THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS (Luke 16) IS NOT A PARABLE

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Butch5

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My premise is already well-established. It's called Christianity.
The word Trinity isn't in the Bible either. But is a well-established premise.

No, it's an opinion. What is established is that man is a physical being that when infused with the breath of God became a living soul.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Moses tells us that God created the man from the dust of the ground. So, we know that man consists of the dust of the earth. Then Moses says that God breathed into the man the breath or spirit of life. When God did this the man "became" a living soul. There you have the creation of man. We have the dust of the earth being infused with God's breath of life. These two form a living soul. It's right there in black and white. Moses didn't say that God put anything else in the man. He didn't say that God put another spirit or breath other than the breath or spirit of life, in the man. Moses spells it out for us.
 
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Saint Steven

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No, it's an opinion. What is established is that man is a physical being that when infused with the breath of God became a living soul.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Moses tells us that God created the man from the dust of the ground. So, we know that man consists of the dust of the earth. Then Moses says that God breathed into the man the breath or spirit of life. When God did this the man "became" a living soul. There you have the creation of man. We have the dust of the earth being infused with God's breath of life. These two form a living soul. It's right there in black and white. Moses didn't say that God put anything else in the man. He didn't say that God put another spirit or breath other than the breath or spirit of life, in the man. Moses spells it out for us.
@Butch5
I'll let you have the last word. I'm done.
 
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Hillsage

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Yes, Jesus will baptize with the fire of His judgment and He does baptize his people with His Spirit. He is both Just and the Justifier of the ungodly.
When your theological wisdom concerning God, includes UNGODLINESS of those professing GOD, then you may just plumb a SPIRITUAL depth that so many Christian pontificators never seem to attain to . :idea:
 
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Der Alte

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Hillsage said:
...St. Jerome 347-420, wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).
Here is what Jerome actually said.
As for my poor works which from no merits of theirs but simply from your own kindness you say that you desire to have; I have given them to your servants to transcribe, I have seen the paper-copies made by them, and I have repeatedly ordered them to correct them by a diligent comparison with the originals. For so many are the pilgrims passing to and fro that I have been unable to read so many volumes. They have found me also troubled by a long illness from which this Lent I am slowly recovering as they are leaving me. If then you find errors or omissions which interfere with the sense, these you must impute not to me but to your own servants; they are due to the ignorance or carelessness of the copyists, who write down not what they find but what they take to be the meaning, and do but expose their own mistakes when they try to correct those of others. Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5
Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series II, Vol. VI
Once again showing conclusively that UR is based on out-of-context proof texts.
 
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Hillsage

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Perhaps @Hillsage could straighten us out on this.
You can't use "spirit" as a blanket term. More to it than that.
(from post #103)
Sorry, haven't even looked at CF for quite a while. And in checking in today I see the bottom feeders unable to chew, that which they've never even tasted. We''ve all had those same immature attitudes with our own children growing up, at the table of groceries for the body. I don't expect that to change them with my following response to you Steve. But I will make a response for you my brother that you may better know how I defend what God has revealed to me. I don't do it for those who refuse to be led of the holy spirit of Christ IN THEM or by the Holy Spirit of GOD upon them. Both, spirits from God which bear spiritual truths for those with spiritual eyes to see.

You, I and many others believe scripture to prove that man is triune.

1TH 5:23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Anyone who can count to three can stop here IMO. Couldn't be any plainer to them than it is to believe that the bible proves GOD IS A TRINITY.

But scripture also says "God IS spirit". I believe that means always was, always is, always will be. But, "In the beginning was the Word"....not the triune MAN...Jesus.

And in the beginning the Father was spirit, the Word was spirit and the Holy Spirit was spirit...The triune God WAS and now IS spirit. According to the verse above, written AFTER "the WORD became FLESH and dwelt among us" as sinful CARNAL flesh IN WHICH were both a soul and a spirit.

TRIUNE Jesus had a carnal flesh 'BODY' which had BOTH 'a' spirit and 'a' soul according to the words of Jesus in the BIBLE.

MAT 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

LUK 23:46 Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.


The only thing Jesus had over US at His birth was 'the spirit' which the Father/spirit and the Holy Spirit /spirit gave to "the Word/spirit which became flesh". And 'that spirit' which was given to and placed in Jesus was the 'Christ spirit'. And it was 'that spirit' which Jesus surrendered at the cross. And 'that' is the same 'Christ spirit' which is birthed into everyone of us who is "born again or from above" as Jesus was. And it is when we are 'born again/from above' that we first become a "brethren" to our Lord Jesus who "was made like unto His brethren in every respect." He was triune we are triune, God is triune. The only dichotmy problem today is those judging scripture incorrectly because it takes a "the spiritual man judgeth all things." And those who are 'soulish minded' fail the 'count to three' test.

