Do Two Jerusalems kill the Premill doctrine?

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DavidPT

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No. I choose to side with the facts, not a man-made extra-biblical doctrine.


Don't get me wrong, I like you and BAB, I like you all a lot, regardless that we can't agree on numerous things. But sometimes you guys crack me up. Like this post of yours I'm addressing here. It was rated winner by a poster, so I looked in the list, it was BAB doing the rating. What's so funny about this, you are arguing that Zechariah 14:2-3 has already been fulfilled, and that BAB is arguing that they haven't been, and that he is then rating your post a winner, which means he apparently agrees with you that Zechariah 14:2-3 has already been fulfilled. Wonder why he is arguing the opposite, then? What's something like that called again? Isn't it called being contradictory?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Don't get me wrong, I like you and BAB, I like you all a lot, regardless that we can't agree on numerous things. But sometimes you guys crack me up. Like this post of yours I'm addressing here. It was rated winner by a poster, so I looked in the list, it was BAB doing the rating. What's so funny about this, you are arguing that Zechariah 14:2-3 has already been fulfilled, and that BAB is arguing that they haven't been, and that he is then rating your post a winner, which means he apparently agrees with you that Zechariah 14:2-3 has already been fulfilled. Wonder why he is arguing the opposite, then? What's something like that called again? Isn't it called being contradictory?

And what exactly are you trying to say? That BABerean was out of order to commend my post? This frankly sounds petty and ridiculous.

It would be more advantageous for you to address all the avoided posts.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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There is no logic on the side of Premil.

You bundle Zechariah 14:2 in with clear climactic second coming passages that forbid Premil. You need to first start by correlating Zechariah 14 with Revelation 20, before you try dumping other unrelated all-consummating passages together with it. Of course, the reality is, you, or no Premil, can. It doesn't remotely fit. It will never correlate because Premil is a false doctrine.

The second thing you need to do is address the multiple OT and NT Scripture that show the second coming to be the end. It might give your efforts more credibility if you would actually start by addressing what BABerean and myself are submitting to you instead of constantly ducking around them. This shows your argument is lacking and pushes others towards Amil.

Thread after thread sit as testimony to your avoidance. Argument after argument remains avoided. Scripture after Scripture stands in defiance of your beliefs.
where in the Bible does it say that you are only to compare two chapters of the whole Bible to come to your conclusion? In the premil view. the LORD comes and destroys Satan and a reign of righteousness comes over the planet. The earth is healed and Israel finally is delivered from their enemies and receives the new heart from being born again. In Zech 14 the verse, "in that day they will say the LORD is one' is a key verse and again shows the before and after aspect of everything on one side of the line being sin and corruption and misery and suffering and on the other wickedness is defeated, world peace, the saints are raised, the government is on Jesus shoulder and the increase of His government and the kingdom covers the earth and has no end. This is what you noted nauseates you. How could such a glorious climax to the mission of Christ not be a source of hope? You say people are forcing current events into the texts. I have been around a while and note that Jeremiah was a young man when he came and prophesied about the soon coming destruction of Judah. He was a very old man when it finally happened.
Like wise guys like J Vernon McGee, and Chuck Smith, taught we were close to the end and the urgency to share the gospel and repent of your sins was the result and great revival broke out. Both men taught the entirety of the Bible Gen through Revelation. And the themes in the days of Noah came up in the 70's n 80's as we had never been so immoral. Well look now at that same theme and if you could put a number on how wicked we were back then vs now we were all choir boys then as we have invented new blasphemies with the Q in LGBQ movement. The correlation between behavior and judgement was made by many men back then and the stored wrath today with internet inappropriate content, sex dolls and every high and lofty ideal is against the Bible. The stored wrath now in now quantum times higher then when these men came and could not imagine it getting worse. The movement towards global government was afoot then and now it is very clear that we are in the end game of the NWO scheme to finally achieve it. The temple institute was around as well so that theme of the 3rd temple being made ready for the man of sin to be revealed in and commit the abomination of desolation is also forwarded with current events in Israel.
We are told to search the scriptures comparing scripture with scripture and you are making a ridiculous claim that Zech 14 and Rev 20 don't jive. The entirety of the sum of all prophecy tells the whole story. It is in an earlier post I linked Jer 30 and 31 and talking about the same time with the day of Jacobs trouble being the event at the end of Jer 31 where the city Jerusalem is rebuilt at at time when dead bodies are everywhere and from then on it will be holy and never torn down again. This sure matches Zech 14 as the city is taken over and the dead bodies will be there as well. The matches Rev again the dead bodies will be there and the city will need to be rebuilt. The matches Hosea where Jezreel the other name for Megiddo is the place where it will be said of those once called not my people; that they shall be called sons of the living God. This is exactly the kind of deliverance Luke 1 says jesus will perform by the Holy Spirit and the before and after picture is clear. the same with Isaiah 61 and Dan 7 before and after. The LORD noted he would not cast off the seed of Israel for all they have done and that promised is linked immediately in the context of the promised new covenant. So too is the promise Israel will not cease to be a nation in God's eyes. The new heart promised in Jer 31 is the same promise give to Israel to those brought back to teh mountains that had long been desolate. Indeed the mountains of Israel lay desolate while they were dispersed into all the nations but now it has bloomed like the garden of Eden just as promised. This moment in Zech 14 is them moment like Joseph revealing himself to His brothers and this is when they mourn and are comforted and born again.
 
