Did fallen angels break our code?

d taylor said:

Yes Fallen angels married human women and produced the half angel half human, .

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You have to admit - if that were an actual quote of Genesis 6 - this entire thread would be very different

ChetSinger said:

It's part of ancient Jewish lore, repeated by various church fathers, that the nephilim who died in the flood were denied the grave because of their mixed parentage. Instead, they were forced to wander the earth, always hungry and thirsty, until the final judgment.

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So then "lore" it is.

d taylor said:

I am not sure that they did survive physically.

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That would be the only way - and clearly Noah was Nephilim because they exist before the flood and afterwards and the only connection between the two is Noah.

mmksparbud said:

No, God is clear as to why He destroyed the world and it was
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

They were evil, violent--nothing about half breeds! Nephilim were the offspring of men of God who married women who did not follow God. There were giants in those days--before and after---means just that---There were giants in those days! In other words--- Adam and Eve were not 5-6 feet tall!
It is also ho9w it was interpreted by the Jews as the Jewish targums from even right after the Babylonian exile prove. Angel half breeds are a ridiculous fantasy brought by the book of Enoch which is not even in the Jewish Canon. 450 feet giants makes them 3 times taller the statue of Liberty--no such thing and no way could any woman carry a baby that a creature that size would require! It is not biblical, does not make any sense nor does it follow the character of God.

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The preceding verses in which the Nephilim are mentioned are clearly tied with the wickedness of man that was on the earth and their wickedness must have been so dark so as to motivate the wicked angels to initiate such interactions that resulted in this evil and twisted offspring that we know as the Nephilim or giants. As for the height of Adam and Eve, how do you know they weren't between five and six feet tall? Have you ever seen them? Have their remains been found? Personally, I do not believe that they were any taller or shorter than any other human being who has ever lived.

And while I do not accept the book of Enoch as being inspired of God, the author's rendering of the passages pertaining to the sons of God and the Nephilim is still consistent with context which portrays the sons of God in this case to be anything but men but in order to make a case that these sons of God were only men, you would have to be able to prove that to be the case from context of those very passages and no one who has taken that position has been able to do that.

BobRyan said:

That would be the only way - and clearly Noah was Nephilim because they exist before the flood and afterwards and the only connection between the two is Noah.

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Not according to Noah's genealogy. The only other explanation, depending on what side of the debate you stand, is that what the fallen angels did before the flood, they also repeated afterward as well.

Contenders Edge said:

I am afraid you may have misunderstood the post to which I was responding to. It was not in reference to angels but to the Nephilim which resulted in the unholy union between the fallen angels and the daughters of men,

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There are no angels mentioned in Genesis 6.

In Matt 22 Christ said angels do not have the function of forming family groups even within their own species let alone with other species.

A number of texts point to humans who accept Christ - as the people of God - as being "sons of God".

And a few texts also refer to the holy angels that way. But never are demons spoken of that way.

John 1:12 an example of humans being offered that title.

The Bible refers to men as “sons of God” in nine different places (cf. Deuteronomy 14:1, 32:5, Psalm 73:15, Isaiah 43:6–7, Hosea 1:10, 11:1, Luke 3:38, 1 John 3:1–2, 10). The text here seems simply to refer to men and women.

Contenders Edge said:

The preceding verses in which the Nephilim are mentioned are clearly tied with the wickedness of man

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1. A lot of wickedness happens on earth without trying to engage in families with demons.
2. there is no command in the bible to not form families and have children with angels or demons - because that is not even a possibility.

"Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth,"

That happens when humans form family units with each other... demons not needed.


"and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose."

That is about being "unequally yoked" - a problem well known to humans when the people of God intermarry with the women of the heathen nations around them - as seen all throughout the OT.

If the "salt of the earth" becomes corrupted -- nothing remains. The earth "goes bad".



3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

God predicts that the long-live-ages of man would cease

4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

Here the text very specifically tells us that the giants are not the result of the "sons of God marrying the daughters of men" -- because the giants where there BEFORE that - AND ALSO - after that.

