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ArmyMatt

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Why honor that choice & cut off any further chances of accepting His love? Thus leading to hell & torments for eternity. That's not the will of a loving being, but a sicko sadist.

because they are at the point where they will never accept His love. for those in hell, their answer to God will always be no.
 
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ClementofA

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if people in this life are not given that many chances, you don't know that someone will or will not reject God a trillion times.

If the omniscient being knew in advance they would reject him trillions of times, which is virtually mathematically impossible, this being should not have created/conceived them to begin with. But he did, knowing their fate. How is that not a sicko sadistic being?
 
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ClementofA

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because they are at the point where they will never accept His love. for those in hell, their answer to God will always be no.

Whose fault is that for creating beings that can reach a point where they will "never accept His love"? He created them poorly, if that is the case, that even His omnipotence can no longer reach them with His love. So how is that not a sicko sadistic being?
 
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ArmyMatt

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If the omniscient being knew in advance they would reject him trillions of times, which is virtually mathematically impossible, this being should not have created/conceived them to begin with. But he did, knowing their fate. How is that not a sicko sadistic being?

because He loves, and He loves infinitely, which means He never stops loving those who hate Him.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Whose fault is that for creating beings that can reach a point where they will "never accept His love"? He created them poorly, if that is the case, that even His omnipotence can no longer reach them with His love. So how is that not a sicko sadistic being?

theirs, because they know where hell leads.
 
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ClementofA

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because He loves, and He loves infinitely, which means He never stops loving those who hate Him.

He does fail to love them when He fails to mercifully annihilate them out of the eternity of existing in torments. Or to allow the possibility of accepting His love after judgement day. Or allowing them to exist in being concieved in the first place.

Moreover:

So God has made it so after Judgement Day they are not able to accept His love as the saints do. Whose fault is that? How is God then not a sick sadist for eternity?

As i said:


Millions today are not tormented by "the peace and love and light that God IS". Is Love Omnipotent going to force these hellish blessings on those tormented in hell? Whose fault is that? As i said:

God is already omnipresent. And many people go through their lives "enjoying the pleasures of sin" happily without being tormented by Him or His love. So Love Omnipotent, instead of tormenting His created beings for eternity, could put each wicked person on their own planet where they could harm no one else & enjoy the pleasures of sin for eternity. Such as the pleasures of music, films, books, drugs, sex & other entertainments. He could even help them turn off negative thoughts.

If you think that's what they'll experience in hell, then we're more or less agreed, everyone will be saved & experience a blessed eternity. Those who accepted God in a superior way.

If you don't think God will let them experience a blessed eternity, but one of torments, then does that make God a sicko sadist for eternity?

Is God powerless to create a virtual eternity of pleasure for those destined to "hell"? Is God impotent? Is He forced to watch impotently as sufferings continue for eternity? What kind of a God is that? Sadistic? Stupid in how He created & ordered things? Weak & not having all power in heaven and earth?
 
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ClementofA

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theirs, because they know where hell leads.

Few, if any, would have that knowledge in this life. If it would come postmortem or on Judgement Day, and they know the consequence is an eternity of torments, no sane person would choose that. And in courts of law insane people are found innocent.

And, again, if Love Omnipotent doesn't annihilate them after making that choice, but lets them suffer for eternity, how is He not responsible & a sicko sadist, rather than Love?

He does fail to love them when He fails to mercifully annihilate them out of the eternity of existing in torments. Or to allow the possibility of accepting His love after judgement day. Or allowing them to exist in being concieved in the first place.
 
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Lukaris

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If we as individuals realize we need a savior, then perhaps a possibility for all to be saved may exist. That is the domain of God, not us, to decide. Any person whether Christian or not, can be saved but that is the Lord’s judgment ( John 5:22-30, Matthew 25:31-46 etc.). It sounds good to tell someone that all will be saved and a terrible deception to those who needed repentance but neglected it when death occurs. We are not Unitarian Universalists.
 
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ClementofA

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We are not Unitarian Universalists.

I can't say i've ever seen a UU on any of the many forums where Christian universalists post, & perhaps only rarely in any of the dozens of books i've seen on the subject of Biblical, purgatorial or Patristic univeralism.
 
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ClementofA

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If we as individuals realize we need a savior, then perhaps a possibility for all to be saved may exist.

John 1:9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

1 Tim.2:4who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; 5for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who did give himself a ransom for all — the testimony in its own times —

That is the domain of God, not us, to decide.

Who have been God's enemies? All:

Rom.5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.