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sovereigngrace

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where in the Bible does it say that you are only to compare two chapters of the whole Bible to come to your conclusion?

Premil does not have one passage to corroborate it. If you had it you would furnish it.

In the premil view. the LORD comes and destroys Satan and a reign of righteousness comes over the planet.

Not so! This is what Amil believes. The Premil earth is ravaged with all the same blight of our day: sin, death, corruption, war, the wicked and Satan.

The earth is healed and Israel finally is delivered from their enemies and receives the new heart from being born again. In Zech 14 the verse, "in that day they will say the LORD is one' is a key verse and again shows the before and after aspect of everything on one side of the line being sin and corruption and misery and suffering and on the other wickedness is defeated, world peace, the saints are raised, the government is on Jesus shoulder and the increase of His government and the kingdom covers the earth and has no end. This is what you noted nauseates you. How could such a glorious climax to the mission of Christ not be a source of hope? You say people are forcing current events into the texts. I have been around a while and note that Jeremiah was a young man when he came and prophesied about the soon coming destruction of Judah. He was a very old man when it finally happened.

Like wise guys like J Vernon McGee, and Chuck Smith, taught we were close to the end and the urgency to share the gospel and repent of your sins was the result and great revival broke out. Both men taught the entirety of the Bible Gen through Revelation. And the themes in the days of Noah came up in the 70's n 80's as we had never been so immoral. Well look now at that same theme and if you could put a number on how wicked we were back then vs now we were all choir boys then as we have invented new blasphemies with the Q in LGBQ movement. The correlation between behavior and judgement was made by many men back then and the stored wrath today with internet inappropriate content, sex dolls and every high and lofty ideal is against the Bible. The stored wrath now in now quantum times higher then when these men came and could not imagine it getting worse. The movement towards global government was afoot then and now it is very clear that we are in the end game of the NWO scheme to finally achieve it. The temple institute was around as well so that theme of the 3rd temple being made ready for the man of sin to be revealed in and commit the abomination of desolation is also forwarded with current events in Israel.
We are told to search the scriptures comparing scripture with scripture and you are making a ridiculous claim that Zech 14 and Rev 20 don't jive. The entirety of the sum of all prophecy tells the whole story. It is in an earlier post I linked Jer 30 and 31 and talking about the same time with the day of Jacobs trouble being the event at the end of Jer 31 where the city Jerusalem is rebuilt at at time when dead bodies are everywhere and from then on it will be holy and never torn down again. This sure matches Zech 14 as the city is taken over and the dead bodies will be there as well. The matches Rev again the dead bodies will be there and the city will need to be rebuilt. The matches Hosea where Jezreel the other name for Megiddo is the place where it will be said of those once called not my people; that they shall be called sons of the living God. This is exactly the kind of deliverance Luke 1 says jesus will perform by the Holy Spirit and the before and after picture is clear. the same with Isaiah 61 and Dan 7 before and after. The LORD noted he would not cast off the seed of Israel for all they have done and that promised is linked immediately in the context of the promised new covenant. So too is the promise Israel will not cease to be a nation in God's eyes. The new heart promised in Jer 31 is the same promise give to Israel to those brought back to teh mountains that had long been desolate. Indeed the mountains of Israel lay desolate while they were dispersed into all the nations but now it has bloomed like the garden of Eden just as promised. This moment in Zech 14 is them moment like Joseph revealing himself to His brothers and this is when they mourn and are comforted and born again.