I hope this helps YOU Steve. ;)
 
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Hillsage

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Here is what Jerome actually said.
As for my poor works which from no merits of theirs but simply from your own kindness you say that you desire to have; I have given them to your servants to transcribe, I have seen the paper-copies made by them, and I have repeatedly ordered them to correct them by a diligent comparison with the originals. For so many are the pilgrims passing to and fro that I have been unable to read so many volumes. They have found me also troubled by a long illness from which this Lent I am slowly recovering as they are leaving me. If then you find errors or omissions which interfere with the sense, these you must impute not to me but to your own servants; they are due to the ignorance or carelessness of the copyists, who write down not what they find but what they take to be the meaning, and do but expose their own mistakes when they try to correct those of others. Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5
Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series II, Vol. VI
Once again showing conclusively that UR is based on out-of-context proof texts.
ONCE again you prove you can justify a million different translations of, "lying pens scribe" altered BIBLES, all declared as 'THE word of God'...and yet you can still totally miss 'the spirit' of the above verbose text which has been presented in the 'proverbial abbreviation' of my signature line quote. :sigh:

That's why I don't respond to you Der ALTE. I've never hit IGNORE on anyone here that deserves that option, more than you IMO. But having never done it to anyone else...even you are still given permission from me to rant on to me. But don't expect another response by me. :wave:
 
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ClementofA

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Here is what Jerome actually said.
As for my poor works which from no merits of theirs but simply from your own kindness you say that you desire to have; I have given them to your servants to transcribe, I have seen the paper-copies made by them, and I have repeatedly ordered them to correct them by a diligent comparison with the originals. For so many are the pilgrims passing to and fro that I have been unable to read so many volumes. They have found me also troubled by a long illness from which this Lent I am slowly recovering as they are leaving me. If then you find errors or omissions which interfere with the sense, these you must impute not to me but to your own servants; they are due to the ignorance or carelessness of the copyists, who write down not what they find but what they take to be the meaning, and do but expose their own mistakes when they try to correct those of others. Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5
Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series II, Vol. VI
Once again showing conclusively that UR is based on out-of-context proof texts.

Once again you post nonsense, a logical fallacy, as you have proven nothing of the sort.
 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
Once again you post nonsense, a logical fallacy, as you have proven nothing of the sort.
You quite evidently do not know what a logical fallacy is. What I conclusively showed that the highlighted part of this quote from Jerome has nothing to do with the Bible then or now but the "poor works" of Jerome..
As for my poor works which from no merits of theirs but simply from your own kindness you say that you desire to have; I have given them to your servants to transcribe, I have seen the paper-copies made by them, and I have repeatedly ordered them to correct them by a diligent comparison with the originals. For so many are the pilgrims passing to and fro that I have been unable to read so many volumes. They have found me also troubled by a long illness from which this Lent I am slowly recovering as they are leaving me. If then you find errors or omissions which interfere with the sense, these you must impute not to me but to your own servants; they are due to the ignorance or carelessness of the copyists, who write down not what they find but what they take to be the meaning, and do but expose their own mistakes when they try to correct those of others. Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5
Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series II, Vol. VI
As I said once again showing conclusively that UR is based on out-of-context proof texts.
 
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ClementofA

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You quite evidently do not know what a logical fallacy is. What I conclusively showed that the highlighted part of this quote from Jerome has nothing to do with the Bible then or now but the "poor works" of Jerome..
As for my poor works which from no merits of theirs but simply from your own kindness you say that you desire to have; I have given them to your servants to transcribe, I have seen the paper-copies made by them, and I have repeatedly ordered them to correct them by a diligent comparison with the originals. For so many are the pilgrims passing to and fro that I have been unable to read so many volumes. They have found me also troubled by a long illness from which this Lent I am slowly recovering as they are leaving me. If then you find errors or omissions which interfere with the sense, these you must impute not to me but to your own servants; they are due to the ignorance or carelessness of the copyists, who write down not what they find but what they take to be the meaning, and do but expose their own mistakes when they try to correct those of others. Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5
Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series II, Vol. VI
As I said once again showing conclusively that UR is based on out-of-context proof texts.

You showed nothing about UR since that is not even the subject of your post.

Furthermore, even if you could show an individual occurence of an "out-of-context proof text", such as verse ZZ, that doesn't mean UR verses A through Z are "out-of-context" or that "UR is based on out-of-context proof texts."

