Matthew 24:31 is about the rapture

keras said:

The 70th 'week', the final seven years will commence when the Leader of the soon to be formed One World Govt, signs a treaty of peace with the leaders of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in all of the holy Land. Daniel 9:27

It will be the Sixth seal event that allows for the OWG and Beulah to happen.
The Seventh Seal tells us there will be a time gap of about 15-20 years earth time, from then until the Return. A half hour in heaven, 1/48th of a day = 1/48th of 1000 years on earth.

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That is taking some serious liberty with a symbolic verse that I don't think was meant to be taken literally that every day is like 1000 years. I think that verse was just to point out that for God, our measurements of time are meaningless.
So what you're saying is you don't view the trumpets and vials, despite giving very similar plagues, are happening simultaneously and that there is no restart of the timeline in Revelation 12... which is a bit difficult because Revelation 12 symbollically talks about the first coming of Jesus.
Because I see the Antichrist's reign taking place pretty clearly in the 5th seal but it can be deduced that it possibly goes all the way back to the 1st seal.
When the 5th seal is released you have the souls of martyred Christians appearing in heaven. That's the period of GREAT Tribulation, where the antichrist is given power to make war against the saints and prevail against them.
If that's the case also, then God is duplicating plagues, turning the seas to blood with 1 trumpet, then later after some time turning them to blood again after the vial. Wouldn't they already be blood after the trumpet?

Jamdoc said:

That is taking some serious liberty with a symbolic verse that I don't think was meant to be taken literally that every day is like 1000 years. I think that verse was just to point out that for God, our measurements of time are meaningless.

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Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 are far from meaningless. They inform us how we can figure out some prophesies like Hosea 6:2 and Luke 13:32, where 'days' are mentioned, that are clearly not 24 hour days at all.

Jamdoc said:

So what you're saying is you don't view the trumpets and vials, despite giving very similar plagues, are happening simultaneously

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Similar in some aspects, but far from being the same. All the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls will happen separately and in their given sequence. Why not?

Jamdoc said:

Revelation 12 symbollically talks about the first coming of Jesus.

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I disagree, Revelation 12:6-17 is about end time events. You think literal, plainly stated things which can happen, are symbolic because you can't see Gods Plan in it all.

Jamdoc said:

When the 5th seal is released you have the souls of martyred Christians appearing in heaven. That's the period of GREAT Tribulation, where the antichrist is given power to make war against the saints and prevail against them.

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The 5th Seal was opened by Jesus when He ascended, Proved by all the martyrs since Stephen. Satan surely has the power now to murder the saints!
During the GT, the final 3 1/2 years of this age, Satan will rule the world, so there will be many more martyrs then. But the faithful Christians will go to a place of safety on earth for that time. Revelation 12:14
Also; those martyrs of the GT, will be resurrected when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4

Jamdoc said:

If that's the case also, then God is duplicating plagues, turning the seas to blood with 1 trumpet, then later after some time turning them to blood again after the vial. Wouldn't they already be blood after the trumpet?

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Obviously; those things are not permanent.
And they are directed at those who have taken the mark of the beast. Revelation 16:2

keras said:

Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 are far from meaningless. They inform us how we can figure out some prophesies like Hosea 6:2 and Luke 13:32, where 'days' are mentioned, that are clearly not 24 hour days at all.

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I don't think we're intended to calculate time by a formula of 1 God day = 1000 earth years.
Sometimes measures of time are simply used as expressions. The "Day of the Lord" is neither 24 hours or 1000 years, it's an expression that this is the time when the Lord is taking out His wrath on the earth.

If they give a specific time, like time, times, and half a time, okay, that's 3.5 years by the Hebrew Calendar (it'll be less by our reckoning). Or if they say 1000 years, I take that to mean the Millennial Kingdom is 1000 earth years long.
There's a difference between saying "the hour is at hand" is a figure of speech meaning something is going to happen right now, or very soon, not necessarily 60 minutes.
But when they describe Babylon falling in "one hour" THAT I take to be a literal 60 minute period of time, because it specifies ONE hour, rather than just an expression like "the hour" or "the day"

You can't always take everything exactly literal not when there's obvious turns of phrase or expressions used to indicate urgency. After all, we've been in the "last days" for about 2000 years.

