

Up till now, you have failed to produce a single verse that stated that the 12 preached 1 Cor 15:1-4, you are just assuming they must have done that, because you have a doctrine that "There is only ONE gospel" that was preached.

No, Paul himself says that there is only ONE Gospel.
You have failed to show that there are 2 Gospels, explained why the Gospel that the 12 preached is "false" or why it even matters. Your posts all seem to be saying, "Paul was right, the 12 were wrong because Paul wrote 1 Cor 15:1-4 and they didn't."
Paul AND the 12, preached the ONE Gospel - that Jesus died, was raised again and can give forgiveness and eternal life.
I don't see what the problem is.
 
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Guojing

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Romans 4:5 hadn't been written then.
As I said, we don't have details of everything they preached - that doesn't mean that they didn't, or that they preached a "different" Gospel.



So?
That doesn't mean that they were the ONLY things that they ever preached. We don't have any evidence that they taught believers the Lord's prayer, for example; doesn't mean that they didn't.
What does it matter anyway?

I don't see what the problem is.

Your argument is from silence, that is the problem.

I have presented to you scripture to show what they actually preached.

You assumed they must have also preached the mystery that was revealed only to Paul. Again, that is because you began with the doctrine that there is only one gospel. That doctrine is your axiom.

You subscribed to covenant theology so I can understand why you stand your ground there. Let us agree to disagree.
 
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Strong in Him

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Your argument is from silence, that is the problem.

Maybe.
But the 12 were told, by Jesus, to go into the world, make disciples, baptise and teach everything they had been taught. They were also told to be witnesses for Jesus, Acts 1:8. There is no reason to assume that they did not do those things - not having Scriptural records of everything they preached, does not mean that they didn't do it.

I have presented to you scripture to show what they actually preached.

They preached Jesus, his death and resurrection and the need to repent and be forgiven.
After they preached this, Jews and Gentiles alike received the Holy Spirit. I really don't see what the problem is.

Again, that is because you began with the doctrine that there is only one gospel. That doctrine is your axiom.

Well in that case you disagree with Paul, who was called to preach the Gospel - i.e the Gospel that existed before he was converted - and said that if anyone preached ANOTHER Gospel, they should be eternally condemned.

How many Gospels do you believe there are, and what are they?
How was Paul called to preach the Gospel, if that Gospel didn't yet exist? Why did God not say "the 12 have got it wrong/made a mess of things; here's another Gospel for you. There are now 2 Gospels; the one given to the 12 disciples by my son, and yours."

You subscribed to covenant theology

I don't know what covenant theology is.
I came into this thread to answer an implication/statement from the OP that Paul had his own Gospel which was different from that preached by Jesus' disciples.
He didn't.
Paul was called to preach THE Gospel. He was sent to the Gentiles but also preached to his fellow Jews. He may have taken a different approach in preaching to Gentiles, who didn't have the Jewish law, than Peter took in preaching to the Jews, who believed that salvation was by their law and that they, alone, were God's chosen; that doesn't mean he preached a different Gospel.
The Gospel is Jesus, the Son of God, who lived, died and was raised again; through whom we can find forgiveness of our sins and eternal life. Peter preached this, so did Paul and the other disciples.
After Saul was converted the early church, initially and understandably, found it hard to accept him, but later welcomed him. None of them, ever, said that Paul was preaching a different Gospel to them. There were problems in the early church with Judaisers and false teachers; no one ever said that there was a problem because there were 2 Gospels, or that Paul was a false apostle because he preached a different Gospel to that preached by the 12.

Some non believers questioned Paul because he had not been one of the 12, they doubted his calling as an apostle and used this as an excuse to discredit the Gospel - something I have pointed out before. There is no record, though, of them ever saying "Peter preaches a different Gospel than you do. I think I'll believe his; it suits me better". If Peter, or Paul, were wrong to preach the things they did, you would expect that a) God would not only point out their errors but rebuke them for them and b) that the Holy Spirit would not have allowed their teachings and sermons to be recorded in the NT. And if you think that he would, that is saying that the Bible is not inerrant and inspired, which is a different subject and opens up a can of worms.

It's amazing, and puzzling, that you ignore the fact of Paul being called to preach the Gospel, that he strongly condemned those who taught a different Gospel, and then say that the "doctrine" that there is only ONE Gospel is my idea, and, by implication, a false one.
Paul had a fantastic conversion, calling and ministry. He preached Jesus and the Gospel, and faced much opposition for doing so - but never from the other Apostles.[/QUOTE]
 
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The Liturgist

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It is gravely erroneous, and indeed condemned by the Apostle Paul himself, to regard his works in isolation apart from the four canonical Gospels and the epistles of the other Apostles, as the extent of the Gospel as such.
 
