Did fallen angels break our code?

ChetSinger said:

Btw, did you know that the transfiguration occurred on the same mountain, Mt. Hermon, where according to Jewish tradition was the location where those angels in Genesis 6 came down to earth?

Click to expand...

mindlight said:

That is so cool!!!!!

Click to expand...

Except it's not true. According to Church tradition, the Transfiguration took place at Mount Tabor and churches dedicated to this event are there. And of course there is no evidence that Gen 6 took place at Mt. Hermon, either.

mindlight said:

Since no 'sons of Seth' survived the flood this is the more plausible explanation of the reoccurrence of Nephilim in Numbers and Joshua.

Click to expand...

Sons of Seth actually survived the Flood. Luke 3:36-38 shows that Noah was the son of Lamech, the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Malaleel, the son of Cainan, the son of Enos, the son of Seth.

mindlight said:

If the source of the Nephilim was angelic - human unions then they could have all been wiped out by the flood and yet still appear later because new fallen angels made new unions.

Click to expand...

Have they stopped raping girls and reproducing nephilim or do they continue to do so as a participant in the other thread said this is the reason the Apostle Paul advised women to cover their hair!

mindlight said:

Shortly before the flood Genesis and books like Enoch, that did not make it into the Protestant canon but are accepted by other Christian churches, mention an event that may have exacerbated the breakage in creation and in the human condition. Angels found ways to breed with humans and played with our DNA to produce giants and superheroes into human literature and culture and into the DNA pool. Many of these were wiped out but even after the flood there is the account in Joshua of Caleb taking on the giants of Hebron or in 1 Samuel 17 of David tackling Goliath.

Enoch is described in Genesis as one of only two men in the bible along with Elijah to never die and one who is supposed to have visited heaven and returned before he was finally taken up there. The book of Enoch did not make the Protestant canon but it is in the canon of other churches. It says it was written by Enoch but it was more probably written down after the flood having been shared from a preflood oral tradition which was not perfectly recalled, there are some big and obvious errors in it. It describes 200 angels led by Azaĺiel who were in part rebels from God and in part interested in promoting humanity at Gods expense. Basically the story echoes the account in Genesis of the Nephilim. The idea being that angels fiddled with human DNA breaking its original design and harmony further exaccerbating the effects of the fall.

So did angels break our code thus making us more vulnerable to plagues like that produced by Sars-Cov-2?

Click to expand...

The book of Enoch is not in the Torah. This should tell you why it is not in the Cannon. Be blessed and stay healthy!

Andrewn said:

Except it's not true. According to Church tradition, the Transfiguration took place at Mount Tabor and churches dedicated to this event are there. And of course there is no evidence that Gen 6 took place at Mt. Hermon, either.

Click to expand...

Yes, it's true that Mount Tabor is the traditional site of the transfiguration. But I've read from a contemporary scholar that he and his peers are moving away from that and toward Mount Hermon. The reasons given are:

• The mountain's name is never actually named in scripture.
• The identification of Mount Tabor doesn't appear in church history until centuries after the transfiguration.
• The close proximity of Caesarea Phillipi (where the previous events took place) to Mount Hermon make it a logical choice.
• Matthew and Mark describe the location as a "high mountain". Mount Tabor is not, and Mount Hermon is; it is almost five times higher than Mount Tabor.
• The religious associations of Mount Hermon with the forces of evil (such as Psalm 68:15-16) make it a logical place for Jesus to assert his dominance.

So in this instance I favor our contemporary scholars over Cyril and Jerome.

mindlight said:

It is in the Ethiopian canon and quoted from in Jude. There were numerous copies found at Qumran indicating a wide circulation. But agreed it should not be regarded as canonical only as a useful reference giving some context.

Click to expand...

I personally consider the book highly misleading so I stay away from it. At one time it was very intriguing to me , but now I see its blatant errors.

mindlight said:

Angels can manifest in human form

Click to expand...

True - and humans cannot morph into the form of other species.. no doubt.

Still even in that context - Matt 22 Christ said that because humans will be like the angels EVEN the humans will not be forming families - how much less angels who never had that to start with.

so then a few important Bible details in Genesis 6

1. Nothing there about angels at all.
2. Nothing there about 'giants as the result of sons of God marrying the daughters of men' -- in other words it does not say everyone was normal size except the wicked hybrids.
3. Noah was one of them.. he and his family all ... because the giants exist after the flood as well according to the Bible - and because there is also no mention after the flood that angels were marrying humans.

So whatever they are - Noah and his family - are them. (when it comes to giants)

And that means we are all their descendants.

Just as we see the long-lived-ages of man before the flood that gradually shrink down to what we have today -- so also the 12-13 ft stature of man shrank down after the flood to what we have today.

