Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

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The usual litany of UR rationalizations with 2-3 verses.
Did God humble all the people destroyed in these verses, not the survivors? Where is the positive purpose for the people killed?

Genesis 19:24-25 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Numbers 21:3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.
Deuteronomy 20:16-17 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
ClementofA said:
Where? It's stated in the verse i posted. Eccl.1:13.
The usual UR nonsense.
Ecc 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
This verse says absolutely nothing about any positive affect for the people being destroyed, in the verses above.
When one chooses a verse to support their heterodox belief they should read the entire chapter, book etc. instead of just copy/pasting out-of-context proof texts from UR-R-us.kom.
Let us read a bit further in Eccles.

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Eccl 1:13 cannot mean there is some positive effect for those destroyed in Sodom, Gomorrah, the flood etc. when the same writer later in the same writing says that the dead know nothing and there is no more reward for the dead vs. 9:5.
 
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ClementofA

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Revelation 20:10......
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

.


""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. :idea: Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."


But again, what does the Word of God actually say...…...Revelation 20:10-----
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

So my and YOUR choice is, who do I believe, Gregory McDonald and the Universalist theology, or the Word of God.

How about Augustine, the champion of endless tortures, even for infants?

Or Scripture, unlike the twisted excuse for it you posted above:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4

Aeon - Wikipedia

AIN -- AINIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?
 
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ClementofA

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Your exegesis of Hebrews 10:29 is incorrect as is most of the other Scriptures you have used.

The CONTEXT which you do not seem to understand is found in Hebrews 10:26...……..
"FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY".

THE PARTICIPLE IS IN THE PRESENT TENSE, MEANING THAT THE ACT IS habitual.

The use of the adverb "WILLFULLY" tells us that this sin is deliberate and intentional. IT IS A SIN OF CHOICE.

When that is the case, the Jews who had accepted Christ then CHOOSE to go back to Judaism, then there remained no more sacrifice for their sins.

In other words, when they CHOOSE to leave Christ they would be eternally lost.

Those in 1 Tim.1:19-20 had left Christ but were not eternally lost. In fact God was seeking to save them:

19holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme

As for Heb.10:26, you misinterpret it:

No more sacrifice for sins applies to those forgiven as well:

Heb.10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. (NASB)
Heb.10:18 But where there [is] remission of these, [there is] no longer a sacrifice for sin. (DBY)
Heb.10:18 and where forgiveness of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (YLT)

The meaning is not that if they sin they can't be forgiven. They can (1 Jn.1:9). The same applies to those of v.26. So your argument is a failure.

The meaning of no more sacrifice for sin is that Christ's sacrifice ended all sacrifices for sin. There are no more. There will be no more.

His sacrifice is sufficient to take away everyone's sins & that is exactly what it will do:

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Taking away the world's sin (Jn.1:29) shall make the world sinless. So, yeah, all will be saved.

Hebrews 10:26-27 – For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

Does that say the sacrifice of Christ is "no longer applicable" forever & ever like a fictional unpardonable sin, or "no longer applicable" as long as it is rejected & not being applied?

Here's one opinion in that regard:

"The verb "sin" in this verse is present tense (as are the verbs "remains" and "will consume"). Since present tense in Greek typically indicates an ongoing, continuous action, the passage can better be translated as: "For if we continuously sin deliberately, after having once received the knowledge of the truth, there continuously remains no further sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will continuously consume the adversaries." "

"So if one ceases to continuously sin by remaining apart from the Messiah, then Messiah's sacrifice for one's sins becomes operative again. It is now available for one since one has stopped the continuous sin of apostasy and can now be united with Christ. (Note the parallelism of the continuous sinning with the continuous remaining of no further sacrifice; when the former vanishes, the latter does as well—and the same is true of a person who continuously fails to repent of sin in general.) Thus if an apostate (to Judaism or whatever else) ceases to be an apostate, he can be saved. There is no unforgivable sin taught in this text."

Hebrews 10 and 6

Another comment from the same thread says:

"My understanding of Heb 10:26 is simple. There is no further sacrifice for sins. Jesus provided the only sacrifice, and if we don't want that sacrifice, well -- there's nothing else. There is no further sacrifice for sins. That's it; take it or leave it (but eventually you WILL decide to take it because the alternative simply makes no sense at all.) The fearful judgment (v.27) will consume the adversaries; it will not consume the beloved (the world for whom God gave His only begotten Son). The last adversary is death and that too will be consumed, leaving nothing but life!"

You might also find the following discussions re the context of Hebrews 10 of interest, including commentary by Jason Pratt:

Hebrews 10:28-29

Hebrews 6 and 10 - A Universalist Reaction?

