Which of the following actions do you support as part of a peacful protest?

Belk said:

Oh does it?

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Yes, it does. There isn't another way to look at it. If the whole force in any city is defunded or replaced, it cannot be that the officers are being evaluated individually.

Albion said:

Yes, it does. There isn't another way to look at it. If the whole force in any city is defunded or replaced, it cannot be that the officers are being evaluated individually.

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Are you going to respond to my refutation of your claims or not? Is every member of BLM a bad person?

eclipsenow said:

I'm glad some states have passed legislation that it's not only illegal to use choke holds or knee the throat, but it's also illegal for other cops to sit back and watch! They must object and take action to immediately stop such abuse!

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Thank you for taking the time.

And so the question is, how do you demonstrate about this? Sparagmos says we need to change how officers on the ground are armed. But there was no weapon used in this case . . . except a knee!! So, in any case, you need to demonstrate with an objective, possibly. This could help.

I demonstrate by praying for everyone. And now I get how >

"Wisdom is better than weapons of war" (in Ecclesiastes 9:18).

And I think of how there are many ways that people are taking action to kill people. It is not only the police. There is a culture of . . . for just one example > smoking which helps train children to think it's cool to smoke, so later so many die of cancer . . . more than rogue police officers kill. And cancer can be a much more cruel way to die. So, I would say the black lives taken because of rogue examples also matter.

There is culture which is helping to bring up killers, and people with a code of silence.

So, I would say we need to demonstrate by means of contributing our personal example.

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, God knows example works - - - if He uses our example

A good role model can help to safe a life, and help the person have a life worth living.

dogs4thewin said:

They did not directly claim that, but when I told the story about my cousin and the poster came back saying it was his gun that made them fear I was pointing out that we do not judge other professions by the actions of a few, so why judge police officers by a few that do wrong?

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If they are not claiming it why do you keep asking the question?

Albion said:

Yes, it does. There isn't another way to look at it. If the whole force in any city is defunded or replaced, it cannot be that the officers are being evaluated individually.

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"Replacing" the police force is a bark from the fringe; it's not going to be a serious conversation. What can be addressed is giving study to what social situations cause problems we expect the police to resolve and determining whether there are other means of preventing those problems from occurring in the first place.

"Defunding" the police force is a term of frustration for the only tool city councils have for doing anything to exert control of police forces, just as Congress can do almost nothing to keep a president from engaging in wars except by "defunding" the military. At least Congress was able to create the Uniform Code of Military Justice and a military court system to enforce order and discipline within the military, which it appears most city councils can't do with regard to their own police forces.

I'd rather look at "demilitarizing" the police, which means taking a new look at what mission we actually want the police to pursue in the first place and equipping them accordingly. Do we really want them to "enforce the law by any means necessary" or would is "keeping the peace" the goal we really want to set?

Maybe we want the police to have the military power to quell a riot, but what caused the riot in the first place? We have militarized not only the police equipment but also the police mindset, and that mindset leads to an extreme police action that leads to the riot...we've caused a riot by our own effort to prevent a riot.

A couple of years ago, the Plano, TX, chief of police made a statement in a press conference about "the war on police."

In Plano, TX? What war on police in Plano, TX? There's no "war on police" in Plano, TX. Plano, TX, has been voted the best place to live in America. There's nothing happening in Plano, TX.

But if he's sending his officers into the streets of Plano, TX, with the mindset that they are about to engage in a firefight every time they pull someone over for speeding, that's going to precipitate problems that would not otherwise occur.

Having said that, let me also say that in my own experience, police officers in Plano, TX, tend to be more friendly and laid back with the general public than those in some other states I've lived.

RDKirk said:

"Replacing" the police force is a bark from the fringe; it's not going to be a serious conversation.

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Maybe you are right. We can hope so. But there have been plenty of other extreme demands made by demonstrators and, guess what, it isn't long before members of Congress and Mayors are speaking out in favor of the idea.

Already we've seen members of the City Commission in Minneapolis coming out in public urging the defunding.

Disband the police? Minneapolis City Council actually considering celebrity advice

dogs4thewin said:

They did not directly claim that, but when I told the story about my cousin and the poster came back saying it was his gun that made them fear I was pointing out that we do not judge other professions by the actions of a few, so why judge police officers by a few that do wrong?

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Because we don't know whether that particular cop is one of the good apples or the bad apples, and as few as they might be, the consequences of encountering one are disastrous.

It's like taking the first shot in Russian Roulette. There are six chambers of the revolver. Only one has a round in it. The man who puts the gun to his head and pulls the trigger has a five-to-one chance of surviving.

But the consequence of that one-in-six chance of death is more than enough to keep any sensible person from ever playing Russian Roulette.