Similar in some aspects, but far from being the same. All the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls will happen separately and in their given sequence. Why not?

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Seems very redundant. The seals are obviously different from the trumpets and vials, the 7th seal is handing out the trumpets to the angels afterall. But the trumpets seem to focus on the environment while the vials seem to focus more on the effects on people, seems like 2 viewpoints more than 2 events for many of them. I can definitely be wrong about them being simultaneous and it does hinge on my interpretation of Revelation 12:5 referring to Jesus so to me it is a rewind back to the past, rather than continuing to tell about future events, because He is destined to rule with a rod of iron, and was caught up to Heaven. Which both seem to illustrate Jesus to me.

I definitely don't believe any of the seals have been released yet, certainly not by the time of the day of Pentecost, as that would be a past event not a future event for John to witness. Revelation was written much later than Acts as far as I know.

Jamdoc said:

You can't always take everything exactly literal not when there's obvious turns of phrase or expressions used to indicate urgency. After all, we've been in the "last days" for about 2000 years.

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Exactly; the 2000 years that Jesus and Hosea 6:2 prophesied!
Here is an article I wrote about how prophecy is deliberately made hard to understand:
1 Corinthians 14:22b...Prophecy is not for unbelievers, but for believers
The Bible has plenty of information on how the Lord’s plans have been fulfilled in the past and what we can expect in our future. Also, according to His plan, very few will truly understand the full scope and implications of future events. Daniel 12:10
Some reasons for this are:

1/ Those who may profess to be Christian, but in their hearts are not:

1 John 4:4-6 Believers in Christ, you belong in God’s family and you can discern false prophets because the God who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. The world listens to the teachings of worldly people, but we belong to God and whoever knows God pays heed to the truth, those who are not His people cannot comprehend the prophetic message.

Isaiah 29:13-14 The Lord says: Because this people worship Me with empty words and pay Me lip service, while their hearts are far from Me and their religion is but human precepts, learnt by rote; therefore I shall shock them and shock again and their wisdom and discernment will be lost. Matthew 7:21-23

2/ Belief in false teaching, leading to a fixed mindset of wrong ideas: Ezekiel 14:3-5

The prime example of a false teaching is the pre-tribulation rapture. This idea denies many Scriptures that say; all will be tested, 1 Peter 4:12, Luke 21:35. This leads to a careless attitude toward prophecy. If you believe you are good enough and sufficiently holy to be taken directly to heaven, then you will be judged for judging yourself. Humility and trust in the Lord’s saving grace, Isaiah 30:15, must be our attitude, not the pretentious belief of a removal from the earth to avoid any perceived difficulties. In John 17:15 Jesus asks for protection, not removal and in John 3:13 No one will go to heaven, only He who came from it.

2 Peter 2:1-3 In the past, there were false prophets among the people, just as now you will have false teachers. They will promote their theories and speculations, twisting Scripture to suit their fanciful notions. Many will follow their sheer fabrications and credulous people will make them rich and famous, but judgement waits for them: a long prepared destruction will fall upon their heads.

Jeremiah 23:16-17 The Lord says: Do not listen to your false prophets, who give you false hope and voice their own fancies, it is not the Lord’s Words they speak. They say: ‘prosperity will be yours’ and to all who follow their devious beliefs: ‘No harm will befall you’.

Isaiah 29:9-12 The Lord says: I will place My spirit of misunderstanding upon all those who are ‘drunk, but not with wine’ [that is: who allow themselves to be fooled by false teachings], so it becomes impossible for them to see the truth. Isaiah 8:16

3/ Preterism and non-literal interpretation:

To think that all prophecies have been fulfilled or they are just metaphors and allegories, is a serious error that leaves those who believe that way, without proper knowledge or understanding about the end times.

2 Peter 1:19 We confirm the message of the prophets, to which you will do well to study; it will enlighten your minds, like a lamp shining into a dark place.

4/ Denial or straight out refusal to try to comprehend the prophesies:

Ezekiel 33:31-33 My people will listen to the prophets, but they will not take any action. Fine Words, they will say but with insincerity, for their hearts are set on selfish gain. When disaster strikes, as it will, then they will know the truth of prophecy.