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Guojing

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It is gravely erroneous, and indeed condemned by the Apostle Paul himself, to regard his works in isolation apart from the four canonical Gospels and the epistles of the other Apostles, as the extent of the Gospel as such.

Paul himself stated in vs 6 clearly that his gospel is different from the other apostles, they added nothing to him.

Galatians 2
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
 
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Lost4words

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Are you contradicting yourself?

So we are not to preach the good news to the Gentiles now too, since you believe Matthew 10:5 is for all time?

Interpretation, interpretation, interpretation
 
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Strong in Him

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Paul himself stated in vs 6 clearly that his gospel is different from the other apostles,

No, he doesn't.

they added nothing to him.

They didn't say that he was a false apostle, not an Apostle at all or was preaching a different Gospel.

You're going to ignore all I wrote about Paul being called to preach the Gospel - which shows that it already existed - and many being converted after Peter and co preached, because of your interpretation of one verse in one book of the NT?
Like I said, if there are two Gospels; what are they?
Which is correct, the one given by Jesus to his disciples or the one preached by Paul which, you say, is different?
Why didn't the apostles condemn him for preaching a different Gospel, and why did Paul himself, not me, say that there is only ONE?
 
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Guojing

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Like I said, if there are two Gospels; what are they?
Which is correct, the one given by Jesus to his disciples or the one preached by Paul which, you say, is different?
Why didn't the apostles condemn him for preaching a different Gospel, and why did Paul himself, not me, say that there is only ONE?

I already explained to you the difference between the Gospel of the kingdom, which is of the circumcision, and the gospel of grace, which is of the uncircumcision in previous posts.

If you don't accept the explaination, I am fine, but stop asking the same questions all the time.
 
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Strong in Him

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I already explained to you the difference between the Gospel of the kingdom, which is of the circumcision, and the gospel of grace, which is of the uncircumcision in previous posts.

If you don't accept the explaination, I am fine, but stop asking the same questions all the time.

Obviously I must have missed the explanation, or I wouldn't have asked again.

I do reject that there are two Gospels.

THE Gospel is the Good News about Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Mark 1:1, John 20:31. This Gospel about Jesus - his birth, ministry, death and resurrection - was prophesied in the OT, Romans 1:1-4, and the Gospel writers often showed how Jesus fulfilled prophecy. Jesus chose 12 men to be his disciples and, after the resurrection, charged 11 of them with the task of teaching others about him and making disciples. After receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, Peter and the others boldly preached the Good News about Jesus and urged people to repent of their sins. They performed miracles, proving that what they said was true, and many accepted the Good News that they preached.
Saul of Tarsus, who was a Pharisee and persecuted the church for what they preached, later met the risen Christ, was convicted and converted and spent his life preaching the Gospel; the Good News about Jesus.
There were many who opposed and attacked the Gospel and that time, and those who tried to change it, insist there were "other" Gospels or add to it. Paul condemned them, 2 Corinthians 11:4, Galatians 2:7.
 
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Guojing

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Obviously I must have missed the explanation, or I wouldn't have asked again.

I do reject that there are two Gospels.

THE Gospel is the Good News about Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Mark 1:1, John 20:31. This Gospel about Jesus - his birth, ministry, death and resurrection - was prophesied in the OT, Romans 1:1-4, and the Gospel writers often showed how Jesus fulfilled prophecy. Jesus chose 12 men to be his disciples and, after the resurrection, charged 11 of them with the task of teaching others about him and making disciples. After receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, Peter and the others boldly preached the Good News about Jesus and urged people to repent of their sins. They performed miracles, proving that what they said was true, and many accepted the Good News that they preached.
Saul of Tarsus, who was a Pharisee and persecuted the church for what they preached, later met the risen Christ, was convicted and converted and spent his life preaching the Gospel; the Good News about Jesus.
There were many who opposed and attacked the Gospel and that time, and those who tried to change it, insist there were "other" Gospels or add to it. Paul condemned them, 2 Corinthians 11:4, Galatians 2:7.

Salvation for all of us now is based on 1 Cor 15:1-4. You believe Christ died for your sins and rose again on the 3rd day. Under the gospel of grace, we get salvation the moment we believed that.

But that is not what John 3:16 and Acts 4:12 was saying. Salvation for the Jews then was the need to believe that Jesus is their promised Messiah, they have to be water baptized and continue in the Law of Moses.