I showed you that "Jacob's troubles" occurred thousands of years ago but you suitably avoided the glaring evidence. You have to. To acknowledge the truth would force you to immediately abandon Pretrib and Premil error.

There is nothing else you are furnishing us with but personal opinion.
 
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BABerean2

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This passage is identifying ONE city. You've already agreed that one city is Jerusalem. It doesn't make any sense to me to try to interpret a second city (especially one that had been long destroyed by the time John wrote this). That Babylon was destroyed for her idolatrous ways, I believe, is John's reason for figuratively calling Jerusalem by her name.

One city:

Revelation 11:8 ~ And their bodies will lie in the main street of Jerusalem, the city that is figuratively called “Sodom” and “Egypt,” the city where their Lord was crucified.

Descriptions used for that one city:
  • City where their Lord was crucified
  • City figuratively called "Sodom" and "Egypt "

The following link gives a good explanation of your argument.

Chapter 4: The Evidence For Jerusalem As The Harlot | Bible.org

Two cities are known to sit on seven "hills", or "mountains".
They are Rome, and earthly Jerusalem.


Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


Jerusalem's seven hills are found in the link below.
The Seven Hills of Jerusalem


God reveals the "harlot" below.

Jer 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.


.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Premil does not have one passage to corroborate it. If you had it you would furnish it.



Not so! This is what Amil believes. The Premil earth is ravaged with all the same blight of our day: sin, death, corruption, war, the wicked and Satan.



I showed you that "Jacob's troubles" occurred thousands of years ago but you suitably avoided the glaring evidence. You have to. To acknowledge the truth would force you to immediately abandon Pretrib and Premil error.

There is nothing else you are furnishing us with but personal opinion.


In this debate I have presented no personal opinion not backed by scripture and your dismissal of Jacob's trouble to the past file is certainly not indicated in the text. I have been emphasizing the before and after picture as the entirety of the Bible is like and orchestra all playing the same song. In Jer 30 the city is rebuilt after


if you look at our exchange you accuse me of having no scriptures to support my view and if you weighed the amount of scriptures used your bag is pretty empty and I have provided a huge volume of scripture that present a much more integrated and complex scenario with multiple witnesses all testifying the before and after picture.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Peter was head of the church in what city?


1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

1Pe 5:11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1Pe 5:12 By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.
1Pe 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
1Pe 5:14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.


Can you show us any mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

Christ returns "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God, in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. Can you explain how mortals survive the fire?

Was Peter looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth in 2 Peter 3:10-13, on the Day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief?

We know the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, because we have the return of Christ, at the 7th trumpet which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18. Therefore, there is no seven year tribulation period in the Bible.

.
God has good aim and the fire will not touch everyone. Note that the beast and false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire. They survived. Many who took the mark of the beast will survive too and all who are left will be gone through and the sheep will enter in and the goats will not. In Zech 14 it notes the nations which are left will have to keep the feast of tabernacles, this indicates some nations are entirely undone. In Ezekiel when the LORD is king the inheritance is given out and the boundaries include the great sea. Now in the New Heaven and earth there is no more sea.
 
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sovereigngrace

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In this debate I have presented no personal opinion not backed by scripture and your dismissal of Jacob's trouble to the past file is certainly not indicated in the text. I have been emphasizing the before and after picture as the entirety of the Bible is like and orchestra all playing the same song. In Jer 30 the city is rebuilt after

How about actually addressing the evidence presented? You (once again) ducked around that and presented your own opinions. I will repost:

Pretribbers rip Jacob's troubles from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it to some imaginary seven-year period at the end, to support their end-time beliefs.