Hebrews 10:26-27

Heb.10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. (NASB)
Heb.10:18 But where there [is] remission of these, [there is] no longer a sacrifice for sin. (DBY)
Heb.10:18 and where forgiveness of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (YLT)

Heb.10:26 there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, {RSV}
Heb.10:26 there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,{AV}

"There is no more offering for sin...there is left no place for the Levitical sacrifices under the new covenant." (Vincent's Word Studies)

Heb.10:12 But when this Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God.
Heb.7:27 Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people;
He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself.

"there is no more offering for sin; there may be other offerings, as of praise and thanksgiving, but none for sin; "there is no need", as the Syriac version; or there is not required, as the Arabic version; there is no need of the reiteration of Christ's sacrifice, nor will he be offered up any more, nor of the repetition of legal sacrifices, nor ought they to continue any longer. The Jews themselves say (w), that

"in the time to come (i.e. in the times of the Messiah) all offerings shall cease, but the sacrifice of praise.''

And one of their writers says (x), when

"the King Messiah, the son of David, shall reign, there will be no need of "an atonement", nor of deliverance, or prosperity, for all these things will be had;'' (Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible)

Hebrews 10:18 Commentaries: Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

The NIV Study Bible notes to Heb.10:18 say that "no additional sacrifice for sins is needed" {p.1870}.

Heb.10:26 For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains in reserve any other sacrifice for sins. {WEY}

"there remains no further sacrifice for sin": since Christ's work on the cross dying for the world's sins is the sacrifice that ends all sacrifices for sin, there is no other place to go but Christ for the forgiveness we all need, both at salvation as unbelievers and thereafter as members of His Body.

This is allegedly from Marvin Vincent's commentary in his New Testament Word Studies:

"The writer does not touch the question of the possibility of God’s renewing such to repentance. He merely puts his own hypothetical case, and says that, in the nature of such a case, the ordinary considerations and means which are applied to induce men to embrace the gospel no longer appeal to the subjects supposed. He contemplates nothing beyond such agencies, and asserts that these are powerless because the man has brought himself into a condition where they can no longer exert any power."

"Whether God will ever reclaim by ways of his own is a point which is not even touched. Destruction of the faculty of spiritual discernment is the natural outcome of deliberate and persistent sin, and the instrument of its punishment. Note, “renew unto repentance.” God promises pardon on penitence, but not penitence on sin."


Hebrews 10 and 6

"The assertion of Kurtz, that, if this remark were true, the author would be expressing “a dogma in its consequences truly subversive, and destructive of the whole Christian soteriology,” inasmuch as it would “imperatively follow therefrom, that even under the New Covenant only those who transgressed from ignorance and error could find forgiveness with God for Christ’s sake, while all who had been guilty of a conscious and intentional sin must beyond hope of deliverance fall victims to the judgment of everlasting damnation,” is a precipitate one, since the special limitation within which the expression ἑκουσίως ἁμαρτάνειν was used was naturally afforded to the reader, quite apart from the investigation already preceding at Hebrews 6:4 ff., even from our section itself." (Meyer's NT Commentary)

"there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins] Lit., “no sacrifice for sins is any longer left for them.” They have rejected the work of Christ, and it cannot be done for them over again. There is one atoning sacrifice and that they have repudiated. He does not say that they have exhausted the infinite mercy of God, nor can we justly assert that he held such a conclusion; he only says that they have, so long as they continue in such a state, put themselves out of God’s covenant, and that there are no other covenanted means of grace. For they have trampled under foot the offer of mercy in Christ and there is no salvation in any other (Acts 4:12)." (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges)

"There remaineth no more sacrifice for sins (οὐκέτι περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἀπολείπεται θυσία)"

"Of course not. For the Levitical sacrifices are abolished. It is Christ's sacrifice or none." (Vincent's Word Studies)

Hebrews 10:26 Commentaries: For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Those who had thrust away faith with a good conscience, and had made shipwreck of the faith, were given over to Satan that they may be trained not to blaspheme {1 Tim.1:19-20}. This seems to be an example of willfully sinning after knowing the truth, as in Hebrews 10, yet those who do such were still being trained or disciplined for their own good. The NIV Study Bible says such action was more remedial than punitive. Similarly is 1 Corinthians 5:4-5:

4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord

1 Tim.1:19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away, made shipwreck concerning the faith,
20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan, that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

Psa.119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.
68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.

In Hebrews chapter 2 we read of a "fair reward" for the disobedient:

2:1 Therefore we must more exceedingly be heeding what is being heard, lest at some time we may be drifting by. 2 For if the word spoken through messengers came to be confirmed, and every transgression and disobedience obtained a fair reward

Heb 10:26b no longer a sacrifice for sin (NAS). Compare the same Greek words at Mk.9:8 translated "any longer":

Mk.9:8 And suddenly, looking around, they saw no one any longer, but Jesus alone with themselves.