Isaiah 48:3-6 Long ago, I announced what will happen, but because of your stubbornness and your refusal to accept instruction, you think everything can be explained by chance or by natural occurrence. You read the Word, consider it well and admit the truth of it.

Hosea 9:7 The Day of punishment and vengeance comes and all Israel [Judah and Israel, still in dispersion] will know it. Their prophets are fools and their wise leaders are like madmen, because they are all deep in enmity with God and He will remember their guilt.

Revelation 22:7b…Happy is the person who takes to heart the Words of prophecy in this Book.
Reference: Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged and paraphrased.
logostelos.info

and yet you're preterist thinking the seals were released when Christ was resurrected and ascended to heaven, before Revelation was even written.

Jamdoc said:

and yet you're preterist thinking the seals were released when Christ was resurrected and ascended to heaven, before Revelation was even written.

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I am not a preterist if the historical record proves that prophesied things have happened.
The four horsemen were sent out in ancient times, Zechariah 1:8-11 & 6:1-8, as is evident by all the wars, famines and plagues we have experienced and increasing in intensity over the last 200 years.
Certainly the Fifth Seal is open, as all the martyrs since Stephen have their souls kept under the Altar in heaven.
There is no doubt that the Sixth Seal will happen soon, as 2 Peter 3:1-7 tells us.
Whether you like it or not, it will come suddenly and unexpectedly, a dramatic world changer!

keras said:

I am not a preterist if the historical record proves that prophesied things have happened.
The four horsemen were sent out in ancient times, Zechariah 1:8-11 & 6:1-8, as is evident by all the wars, famines and plagues we have experienced and increasing in intensity over the last 200 years.
Certainly the Fifth Seal is open, as all the martyrs since Stephen have their souls kept under the Altar in heaven.
There is no doubt that the Sixth Seal will happen soon, as 2 Peter 3:1-7 tells us.
Whether you like it or not, it will come suddenly and unexpectedly, a dramatic world changer!

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Revelation 4:1
all the seals John witnessed in heaven were future events.
Not past events.
Stephen was killed well before John was writing Revelation.

Jamdoc said:

Revelation 4:1
all the seals John witnessed in heaven were future events.
Not past events.
Stephen was killed well before John was writing Revelation.

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It is very difficult to converse with you, as you just don't seem to get what I am talking about.

John saw visions of what had and will happen. Your thinking the first Five Seals remain to be opened, is a direct contradiction of what we are told about the souls of the martyrs. They await the completion of their number, when Jesus Returns.

keras said:

It is very difficult to converse with you, as you just don't seem to get what I am talking about.

John saw visions of what had and will happen. Your thinking the first Five Seals remain to be opened, is a direct contradiction of what we are told about the souls of the martyrs. They await the completion of their number, when Jesus Returns.

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You don't seem to get scripture.
Revelation 4:1

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

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Jamdoc said:

You don't seem to get scripture.
Revelation 4:1

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So to fit your beliefs, you ignore the terrible wars, the shocking famines, the devastating plagues and the disastrous economic failures, plus all the martyrs murdered- in this age?
Is there worse to come according to you? Remember, the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls are not worldwide events, they are specifically aimed toward those who refuse God. Revelation 9:20-21 & 16:11

I see Revelation 4:1 and all of Revelation; as a panorama; a overall view of history since Jesus departed until He Returns and then Eternity. We are now on the edge of the final events of this Church age.
They will commence with the Sixth Seal world changer, as Jesus inferred when He stopped reading Isaiah 61:1-2, before; and the Day of vengeance of our God. Matthew 3:12, Romans 1:18, Hebrews 10:27

keras said:

So to fit your beliefs, you ignore the terrible wars, the shocking famines, the devastating plagues and the disastrous economic failures, plus all the martyrs murdered- in this age?
Is there worse to come according to you? Remember, the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls are not worldwide events, they are specifically aimed toward those who refuse God. Revelation 9:20-21 & 16:11