=========================================
The Ancient Giants Who Ruled America - Graham Hancock Official Website

“For sheer mind-blowing diversity, the discoveries across the state of Ohio may be the richest and most unusual in the country. Not only are there numerous finds of giants 8-10 feet tall, but there are also related finds that are equally astonishing. Among the most significant are the Cincinnati tablets inscribed with hieroglyphs, textiles that resemble those from Assyria and Babylon, a skull examined by a surgeon in Cincinnati that exhibits evidence of brain surgery that “shows knowledge of practical surgery scarcely excelled at the present day,”

============================================


"As Adam came forth from the hand of his Creator, he was of noble height, and of beautiful symmetry. He was more than twice as tall as men now living upon earth, and was well proportioned. His features were perfect and beautiful. His complexion was neither white, nor sallow, but ruddy, glowing with the rich tint of health. Eve was not quite as tall as Adam. Her head reached a little above his shoulders. She, too, was noble—perfect in symmetry, and very beautiful.—Spiritual Gifts 3:34 (1864). {LDE 291.4}"

mindlight said:

You appear quite determined to deny the overwhelming tradition on this and the multiple sources that can be cited to affirm the view that sons of god refers to angels. The following quote from Wikipedia should give you multiple contradictory sources to your view:

All early sources refer to the "sons of heaven" as angels. From the third century BCE onwards, references are found in the Enochic literature, the Dead Sea Scrolls (the Genesis Apocryphon, the Damascus Document, 4Q180), Jubilees, the Testament of Reuben, 2 Baruch, Josephus, and the book of Jude (compare with 2 Peter 2). For example: 1 Enoch 7:2 "And when the angels, (3) the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children." Some Christian apologists, such as Tertullian and especially Lactantius, shared this opinion.
The earliest statement in a secondary commentary explicitly interpreting this to mean that angelic beings mated with humans can be traced to the rabbinical Targum Pseudo-Jonathan and it has since become especially commonplace in modern Christian commentaries. This line of interpretation finds additional support in the text of Genesis 6:4, which juxtaposes the sons of God (male gender, divine nature) with the daughters of men (female gender, human nature). From this parallelism it could be inferred that the sons of God are understood as some superhuman beings.[24]
The New American Bible commentary draws a parallel to the Epistle of Jude and the statements set forth in Genesis, suggesting that the Epistle refers implicitly to the paternity of Nephilim as heavenly beings who came to earth and had sexual intercourse with women.[25] The footnotes of the Jerusalem Bible suggest that the biblical author intended the Nephilim to be an "anecdote of a superhuman race".[26]
Some Christian commentators have argued against this view, citing Jesus's statement that angels do not marry.[27] Others believe that Jesus was only referring to angels in heaven.[28]
Evidence cited in favor of the fallen angels interpretation includes the fact that the phrase "the sons of God" (Hebrew: בְּנֵי הָֽאֱלֹהִים; or "sons of the gods") is used twice outside of Genesis chapter 6, in the Book of Job (1:6 and 2:1) where the phrase explicitly references angels. The Septuagint manuscript Codex Alexandrinus reading of Genesis 6:2 renders this phrase as "the angels of God" while Codex Vaticanus reads "sons".[29]
Targum Pseudo-Jonathan identifies the Nephilim as Shemihaza and the angels in the name list from 1 Enoch.[30]

Nephilim - Wikipedia

The view to the contrary comes afterwards and especially from Orthodox Judaism which was formed in response to the success of the Christians not before it

Click to expand...

No, I am determined to believe what the original writers of God's word wrote, and meant, and not the fantasies of men!! I do not care how many people believe this---it is not of God any way that you think about it! And that is one of the problems---they don't think about it! How it totally contradicts the word of God, the character of God, human fertility demands (people even have problems conseiving as it is and have to resort to serogates, IVF and anything else they can in order to have a child!) they disregard common sense even and just believe in 450 feet offspring! Whatever---we are all free to think Donald Duck is God---just don't ask me to believe! The targums were long before Christ was born, they are from right after the exile---Rabbis were not worried about the success of Christianity then, there were none!!

BobRyan said:

..so then a few important Bible details in Genesis 6

1. Nothing there about angels at all...

Click to expand...

I think there is. To my knowledge the Hebrew term "sons of God" appears in the scriptures in these seven places:


Afaik the last six of the seven are all understood to be angelic members of God's divine council. For example, here is the NET Bible's footnote on Psalms 89:6:

tn Heb “sons of gods”; or “sons of God.” Though אֵלִים (’elim) is vocalized as a plural form (“gods”) in the Hebrew text, it is likely that the final mem (ם) is actually enclitic rather than a plural marker. In this case one may read “God.” Some, following a Qumran text and the LXX, also propose the phrase occurred in the original text of Deut 32:8. The phrase בְנֵי אֵלִים (vĸney ’elim, “sons of gods” or “sons of God”) occurs only here and in Ps 29:1. Since the “sons of gods/God” are here associated with “the assembly of the holy ones” and “council of the holy ones,” the heavenly assembly (comprised of so-called “angels” and other supernatural beings) appears to be in view. See Job 5:1; 15:15 and Zech 14:5, where these supernatural beings are referred to as “holy ones.” In Canaanite mythological texts the divine council of the high god El is called “the sons of El.” The OT apparently uses the Canaanite phrase, applying it to the supernatural beings that surround the Lord’s heavenly throne.

Click to expand...