Did they not see any man "any longer" after that time except Jesus? Obviously they did see other men, so the words "any longer" does not support the contention re Heb.10:26 that God would "never" again allow some to be beneficiaries of the sacrifice of Christ.

26 For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins, 27 but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, about to be eating the hostile. (CLV) Hebrews 10 For the law, having a shadow of the impending good things, not the selfsame image of the matters, they, with their same sacrifices which they are offering year by year, are never able to perfect to a finality those approaching."

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejecters would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
 
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ClementofA

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The usual litany of UR rationalizations with 2-3 verses.
Did God humble all the people destroyed in these verses, not the survivors? Where is the positive purpose for the people killed?

Genesis 19:24-25 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.


It doesn't say they are humbled but the experience is given to them to humble them:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13).

BTW, is "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) not also "under the heavens". Evidently the experience of evil there is given by God to humble them. See Eccl.1:13 above.

Dying people may call on God to forgive them. Ever heard of death bed repentance? And when dead they go somewhere where Eccl. 1:13 continues to apply.



The usual UR nonsense.
Ecc 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
This verse says absolutely nothing about any positive affect for the people being destroyed, in the verses above.

Young's Literal Translation
And I have given my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom concerning all that hath been done under the heavens. It is a sad travail God hath given to the sons of man to be humbled by it.

Ecclesiastes 9:3
3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever [olam] in any thing that is done under the sun.

The dead have no more reward. And they do not have "any more a portion for ever [see vs. 3;14 above] in any thing that is done under the sun."

True as far as their bodies in the "grave" (v.10) are concerned. Until the "age" arrives when they will be raised from the dead:

Their love also, their hatred also, their envy also, hath already perished, and they have no more a portion TO THE AGE in all that hath been done under the sun. (Eccl.9:6, Young's Literal Translation).

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the ***GRAVE*** where you are going. (9:10)



Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Here the writer says there is no "work, device, knowledge nor wisdom in the grave." Ain't nothin' happenin' down there.

Right. Dead corpses in graves don't think or go to work.

 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
It doesn't say they are humbled but the experience is given to them to humble them:
ClementofA said:
Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13).
BTW, is "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) not also "under the heavens". Evidently the experience of evil there is given by God to humble them. See Eccl.1:13 above.
Dying people may call on God to forgive them. Ever heard of death bed repentance? And when dead they go somewhere where Eccl. 1:13 continues to apply.
Another example of "Don't read anything just post a big block of pre-written stuff that doesn't address anything in any specific post."
"BTW, is 'hell;' (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) not also 'under the heavens'".
Try actually reading my post this time.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
The writer who wrote your proof text, presumably Solomon, later in the same writing also said,
JPS Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is long ago perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
The 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation is an irrefutable "literal version" which has no Christian bias of any kind.
OTOH Robert Young who wrote the so-called literal version was self taught in Greek. p. 490
Young Robert: Lay theologian and orientalist; b. at Edinburgh Sept. 10, 1822; d. there Oct. 14, 1888. He received his education at private schools, 1827-38; served an apprenticeship to the printing business, 1838-45, using his spare time to study the oriental 1anguages became a communicant in 1842; joined the Free Church, and became a Sabbath-school teacher in 1843.
Philip Schaff: New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII: Trench - Zwingli - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 
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Major1

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Those in 1 Tim.1:19-20 had left Christ but were not eternally lost. In fact God was seeking to save them:

19holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme

As for Heb.10:26, you misinterpret it:

No more sacrifice for sins applies to those forgiven as well:

Heb.10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. (NASB)
Heb.10:18 But where there [is] remission of these, [there is] no longer a sacrifice for sin. (DBY)
Heb.10:18 and where forgiveness of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (YLT)

The meaning is not that if they sin they can't be forgiven. They can (1 Jn.1:9). The same applies to those of v.26. So your argument is a failure.

The meaning of no more sacrifice for sin is that Christ's sacrifice ended all sacrifices for sin. There are no more. There will be no more.

His sacrifice is sufficient to take away everyone's sins & that is exactly what it will do:

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Taking away the world's sin (Jn.1:29) shall make the world sinless. So, yeah, all will be saved.

Hebrews 10:26-27 – For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

Does that say the sacrifice of Christ is "no longer applicable" forever & ever like a fictional unpardonable sin, or "no longer applicable" as long as it is rejected & not being applied?