I see Revelation 4:1 and all of Revelation; as a panorama; a overall view of history since Jesus departed until He Returns and then Eternity. We are now on the edge of the final events of this Church age.
They will commence with the Sixth Seal world changer, as Jesus inferred when He stopped reading Isaiah 61:1-2, before; and the Day of vengeance of our God. Matthew 3:12, Romans 1:18, Hebrews 10:27

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There's been terrible wars, devastating plagues and disastrous economic failures since well before Christ was born in a manger.
But it all pales in comparison of what is coming when we actually start seeing the seals get released. The black death and early 20th century spanish flu pandemic will seem small time to what will hit us when the 4th seal is released, we're talking if it started happening tomorrow about 2 billion people dying between disease, war, and famine, and animal attacks.
all the martyrs and persecution we've suffered are absolutely nothing compared to the campaign to kill all Christians that will happen under the Antichrist's rule after the 5th seal is released.
Even the Holocaust in WWII will be small time compared to the Great Tribulation, it won't be 6 million it'll be 10's of millions maybe even hundreds of millions of Christians who refuse to take the mark and worship the Antichrist and are killed for it or starve to death from being unable to buy or sell.
These are great tribulation like the world has NEVER seen before, and we've seen the Nazis round up and kill millions of jews in death factories.
and that's still nothing on the level that will happen to Christians in the last days.

Not really a post I'd say was optimistic because those are terrible things to come but okay lol

Jamdoc said:

Not really a post I'd say was optimistic because those are terrible things to come but okay lol

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I gave you an 'optimistic', as a joke; I was too busy then to reply properly.
What I meant by it was the opposite, as you think worse wars, famines and plagues are yet to come. Not what the Bible prophets say for the last few years of this age.
Ezekiel 7:14 says there will be no war when the enemies go to attack Israel. The Lord will destroy them all. Psalms 7:12-16, Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Romans 1:18, +

Then many prophesies tell how the world will recover and we Christians will live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy land. There will be a short time of difficulty just before Jesus Returns, then the Millennium of great blessings for His people.

keras said:

I gave you an 'optimistic', as a joke; I was too busy then to reply properly.
What I meant by it was the opposite, as you think worse wars, famines and plagues are yet to come. Not what the Bible prophets say for the last few years of this age.
Ezekiel 7:14 says there will be no war when the enemies go to attack Israel. The Lord will destroy them all. Psalms 7:12-16, Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Romans 1:18, +

Then many prophesies tell how the world will recover and we Christians will live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy land. There will be a short time of difficulty just before Jesus Returns, then the Millennium of great blessings for His people.

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Uh, yeah, the Millennium will be that time of good things and peace. But we're not talking about the Millennium, we're talking about "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Matthew 24:21
Jesus told us it'd get much worse before it got better, and you're looking at the worst already behind us somehow. I think the worst is coming in the future. Maybe in our lifetimes, maybe not, but the technology and world stage is certainly moving towards that direction. a 1 world government is more possible now than it was 100 years ago, so is an economy doesn't have cash for buying and selling, the Israelites were scattered, now they're gathering again. We have the ability to rain fire from the sky and destroy entire nations in the span of a single hour. It wouldn't be a precedent for God to use man to carry out His will.
So we're moving in that direction. Who knows when we'll actually reach that point in time?

Jamdoc said:

We have the ability to rain fire from the sky and destroy entire nations in the span of a single hour. It wouldn't be a precedent for God to use man to carry out His will.
So we're moving in that direction. Who knows when we'll actually reach that point in time?

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But this time the Lord will do it Himself, as:
Psalms 11:4-6 The Lord is in His holy Temple, His Throne in heaven. He searches mankind....and He hates all who love violence. He will rain fiery coals and brimstone upon the wicked. fiery winds will be their lot.
Ezekiel 7:13 The trumpet [of war] has sounded and all are ready, but no one goes to battle, as their actions have called forth My wrath.
Many other prophesies tell us how the Lord will arise and wipe out the attackers of Israel. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12 The Jewish State of israel will be gone as well. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 12:14, Isaiah 2:1-14, Romans 9:27

We do not the time; the hour or the day, but we can know the season. The indications are clear, Iran and her proxies are armed and ready, the Trump Peace Plan, will be another catalyst.
Wait for the Day....I shall pour out My burning anger onto the whole earth..... Zephaniah 3:8

keras said:

