Shabbat and Spiritual Warfare

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟37,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Joshua 6:
3
You shall march around the city, all you men of war; you shall go all around the city once. This you shall do six days.
4
And seven priests shall bear seven trumpets of rams’ horns before the ark. But the seventh day you shall march around the city seven times, and the priests shall blow the trumpets.
5 It shall come to pass, when they make a long blast with the ram’s horn, and when you hear the sound of the trumpet, that all the people shall shout with a great shout; then the wall of the city will fall down flat. And the people shall go up every man straight before him.

Note that the instructions were not to compass the city for six days, observe a Sabbath rest, and then resume the assault. On the contrary, the seventh day required seven times the commitment to gain the victory. And why?

Who hates the Sabbath; everything and everyone it represents?


Matthew 12:
43
When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places,
seeking rest, and finds none.
44 Then he says, I will return to my house from which I came. And when he comes,
he finds it empty, swept, and put in order.
45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself,
and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
So shall it also be with this wicked generation.

I have observed members of this forum debating for 100's of hours about a day, without receiving the Person in their Spirit that opens their understanding to comprehend the scriptures. There is one who would like nothing better than for you to continue in the same.

2 Corinthians 2:11. Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
James 3:
14
But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

John 6:63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 3:31. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly,
and speaketh of the earth
: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Hebrews 4:8. For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have
spoken of another day.

Are you of the earth, or born from above? Is Shabbat a day, or the Spirit of Truth?
 

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,687
8,038
US
✟1,060,793.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Hebrews 4:8. For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have
spoken of another day.

Joshua spoke long before Yahshua was born; but Yahshua's disciples observed the Sabbath long after Yahshua ascended.

Is Shabbat a day, or the Spirit of Truth?

The Torah is truth.

(CLV) Ps 119:142
Your righteousness is eonian righteousness, And Your law is truth.

What does YHWH's Torah say?

Exodus 31
12 YAHWEH said to Moshe, 13 Tell the people of Isra’el, ‘You are to observe my Shabbats; for this is a sign between me and you through all your generations; so that you will know that I am YAHWEH, who sets you apart for me. 17 It is a sign between me and the people of Isra’el forever; for in six days ADONAI made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he stopped working and rested.’

Now let's read the verse you presented in context.

(CLV) Hb 4:8
For if Joshua causes them to stop, He would not have spoken concerning another day after these things.

(CLV) Hb 4:9
Consequently a sabbatism is left for the people of God.

(CLV) Hb 4:10
For he who is entering into His stopping, he also stops from his works even as God from His own.

(CLV) Hb 4:11
We should be endeavoring, then, to be entering into that stopping, lest anyone should be falling into the same example of stubbornness.
 
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟37,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
John 6:63. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Romans 7:6. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by,
so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
2 Corinthians 3:
4
And we have such trust through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves,
but our sufficiency is from God,
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant,
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
6,112
1,696
✟201,659.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Joshua 6:
3
You shall march around the city, all you men of war; you shall go all around the city once. This you shall do six days.
4
And seven priests shall bear seven trumpets of rams’ horns before the ark. But the seventh day you shall march around the city seven times, and the priests shall blow the trumpets.
5 It shall come to pass, when they make a long blast with the ram’s horn, and when you hear the sound of the trumpet, that all the people shall shout with a great shout; then the wall of the city will fall down flat. And the people shall go up every man straight before him.

Note that the instructions were not to compass the city for six days, observe a Sabbath rest, and then resume the assault. On the contrary, the seventh day required seven times the commitment to gain the victory. And why?

Who hates the Sabbath; everything and everyone it represents?


Matthew 12:
43
When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places,
seeking rest, and finds none.
44 Then he says, I will return to my house from which I came. And when he comes,
he finds it empty, swept, and put in order.
45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself,
and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
So shall it also be with this wicked generation.

I have observed members of this forum debating for 100's of hours about a day, without receiving the Person in their Spirit that opens their understanding to comprehend the scriptures. There is one who would like nothing better than for you to continue in the same.

2 Corinthians 2:11. Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
James 3:
14
But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

John 6:63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 3:31. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly,
and speaketh of the earth
: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Hebrews 4:8. For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have
spoken of another day.

Are you of the earth, or born from above? Is Shabbat a day, or the Spirit of Truth?
Hebrews 4 speaks of the rest seemingly by Joshua. The seventh day was given long before Joshua brought them into the rest of their inheritance.
Moses spoke of this rest
De 12:9 For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the LORD your God giveth you.

Jos 22:4 And now the LORD your God hath given rest unto your brethren, as he promised them: therefore now return ye, and get you unto your tents, and unto the land of your possession, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave you on the other side Jordan.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,687
8,038
US
✟1,060,793.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Romans 7:6. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by,

Paul established early on in this letter that we are sustaining the law.

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

...and if we read just a few verses more...

(CLV) Ro 7:12
So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good.
 
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟37,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
John 3:3. Jesus answered and said to him, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Galatians 3:2. This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law,
or by the hearing of faith?
Romans 8:16. The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
Is Shabbat a day, or the Spirit of Truth?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ralliann
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟37,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
The OP poses this question and one possible answer. Is there another explanation?
Note that the instructions were not to compass the city for six days, observe a Sabbath rest, and then resume the assault. On the contrary, the seventh day required seven times the commitment to gain the victory. And why?

Who hates the Sabbath; everything and everyone it represents?