God as "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) has nothing to do with authority, but God "in" every being who ever lived. "To say that "all in all" signifies "the manifestation of God's supremacy"...is very far indeed from the truth...When we say "Christ is my all," what do we mean? That He is our Lord? Yes, and our Saviour and Friend and our Lover, our Wisdom and our Righteousness, and our Holiness--He is everything to us!...And that is just what God wishes to be and what He will be!...Will He be this only in some? No! He will be All in all!...we have said that when the last enemy [death] is abolished, then the Son abdicates and God becomes All in all. If there were still enmity we might imagine God being over all, but with all enmity gone, it is easy to see how He can become All in all...The "kingdom" is given up to the Father, after all sovereignty and authority and power have been abrogated. What kind of a "supremacy" will God "fully manifest" which has no power, no authority, no sovereignty? Thank God, all these elements, which characterized government during the eons, will be utterly unnecessary when the Son of God is finished with His "mediatorial" work. Instead of God's supremacy being fully manifested at that time, it will be entirely absent, and God, as Father, will guide His family by the sweet constraint of love."


Any person whether Christian or not, can be saved but that is the Lord’s judgment ( John 5:22-30, Matthew 25:31-46 etc.).

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

It sounds good to tell someone that all will be saved and a terrible deception to those who needed repentance but neglected it when death occurs.

Why wouldn't the good news that all will be saved, even those who choose hell, lead to repentance, as opposed to the doctrine of a sicko for eternity sadist? After all, Scripture doesn't say it is the fear of an eternity of torments that leads to repentance, but the goodness of God that leads to repentance. And we love Him, not because He's got an eternity of torments ahead for us if we don't, but because He first loved us. In fact many millions of unbelievers reject Christ & many millions of others have left the churches because of the sadist for eternity dogma.

Rom.2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
 
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ArmyMatt

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He does fail to love them when He fails to mercifully annihilate them out of the eternity of existing in torments. Or to allow the possibility of accepting His love after judgement day. Or allowing them to exist in being concieved in the first place.

Moreover:

So God has made it so after Judgement Day they are not able to accept His love as the saints do. Whose fault is that? How is God then not a sick sadist for eternity?

As i said:


Millions today are not tormented by "the peace and love and light that God IS". Is Love Omnipotent going to force these hellish blessings on those tormented in hell? Whose fault is that? As i said:

God is already omnipresent. And many people go through their lives "enjoying the pleasures of sin" happily without being tormented by Him or His love. So Love Omnipotent, instead of tormenting His created beings for eternity, could put each wicked person on their own planet where they could harm no one else & enjoy the pleasures of sin for eternity. Such as the pleasures of music, films, books, drugs, sex & other entertainments. He could even help them turn off negative thoughts.

If you think that's what they'll experience in hell, then we're more or less agreed, everyone will be saved & experience a blessed eternity. Those who accepted God in a superior way.

If you don't think God will let them experience a blessed eternity, but one of torments, then does that make God a sicko sadist for eternity?

Is God powerless to create a virtual eternity of pleasure for those destined to "hell"? Is God impotent? Is He forced to watch impotently as sufferings continue for eternity? What kind of a God is that? Sadistic? Stupid in how He created & ordered things? Weak & not having all power in heaven and earth?

someone can't give permission to exist prior to their existence. love doesn't annihilate. and they eternally choose to reject Him.

also, people now live prior to Judgment Day. when speaking about hell we are talking about afterwards. so they can live in sin now if they want, but eventually they will confront the God they rebel against.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Few, if any, would have that knowledge in this life. If it would come postmortem or on Judgement Day, and they know the consequence is an eternity of torments, no sane person would choose that. And in courts of law insane people are found innocent.

And, again, if Love Omnipotent doesn't annihilate them after making that choice, but lets them suffer for eternity, how is He not responsible & a sicko sadist, rather than Love?

He does fail to love them when He fails to mercifully annihilate them out of the eternity of existing in torments. Or to allow the possibility of accepting His love after judgement day. Or allowing them to exist in being concieved in the first place.

you say no sane person would choose that, but that isn't something you can know, plus Scripture shows otherwise.
 
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ClementofA

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someone can't give permission to exist prior to their existence.

If Love Omnipotent knew their choice of an eternity of torments prior to creation/conception, then how is He not an eternal sadist?

love doesn't annihilate.

Love acts in the best interest of those in hell. If their existence is defined as an eternity of torments without annihilation, then annihilation is what He must do to them. Otherwise He's an eternal sadistic sicko.

and they eternally choose to reject Him.