A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. Also, it has absolutely nothing to do with the end of time. It rather describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.

Jacob's trouble is shown to relate to Babylonian captivity which occurred back in Nebuchadrezzar’s day. Let us let the Bible speak for itself.

Jeremiah 1:3 “It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.”

Jeremiah 2:27-28: “they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.”

Jeremiah 8:14-15: “assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD. We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! "

Jeremiah 11:10-12: They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.”

Jeremiah 14:7: “O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee. O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble.

Jeremiah 15:2: “And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.”

Jeremiah 20:4: “For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.”

Jeremiah 25:9-11: Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

Jeremiah 29:1: “Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon."

Jeremiah 30:3-7: “For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. "

Jeremiah 30:10-11: “Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.”

This was speaking of Babylon at the time. It reveals a consistent scriptural truth, the vessels God uses to chasten His people, He then casts away. It was only the last few books that were post-exile. As promised, Israel after chastisement was delivered. Babylon was utterly destroyed. They were only one of many nations over the centuries. Today in this New Testament era, those who oppose God's only nation the Church face the same outcome.

Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”

Jeremiah 32:44: “Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.”

Jeremiah 51:1: Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his brigandine: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host. Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, and they that are thrust through in her streets. For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.”

If this was a legal case it would be a closed case. I believe it is absolutely water-tight. The lawyer would simply say: “I rest my case.” I don’t believe there is any question that an objective analyze of this book would come to any other conclusion than the fact that Jeremiah is describing Israel’s captivity in Babylon in his day. There is no mention (or context) of end-times in the prophet’s writings on this matter. Quite the opposite.

The day of trouble that is being highlighted happened long ago in the old covenant period. It does not relate to some supposed future period after Christ returns and saves Israel. Whoever is not saved when Jesus comes is immediately and eternally destroyed.

Many have all been infected with the Scofield interpretation of Scripture instead of the Holy Spirit’s interpretation of the same. I can only conclude that the future location of Jacob’s trouble is a Pretrib invention, misconception and/or misinterpretation.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Hi the 70 years in Babylon and the return to the land is what you are seeing and there is a distinction in the very text and you will have a problem with the end of chapter 31 trying to confine all events to that time period. God's word cannot fail so in chapter 31 it talks about the city Jerusalem being rebuilt at a time when the dead bodies are everywhere and from that time on it will be Holy and never thrown down again. Well it was thrown down again in 70 AD. Chapter 31 is directly connected to chapter 30 as it begins with the phrase in that day. So what day? Chapter 30 speaks of in the latter day you will consider it.
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the LORD.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.


This is placing Jacob's trouble as future and the rebuilding of the city to never be torn down again and holy at Zech 14 and Armageddon. Jacobs trouble is described as
LORD, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the LORD. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’ ”
4 Now these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah.
5 “For thus says the LORD:
‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
Now in this portion we are told it is a day like birth pangs which certainly is part of Mathews end time account. Was David raised up as a king in the days of Nehemiah and Ezra? Was the city rebuilt with dead bodies all around? It is a day like no other. This points to Dan 12
1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

You see this is the day of Jacobs trouble and it points to that time like no other as the time of the Resurrection and certainly is a latter day prophecy. Mathew 24 also speaks of this same time. 5 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[fn] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Here Jesus is pointing to the abomination of desolation and this again is Jacob's trouble. Now here you have 70AD Israel being destroyed and yet he is saved out of it. In Zech 14 if this indeed is the same day all factors are in harmony. The Resurrection of Dan 12 agrees with Rev that the dead live again and reign with Jesus but the rest of the dead not written in the Lamb's book of life did not live again until the 1000 years was over. Then the final rebellion when Satan is loosed and he surrounds the city and that is it game over.

In all this I have pointed out in Luke 1 where Jesus is supposed to provide this very deliverance and conversion of Israel and this is still future. That is why the current events support the millennial view because the temple is coming and so is a one world government. the literal view is coming to pass in real time.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi the 70 years in Babylon and the return to the land is what you are seeing and there is a distinction in the very text and you will have a problem with the end of chapter 31 trying to confine all events to that time period. God's word cannot fail so in chapter 31 it talks about the city Jerusalem being rebuilt at a time when the dead bodies are everywhere and from that time on it will be Holy and never thrown down again. Well it was thrown down again in 70 AD. Chapter 31 is directly connected to chapter 30 as it begins with the phrase in that day. So what day? Chapter 30 speaks of in the latter day you will consider it.
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the LORD.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.