Joshua 6:1. Now Jericho was securely shut up because of the children of Israel; none went out, and none came in.
Matthew 17:21. However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.
Isaiah 58:
6
Is this not the fast that I have chosen: To loose the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the heavy burdens, To let the oppressed go free,
And that you break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,
And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out;
When you see the naked, that you cover him,
And not hide yourself from your own flesh?
8 Then your light shall break forth like the morning,
Your healing shall spring forth speedily,
And your righteousness shall go before you;
The glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.
9 Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;
You shall cry, and He will say, ‘Here I am.
13 If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,

14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the Lord has spoken
 
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟37,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I personally do not see a dilemma. Jesus did the will of His Father, even on the Sabbath. He was condemned for casting out demons on the Sabbath. If the command of God is to go out and march around Jericho and cast down the walls, whatever the spiritual analogy you want to draw, the day of the week is not relevant. The Will of God must be obeyed, even if there seems to be a violation of the Sabbath.
Mark 3:4. Then He said to them, Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill? But they kept silent.
 
Upvote 0

Hawkins

Member
Supporter
Apr 27, 2005
2,559
394
Canada
✟235,114.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I personally do not see a dilemma. Jesus did the will of His Father, even on the Sabbath. He was condemned for casting out demons on the Sabbath. If the command of God is to go out and march around Jericho and cast down the walls, whatever the spiritual analogy you want to draw, the day of the week is not relevant. The Will of God must be obeyed, even if there seems to be a violation of the Sabbath.
Mark 3:4. Then He said to them, Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill? But they kept silent.

So did Christians in majority in history, started with Paul's churches, break the Jewish Sabbath or not?
are they saved?

Jesus Himself actually skipped the term "Sabbath" when He mentioned the commandments. God accepts Sunday services as the form of Sabbath observed by Christians. Back in Paul's days, it is also understandable that Christians attend churches on Sundays such that Jewish Christians can observe the Jewish Sabbath on Saturdays.

Mark 10:19 (NIV2011)
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”

Apparently, Jesus knew before hand that Christians won't observe the Sabbath the same way as the Jews did!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟37,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
So did Christians in majority in history, started with Paul's churches, break the Jewish Sabbath or not?
are they saved?
Paul ministered on the Sabbath, as did the Lord. Paul preached in the synagogues on the Sabbath, someone must have been there to hear. Paul said we cannot judge another in these matters, because every believer is personally accountable to his or her master.
Romans 14:
5
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike.
Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord
; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.
8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

If the Lord puts it on your heart to volunteer to spend a weekend building affordable housing with
Habitat For Humanity and someone wants to condemn you for not observing the Sabbath, that is on them.
Mark 3:4. Then He said to them, Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill? But they kept silent.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hawkins

Member
Supporter
Apr 27, 2005
2,559
394
Canada
✟235,114.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Paul ministered on the Sabbath, as did the Lord. Paul preached in the synagogues on the Sabbath, someone must have been there to hear. Paul said we cannot judge another in these matters, because every believer in personally accountable to his or her master.
Romans 14:
5
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike.
Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord
; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.
8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

If the Lord puts it on your heart to volunteer to spend a weekend building affordable housing with
Habitat For Humanity and someone wants to condemn you for not observing the Sabbath, that is on them.
Mark 3:4. Then He said to them, Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill? But they kept silent.

Since when Paul said that it is a Saturday?

The verse you quote here doesn't contradict what I said that God accepts Sunday services as the Sabbath of Christians.
 
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟37,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Since when Paul said that it is a Saturday?
I don't know what you are talking about. This thread does not address what day of the week question. That is being debated elsewhere. This OP, as I keep directing to, is this:

Mark 3:4. Then He said to them, Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil.
 
Upvote 0

Hawkins

Member
Supporter
Apr 27, 2005
2,559
394
Canada
✟235,114.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't know what you are talking about. This thread does not address what day of the week question. That is being debated elsewhere. This OP, as I keep directing to, is this:

Mark 3:4. Then He said to them, Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil.

You don't know what you are talking. The verse Mark 3:4 shows Jesus is in disagreement with the Jews on what the term Sabbath is.

Paul as a Jew, with his fellow Jews can observe the Jewish Sabbath as they are the Jews. However, Paul never said explicitly that gentile Christians should use Saturday as the day for Sabbath, including the verses you quoted from Romans.

You still dodge the questions without a simple yes or no answer. Did Christians in majority break the Sabbath or not, in your opinion?
 
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟37,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
You don't know what you are talking. The verse Mark 3:4 shows Jesus is in disagreement with the Jews on what the term Sabbath is.
Actually, that is my point. They condemned Him. He rejected their understanding of Shabbat.
That is the OP. Walk in the Spirit. Let no one condemn you. That is Paul's teaching. Jesus healed on the Sabbath, because it was His Father's Will.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dkh587
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hawkins

Member
Supporter
Apr 27, 2005
2,559
394
Canada
✟235,114.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Actually, that is my point. They condemned Him. He rejected their understanding of Shabbat.
That is the OP. Walk in the Spirit. Let no one condemn you. That is Paul's teaching. Jesus healed on the Sabbath, because it was His Father's Will.

Well, if so why not just put an answer No to my question. It isn't difficult. Christians in majority didn't observe the Jewish Sabbath. Period!
 
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟37,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Well, if so why not just put an answer No to my question. It isn't difficult. Christians in majority didn't observe the Jewish Sabbath. Period!
Again, that was not the point of the OP. You strayed from the topic.
 
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟37,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
The Torah is truth.
Rightly comprehending the scriptures by the Holy Spirit is Truth.
Luke 24:
44
Then He said to them, These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.
45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
One must be born from above, or one will be dogmatic.
David Koresh studied Torah in Hebrew. Taught heresy in English.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,687
8,038
US
✟1,060,793.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟37,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
A Daily Christian

Acts 19:9. But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
Acts 17:17. Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
Acts 17:11. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Acts 16:5. And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
Acts 5:42. And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
Acts 2:46, 47. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
 
Upvote 0