If the "sons of God" in all but Genesis 6:1-4 are understood to be supernatural beings in the divine council, why should that passage be understood any differently?

ChetSinger said:

I think there is. To my knowledge the Hebrew term "sons of God" appears in the scriptures in these seven places:

Genesis 6:1-4
Deuteronomy 32:7-8
Job 1:6
Job 2:1
Job 38:4-7
Psalms 29:1
Psalms 89:6​

Afaik the last six of the seven are all understood to be angelic members of God's divine council. For example, here is the NET Bible's footnote on Psalms 89:6:

If the "sons of God" in all but Genesis 6:1-4 are understood to be supernatural beings in the divine council, why should that passage be understood any differently?

Click to expand...

For the simple reason that throughout the Old and New, we are called His sons and He has called Himself our Father. Context. Fables that are contrary to the laws of God (after it's kind), the very laws of nature itself, contrary to His character, contrary to common sense (450 foot Nephilim would have needed about a 200 lb baby, at the least), are simply better of left to those who do not believe in God.

mindlight said:

Shortly before the flood Genesis and books like Enoch, that did not make it into the Protestant canon but are accepted by other Christian churches, mention an event that may have exacerbated the breakage in creation and in the human condition. Angels found ways to breed with humans and played with our DNA to produce giants and superheroes into human literature and culture and into the DNA pool. Many of these were wiped out but even after the flood there is the account in Joshua of Caleb taking on the giants of Hebron or in 1 Samuel 17 of David tackling Goliath.

Enoch is described in Genesis as one of only two men in the bible along with Elijah to never die and one who is supposed to have visited heaven and returned before he was finally taken up there. The book of Enoch did not make the Protestant canon but it is in the canon of other churches. It says it was written by Enoch but it was more probably written down after the flood having been shared from a preflood oral tradition which was not perfectly recalled, there are some big and obvious errors in it. It describes 200 angels led by Azaĺiel who were in part rebels from God and in part interested in promoting humanity at Gods expense. Basically the story echoes the account in Genesis of the Nephilim. The idea being that angels fiddled with human DNA breaking its original design and harmony further exaccerbating the effects of the fall.

So did angels break our code thus making us more vulnerable to plagues like that produced by Sars-Cov-2?

Click to expand...

Yes Fallen angels married human women and produced the half angel half human, nephilim. The souls of the dead nephilim killed in the flood became the demons that Jesus cast out.

Now this has nothing to do with getting sick.

d taylor said:

Yes Fallen angels married human women and produced the half angel half human, nephilim. The souls of the dead nephilim killed in the flood became the demons that Jesus cast out.

Now this has nothing to do with getting sick.

Click to expand...

Nope---Never happened. The demons Jesus caste out were the fallen angels. You can believe whatever---
even if it isn't true.

mindlight said:

Interesting take on how Nephilim might have survived the flood. Can you name any ancient sources that support that theory?

Click to expand...

I am not sure that they did survive physically.

mindlight said:

No obviously not. But are there any sources to support the view they survived as demons

Click to expand...

It's part of ancient Jewish lore, repeated by various church fathers, that the nephilim who died in the flood were denied the grave because of their mixed parentage. Instead, they were forced to wander the earth, always hungry and thirsty, until the final judgment.

mindlight said:

Shortly before the flood Genesis and books like Enoch, that did not make it into the Protestant canon but are accepted by other Christian churches, mention an event that may have exacerbated the breakage in creation and in the human condition. Angels found ways to breed with humans and played with our DNA to produce giants and superheroes into human literature and culture and into the DNA pool. Many of these were wiped out but even after the flood there is the account in Joshua of Caleb taking on the giants of Hebron or in 1 Samuel 17 of David tackling Goliath.

Enoch is described in Genesis as one of only two men in the bible along with Elijah to never die and one who is supposed to have visited heaven and returned before he was finally taken up there. The book of Enoch did not make the Protestant canon but it is in the canon of other churches. It says it was written by Enoch but it was more probably written down after the flood having been shared from a preflood oral tradition which was not perfectly recalled, there are some big and obvious errors in it. It describes 200 angels led by Azaĺiel who were in part rebels from God and in part interested in promoting humanity at Gods expense. Basically the story echoes the account in Genesis of the Nephilim. The idea being that angels fiddled with human DNA breaking its original design and harmony further exaccerbating the effects of the fall.

So did angels break our code thus making us more vulnerable to plagues like that produced by Sars-Cov-2?

Click to expand...

You will find a lot of documentaries on youtube about the bones of giants having been found in various digs in recent history. One doc was full of newspaper clippings from respectable papers like the NY Times from the 1800 and 1900's featuring stories about these giants. At one time it seemed to be common knowledge that these giants existed. Now most consider these stories sensationalism or conspiracy theories. I've heard a lot of lectures how the early Christians believed the fallen angels did mate with the 'daughters of men' but that too is now considered myth in most circles. My understanding is Enoch is in the Ethopian Church canon but not the Catholic, Orthodox nor Protestant. I didnt read the other responses so sorry if i'm repeating what someone else said.