But this time the Lord will do it Himself, as:
Psalms 11:4-6 The Lord is in His holy Temple, His Throne in heaven. He searches mankind....and He hates all who love violence. He will rain fiery coals and brimstone upon the wicked. fiery winds will be their lot.
Ezekiel 7:13 The trumpet [of war] has sounded and all are ready, but no one goes to battle, as their actions have called forth My wrath.
Many other prophesies tell us how the Lord will arise and wipe out the attackers of Israel. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12 The Jewish State of israel will be gone as well. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 12:14, Isaiah 2:1-14, Romans 9:27

We do not the time; the hour or the day, but we can know the season. The indications are clear, Iran and her proxies are armed and ready, the Trump Peace Plan, will be another catalyst.
Wait for the Day....I shall pour out My burning anger onto the whole earth..... Zephaniah 3:8

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I was referring to the destruction of babylon. At Armageddon it's going to be Jesus killing with a "sword" that comes from his mouth.. so in other words just his words will kill.

But there's a lot of descriptions that John writes in Revelation that makes me think there's human technology involved but a 1st Century man trying to describe it in terms he himself understands. How else would a 1st century man witnessing a nuclear war describe the destruction of an entire landmass in an hour by nukes other than fire from the heavens (and remember the heavens isn't always God's throne sometimes it's referring to the sky or space). He describes the 200 million man Chinese army as horsemen, and then describes them having fire coming from their mouths, like.. tanks, and rocket artillery.
Not saying that's for sure the way it'd happen but I think it is a possible way that it'd be manifested.

Jamdoc said:

I was referring to the destruction of babylon. At Armageddon it's going to be Jesus killing with a "sword" that comes from his mouth.. so in other words just his words will kill.

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So was I.
The destruction of "Babylon', the ungodly nations, Revelation 18 and also Revelation 14:14-20, all pertain to the Sixth Seal event; the great reset of civilization to a similar extent as Noah's Flood. But many more people will survive this time.
2 Peter 3:1-7 plainly tells us about this forthcoming disaster to the world.
You seem to scoff about it?

Matthew 24:29-31 refers to different celestial signs that will happen ; immediately after the tribulation of those days.... AFTER the Sixth Seal, and all the GT punishments.

keras said:

So was I.
The destruction of "Babylon', the ungodly nations, Revelation 18 and also Revelation 14:14-20, all pertain to the Sixth Seal event; the great reset of civilization to a similar extent as Noah's Flood. But many more people will survive this time.
2 Peter 3:1-7 plainly tells us about this forthcoming disaster to the world.
You seem to scoff about it?

Matthew 24:29-31 refers to different celestial signs that will happen ; immediately after the tribulation of those days.... AFTER the Sixth Seal, and all the GT punishments.

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You did what another chap did, compress all the judgements of God into a singular hour, or turn the book into being out of order.
The seals come BEFORE the Trumpets or Vials, and the 5th Trumpet summons locusts with a sting that causes pain for 5 MONTHS.
So no it's not the 6th seal event, it's something that happens AFTER the 6th seal, and there are several events.
and something hit me about why I combine the trumpets and vials into being parallels or at least happening at the same time...

The 7th Trumpet in Revelations 11 is an act of finality, it delivers all the kingdoms of the world as the kingdoms of our Lord. Like, the wrath is done at that point. But then Revelation 12, 13, etc goes into events that seem similar to what happened prior, like a repeat. How is the 7th angel on the 7th trumpet calling finality and delivering the Kingdoms of the World to Jesus if this is when the reign of the antichrist starts for you? Revelation 11 is the end of it, and Revelation 18 and 19 are the end of it. Babylon is destroyed in Revelation 18. In 1 hour, AFTER the trumpets and vials, and the world's merchants mourn because they were a great consumer nation that bought their goods (IE the USA if it were to happen soon). The battle of Armageddon and Jesus returning with His saints on horses in Revelation 19.

Jamdoc said:

and yet you're preterist thinking the seals were released when Christ was resurrected and ascended to heaven, before Revelation was even written.

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Believing some of the seals are history now is certainly not a preterist outlook; it is scripture, plain and simple.