The commingling of the people of God with the heathen around them via marriage did not give rise to the "giant" state of mankind - it was already there before that... and afterwards.

In fact Noah was also giant and that is why you have Nephilim before and after the flood - Noah's entire family was Nepihlim.

BobRyan said:

There are no angels mentioned in Genesis 6.

In Matt 22 Christ said angels do not have the function of forming family groups even within their own species let alone with other species.

A number of texts point to humans who accept Christ - as the people of God - as being "sons of God".

And a few texts also refer to the holy angels that way. But never are demons spoken of that way.

John 1:12 an example of humans being offered that title.

The Bible refers to men as “sons of God” in nine different places (cf. Deuteronomy 14:1, 32:5, Psalm 73:15, Isaiah 43:6–7, Hosea 1:10, 11:1, Luke 3:38, 1 John 3:1–2, 10). The text here seems simply to refer to men and women.

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First of all, while what Jesus said may be true of the holy angels, that does not mean that the fallen angels did not attempt to produce progeny with women under certain circumstances, going against what God had created them to be. Take also into consideration that angels are not biological beings in the sense that we are and therefore are not bound by the laws of biology and physics as we are which would enable them to bypass, if any so choose, that which all physical life is limited by.

And while I do not dispute the passages that clearly refer to men as being sons of God, neither Job nor the sixth chapter of Genesis call the sons of God men, and in the case of Genesis six, the sons of God could have been nothing more than angels going against what God created them to be as the context presents.

Contenders Edge said:

First of all, while what Jesus said may be true of the holy angels, that does not mean that the fallen angels did not attempt to produce progeny with women under certain circumstances, going against what God had created them to be.

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There is nothing in the Bible stating that demons mate with humans.. and there is no Bible text saying that demons are called "The sons of God".

so we could say "well that may be true but we could suppose some very strange scenarios"... and going that route we could have as creative a history as one may be able to imagine. No question about it.

Contenders Edge said:

Take also into consideration that angels are not biological beings in the sense that we are and therefore are not bound by the laws of biology and physics as we are

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The proposal that demons mate with humans is an incredibly biology-centric proposal that not only do they have biology but it is fully human compatible to the point of parenting a child. Something cannot even do within their own species according to Christ.

Matt 22 does not say "I created Angels with the biology to have families ... I just told them not to do it and the loyal ones don't but the evil ones do"..

That would be an extreme insert into that passage.

And while I do not dispute the passages that clearly refer to men as being sons of God, neither Job nor the sixth chapter of Genesis call the sons of God men, .

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No chapter in all of scripture applies the term "sons of God" to demons or to the ungodly or the rebellious and John 1:12 makes it very clear (as does 1 John 3) that the term is used like "saint" as a way to refer to someone highly identified with God not in rebellion against Him.

So the only time you see it used to apply to humans it is in the context of a family of God - a group following God as his faithful children.

It is never used as a term for a demon in all of scripture.

So the good beings in Job 1 and 2 are aligned with God - Satan is never called "a son of God" or "the son of God" or any such thing.

BobRyan said:

1. A lot of wickedness happens on earth without trying to engage in families with demons.
2. there is no command in the bible to not form families and have children with angels or demons - because that is not even a possibility.

"Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth,"

That happens when humans form family units with each other... demons not needed.


"and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose."

That is about being "unequally yoked" - a problem well known to humans when the people of God intermarry with the women of the heathen nations around them - as seen all throughout the OT.

If the "salt of the earth" becomes corrupted -- nothing remains. The earth "goes bad".



3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

God predicts that the long-live-ages of man would cease

4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

Here the text very specifically tells us that the giants are not the result of the "sons of God marrying the daughters of men" -- because the giants where there BEFORE that - AND ALSO - after that.

The commingling of the people of God with the heathen around them via marriage did not give rise to the "giant" state of mankind - it was already there before that... and afterwards.