Here's one opinion in that regard:

"The verb "sin" in this verse is present tense (as are the verbs "remains" and "will consume"). Since present tense in Greek typically indicates an ongoing, continuous action, the passage can better be translated as: "For if we continuously sin deliberately, after having once received the knowledge of the truth, there continuously remains no further sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will continuously consume the adversaries." "

"So if one ceases to continuously sin by remaining apart from the Messiah, then Messiah's sacrifice for one's sins becomes operative again. It is now available for one since one has stopped the continuous sin of apostasy and can now be united with Christ. (Note the parallelism of the continuous sinning with the continuous remaining of no further sacrifice; when the former vanishes, the latter does as well—and the same is true of a person who continuously fails to repent of sin in general.) Thus if an apostate (to Judaism or whatever else) ceases to be an apostate, he can be saved. There is no unforgivable sin taught in this text."

Hebrews 10 and 6

Another comment from the same thread says:

"My understanding of Heb 10:26 is simple. There is no further sacrifice for sins. Jesus provided the only sacrifice, and if we don't want that sacrifice, well -- there's nothing else. There is no further sacrifice for sins. That's it; take it or leave it (but eventually you WILL decide to take it because the alternative simply makes no sense at all.) The fearful judgment (v.27) will consume the adversaries; it will not consume the beloved (the world for whom God gave His only begotten Son). The last adversary is death and that too will be consumed, leaving nothing but life!"

You might also find the following discussions re the context of Hebrews 10 of interest, including commentary by Jason Pratt:

Hebrews 10:28-29

Hebrews 6 and 10 - A Universalist Reaction?

Hebrews 10:26-27

Heb.10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. (NASB)
Heb.10:18 But where there [is] remission of these, [there is] no longer a sacrifice for sin. (DBY)
Heb.10:18 and where forgiveness of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (YLT)

Heb.10:26 there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, {RSV}
Heb.10:26 there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,{AV}

"There is no more offering for sin...there is left no place for the Levitical sacrifices under the new covenant." (Vincent's Word Studies)

Heb.10:12 But when this Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God.
Heb.7:27 Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people;
He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself.

"there is no more offering for sin; there may be other offerings, as of praise and thanksgiving, but none for sin; "there is no need", as the Syriac version; or there is not required, as the Arabic version; there is no need of the reiteration of Christ's sacrifice, nor will he be offered up any more, nor of the repetition of legal sacrifices, nor ought they to continue any longer. The Jews themselves say (w), that

"in the time to come (i.e. in the times of the Messiah) all offerings shall cease, but the sacrifice of praise.''

And one of their writers says (x), when

"the King Messiah, the son of David, shall reign, there will be no need of "an atonement", nor of deliverance, or prosperity, for all these things will be had;'' (Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible)

Hebrews 10:18 Commentaries: Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

The NIV Study Bible notes to Heb.10:18 say that "no additional sacrifice for sins is needed" {p.1870}.

Heb.10:26 For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains in reserve any other sacrifice for sins. {WEY}

"there remains no further sacrifice for sin": since Christ's work on the cross dying for the world's sins is the sacrifice that ends all sacrifices for sin, there is no other place to go but Christ for the forgiveness we all need, both at salvation as unbelievers and thereafter as members of His Body.

This is allegedly from Marvin Vincent's commentary in his New Testament Word Studies:

"The writer does not touch the question of the possibility of God’s renewing such to repentance. He merely puts his own hypothetical case, and says that, in the nature of such a case, the ordinary considerations and means which are applied to induce men to embrace the gospel no longer appeal to the subjects supposed. He contemplates nothing beyond such agencies, and asserts that these are powerless because the man has brought himself into a condition where they can no longer exert any power."

"Whether God will ever reclaim by ways of his own is a point which is not even touched. Destruction of the faculty of spiritual discernment is the natural outcome of deliberate and persistent sin, and the instrument of its punishment. Note, “renew unto repentance.” God promises pardon on penitence, but not penitence on sin."


Hebrews 10 and 6

"The assertion of Kurtz, that, if this remark were true, the author would be expressing “a dogma in its consequences truly subversive, and destructive of the whole Christian soteriology,” inasmuch as it would “imperatively follow therefrom, that even under the New Covenant only those who transgressed from ignorance and error could find forgiveness with God for Christ’s sake, while all who had been guilty of a conscious and intentional sin must beyond hope of deliverance fall victims to the judgment of everlasting damnation,” is a precipitate one, since the special limitation within which the expression ἑκουσίως ἁμαρτάνειν was used was naturally afforded to the reader, quite apart from the investigation already preceding at Hebrews 6:4 ff., even from our section itself." (Meyer's NT Commentary)