Did you ever notice that in Rev. 1 John was still alive, and in Rev. 21, it is a thousand plus years into our future? Therefore SOMEWHERE in between, is where we are NOW. It is not really that difficult to figure out where: start backwards and look for events that have not happened, working your way from chapter 16 to chapter 1. For example, had there ever been an angel army 200 million strong that will kill 1/3 of earth's population in a few months time or less? Not a chance! So we are before trumpet 6. It is still future.
Has them ever been a nuclear exchange? Not yet, so we are before trumpet 3.

Has the 70th week began? Not a chance, so we are before the 7th seal. (we will know very soon after the 7th seal because the trumpet judgments will begin. We aren't there yet.

Has the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord come yet? Have we ever seen a worldwide earthquake, followed by a total eclipse of the moon (blood red moon) , then a total eclipse of the sun (looking as black as sackcloth) (not necessarily in that order)? No, fo sure not: we can be sure the Day of the Lord is not yet. So back up to the 5th seal: the martyrs of the church age. Are there still martyrs being added to those already martyred? Yes, probably almost every day somewhere in the world.

Therefore, NO NEED to back up any further. The church is now waiting on that final church age martyr. GOD is waiting for it.

OR:

Start with chapter 5: has Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down? Yes, long ago.
Has seal 1 been opened? Has the church been sent out with the gospel to the nations? Certainly - long ago.

Has there been war after war and rumors of wars in the 1/4 of the earth centered in Jerusalem? that is where TWO word wars started. So seal 2 has been opened.

Has there been famines in the 1/4 of the earth centered in Jerusalem? Certainly there has, over and over. So the 3rd seal has been opened.

Has there been pestilence in the 1/4 of the earth centered in Jerusalem? Yes, RIGHT NOW. So the 4th seal is opened.

ARE there people being killed because they love Jesus today? Yes. So the 5th seal is opened.

Has the Day of the Lord started? No.

Therefore the church has been at the 5th seal since the beginning - when Stephen was martyred.

iamlamad said:

Believing some of the seals are history now is certainly not a preterist outlook; it is scripture, plain and simple.

Did you ever notice that in Rev. 1 John was still alive, and in Rev. 21, it is a thousand plus years into our future? Therefore SOMEWHERE in between, is where we are NOW. It is not really that difficult to figure out where: start backwards and look for events that have not happened, working your way from chapter 16 to chapter 1. For example, had there ever been an angel army 200 million strong that will kill 1/3 of earth's population in a few months time or less? Not a chance! So we are before trumpet 6. It is still future.
Has them ever been a nuclear exchange? Not yet, so we are before trumpet 3.

Has the 70th week began? Not a chance, so we are before the 7th seal. (we will know very soon after the 7th seal because the trumpet judgments will begin. We aren't there yet.

Has the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord come yet? Have we ever seen a worldwide earthquake, followed by a total eclipse of the moon (blood red moon) , then a total eclipse of the sun (looking as black as sackcloth) (not necessarily in that order)? No, fo sure not: we can be sure the Day of the Lord is not yet. So back up to the 5th seal: the martyrs of the church age. Are there still martyrs being added to those already martyred? Yes, probably almost every day somewhere in the world.

Therefore, NO NEED to back up any further. The church is now waiting on that final church age martyr. GOD is waiting for it.

OR:

Start with chapter 5: has Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down? Yes, long ago.
Has seal 1 been opened? Has the church been sent out with the gospel to the nations? Certainly - long ago.

Has there been war after war and rumors of wars in the 1/4 of the earth centered in Jerusalem? that is where TWO word wars started. So seal 2 has been opened.

Has there been famines in the 1/4 of the earth centered in Jerusalem? Certainly there has, over and over. So the 3rd seal has been opened.

Has there been pestilence in the 1/4 of the earth centered in Jerusalem? Yes, RIGHT NOW. So the 4th seal is opened.

ARE there people being killed because they love Jesus today? Yes. So the 5th seal is opened.

Has the Day of the Lord started? No.

Therefore the church has been at the 5th seal since the beginning - when Stephen was martyred.

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I don't think any of the seals have been opened yet.