This is placing Jacob's trouble as future and the rebuilding of the city to never be torn down again and holy at Zech 14 and Armageddon. Jacobs trouble is described as
LORD, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the LORD. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’ ”
4 Now these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah.
5 “For thus says the LORD:
‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
Now in this portion we are told it is a day like birth pangs which certainly is part of Mathews end time account. Was David raised up as a king in the days of Nehemiah and Ezra? Was the city rebuilt with dead bodies all around? It is a day like no other. This points to Dan 12
1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

You see this is the day of Jacobs trouble and it points to that time like no other as the time of the Resurrection and certainly is a latter day prophecy. Mathew 24 also speaks of this same time. 5 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[fn] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Here Jesus is pointing to the abomination of desolation and this again is Jacob's trouble. Now here you have 70AD Israel being destroyed and yet he is saved out of it. In Zech 14 if this indeed is the same day all factors are in harmony. The Resurrection of Dan 12 agrees with Rev that the dead live again and reign with Jesus but the rest of the dead not written in the Lamb's book of life did not live again until the 1000 years was over. Then the final rebellion when Satan is loosed and he surrounds the city and that is it game over.

In all this I have pointed out in Luke 1 where Jesus is supposed to provide this very deliverance and conversion of Israel and this is still future. That is why the current events support the millennial view because the temple is coming and so is a one world government. the literal view is coming to pass in real time.

Your teachers have taught you wrong. Daniel 12 has absolutely nothing to do with Jacob's trouble. He makes no reference to the same. This is a record of the second coming. Jeremiah is talking about the exile in Babylon. Please read the text before coming out with such erroneous statements. 2+2=4, not 22.

There is a reason why a lot of us have abandoned this error.

Show me a "rapture" passage that shows a 7 yr trib following it?
Show me a "3rd Coming" passage that shows a 7 yr trib preceding it?

Your doctrine does not enjoy one single proof text. If I am wrong present it!
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi the 70 years in Babylon and the return to the land is what you are seeing and there is a distinction in the very text and you will have a problem with the end of chapter 31 trying to confine all events to that time period. God's word cannot fail so in chapter 31 it talks about the city Jerusalem being rebuilt at a time when the dead bodies are everywhere and from that time on it will be Holy and never thrown down again. Well it was thrown down again in 70 AD. Chapter 31 is directly connected to chapter 30 as it begins with the phrase in that day. So what day? Chapter 30 speaks of in the latter day you will consider it.
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the LORD.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.


This is placing Jacob's trouble as future and the rebuilding of the city to never be torn down again and holy at Zech 14 and Armageddon. Jacobs trouble is described as
LORD, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the LORD. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’ ”
4 Now these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah.
5 “For thus says the LORD:
‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
Now in this portion we are told it is a day like birth pangs which certainly is part of Mathews end time account. Was David raised up as a king in the days of Nehemiah and Ezra? Was the city rebuilt with dead bodies all around? It is a day like no other. This points to Dan 12
1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

You see this is the day of Jacobs trouble and it points to that time like no other as the time of the Resurrection and certainly is a latter day prophecy. Mathew 24 also speaks of this same time. 5 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[fn] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Here Jesus is pointing to the abomination of desolation and this again is Jacob's trouble. Now here you have 70AD Israel being destroyed and yet he is saved out of it. In Zech 14 if this indeed is the same day all factors are in harmony. The Resurrection of Dan 12 agrees with Rev that the dead live again and reign with Jesus but the rest of the dead not written in the Lamb's book of life did not live again until the 1000 years was over. Then the final rebellion when Satan is loosed and he surrounds the city and that is it game over.

In all this I have pointed out in Luke 1 where Jesus is supposed to provide this very deliverance and conversion of Israel and this is still future. That is why the current events support the millennial view because the temple is coming and so is a one world government. the literal view is coming to pass in real time.