Under the gospel of the kingdom, which was valid then, Jews are only saved at the end, when they are finally ushered into their promised Kingdom, which will happen when Jesus returns for them and sits on the throne in Jerusalem.

Acts 3:19-20
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

1 Peter 1

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
 
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Strong in Him

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Salvation for all of us now is based on 1 Cor 15:1-4.

Thanks for posting this again.
I'm not happy with the word "now"; it implies that this is a fairly new thing and that formerly salvation was through something else.

You believe Christ died for your sins and rose again on the 3rd day. Under the gospel of grace, we get salvation the moment we believed that.

If we really accept it, are born again and trust in Jesus for eternal life rather than trying to get to heaven by our own good deeds, yes. I know people who accept that intellectually but it makes no difference to their lives.

But that is not what John 3:16 and Acts 4:12 was saying. Salvation for the Jews then was the need to believe that Jesus is their promised Messiah, they have to be water baptized and continue in the Law of Moses.

No, I don't agree with that.
The Jews had been waiting for their Messiah for centuries. They believed that when he came he would bring in the Kingdom of God, defeat their enemies and that they (the Jews) would be recognised and rewarded as God's own people.
Peter, and Paul, were preaching that the Messiah had come, and was Jesus of Nazareth, whom they had met, known, heard and crucified.
Jesus' first words in his ministry were; "the time has come, the Kingdom of God is near, repent and believe the Good News", Mark 1:15. Jesus quoted from the OT often during his ministry, and he, and the Gospel writers, showed how he fulfilled prophecy. After the resurrection Jesus explained how the Scriptures spoke about him, Luke 24:27, Luke 24:45. During his ministry, Jesus said that he had come to fulfil the law and the prophets.
Salvation is through JESUS alone, just as it is for Gentiles. There is no indication that Jesus told his disciples, or anyone else, to believe in him, receive eternal life, be born again - and continue to keep the Jewish law.

Under the gospel of the kingdom, which was valid then, Jews are only saved at the end, when they are finally ushered into their promised Kingdom,

I think dozens, if not hundreds, of Messianic Jews who have faith in Jesus and eternal life NOW would disagree with that.
I see no Scriptural evidence for a "2 tier" system of salvation - that Gentiles who accept Jesus receive eternal life and would go to heaven NOW if they die, whereas believing Jews, who have eternal life through Jesus, have to wait til the end of the world.

The Kingdom of God is here NOW, and is everywhere Jesus is acknowledged as King. It will not fully come in and be perfectly established until he returns as King, but those who are saved, both Jews and Gentiles, have faith in Jesus and have received eternal life are in the Kingdom of God now, and called to further that kingdom by preaching Jesus, baptising in his name and making disciples.

Acts 3:19-20
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Yes, if they repented they would receive eternal life, salvation through Christ and Jesus would live in them through his Spirit.
I have read a number of testimonies from Messianic Jews who believe just that. Unlike their compatriots, their faith is complete - the Messiah has come, they are children of God and are part of his kingdom now.

1 Peter 1

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

This also agrees with what I have just said.
ALL believers have an inheritance in heaven; Paul said that the Holy Spirit, given to us NOW, is a guarantee of that inheritance, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:14.
That doesn't mean that we only receive eternal life when we get to heaven. Paul, and others, taught that there are rewards awaiting us in heaven.

When Jews accept that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, that he has come and achieved deliverance from sin, and salvation for them, it is not so much the "end" of their faith, as in annihilation, but "completion" - the one promised from the Garden of Eden, and spoken of by the Patriarchs of the faith, and OT prophets, HAS come, and, as the 2nd Adam, can save their souls from eternal death.
Gentiles were not waiting for a Messiah, but we are saved in the same way, through faith in Jesus. John 3:16 says "WHOEVER" believes in him - belief in Jesus means accepting who he is, God and man; Messiah, Saviour and Lord.
 
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Guojing

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Salvation is through JESUS alone, just as it is for Gentiles. There is no indication that Jesus told his disciples, or anyone else, to believe in him, receive eternal life, be born again - and continue to keep the Jewish law.

I think dozens, if not hundreds, of Messianic Jews who have faith in Jesus and eternal life NOW would disagree with that.

Jesus spelt it out clearly in Matthew 5:17-19 about the role of the law in the gospel of the kingdom.

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

As for Messianic Jews, they are all in the Body of Christ, which came from Paul's gospel of grace. The gospel of the kingdom has been postponed ever since Romans 11, so they are saved under 1 Cor 15:1-4, just like us.
 
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