I personally stack the deck as much in my favor for survival as I can. It starts with the very vehicle I select: As plain mayonnaise as possible. Not because I like the style, but how it will be perceived by the police is definitely one of my criteria.

Back when I first joined the military nearly fifty years ago, my mother advised me, "When you're driving across the country, always have your uniform hanging in the back window so police will see it as they walk up to your car." That was wisdom. I still do something similar by having a retired military license plate and military-associated decals across the rear of my vehicle. I haven't been stopped very often in my life, but I've had police officers ask, "Are you the veteran?" "Yes, officer, I am. Here's my military ID." So I know they take note of it.

Part of the reason I have a firearm license-to-carry is because Texas police officers accept it as evidence that I've been background checked and probably not a career criminal.

In many cases (maybe most) a police officer isn't "bad" as much as he's not that experienced, not that well trained, and inexperience+low-trained+gun can still = me dead.

So I go out of my way to fill in for his lack of training. Before he gets to my car, I will have my wallet on the dash; my driver's license, auto insurance card, and license to carry in my hand, and my hands on the top of the wheel.

If he requires anything more of me, I'm going to carefully announce my intended movements in complete detail: "Officer, that item is in my glove compartment. I will need to reach over there with my right hand. Is that all right? Okay, I'm reaching now."

RDKirk said:

I'd rather look at "demilitarizing" the police, which means taking a new look at what mission we actually want the police to pursue in the first place and equipping them accordingly.

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Many people on both sides have been saying that that would be a good move. In fact, it's something that conservatives have been urging for years now--without any support from liberals, of course.

However, defunding the police department or disbanding it is a much different proposition, and this is what's being proposed now.

hislegacy said:

I think the 800 pound gorilla in the room is the ability to separate the peaceful protestors from rioters. So, please choose publicly what actions do you support as part of a peaceful protest.

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"The 800 pound gorilla" is President Trump playing fast and loose with the Constitution under the guise of establishing "law and order" to "dominate" America's streets!

This was met by the unprecedented public denunciation of the Commander-in-Chief by many prominent retired admirals and generals who, unlike this President, take their oath to uphold the Constitution seriously - especially when Trump's threats to use the US military against its own citizens!

The clearance of peaceful protesters in Lafayette Circle who were guilty of nothing more than exercising their 1st Amendment constitutional rights by unidentified federal troops armed in riot gear using tear gas, pepper spray and rubber bullets for the sole purpose of providing Trump with a "Photo op" in front of St. John's Church will be remembered as one of the most outrageous abuses of presidential power in American history!

hislegacy said:

I think the 800 pound gorilla in the room is the ability to separate the peaceful protestors from rioters. So, please choose publicly what actions do you support as part of a peaceful protest.

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I chose:

• Looting businesses
• Throwing things at police
• Burning buildings
• Graffiti and damaging property

...Because these things bring about real change, whereas peaceful protests don't.

jgarden said:

The clearance of peaceful protesters in Lafayette Circle who were guilty of nothing more than exercising their 1st Amendment constitutional rights by unidentified federal troops armed in riot gear using tear gas, pepper spray and rubber bullets for the sole purpose of providing Trump with a "Photo op" in front of St. John's Church will be remembered as one of the most outrageous abuses of presidential power in American history!

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Wow......... defiantly not the internment of the Japanese into concentration camps, ordering the slaughter of natives, or signing the legislation for slavery. No, a 'photo op' "will be remembered as one of the most outrageous abuses of presidential power in American history!"

You, have got to be kidding me....

Speedwell said:

If that's what you "learned" then you weren't paying attention. How do you even know it was liberals who were doing the damage? You don't even know that all of the peaceful protester were liberals.

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If you have been paying attention to any of the media at all? They might not call them liberals - which I don't think they are liberals - but they are putting forth the us against them theme. It stirs the pot, and racks in the cash. Yet, most people are more worried about labels. It's crazy.

Now media/politicians are trying to say people don't know the difference between peaceful protests and looters. Then they say protests don't need to be peaceful. They are all over the place.

So, if you had paid any attention to the mixed messaging the media is sending? You would know where this theory is coming from. It's just about all the networks that are doing it, and media websites as well.

Many of them don't get it at all, and yet will lecture the audience to their heart's content about how they do. Lectures from their bunkers and security teams. How nice.

The politicians are sending out mixed messages as well. One week they are complaining and lecturing about back to work protests, business that open up, people on beaches, going to church, etc - how they are going to kill people. How they are going to spread the virus, and we are all doomed - SHAME on these people, blah blah blah. A tragedy happens? They can't figure out how to protect people and property their first job in their position, and do a 1/2 hearted approach to attempt to help people. Meanwhile, their cities are burning to the ground during the evenings after the peaceful individuals have left for the most part. They report on constructions sites having stuff stolen, and then they are used that evening...and are more worried about the labels people use on these groups than the damage they causing. The cherry on top? They are out with their masks on doing all the things they lecture others NOT to do less than two weeks ago, and not feeling so 'your going to kill people' anymore.