Where is a rapture mentioned in Jeremiah? Nowhere!
Where is a 7 year tribulation mentioned in Jeremiah? Nowhere!
Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Jeremiah? Nowhere!
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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the scriptures teach that the church was a mystery not revealed in the old testament so if the church was not mentioned the rapture can not specifically mentioned because it is a rapture of the church. I have not mentioned the rapture once by the way so you are bringing up new ground. The LORD comes only twice the idea of the 3rd coming would be calling the translation of the saints a coming of the LORD. It is like Start Trek Captain Kirk is coming to save and indeed when he beams them up in the nick of time he indeed in a sense came for them. But if he beams down to the planet and fights off the adversaries that is a huge difference. So if you want to count 3 comings that is fine with me. The rapture is in the OT a bit cryptically Ill admit but Isaiah 26 is and interesting little aside.

Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

John 14

Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions;[fn] if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.[fn] 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”


Rev 3 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Luke 21 34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

We exchanged ideas on Jacobs trouble and I presented a contradiction as to the promise of the city being built and never torn down again and it was built at a time when dead bodies are all around. I maintained this is future and it agrees with Zech 14 Armageddon and you concluded that all of that was fulfilled already. Then Jerusalem was torn down again in 70 AD. How to explain this contradiction?
 
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sovereigngrace

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the scriptures teach that the church was a mystery not revealed in the old testament so if the church was not mentioned the rapture can not specifically mentioned because it is a rapture of the church. I have not mentioned the rapture once by the way so you are bringing up new ground. The LORD comes only twice the idea of the 3rd coming would be calling the translation of the saints a coming of the LORD. It is like Start Trek Captain Kirk is coming to save and indeed when he beams them up in the nick of time he indeed in a sense came for them. But if he beams down to the planet and fights off the adversaries that is a huge difference. So if you want to count 3 comings that is fine with me. The rapture is in the OT a bit cryptically Ill admit but Isaiah 26 is and interesting little aside.

Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

John 14

Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions;[fn] if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.[fn] 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”


Rev 3 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Luke 21 34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

We exchanged ideas on Jacobs trouble and I presented a contradiction as to the promise of the city being built and never torn down again and it was built at a time when dead bodies are all around. I maintained this is future and it agrees with Zech 14 Armageddon and you concluded that all of that was fulfilled already. Then Jerusalem was torn down again in 70 AD. How to explain this contradiction?

Stop avoiding the issues!

Show me a "rapture" passage that shows a 7 yr trib following it?
Show me a "3rd Coming" passage that shows a 7 yr trib preceding it?
 
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mkgal1

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God's word cannot fail so in chapter 31 it talks about the city Jerusalem being rebuilt at a time when the dead bodies are everywhere and from that time on it will be Holy and never thrown down again. Well it was thrown down again in 70 AD.
I agree that God's Word never fails. So think about which Jerusalem is eternal.....which one will never be thrown down again.

The earthly Jerusalem was the one that Jesus pointed to and said would have every stone thrown down within the 1st century generation (and it was!). So what Jerusalem is left as the eternal one? I think this point supports the assertion made in the OP about two Jerusalems.

Mark 13:2 - Do you see all these great buildings?” Jesus replied. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Chronology of the War According to Josephus: Part 7, The Fall of Jerusalem


New House New Stones <----Quoting this article: "The New House was established at the baptism. That was day one."​
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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You are changing the debate mid stream and somehow the rapture is now the central issue. You have not answered my specific questions and are now steering the debate off topic. The two Jerusalem's and weather they spell the and for dispensationalist was the debate. Jacob's trouble , the 70th week of Daniel, Zech 14, and Rev 1000 years and all are the main topic. This tactic has you avoiding the ground we already have covered and indeed in the last post I gave a short medley of scriptures that touch on the rapture question. I think it best that we conclude as we are both very well set in our beliefs. As time moves forward we will soon find out who is right.
 
