Doomed before birth

JohnB445 said:

This concept has been uneasy, for many people.

What do you think scripture seems to support, and which verses?

Must a Christian know if one is Predestined or Destined? Or can one hold a view of uncertainty?

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You get to choose if you are Predestined or not. Oh yes, you do, too.

Aussie Pete said:

Predestined means predestined. I don't know how you can differentiate between Jew and Gentile. Ephesians 1:5 says "us". Paul was talking to the Ephesians. The Jews there rejected Paul and the gospel. Not much predestination in that crowd.

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Huh? Are you saying the Jews only are predestined, the rest of us are who knows?

The elect are predestined. All the elect, Jew or Gentile, are predestined to salvation and none others.

JIMINZ said:

Wasn't he just recounting a practice of the Jews which he witnessed, being a devout Jew before his conversion?

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This is too much yo debate on my phone.

I’ll start a new thread on the apocrypha/canon on Friday.

Have a good evening.

Mark Quayle said:

The elect are predestined. All the elect, Jew or Gentile, are predestined to salvation and none others.

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Now you know that the use of Scripture is required when making such a statement.

JohnB445 said:

This concept has been uneasy, for many people.

What do you think scripture seems to support, and which verses?

Must a Christian know if one is Predestined or Destined? Or can one hold a view of uncertainty?

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I wasn't Predestined to hell before I got Saved.
I wasn't Predestined to Salvation either.
My Salvation came about solely by the Grace of God, no reason other than He showed Mercy, to whom He chose to show Mercy.

Everyone is uncertain before Salvation because of sin.
After Salvation it is irrelevant to the issue of Salvation because, it says.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Scripture is not qualified by any mention of being Predestined.

Rev. 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Again, there isn't any qualification made concerning Predestination.
Therefore I have to believe, the "Whosoever" people being spoken of in this verse were never Predestined.

Of what use is the Grace of God, when someone has been Predestined to Salvation?

Eph. 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

If it's by Gods' Grace, Predestination has no purpose.

Mark Quayle said:

Huh? Are you saying the Jews only are predestined, the rest of us are who knows?

The elect are predestined. All the elect, Jew or Gentile, are predestined to salvation and none others.

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I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion. I was responding to a claim that only Jews were predestined. I disagree with that point of view entirely.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Thistle

"who will love him"

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Note to your great benefit I didn't place those four words in quotes. I put "love him" in quotes because that is a quote.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Certainly "who will love him" not in this text.

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Does that clear up the misunderstanding?

also you seem to use the noun form of "foreknown". The word here is a verb form it is something God does, not some "thing" he knows.

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You cite "foreknew" so let's use your term. When you say knowing is doing in this context, I simply can't agree with that.

As you can see in the text all the doing is done by God himself and not us.

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No agapōsin, the word translated "love," is in the active voice. Given there is only one God, "those who love God," would be us.

Not sure how you came to your understanding of what a Calvinist believes, but for your consideration on Eph 2:8.

By Grace Alone Through Faith Alone

All of Grace by C. H. Spurgeon

In Him,

Bill

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Luther did add the word "alone" when he translated Romans 3:28, but I do disagree with his basic point. What Paul means in Ephesians 2:8-9 is that we are saved by the grace system, which is not assisted by the works system.

Faithfully in Christ,

BBAS 64 said:

..Like the Shepard leading the lamb to water,...

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Ok, I can accept that. And some “lambs” want to follow the good shepherd and some don’t. I think there is the question, does person accept it or not.

1213 said:

What do you think it means when God draws one? I don’t believe it means God forces people to follow Him.

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Why would you equate the Drawing of God unto Salvation, as though it's a bad thing to be Blessed by God.

Let me put it this way, if it bothers you soooooo much that God drew you unto Himself, without any help or permission from you and through His Grace gave to you the unmerited gift of Eternal Life, why don't you walk away from it ,if it is that disdainful to you.

1213 said:

Ok, I can accept that. And some “lambs” want to follow the good shepherd and some don’t. I think there is the question, does person accept it or not.

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Good day, 1213

I think there is some misunderstanding about the nature of lambs and the dependency (total) the lamb has on it's Shepard.

Lambs always follow their Shepard that is what lambs do that is their nature. Now there are times when a Lamb gets spooked and runs off, but it is the sole responsibility of the Shepard to go and get his lamb.

So in the case of water, which I spoke about earlier that sheep by nature are terrified of water, and indeed a lamb could be overtaken by that fear. It is still the Shepard responsibility to care and oversee the well being on the Lamb. As the Shepard he knows that understands and accepts that responsibility ( even to lay down his own life for his sheep).

So the Lamb is spooked and fearful what is the Shepard to do... if he is a good Shepard he calls his sheep the sheep hears and becomes uncertain do to the fear within. The Shepard readies the staff (hook) and uses it as comfort to the lamb and brings assurance to the lamb that the Shepard is in control via the Staff while calling (voice) and directing (effectively moving) the lamb back to the fold the Shepard ensures the lamb of it's own well being and safety in a fearful moment.

The good Shepard never fails in his duties and responsibilities to His lambs.

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

Good day, 1213

I think there is some misunderstanding about the nature of lambs and the dependency (total) the lamb has on it's Shepard.

Lambs always follow their Shepard ...

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Good day, BBAS 64

I think this is not very important matter, but, I just want to remind that not all are his lambs.

But you don't believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:26-27

1213 said:

Good day, BBAS 64

I think this is not very important matter, but, I just want to remind that not all are his lambs.

But you don't believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:26-27

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Good Day,

The Shepard will only Shepard his own... and he calls,leads, and keeps his own. They are His and he knows his responsibility to them. If they are not his they will not follow, and he does not own them any thing he does not know them they are not his.

You may want to read Eze 34.

In Him,

Bill