Let's face it the places we rely on for accurate information? The failed big time. They are either cashing in, or attempting to cover their fannies to show how they are 'with it'. It's crazy town out there.

HannahT said:

If you have been paying attention to any of the media at all? They might not call them liberals - which I don't think they are liberals - but they are putting forth the us against them theme. It stirs the pot, and racks in the cash. Yet, most people are more worried about labels. It's crazy.

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I wasn't referring to the opinions put forth by "the media." I didn't mention "the media" at all. I was responding to Ignatius the Kiwi, who lumped all protesters, both peaceful and violent, together as "liberals" --by asking him how he knew they were all liberals.

Which of the following actions do you support as part of a peaceful protest?

It wasn't the protesters in Lafayette Square who assaulted the Australian film-crew, it was the unidentified federal troops that charged the crowd and started swinging their batons and shields at anyone and everyone so the President could have his "photo op" - holding a Bible upside down that he doesn't read in front of a church that he doesn't attend!

In 2020 those in positions of authority should have learned by now that their actions on the street will be videoed and documented - those traditional excuses that have long been used to deflect responsibility for the excessive use of force in the past no longer pass the "smell test!"

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

The only thing I've learnt from these 'protests' is that it's okay when liberals do it, even if it results in millions of dollars of property damage, violates social distancing, causes death and harm to people.

If some conservatives in Michigan protest with guns, that's beyond the pale and cannot be tolerated.

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Speedwell said:

I wasn't referring to the opinions put forth by "the media." I didn't mention "the media" at all. I was responding to Ignatius the Kiwi, who lumped all protesters, both peaceful and violent, together as "liberals" --by asking him how he knew they were all liberals.

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Okay. Yet, I was pointing how where this idea came from.

I find the politicans project this idea that people don't know the difference between peaceful and not peaceful...and yet their own statements show they don't. The media are doing the same thing. Their messaging says it all.

So, you seem to be hinting that the label someone uses is more harmful than the mixed messaging we are receiving from places whom would be giving some with accuracy...and their not.

I disagree. I don't believe - how you do know its all liberals approach - is more important than HOW people are made to think this way in the first place.

I believe the media and government put forth this idea that the - michigan protest with guns - group was scary. Now, when you fast forward to the present? The new idea...Heck of lot more scary than the looters, rioters and criminals we see on tv. They are the LUMPERS that told people LUMP in the first place. They conflate the protestors with the criminals all the time - constantly.

You should also be equally as concerned about WHERE this idea is coming from to begin with.

HannahT said:

Okay. Yet, I was pointing how where this idea came from.

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My experience is that the idea, although perhaps encouraged by the media and opportunistic politicians, comes originally from the Christian Right movement. They are the ones who have made "liberal" into a hateful and divisive label.

Albion said:

Many people on both sides have been saying that that would be a good move. In fact, it's something that conservatives have been urging for years now--without any support from liberals, of course.

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If people on both sides have been saying it, then it can’t simultaneously be true that there’s been no support from liberals.

Why not just focus on the fact that most Americans think it’s a good move, and try and build consensus. Not everything has to be conservative vs liberal.

com7fy8 said:

Thank you for taking the time.

And so the question is, how do you demonstrate about this? Sparagmos says we need to change how officers on the ground are armed. But there was no weapon used in this case . . . except a knee!! So, in any case, you need to demonstrate with an objective, possibly. This could help.

I demonstrate by praying for everyone. And now I get how >

"Wisdom is better than weapons of war" (in Ecclesiastes 9:18).

And I think of how there are many ways that people are taking action to kill people. It is not only the police. There is a culture of . . . for just one example > smoking which helps train children to think it's cool to smoke, so later so many die of cancer . . . more than rogue police officers kill. And cancer can be a much more cruel way to die. So, I would say the black lives taken because of rogue examples also matter.

There is culture which is helping to bring up killers, and people with a code of silence.

So, I would say we need to demonstrate by means of contributing our personal example.

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, God knows example works - - - if He uses our example

A good role model can help to safe a life, and help the person have a life worth living.

Click to expand...

Umm, I'm not sure at all what you're talking about? This thread is about the BLM protesters and what is acceptable protesting, which I then switched to asking what is acceptable policing to demonstrate what a Phurphy the opening pole is.

I'll restate that I am glad legislative changes have made it illegal (in some districts) for other cops to watch a colleague kneel on someone's neck and do nothing. To address your point about prayer - I really hope this is an answer to prayer, and helps heal America.