In fact Noah was also giant and that is why you have Nephilim before and after the flood - Noah's entire family was Nepihlim.

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As I have said to others, you would have to prove from the context of Genesis chapter six that the sons of God being mentioned were men and not fallen angels, and the production of the Nephilim is contextually portrayed, not as being an act initiated by man, but an act initiated by the fallen angels which gives us insight into depth and height the wickedness of man had reached. It must have reached to an extent high enough to motivate the demonic world to initiate contact with man. And no, the giants did not arrive on the scene before the sons of God began taking the daughters of men as their wives as the passage clearly shows the giants and the sons of God connected to one another: One event resulted in the other.

Contenders Edge said:

As I have said to others, you would have to prove from the context of Genesis chapter six that the sons of God being mentioned were men and not fallen angels,

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That can only be the case if it has said "sons of God are demons and demons married the daughters of men" - then the burden of proof would be on the one claiming "That is not the case".

Contenders Edge said:

and the production of the Nephilim is contextually portrayed, not as being an act initiated by man, but an act initiated by the fallen angels

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1. That cannot be the case while not mentioning fallen angels.
2. Instead of saying "demons married the daughters of men and then there were Nephilim" - the text says.


4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men

A. According to the text - the Nephilim were there before any contact at all between the sons of God and the daughters of men - because

B. the term "sons of God" is always used in the Bible as a positive title -- applied to the loyal people of God , never the wicked, never a demon.

Contenders Edge said:

And no, the giants did not arrive on the scene before the sons of God began taking the daughters of men

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NASB uses the term "Nephilim" in vs 4 - where the KJV uses the term "giant"

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men

Contenders Edge said:

The Nephilim were the result of this unholy union between the sons of God and the daughters of men and a class possessing abilities and attributes possessed by no other men but no one on either side of this debate is arguing that we are half men half angel (don't even know where you got that idea) but this perversion of God's creation which came from these unholy unions was one of the reasons God destroyed the world that once was with a flood.

It must also be noted that the servants of God were not called "sons of God" until much later in the OT, but the title is clearly applied to angels as well as is made more evident in the book of Job. (Job 1:6, 2:1) These sons of God are clearly a distinct race from mankind. But whenever the servants of God are referred to as sons of or children of God, the scripture will always associate the title therewith but that is not contextually the case with Genesis chapter six, nor is it the case in Job.

And I hate to tell you this but the way the NKJV translates the cited passage from Hebrews is not how it was written in the original KJV. The NKJV makes that passage out to say that God does not aid His angels in completing their appointed tasks, whereas the KJV does not tell us anything like that but instead, tells us why Jesus became a man instead of an angel when He came to earth to redeem us from our sins, but any debate about which is the better translation of that passage would be a departure from the thread topic.

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no one on either side of this debate is arguing that we are half men half angel

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That's exactly what is being put forth ... It's the OP Title

Did fallen angels break our code? (referring to DNA)

and no .... angels did not mate with humans.

He created them male and female and each produce after their kind .... including humans.

No account anywhere about angels having the ability of pro-creation ... within themselves or otherwise.

God destroyed the earth by flood because the heart of MAN (mankind) was continuously wicked.

Genesis 6:4
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man (mankind) was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time.

and so it will be when He returns (thoughts of his (mankinds') heart was/will be altogether evil all the time) ..... and will be destroyed

They were all humanoid men.

The fate of the fallen angels was decided long ago ... when Lucifer and the 1/3 were cast out of heaven.

BobRyan said:

There is nothing in the Bible stating that demons mate with humans.. and there is no Bible text saying that demons are called "The sons of God".

so we could say "well that may be true but we could suppose some very strange scenarios"... and going that route we could have as creative a history as one may be able to imagine. No question about it.

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Even sons rebel against their parents, though in the case of angels, they are "created" sons of God. Genesis chapter six is the second insight that we are given regarding wicked spirits and some of the extents they will take to ruin that which God has created.