Only because He determined the hourglass would expire at judgement day, thereafter locking them into that choice for eternity. That is this God's doing for which He is responsible. And that is not Love.

also, people now live prior to Judgment Day. when speaking about hell we are talking about afterwards. so they can live in sin now if they want, but eventually they will confront the God they rebel against.

Only because God forces that upon them. He doesn't have to & could let them live happily in sin's pleasures forever, instead of eternity's torments.

-----

As I said:

Millions today are not tormented by "the peace and love and light that God IS". Is Love Omnipotent going to force these hellish blessings on those tormented in hell? Whose fault is that? As i said:

God is already omnipresent. And many people go through their lives "enjoying the pleasures of sin" happily without being tormented by Him or His love. So Love Omnipotent, instead of tormenting His created beings for eternity, could put each wicked person on their own planet where they could harm no one else & enjoy the pleasures of sin for eternity. Such as the pleasures of music, films, books, drugs, sex & other entertainments. He could even help them turn off negative thoughts.

If you think that's what they'll experience in hell, then we're more or less agreed, everyone will be saved & experience a blessed eternity. Those who accepted God in a superior way.

If you don't think God will let them experience a blessed eternity, but one of torments, then does that make God a sicko sadist for eternity?

Is God powerless to create a virtual eternity of pleasure for those destined to "hell"? Is God impotent? Is He forced to watch impotently as sufferings continue for eternity? What kind of a God is that? Sadistic? Stupid in how He created & ordered things? Weak & not having all power in heaven and earth?
 
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ClementofA

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you say no sane person would choose that, but that isn't something you can know, plus Scripture shows otherwise.

It is something i can & do know, that no sane person would choose an eternity of torments vs surrendering to love & an eternity of love, joy & peace. It's a no brainer decision. Though not in all is this knowledge. Maybe something to pray & ask the Lord about for the truth, rather than trusting in dark age councils.

theirs, because they know where hell leads.

Few, if any, would have that knowledge in this life. If it would come postmortem or on Judgement Day, and they know the consequence is an eternity of torments, no sane person would choose that. And in courts of law insane people are found innocent.

And, again, if Love Omnipotent doesn't annihilate them after making that choice, but lets them suffer for eternity, how is He not responsible & a sicko sadist, rather than Love?

He does fail to love them when He fails to mercifully annihilate them out of the eternity of existing in torments. Or to allow the possibility of accepting His love after judgement day. Or allowing them to exist in being concieved in the first place.
 
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ClementofA

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Posting the same thing again and again and again is against CF rules.
No wonder these threads end up being locked.

Actually i think Army Matt & I have been breaking in some new ground never seen before. That's the advantage of rehashing subjects over & over again. You get new thoughts over time as people learn more from year to year. And new participants get involved who offer up new & interesting things. I certainly know more about universalism than i did one, two or three years ago, let alone when i first accepted it as being scriptural 4 decades ago as a rather young new born again Christian.

One thread was recently locked because of non EO not being allowed to debate one other. And in the other thread the same guy came in and made a post to me, and then it was locked.
 
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prodromos

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Actually i think Army Matt & I have been breaking in some new ground never seen before. That's the advantage of rehashing subjects over & over again. You get new thoughts over time as people learn more from year to year. And new participants get involved who offer up new & interesting things. I certainly know more about universalism than i did one, two or three years ago, let alone when i first accepted it as truth 4 decades ago as a rather young new born again Christian.

One thread was locked because of non EU not allowed to talk to debate one other. And in the other thread the same guy came in and made a post to me, and then it was locked.
Posting the same thing over and over is against the rules, and you have been doing that consistently.
 
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prodromos

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Where is this rule & where did i do what you allege?
Terms of Service and Christian Forum Rules | Christian Forums
Under the heading of "Copyright Legalities, Spamming and Advertising, Signatures, Videos"
  • Repetitive posting of similar or identical posts or threads is not allowed.
As to where you have done this, I prefer to assume you are capable of reading back through your posts on the now locked thread. You have big chunks of identical text you've copy/pasted in one post after another.
 
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ClementofA

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Terms of Service and Christian Forum Rules | Christian Forums
Under the heading of "Copyright Legalities, Spamming and Advertising, Signatures, Videos"
  • Repetitive posting of similar or identical posts or threads is not allowed.
As to where you have done this, I prefer to assume you are capable of reading back through your posts on the now locked thread. You have big chunks of identical text you've copy/pasted in one post after another.

I think i'm doing fine in that regard, following how the Holy Spirit of Christ is leading me. And, if others think not, there are endless forums on the internet, in any case...to speak the Truth i have to share & some really good news. Including many EO sites, one of my favs. Being retired i have all day every day to spend at such.

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
 
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