You generalize from one example what cannot be proven from one sample verse, let alone a sample which is not even in Scripture. Therefore your argument fails. This is just simple logic even many a high schooler would understand, let alone those with higher education training in university level logic courses such as i have had.
 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
...You generalize from one example what cannot be proven from one sample verse, let alone a sample which is not even in Scripture. Therefore your argument fails. This is just simple logic even many a high schooler would understand, let alone those with higher education training in university level logic courses such as i have had.
Ah but it is not just one verse I have pointed out several out-of-context UR proof texts. I think I can safely say that hardly a day goes by that I don't point out some kind of grammatical error. A post does not have to be about UR for one to point out an error.
 
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ClementofA

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Ah but it is not just one verse I have pointed out several out-of-context UR proof texts.

I could say much the same thing about alleged "proof texts" by endless punishment advocates. That doesn't prove the doctrine is false. Often the issue is they simply refuse to believe what is stated in Scripture & dismiss what God has plainly said with the argument that the context is talking about something else. They are committing the error of - using context as a pretext to not believe the plain text - (of what is written).
 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
I could say much the same thing about alleged "proof texts" by endless punishment advocates. That doesn't prove the doctrine is false. Often the issue is they simply refuse to believe what is stated in Scripture & dismiss what God has plainly said with the argument that the context is talking about something else. They are committing the error of - using context as a pretext to not believe the plain text - (of what is written).
Rather that go back and forth "Yes you did.""No, I didn't." Go back to my post [#165]<-link. above and show me that I was wrong when I said Jerome was quoted out-of-context. Just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" does not prove I'm wrong.
Before that you quoted 1 Corinthians 3:15 out-of-context then twisting the scripture tried to argue that it "really meant" all mankind. Unsaved people don't build on the foundation of Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:12
 
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ClementofA

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Before that you quoted 1 Corinthians 3:15 out-of-context then twisting the scripture tried to argue that it "really meant" all mankind. Unsaved people don't build on the foundation of Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:12

I already responded to your latest post on that. Still waiting for your reply:

What utter, complete rubbish! Another logical fallacy argument from silence "what Paul didn't say." Any/every false heterodox religious group in the world does this same thing. A piece of a verse here and and piece of a verse there they can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to. White isn't really white it is black. Up is not really up it is down etc. Nothing means what it says it is all figurative.

You go on that pointless rant after i said Paul didn't say what you said, etc, namely:

"Sinners are not building anything, of any material, on the foundation of Jesus Christ!"

Now apply your own comments above to that remark of yours for which you provided no support for & just dreamt up out of lala land. What book, chapter and verse is that from, Der Alte's book of imaginations chapter 66, verse 66?

.....Please explain to me how the Corinthians, who first heard/read the Corinthian letters would have understood them? Would they have understood the distorted nonsense you wrote or would they have understood it exactly as it is written?

They should have read the immediate context:

Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

.....I don't see anywhere Paul, or any other NT writer, furnished their intended audiences with a set of instructions how to correctly interpret all the supposed figurative language hidden in the epistles. It is not likely that any average believer had a copy of any NT letter or book. They certainly didn't have some kind of electronic gadget where they could instantly call up any verse(s) they wanted to to "help" them "correctly" understand the Corinthian letters or any other book. So they could not read all the supposed hidden references such as Jn 1:9 etc.

Compare

Jn.1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

to the following scriptures

Rom.1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

Rom.2:9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew, then for the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, first for the Jew, then for the Greek. 11 For God does not show favoritism.12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them. 16 This will come to pass on that day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Acts 17:30
Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all men everywhere to repent.

Luke 24:47
and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem.

Acts 17:23
For as I walked around and examined your objects of worship, I even found an altar with the inscription: To an unknown God. Therefore what you worship as something unknown, I now proclaim to you.

Acts 14:16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. 17Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

Acts 10:35
but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right.

Matthew 25:36
I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.'

James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

etc
 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
They should have read the immediate context:
Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:
1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:
1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The same ol' UR smoke and mirrors.
This a favorite verse UR-ites like to quote out-of-context trying make it say all mankind will be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
This entire passage is addressed to a certain group; “laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building,” vs. 9, “who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ” vs. 10, NOT all mankind.
"no man,""any man,""every man," from vs. 9 to 17 refers to that same group. Vs. 15 does not suddenly refer to all mankind.

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, [foundation of Christ vs. 12] he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
All mankind are not the temple of God and God does not dwell in them until/unless they are saved
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
We can plainly see that vs. 15 does not state or imply that all mankind will be saved no matter what because vs. 17 says that any man who defiles the temple will be destroyed NOT saved. The bodies of sinners are not the temple of God until they are saved and God dwells in them.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
I could say much the same thing about alleged "proof texts" by endless punishment advocates. That doesn't prove the doctrine is false. Often the issue is they simply refuse to believe what is stated in Scripture & dismiss what God has plainly said with the argument that the context is talking about something else. They are committing the error of - using context as a pretext to not believe the plain text - (of what is written).
You do err mon Frere. A "proof text" is called a "proof text" because it is devoid of context. For example.
Matthew 27:5 Judas went and hanged himself Luke 10:37 Jesus said go thou and do likewise.
There is an old maxim "A text without a context is a pretext."