BobRyan said:

The proposal that demons mate with humans is an incredibly biology-centric proposal that not only do they have biology but it is fully human compatible to the point of parenting a child. Something cannot even do within their own species according to Christ.

Matt 22 does not say "I created Angels with the biology to have families ... I just told them not to do it and the loyal ones don't but the evil ones do"..

That would be an extreme insert into that passage.

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Again, you have overlooked the fact that angels, being spirit beings, are not bound by the same laws of physics and nature that we are and therefore are capable of far more than physical beings. Boundaries have been clearly set for the angels, but it was the fallen one who chose to rebel against them and bypass them. Instead of using their abilities to honor God and to serve the interests of man, they chose to use them for evil and to pervert and corrupt that which God created.

BobRyan said:

No chapter in all of scripture applies the term "sons of God" to demons or to the ungodly or the rebellious and John 1:12 makes it very clear (as does 1 John 3) that the term is used like "saint" as a way to refer to someone highly identified with God not in rebellion against Him.

So the only time you see it used to apply to humans it is in the context of a family of God - a group following God as his faithful children.

It is never used as a term for a demon in all of scripture.

So the good beings in Job 1 and 2 are aligned with God - Satan is never called "a son of God" or "the son of God" or any such thing.

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In the book of Genesis, no clear distinction is given between the holy angels of God and the demons except by their actions. Evil angels are not distinguished as demons until Leviticus (Lev. 17:7) which is why it can still be argued that the sons of God mentioned in the sixth chapter of Genesis were not the sons of God who remained holy, but those who had followed Lucifer in his rebellion against the Creator.

Contenders Edge said:

Even sons rebel against their parents, though in the case of angels, they are "created" sons of God. Genesis chapter six is the second insight that we are given regarding wicked spirits and some of the extents they will take to ruin that which God has created.





Again, you have overlooked the fact that angels, being spirit beings, are not bound by the same laws of physics and nature that we are and therefore are capable of far more than physical beings. Boundaries have been clearly set for the angels, but it was the fallen one who chose to rebel against them and bypass them. Instead of using their abilities to honor God and to serve the interests of man, they chose to use them for evil and to pervert and corrupt that which God created.





In the book of Genesis, no clear distinction is given between the holy angels of God and the demons except by their actions. Evil angels are not distinguished as demons until Leviticus (Lev. 17:7) which is why it can still be argued that the sons of God mentioned in the sixth chapter of Genesis were not the sons of God who remained holy, but those who had followed Lucifer in his rebellion against the Creator.

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Can you name a verse where God calls any fallen angel a son?

BobRyan said:

That can only be the case if it has said "sons of God are demons and demons married the daughters of men" - then the burden of proof would be on the one claiming "That is not the case".

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That the sons of God are contextually made distinct from the daughters of men, and that their actions are tied to the wickedness of man ought to be enough to make that apparent.

BobRyan said:

1. That cannot be the case while not mentioning fallen angels.

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That their actions are associated with the wickedness of man ought to make that apparent.

BobRyan said:

2. Instead of saying "demons married the daughters of men and then there were Nephilim" - the text says.

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men

A. According to the text - the Nephilim were there before any contact at all between the sons of God and the daughters of men - because

B. the term "sons of God" is always used in the Bible as a positive title -- applied to the loyal people of God , never the wicked, never a demon.

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"When" does not mean "before" and while the "sons of God" is by nature a positive title, the actions of these sons of God mentioned in the sixth chapter of Genesis were anything but positive.

BobRyan said:

NASB uses the term "Nephilim" in vs 4 - where the KJV uses the term "giant"

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men

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That is beside the point since Nephilim and giants are regarded as being one and the same.

mmksparbud said:

Can you name a verse where God calls any fallen angel a son?