"there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins] Lit., “no sacrifice for sins is any longer left for them.” They have rejected the work of Christ, and it cannot be done for them over again. There is one atoning sacrifice and that they have repudiated. He does not say that they have exhausted the infinite mercy of God, nor can we justly assert that he held such a conclusion; he only says that they have, so long as they continue in such a state, put themselves out of God’s covenant, and that there are no other covenanted means of grace. For they have trampled under foot the offer of mercy in Christ and there is no salvation in any other (Acts 4:12)." (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges)

"There remaineth no more sacrifice for sins (οὐκέτι περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἀπολείπεται θυσία)"

"Of course not. For the Levitical sacrifices are abolished. It is Christ's sacrifice or none." (Vincent's Word Studies)

Hebrews 10:26 Commentaries: For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Those who had thrust away faith with a good conscience, and had made shipwreck of the faith, were given over to Satan that they may be trained not to blaspheme {1 Tim.1:19-20}. This seems to be an example of willfully sinning after knowing the truth, as in Hebrews 10, yet those who do such were still being trained or disciplined for their own good. The NIV Study Bible says such action was more remedial than punitive. Similarly is 1 Corinthians 5:4-5:

4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord

1 Tim.1:19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away, made shipwreck concerning the faith,
20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan, that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

Psa.119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.
68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.

In Hebrews chapter 2 we read of a "fair reward" for the disobedient:

2:1 Therefore we must more exceedingly be heeding what is being heard, lest at some time we may be drifting by. 2 For if the word spoken through messengers came to be confirmed, and every transgression and disobedience obtained a fair reward

Heb 10:26b no longer a sacrifice for sin (NAS). Compare the same Greek words at Mk.9:8 translated "any longer":

Mk.9:8 And suddenly, looking around, they saw no one any longer, but Jesus alone with themselves.

Did they not see any man "any longer" after that time except Jesus? Obviously they did see other men, so the words "any longer" does not support the contention re Heb.10:26 that God would "never" again allow some to be beneficiaries of the sacrifice of Christ.

26 For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins, 27 but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, about to be eating the hostile. (CLV) Hebrews 10 For the law, having a shadow of the impending good things, not the selfsame image of the matters, they, with their same sacrifices which they are offering year by year, are never able to perfect to a finality those approaching."

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejecters would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

You may have had some good points but as I have told you several times now, I will no longer give of my time to read and think upon such long and convoluted posts.

You are in fact wasting your time because when I scroll down and see how long your comment is.....I move on.

But anyway....Have a great day and stay safe.
 
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Major1

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""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. :idea: Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."




How about Augustine, the champion of endless tortures, even for infants?

Or Scripture, unlike the twisted excuse for it you posted above:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4

Aeon - Wikipedia

AIN -- AINIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

Your understanding or lack there of, and exegesis of the Scriptures is Absolutely amazing!
 
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Major1

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Quick, take your hand, (right or left), make sure you have 5 fingers on the hand.

1st finger = hades

2nd finger = geheena

3rd finger = tartaroo / tartarus

4th finger = shoel

Oops: you only need four fingers.

I despise being always wrong (incorrect), and now I have a finger left over. (lol)

All you did is post words which all describe the same thing.....
ETERNAL TORMENT IN THE FLAMES OF HELL.

Biblically speaking you forgot several others which are...
5. Lake of Fire

6. Second Death

7. Eternal Retribution

“Everlasting punishment” is used throughout the Bible to identify “duration without end.”

“Eternal” is described by the Hebrew word olam in the Old Testament and the Greek word anon in the New. Both words are linked to God; he is called the “eternal God.” Therefore hell lasts as long as the duration of God.

Eternity is beginningless and endless; it cannot be measured. It has no past, no future, no parts. Eternity is an infinite circle; we are born in the center of the circle and will die physically in the center of the circle, but remain there forever.Names for Hell - Different Names for Hell in the Bible

Bless you my friend and do stay safe in the dangerous times we live in.
 
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FineLinen

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All you did is post words which all describe the same thing.....
ETERNAL TORMENT IN THE FLAMES OF HELL.

Biblically speaking you forgot several others which are...
5. Lake of Fire

6. Second Death

7. Eternal Retribution

“Everlasting punishment” is used throughout the Bible to identify “duration without end.”

“Eternal” is described by the Hebrew word olam in the Old Testament and the Greek word anon in the New. Both words are linked to God; he is called the “eternal God.” Therefore hell lasts as long as the duration of God.

Eternity is beginningless and endless; it cannot be measured. It has no past, no future, no parts. Eternity is an infinite circle; we are born in the center of the circle and will die physically in the center of the circle, but remain there forever.Names for Hell - Different Names for Hell in the Bible

Bless you my friend and do stay safe in the dangerous times we live in.