= = = = = = = = = = =
Proverbs 29:7-8 [AKA Covid-19]
7 The righteous taketh knowledge of the cause of the poor; the wicked understandeth not knowledge.
8 Scornful men set a city in a blaze; but wise men turn away wrath.



 
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Major1

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Thank you, I cast nets from the shore of the Arabah, where a river of fresh crystal water coming from the temple pours in, by my side the prophets, apostles and saints. For where the river flows, everything shall live.

Why not join us? It's a great spot, the oasis of En Gedi.

Mumbo Jumbo or is it Jumbo Mumbo?????
 
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Nothing there about anything spiritual. They're metaphors. As I've said a million times you haven't established your premise.

Hello Butch. Another day, another way but the same debate.

The "premise" of the Rich man and Lazarus is to set forth beforehand as an introduction to the Truth about the conditions of The Lake of Fire which is exactly what Jesus did.

It is NOT a parable however, IF it was, why would anyone think that it is not true and faithful given from the mouth of God Himself?

Search all the other parables and tell us if you find one that DOES NOT say that "Jesus said in a parable". In Luke 16, the word parable in never used.

Should not the Holy Spirit, having foreseen the alleged “misusage” of the passage in the coming centuries, made every attempt in the context to indicate that it was symbolic and nonliteral? You can search Luke chapter 16 for the rest of eternity, my dear readers, and never see where Jesus clearly indicated verses 19 through 31 as figurative (a parable).

Also, Jesus uses real names, proper names of people. IF it was just a made up story, then God would be lieing and you and I would not be saved.
 
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Butch5

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Hello Butch. Another day, another way but the same debate.

The "premise" of the Rich man and Lazarus is to set forth beforehand as an introduction to the Truth about the conditions of The Lake of Fire which is exactly what Jesus did.

It is NOT a parable however, IF it was, why would anyone think that it is not true and faithful given from the mouth of God Himself?

Search all the other parables and tell us if you find one that DOES NOT say that "Jesus said in a parable". In Luke 16, the word parable in never used.

Should not the Holy Spirit, having foreseen the alleged “misusage” of the passage in the coming centuries, made every attempt in the context to indicate that it was symbolic and nonliteral? You can search Luke chapter 16 for the rest of eternity, my dear readers, and never see where Jesus clearly indicated verses 19 through 31 as figurative (a parable).

Also, Jesus uses real names, proper names of people. IF it was just a made up story, then God would be lieing and you and I would not be saved.

No it's not. The Rich Man wasn't in the Lake of Fire. He was in Hades.

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
(Lk. 15:11-13 KJV)

This one is right before the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man and it starts out the very same way.

And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. (Lk. 16:1-2 KJV)

Did you think maybe Jesus didn't say it wasn't literal because He figured people would know that dead people are dead. Other than the few passages of Scripture that you're misunderstanding, what evidence leads you to believe that dead people are anything other than dead?

Using a name doesn't make it literal. As I've said, the name is important to the parable.

You're starting from the premise that man can live apart from the body. You can't prove that from Scripture. All one can do is infer it. However, as has been pointed out that premise contradicts other passages of Scripture. If you're interpretation of a passage conflicts with other passages you've got yourself and error somewhere.
 
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No it's not. The Rich Man wasn't in the Lake of Fire. He was in Hades.
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
(Lk. 15:11-13 KJV)
This one is right before the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man and it starts out the very same way.

And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. (Lk. 16:1-2 KJV)

Did you think maybe Jesus didn't say it wasn't literal because He figured people would know that dead people are dead. Other than the few passages of Scripture that you're misunderstanding, what evidence leads you to believe that dead people are anything other than dead?
Using a name doesn't make it literal. As I've said, the name is important to the parable.
You're starting from the premise that man can live apart from the body. You can't prove that from Scripture. All one can do is infer it. However, as has been pointed out that premise contradicts other passages of Scripture. If you're interpretation of a passage conflicts with other passages you've got yourself and error somewhere.
First off Lazarus and the rich guy conflicts with all the unquestioned parables in that a specific historical person is named and there is no reference to the kingdom of heaven. If Abraham was not in the place Jesus named and did not say the words Jesus quoted Jesus was lying.
"Parable" comes from the Greek word "parabolos'' which means to throw/place beside. Something unknown is compared to something known.
Lazarus and the rich man might be some other literary device but it is not a parable.
Earlier in this thread I quoted four ECF all of whom considered Lazarus/rich man to be factual.
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself, is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word םשל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

…..The Jews considered this passage to be factual.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
“When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

 
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