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Can you prove that the sons of God mentioned in Genesis 6 were not fallen angels? Can you prove it from the context of the passages in that chapter concerning such?

eleos1954 said:

That's exactly what is being put forth ... It's the OP Title

Did fallen angels break our code? (referring to DNA)

and no .... angels did not mate with humans.

He created them male and female and each produce after their kind .... including humans.

No account anywhere about angels having the ability of pro-creation ... within themselves or otherwise.

God destroyed the earth by flood because the heart of MAN (mankind) was continuously wicked.

Genesis 6:4
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man (mankind) was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time.

and so it will be when He returns (thoughts of his (mankinds') heart was/will be altogether evil all the time) ..... and will be destroyed

They were all humanoid men.

The fate of the fallen angels was decided long ago ... when Lucifer and the 1/3 were cast out of heaven.

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First of all the thread topic was not about whether or not the sons of God were fallen angels who mated with women in order to produce offspring, but how fallen angels managed to bypass genetic barriers to produce what is known as the Nephilim and that God created all things to reproduce after their own kind is not what is being debated, but just because God created things to be a certain way, that does not mean that Satan and his demons are not hard at work corrupting and perverting that which the Lord has made and attempting to make His creations to go contrary to what they were designed to be.

Contenders Edge said:

Can you prove that the sons of God mentioned in Genesis 6 were not fallen angels? Can you prove it from the context of the passages in that chapter concerning such?

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There is enough just in the targums that prove the ancient Jews did not take it as fallen angels but men of authority and the Nephilim were men of renown---but called them men--not half breeds. Even the KJV says the Nephilim are MEN.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
They are not called half breeds.

In the Bible - the term "sons of God" as we see it in John 1:12 and in Deut 32:8 and Matt 5:9

Deut 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

Matt 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

John 1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

So then the contrast is between those who serve God and those who serve him not in Genesis 6 - the very real and serious problem in both OT and NT of being joined to unbelievers. Not the less-than-serious problem of forming families with aliens from outer space.

The term is never used for someone at war with God ... whether man or angel.

Contenders Edge said:

That the sons of God are contextually made distinct from the daughters of men, and that their actions are tied to the wickedness of man ought to be enough to make that apparent.

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Certainly it does make it apparent that this is a very real problem for us - and we should preach against doing that very thing - as is done all the time. But it is not about aliens,,, it is about the very common problem of being joined to unbelievers.

BTW - if the book of Enoch were even legit - then it would have had to have been written by Enoch - only lost to us to today in its Hebrew or ??? form... and if that were the case it must have already existed at the time of Moses - and yet it was not known to them, not placed in the ark.. not even mentioned when Moses goes through the history of the world at the time of Enoch and not disclosed to Moses by God for over 40 years of direct contact. In other words if the Bible is true - the book of Enoch was not written by Enoch.

Contenders Edge said:

That their actions are associated with the wickedness of man ought to make that apparent.

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All through the OT the act of joining believers to unbelievers is linked to the apostasy of God's people. You see it in almost all the wicked kings of Israel.

Contenders Edge said:

"When" does not mean "before"

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"and also afterward" means that what happens earlier is "before".

4 "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men"

It cannot be morphed into "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days but ONLY AFTER the sons of God came in to the daughters of men because that is how the Nephilim came into being"

In real life today we know that if group A has a certain trait and then one family from group A goes to a new location and forms another group B out of their own ... and group B ALSO has that same trait -- then the people that went from A to B had the trait. Noah was Nephilim as was Adam.

mmksparbud said:

There is enough just in the targums that prove the ancient Jews did not take it as fallen angels but men of authority and the Nephilim were men of renown---but called them men--not half breeds. Even the KJV says the Nephilim are MEN.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
They are not called half breeds.

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What is more the book of Enoch had to have been known by the time of Josephus in the first century AD - yet he says that the bible canon was complete and unchanged for 400 years in the form of the Hebrew Bible which did not contain the book of Enoch. He was specifically leaving such writing out of his list of what was "Scripture" that had been preserved unchanged for 400 years according to Josephus