Perhaps you can tell this wee peep why the translators of the KJV translate each distinct word as one?

If you think the Lake of all lakes is hell, please explain how thanantos and hell (s) are cast into it?

Time for your advanced degree big guy
 
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ClementofA

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Another example of "Don't read anything just post a big block of pre-written stuff that doesn't address anything in any specific post."


If that's what you think, i have to wonder if you even read my post. You've admitted before that you often don't read them, so that wouldn't surprise me. And often your replies indicate that you haven't read them, as is the case here again.

"BTW, is 'hell;' (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) not also 'under the heavens'".
Try actually reading my post this time.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
The writer who wrote your proof text, presumably Solomon, later in the same writing also said,
JPS Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is long ago perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.



Already addressed in my previous post:

Ecclesiastes 9:3
3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever [olam] in any thing that is done under the sun.

The dead have no more reward. And they do not have "any more a portion for ever [see vs. 3;14 above] in any thing that is done under the sun."

True as far as their bodies in the "grave" (v.10) are concerned. Until the "age" arrives when they will be raised from the dead:

Their love also, their hatred also, their envy also, hath already perished, and they have no more a portion TO THE AGE in all that hath been done under the sun. (Eccl.9:6, Young's Literal Translation).

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the ***GRAVE*** where you are going. (9:10)



Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Here the writer says there is no "work, device, knowledge nor wisdom in the grave." Ain't nothin' happenin' down there.

Right. Dead corpses in graves don't think or go to work.


The 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation is an irrefutable "literal version" which has no Christian bias of any kind.


Irrefutable, hahaha, lol. Like your Jewish sources?:

…According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud,

Dream on.

OTOH Robert Young who wrote the so-called literal version was self taught in Greek. p. 490
Young Robert: Lay theologian and orientalist; b. at Edinburgh Sept. 10, 1822; d. there Oct. 14, 1888. He received his education at private schools, 1827-38; served an apprenticeship to the printing business, 1838-45, using his spare time to study the oriental 1anguages became a communicant in 1842; joined the Free Church, and became a Sabbath-school teacher in 1843.
Philip Schaff: New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII: Trench - Zwingli - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Ever heard of self taught geniuses?

And what does "Greek" have to do with Ecclesiastes or the JPS version of it?
 
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ClementofA

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All you did is post words which all describe the same thing.....
ETERNAL TORMENT IN THE FLAMES OF HELL.

Biblically speaking you forgot several others which are...
5. Lake of Fire

6. Second Death

7. Eternal Retribution

“Everlasting punishment” is used throughout the Bible to identify “duration without end.”

“Eternal” is described by the Hebrew word olam in the Old Testament and the Greek word anon in the New. Both words are linked to God; he is called the “eternal God.” Therefore hell lasts as long as the duration of God.

Eternity is beginningless and endless; it cannot be measured. It has no past, no future, no parts. Eternity is an infinite circle; we are born in the center of the circle and will die physically in the center of the circle, but remain there forever.Names for Hell - Different Names for Hell in the Bible

Bless you my friend and do stay safe in the dangerous times we live in.


In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. αἰσχύνη (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

The context of Dan.12:2 suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW the passage affirms universalism?
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
Perhaps you can tell this wee peep why the translators of the KJV translate each distinct word as one?
If you think the Lake of all lakes is hell, please explain how thanantos and hell (s) are cast into it?
Time for your advanced degree big guy
There is an old maxim about interpreting the Bible, "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense." The converse of that is "If the plain sense does not make good sense it makes good sense to seek a figurative sense."
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
Ever heard of self taught geniuses?
And what does "Greek" have to do with Ecclesiastes or the JPS version of it?
Well this "self taught genius" is proven wrong by all credible, current scholarship. That excludes sources such as "Tentmaker."
Young was also self "educated" in Hebrew. He studied Oriental languages in his spare time.
Why Young? I replied to your quote from of Y[so=called]LT.
If you think you can refute either EOB or JPS you need to better bring some credible scholarship to the table.
The JPS was translated by native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars. The EOB was translated by native Greek speaking Greek scholars.
A different translation, version etc. does NOT refute either one. All a bare translation does is reflect the biases of the author.
By scholarship I mean e.g. what is documented in this definition from BDAG. Note the blue highlighted entries. Those are the 40+ sources the BDAG scholars consulted in determining the correct translations.
Unlike UR wannabe "scholars," credible scholars don't make up definitions to suit their assumptions/biases.
To refute BDAG a credible lettered scholar would have to review most of the cited sources and prove that BDAG is incorrect.
All I have ever seen heretofore is some anonymous person saying "Aionios never means eternal."
All of the highlighted sources are fully identified in the bibliography in the front of the print edition. In my earlier print edition the bibliography comprises 8 pages.

