THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

agapelove · Jun 10, 2020

BrotherD said:
How can all be accepted if they never repented?

My point is that one day all will.

BrotherD · Jun 10, 2020

FineLinen said:
Salvation is NOT in the will or wants of sinful man! It flows from the Will of all little wills the Author & Finisher.

The Spirit convicts us but we have to heed the conviction. God will never force us tp be saved but he will draw us in by his tender mercies. I am proof, but had i been persistent in rejecting his Spirit, i would be forever lost. This is why David asked the Lord not to take his Holy Spirit away from him.

FineLinen · Jun 10, 2020

BrotherD said:
The Spirit convicts us but we have to heed the conviction. God will never force us tp be saved but he will draw us in by his tender mercies. I am proof, but had i been persistent in rejecting his Spirit, i would be forever lost. This is why David asked the Lord not to take his Holy Spirit away from him.

The God of UN (limited) loses nothing! He is the Source, the Guide, the Goal of the all, (ta pavnte).

This is the focus of who prevails>>>>>

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

FineLinen · Jun 10, 2020

agapelove said:
The LORD has already saved all by what was accomplished on the cross ergo "It is finished." Some have accepted this, and others have not. But one day ALL will accept, and the LORD's patience and love will endure until that day.

BrotherD · Jun 10, 2020

agapelove said:
My point is that one day all will.

How do you understand these scriptures?

Psalm 37:20 KJV — But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 68:2 KJV — As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Ezekiel 18:4,21-23,32
[4]Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
[21]But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[22]All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
[23]Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
[32]For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

BrotherD · Jun 10, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
I'm sorry my friend, but you err greatly. The wicked do not get a second chance. There is only one destiny for them - salvation. And to be saved their wickedness needs to be destroyed, and that is achieved by purifying them of sin and death in the LoF (Rev 21:8, 21:24) and healing them with the leaves of the tree of life (Rev 22:2).

The new man in Christ emerges from the fire repentant, the wicked old man is forgotten.

How can the likes of Hitler be forgiven without repentance?

Jesus states when he comes that his reward is with him:

Revelation 22:11-12
[11]He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
[12]And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

That tells me everything is decided.

agapelove · Jun 10, 2020

BrotherD said:
How do you understand these scriptures?

Psalm 37:20 KJV — But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 68:2 KJV — As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

The "wicked" is not simply a population of people, it is the totality of sin in all of us. Love loves purity, meaning God will not stop until every bit of wickedness is destroyed in each of us, like separating the chaff from the wheat. It is not sinners who are enemies of the LORD, it is the sin inside them.

BrotherD said:
Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Lake of Fire is none other than the consuming fire of God, which Malachi likens to a refiner's fire or launderer's soap (Malachi 3:2). Universalists find it unlikely that the second death must mean total annihilation, when there are other scriptures that plainly tell us God always acts from a place of love, patience, mercy, healing, and redemption. In scripture the word death is not often used in an irreversible context (Luke 15:24, Mark 9:31, John 5:24, John 11:25, Revelation 1:18).

BrotherD said:
Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Yes, exactly-- love loves unto purity. The fire of God cannot be quenched until every last bit of sin and evil is destroyed in us, leaving neither root nor branch.

BrotherD said:
Ezekiel 18:4,21-23,32
[4]Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
[21]But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[22]All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
[23]Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
[32]For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

I see no contradiction with these verses and Universalism.

BrotherD · Jun 10, 2020

ClementofA said:
In the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar lost his soul when God made him act insanely like an animal for 7 years. God's destruction/ruining of the kings' soul meant the loss of his soul for the king.

Likewise the prodigal son "lost" (same Greek word as "destroyed" in Mt.10:28) his soul when he left his father for the world. Later when he "came back to his senses", he "found" his soul. His Father said his son was "dead" and "lost" (i.e. destroyed). Though he was obviously never annihilated.

How is it that God is "able" to destroy body & soul in Gehenna. Supposedly if angels cast people into it, that in itself could destroy their mortal bodies, due to the fires in Gehenna. But how would literal fire destroy a non corporeal soul? If Satan & demons are there to possess people, just casting them into Gehenna could result in them being spiritually & psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine, e.g. demon possession. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

Not only is God "able" to destroy [or ruin, lose] both body and soul...Jesus followers are told they must destroy their own souls to "find" them:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

Others can kill your body, but not your soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna. v.28

You can destroy your own soul. v.39...that is, ruin it.

By speaking of destroying your own soul, v.39 refers not to endless annihilation of your soul. So, in context, neither does verse 28 when God speaks of destroying a soul.

If you don't willingly destroy your soul (v.39) in this life, God will/is able to do it for you in the afterlife (v.28). But whether He does it for you or not, you will surely destroy your own soul by "finding" it (v.39) in this life. Since you destroy [but not annihilate] your own soul by finding it, why would God need to destroy it again, even though He is "able"? Though it is conceivable He could destroy it to a greater degree than it was destroyed before. Especially if people in Gehenna continued to rebel and harden themselves...cf Lk.11:26; Mt.12:45...7 times worse can occur. Scripture speaks of evil men shall becoming worse and worse, of the deep things of satan some have known, being possessed with a legion of demons, & few and many stripes (Lk.12:47-48).

What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

Even in this life one can be delivered to Satan for destruction that one may be saved:

1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Similarly the Scriptures speak of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostacized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

Definition of DESTROY

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Once a person is dead physically they can no more do a righteous or wicked act. If they died a righteous man they recieve a righteous man's reward. If they died a sinner they recieve the wages of sin and that is death.