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nolidad

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And not only that, verse 3 in Zechariah 14 makes it undeniably clear, that at some point during the events recorded in verse 2, the LORD will then go and fight those nations on the behalf of the ones being surrounded. In 70 AD, who was being surrounded in Jerusalem? Was it not unbelieving Jews still living in the city? Did the LORD fight the Romans on their behalf? If He did, like I pointed out in a prior post, this would make Him one of the biggest failures in history since He didn't even manage to defeat the Romans on their behalf.

If Amils, such as SG are correct, that Zechariah 14:2-3 is past history, then he/they should have an answer for all of the following. But if he/they don't, what should that be telling anyone with a brain?
It would clearly mean they should flat out reject what they are proposing if they can't even prove what they are proposing.

and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Explain these parts and how that this is exactly what happened in 70 AD. IN 70 AD, in what way did half of the city go forth into captivity? In 70 AD, in what way were the residue of the people not cut off from the city?

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.


In 70 AD, in what way did the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle?

YOu have hit the nail on the head when it comes to those who hold to an allegorical understanding of the Bible.

Basically (and of course there are many variations) they hold that if something is close- then it must have been fulfilled. But close enough is not good enough when it comes to rightly dividing the Word of Truth!
 
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nolidad

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I think you need to study history better. The Roman Empire represented the Gentile nations of the known world at that time. It came against Jerusalem a long time ago.

It is not I but you who have to refresh your knowledge of ancient ME history.

Rome was the great EMpire, but it was not of the known world. Rome did not even conquer as far as Alexander the Great did. They knew of India and parts of the far east.

They built Hadrians wall in England to keep the Celts out! They had not conquered land in middle and southern Africa!

If God meant Rome to "represent" the Gentile nations, He would have told us somehow! But He didn't.

The roman Empire was simply the first part of the fourth beast (Gentile Rule) in Daniel.
 
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DavidPT

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Since the following has been a topic of discussion as of late, here's my 2 cents.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.


One is to believe that verse 9 fits a time prior to the first coming? One is to believe that David their king is not meaning Christ? But let's say Christ is not meant by David their king, but that it's literally meaning David, then. That has to mean this part---whom I will raise up unto them---is meaning a literal bodily resurrection, in that case. The text clearly indicates that the ones who shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, are the same ones meant in verse 7.


All of that aside, I just found the following commentary earlier today. I suggest others maybe read it then compare it to the commentary in post #147.
https://www.explainingthebook.com/jeremiah-30-commentary/
 
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Victor in Christ

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Please get your mind, eyes and heart off 2 Jerusalems, it only distracts your faith and devotion to our Lord Jesus Christ sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven. Let God work his divine plan on Earth only he knows the day/hour and how his plan on earth is to be done. god Bless
 
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sovereigngrace

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It is not I but you who have to refresh your knowledge of ancient ME history.

Rome was the great EMpire, but it was not of the known world. Rome did not even conquer as far as Alexander the Great did. They knew of India and parts of the far east.

They built Hadrians wall in England to keep the Celts out! They had not conquered land in middle and southern Africa!

If God meant Rome to "represent" the Gentile nations, He would have told us somehow! But He didn't.

The roman Empire was simply the first part of the fourth beast (Gentile Rule) in Daniel.

I refer you back to my last post.
 
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nolidad

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What is the spiritual condition of earthly Jerusalem near the time of the return of Christ, described in the passage below?

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (See Revelation 1:20 to find the symbolic representation of the "candlesticks", and see Romans 11 to find the symbolic representation of the "olive trees". Or, are these two men made of wood, and metal?)
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. (See John 5:27-30.)
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. (See 1 Thessalonians 4, and 5.)
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
(Why do the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God, and Christ, "forever" at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible? How long is "forever"?)

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(See Matthew 25:31-46, and John 5:27-30, and 2 Timothy 4:1, for the judgment of the living and the dead.)

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


Why is the time of the judgment of the dead in verse 18 above, with reward for some, and destruction for others, if the book of Revelation is in chronological order?

.

And none of all this proves one iota that your allegoriszing makes Jerusalem Babylon that Great City in revelation! It is just an opinion . Given that Babylon has been rebuilt and is growing in influence again- I am satisfied without spiritualizing Jersusalem to be Babylon the Great! And even if it was still just a small outpost like it was for centuries- there is still no biblical cause to call Jerusalem Babylon.
 
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