αἰώνιος (ία ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις;/[eternal home] Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 [everlasting kingdom](ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.- Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv [1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.





 
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“You are always with me, and everything I have is yours.”


“Of all the conceptions of the divine, of all the language Jesus could put on the lips of the God character in the story he tells, that’s what he has the Father say. “You are always with me, and everything I have is yours.” …Millions of people in our world were told that God so loved the world, that God sent his son to save the world, and that if they accept and believe in Jesus, then they’ll be able to have a relationship with God…

**But there’s more.**

Millions have been taught that if they don’t believe, if they don’t accept in the right way, that is, the way the person telling them the gospel does, and they were hit by a car and died later that same day, God will have no choice but to punish them forever in conscious torment in hell…

A loving heavenly father who will go to extraordinary lengths to have a relationship with them would, in the blink of an eye, become a cruel, mean, vicious tormentor who would ensure that they had no escape from an endless future of agony… if your God is loving one second and cruel the next, if your God will punish people for all eternity for sins committed in a few short years, no amount of clever marketing or compelling language or good music or great coffee will be able to disguise that one, true, glaring, untenable, acceptable, awful reality… sometimes the reason people have a problem accepting “the gospel” is that they sense that the God lurking behind Jesus isn’t safe, loving, or good. It doesn’t make sense it can’t be reconciled, and so they say no… God create, because the endless joy and peace and shared life at the heart of this God knows no other way. Jesus invites us into that relationship, the one at the center of the universe… so when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club.

The good news is better than that.” -Rob. Bell (Love Wins)
 
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Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.

Why didn't you post the translation of your favorite Bible version:

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox New Testament:

Rev.20:10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night, unto ages of ages.

More accurate, literal & honest translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?


Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

With all the preponderance of translations, why do you only use the Darby and Msg & YLT to substantiate your belief?????

Are you not aware that Greek-English Interlinears back me up? And multiple - literal - translations? And early church fathers writings? And various scholars?

Of course i prefer the literal translations over those you posted that have changed the Words of God, the Scriptures, to conform to their own theological biases, thereby misleading & deceiving the masses.

The facts simply don't support your endless tortures churchianity dogma created by "the church" of "holy crusades", burning to death those who dared to think otherwise at the stake, Inquisitions torturing those labelled "heretics", & much more bad fruit.

And here is a chart comparing examples of literal & idio[ma]tic renderings:

"Idiomatic or Idiotic?
ORIGINAL.......................................ENGLISHED.... STULTIFIED
[The Bible is the]............................book of books..book and book
[The Lord's Coming is the]....................day of days....day and day
shir eshirim..................................song of songs..song and song
qdsh equdshim.................................holy of holies.holy and holy
kurios kuridn.................................Lord of lords..Lord and lord
oasileus basileon..............................King of kings.King and king
aionos tdn aidnon............................ eon of eons....ever and ever (R.V.) throughout all ages, world without end. (A.V.)"

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+Eternal+Torment+or+Universal+Reconciliation.pdf



Does "foreverS AND everS" Make Sense to You?
Does "foreverS AND everS" Make Sense to You?

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4

AIN -- AINIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Could most modern translations be in error?

Most Bible translations (=opinions of Scripture) be in error? (Micah, traditions, Gospels) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?


*********************************************



Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
 
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ClementofA

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Well this "self taught genius" is proven wrong by all credible, current scholarship. That excludes sources such as "Tentmaker."

A difference of opinion is not a "proof" of anything. That's your first error.

Your second error is limiting the topic to "current" scholarship & thereby excluding Early Church Father universalist scholars.

Your third error, or unsupported assumption, is that "all credible, current scholarship" disagrees with YLT. You forget or rule out LSJ, Moulton/Milligan, Ramelli, Keizer, Robertson, Knoch, Hart, Rotherham, Weymouth, Wilson, and many others.

Young was also self "educated" in Hebrew. He studied Oriental languages in his spare time.
Why Young? I replied to your quote from of Y[so=called]LT.
If you think you can refute either EOB or JPS you need to better bring some credible scholarship to the table.
The JPS was translated by native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars. The EOB was translated by native Greek speaking Greek scholars.
A different translation, version etc. does NOT refute either one. All a bare translation does is reflect the biases of the author.

You say: "All a bare translation does is reflect the biases of the author."

Likewise all your sources merely "reflect the biases of the author."

Like as with the author of BDAG, the dead Danker:

By scholarship I mean e.g. what is documented in this definition from BDAG. Note the blue highlighted entries. Those are the 40+ sources the BDAG scholars consulted in determining the correct translations.