BrotherD · Jun 10, 2020

agapelove said:
The "wicked" is not simply a population of people, it is the totality of sin in all of us. Love loves purity, meaning God will not stop until every bit of wickedness is destroyed in each of us, like separating the chaff from the wheat. It is not sinners who are enemies of the LORD, it is the sin inside them.

The Lake of Fire is none other than the consuming fire of God, which Malachi likens to a refiner's fire or launderer's soap (Malachi 3:2). Universalists find it unlikely that the second death must mean total annihilation, when there are other scriptures that plainly tell us God always acts from a place of love, patience, mercy, healing, and redemption. In scripture the word death is not often used in an irreversible context (Luke 15:24, Mark 9:31, John 5:24, John 11:25, Revelation 1:18).

Yes, exactly-- love loves unto purity. The fire of God cannot be quenched until every last bit of sin and evil is destroyed in us, leaving neither root nor branch.

I see no contradiction with these verses and Universalism.

Do you believe it is contrary to God to kill? Do you believe he would never do that?

This is what could possibly lead one to believe in universalism.

agapelove · Jun 10, 2020

BrotherD said:
Do you believe it is contrary to God to kill? Do you believe he would never do that?

This is what could possibly lead one to believe in universalism.

Even when God kills, it is for a redemptive purpose.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 10, 2020

ClementofA · Jun 10, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Strawman much? I provided no premise.

Nobody said you did. Do you see your name there? No.

"Premise 1: God desires all be saved. (e.g., 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires (thelo) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.")

Premise 2: God accomplishes all He desires. (e.g., Isaiah 55:11: "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire (thelo, from the Septuagint), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.")

Conclusion: All will be saved."

God is the "Saviour of all" (1 Tim.4:10). He is also the "Judge of all". Will He judge all, or just some?

A Judge judges. A Saviour saves. The Judge of all will judge all. The Saviour of all will save all.

Jesus takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29). What happens to those in the lake of fire after Jesus takes away their sin?

*****************************************************************

I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

ClementofA · Jun 10, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
However, I've never ever heard of a drowning person that wasn't shouting "save me, save me.. help help".

Maybe that's because the drowning people in the water are unconscious. Or already dead? Ever hear of dead or unconscious people shouting "help"? Did you notice in the pic all in the pool were all with face down under the water?

agapelove · Jun 10, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
View attachment 278691

#TheThingsUniversalistsNeverSaidEither

ClementofA · Jun 10, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
View attachment 278691

No need, if you don't mind going to torments for God knows how long.

FineLinen · Jun 10, 2020

agapelove said:
#TheThingsUniversalistsNeverSaidEither

Bingo!

Seven Large Myths

7 Myths About Universalism

ClementofA · Jun 10, 2020

ClementofA said:
No need, if you don't mind going to torments for God knows how long.

And we see here they are very much - alive - in the lake of fire, the second death, not annihilated out of existence as annihilationists would have us believe contrary to the Scriptures:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

Annihilationists, please repent & return to the truth of the Scriptures.

agapelove · Jun 10, 2020

FineLinen said:
Bingo!

Seven Large Myths

7 Myths About Universalism

Bless Robin Parry! One of the greatest lectures I've ever listened to:

LoveGodsWord · Jun 10, 2020

ClementofA said:
Nobody said you did. Do you see your name there? No.

"Premise 1: God desires all be saved. (e.g., 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires (thelo) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.")

Premise 2: God accomplishes all He desires. (e.g., Isaiah 55:11: "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire (thelo, from the Septuagint), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.")

Conclusion: All will be saved."

God is the "Saviour of all" (1 Tim.4:10). He is also the "Judge of all". Will He judge all, or just some?

A Judge judges. A Saviour saves. The Judge of all will judge all. The Saviour of all will save all.

Jesus takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29). What happens to those in the lake of fire after Jesus takes away their sin?

*****************************************************************

I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Strawman much? I provided no premise and yes you quoted my post to you. In the post I provided you, I simply quoted you the GREEK, PARALLEL BIBLE TRANSLATIONS OF THE GREEK AND CONCORDENCE MEANING OF THE GREEK in CONEXT to 1 TIMOTHY 2:4.

You on the other hand in your post went away from the context outside of 1 TIMOTHY 2:4 and the scripture in discussion and simply ignore the other scriptures that disagree with your premise that the unrentant wicked will receive eternal life after the second coming despite God's Word stating the opposite....

1 TIMOTHY 2:4 GREEK
ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.
"WHO ALL MEN DESIRES (θέλει) TO BE SAVED AND COME TO KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH TO COME"

A more detailed scripture response you have ignored is provided in post # 1930 linked

Now please show me from the scriptures where does it say that the unrepentant wicked after the second coming receive everlasting life when God's Word alone says...

1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.

Sorry dear friend, it seems God's Word disagrees with you. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. What your pormoting through Universalism is not biblical.

The rest of your post has already been proven elsewhere in this thread to be false empty claims not based on God's Word so no further comment needed here.

Hope this helps

LoveGodsWord · Jun 10, 2020

agapelove said:
#TheThingsUniversalistsNeverSaidEither

Well that one is not true. UNIVERSALSIM teaches that the unrepentant wicked receives eternal life after the second coming and all the unrepentnant wicked will be saved. Do you not believe this now?

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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