There was only one scholar who authored BDAG, not "scholars".

All those references given below in BDAG's entry on aionion merely reflect the opinion of one man, the aforementioned dead Danker. And in BDAG he offers nothing to support his opinions. He also leaves out all the following occurrences re aionion being finite. Why? Is that honest?

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

To refute BDAG a credible lettered scholar would have to review most of the cited sources and prove that BDAG is incorrect.

Why? See above.

And as far as universalism is concerned, it's not even a handful of aionion references that are at issue. Certainly not the entire list of sources BDAG gives. Which BTW are a small fraction of the entire ancient Koine Greek uses in existence of aionion that Danker cherry picked to suit his agenda & biases.

All I have ever seen heretofore is some anonymous person saying "Aionios never means eternal."

You've never proven it - ever - means "eternal" in all ancient Koine Greek, whether the NT, the OT, or secular writings. Can you show me even a single secular source listed by Danker that proves aionion means "eternal".

All of the highlighted sources are fully identified in the bibliography in the front of the print edition. In my earlier print edition the bibliography comprises 8 pages.
αἰώνιος (ία ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις;/[eternal home] Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 [everlasting kingdom](ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.- Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv [1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Here is what BDAG says re Col.1:20:

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

Co.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

This states the purpose of Love Omnipotent's - divine will - in sending His Son:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

The IVA ("that") is used in Jn.3:17 above. BDAG says “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows
according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the *divine will*…”
https://translate.academic.ru/ἵνα/el/xx/

The IVA also occurs in Phil.2:9-11:

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

What is the "world" in Jn.1:29; 3:17, 4:42 according to BDAG? According to BDAG by "world" in such verses is meant "humanity in general". Jesus Himself would be the only exception:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn.1:29)
They said to the woman, "We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world. (Jn.4:42)
For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

And BDAG again, re Rom.5:18, is quoted in this commentary:

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter
he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10
...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"
...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor;
(2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which
"many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins
...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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ClementofA said:
Your third error, or unsupported assumption, is that "all credible, current scholarship" disagrees with YLT. You forget or rule out LSJ, Moulton/Milligan, Ramelli, Keizer, Robertson, Knoch, Hart, Rotherham, Weymouth, Wilson, and many others.
Ramelli is NOT a Greek scholar.
Prof. Dr. Ilaria Ramelli, FRHistS, earned two MAs (Classics with Specialisation in Early Christianity and Philosophy with Specialisation in History), a PhD (Classics and Early Christianity), and a postdoctorate (Late Antiquity and Religion), as well as two Habilitations/ Abilitazioni to Full Professor (History of Philosophy and Ancient Greek Language and Literature). In the last nineteen years she has been Young Researcher in Late Antiquity, Assistant in Roman History, Professor of History of the Roman Near East, and Assistant in Ancient Philosophy, with focus on classical and Patristic philosophy and early Christianity (Catholic University, Milan, 2003–present), as well as Senior Research Fellow in Ancient and Patristic Philosophy (Durham University), Senior Research Fellow/Gastprofessorin in Religion (Erfurt University), Visiting Research Fellow at the University of Oxford, Corpus Christi (a senior fellowship), and Senior Visiting Professor of Greek Thought at Harvard Divinity School and Boston University, besides other senior fellowships and visiting professorships.
"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."...
Where is "here?" Logical fallacy. argument from silence. Faith is a requirement stated many times in the NT. That it may not be stated in a particular verse does not mean it has ceased to be a requirement.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


=======================================
Proverbs 29:7-8
7 The righteous taketh knowledge of the cause of the poor; the wicked understandeth not knowledge.
8 Scornful men set a city in a blaze; but wise men turn away wrath.


 
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ClementofA

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Ramelli is NOT a Greek scholar.

In whose opinion & definition of scholar? Yours? Yet here you are posting your aion/ios theories that are not supported by - anyone - scholar or amateur - in the past thousands of years. Are you a scholar or just a wannabe make believe scholar?​


Where is "here?" Logical fallacy. argument from silence. Faith is a requirement stated many times in the NT. That is may not be stated in a particular verse does not mean it has ceased to be a requirement.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


He's talking about Rom.5:18-19 & universalism therein. Of course universalism must occur via faith in Christ, so that is implied & has no need to be stated.
 
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Major1

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I believe you young laddy are in need of ephphatha!


I am sure that when you posted this you were thinking of someone else because I have no clue what you are trying to say.

However, First of all I am not a young lady.

2nd, I have a really good handle on the Kings English and there is really nothing I need opened by the Aramaic word.
 
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