Did You Really Not Know That Christ Must Be Obeyed? --Yes, You!

Phil W

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No. I'm sorry, but you misunderstand this too: the doctrine is one, it is the Doctrine of Christ.
Is James referring to the Mosaic Law when he says "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17) ?
Was James "Judaizing"?
Was Paul referring to good deeds when he said..."Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal 2:16)

 
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Blood Bought 1953

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Faith will not be living if the person is simply disciplined and attempts to perform what he believes in the energy of his flesh. Muslims do not have great faith, but religiously will commit suicide in the name of what they believe.

Obedience to what one is told to believe means nothing unless the person has confessed all known sins (1 John 1:9) and is being filled with the Spirit who should guide that believer into having the spiritual power do it

I must disagree with this......rather strongly I am afraid....
Paul’s Gospel .....Given to Him by Jesus..... mentions no such thing as “ confession of sins” in order to be saved.....I believe Paul would declare this to be “ adding to the Gospel”, which , regardless of the good intentions, causes the one that believes it to be “ Fallen From Grace”.
Paul says and Jesus Promises That If we simply believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the grave.....we will be saved....
Please explain how “ confessing of sins” is NOT an addition to the Gospel Of Grace. Please tell me how one “ falls from Grace”, according to your understanding.....thanks
 
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Religiot

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Is James referring to the Mosaic Law when he says "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17) ?
Was James "Judaizing"?
Was Paul referring to good deeds when he said..."Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal 2:16)
Phil, you've missed it. I'm sorry. I've done what I can within this thread to illustrate what the scriptures plainly say about obedience, but you've missed it.

I cannot cause you to see the error of your way, only God can do that.

My posts on your present question are quite extensive, and highly conclusive, so to continue to dialogue with you on this, would be equal to denying all that I have previously said.

Please review my posts, if you truly care about my presentation of the scriptures, otherwise, I cannot continue to dialogue with you about this any longer.

I'm sorry.
 
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GenemZ

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genez, you've misunderstood me virtually every time, and have only partially quoted me, almost every time.

I don't think I can have a fruitful conversation with you.
I am not addressing all you said. That is why I will not use the full quote.

What you missed was that I was addressing what presumed faith is vs living faith. Both involve obedience. I was categorizing two different ways of manifesting obedience. One is religious. The other is spiritual.

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers
will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the
kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers
must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
John 4:23-24​


There is a natural concept of what constitutes "obedience" which would nullify what Jesus spoke about concerning what the Father is seeking in His believers. For, anyone with a religious streak could try to fulfill what you expressed in the energy of the flesh, and assume they have faith.

In a living faith? Faith can cause our actions to be manifested automatically without consciously thinking Scripture, because real faith produces a transformed mind that begins to express itself in a right way that conforms to God's Word.. faith's transformation is not by the letter of the Word. Its not Law.

Faith has the transforming power to bring one to do a right thing while the believer may not be thinking a certain passage as they do. Later on they may learn that what they did was in conformity with what the Scriptures teach. The believer who matures must come to the point where his life's expression comes automatically from his new nature that has already been formed by truth learned in the past.
 
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GenemZ

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I must disagree with this......rather strongly I am afraid....
Paul’s Gospel .....Given to Him by Jesus..... mentions no such thing as “ confession of sins” in order to be saved.....I believe Paul would declare this to be “ adding to the Gospel”, which , regardless of the good intentions, causes the one that believes it to be “ Fallen From Grace”.

Confess sins in order to be saved? :scratch: Not what I was saying.


I was not talking about entering into salvation. I was talking about how someone who is already saved is to stay walking in the Spirit in the event they might sin. How to regain being empowered by grace after having sinned, as to have divine power restored and operational in him. "The filling of the Spirit."


Paul says and Jesus Promises That If we simply believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the grave.....we will be saved....
Please explain how “ confessing of sins” is NOT an addition to the Gospel Of Grace. Please tell me how one “ falls from Grace”, according to your understanding.....thanks

I was not describing how to be saved. Apples and oranges.

I was describing how believers who are already saved are to keep their spiritual momentum going. For if they sin? It would shut down the filling of the Spirit as long as 1 John 1:9 is not implemented.

What 1 John 1:9 tells the one (who is already saved) is how to regain the filling of the Spirit if they should sin. That's what I was wishing to explain.

Sorry for the confusion.
 
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Phil W

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Phil, you've missed it. I'm sorry. I've done what I can within this thread to illustrate what the scriptures plainly say about obedience, but you've missed it.

I cannot cause you to see the error of your way, only God can do that.

My posts on your present question are quite extensive, and highly conclusive, so to continue to dialogue with you on this, would be equal to denying all that I have previously said.

Please review my posts, if you truly care about my presentation of the scriptures, otherwise, I cannot continue to dialogue with you about this any longer.

I'm sorry.
As per the OP, obedience is necessary for salvation.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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Confess sins in order to be saved? :scratch: Not what I was saying.


I was not talking about entering into salvation. I was talking about how someone who is already saved is to stay walking in the Spirit in the event they might sin. How to regain being empowered by grace after having sinned, as to have divine power restored and operational in him. "The filling of the Spirit."




I was not describing how to be saved. Apples and oranges.

I was describing how believers who are already saved are to keep their spiritual momentum going. For if they sin? It would shut down the filling of the Spirit as long as 1 John 1:9 is not implemented.

What 1 John 1:9 tells the one (who is already saved) is how to regain the filling of the Spirit if they should sin. That's what I was wishing to explain.

Sorry for the confusion.

....and I am sorry for any misunderstanding by me.....that post did not “ Sound” like you from the outset ......I am happy to be in error! God Bless.....
 
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Religiot

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I am not addressing all you said. That is why I will not use the full quote.

What you missed was that I was addressing what presumed faith is vs living faith. Both involve obedience. I was categorizing two different ways of manifesting obedience. One is religious. The other is spiritual.

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers
will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the
kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers
must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
John 4:23-24​


There is a natural concept of what constitutes "obedience" which would nullify what Jesus spoke about concerning what the Father is seeking in His believers. For, anyone with a religious streak could try to fulfill what you expressed in the energy of the flesh, and assume they have faith.

In a living faith? Faith can cause our actions to be manifested automatically without consciously thinking Scripture, because real faith produces a transformed mind that begins to express itself in a right way that conforms to God's Word.. faith's transformation is not by the letter of the Word. Its not Law.

Faith has the transforming power to bring one to do a right thing while the believer may not be thinking a certain passage as they do. Later on they may learn that what they did was in conformity with what the Scriptures teach. The believer who matures must come to the point where his life's expression comes automatically from his new nature that has already been formed by truth learned in the past.
Religion is good, genez, worthless religion is bad.

Faith is good, dead faith is bad.

Works are good, dead works are bad.

That's all I've been trying to convey to you.
 
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GenemZ

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Religion is good, genez, worthless religion is bad.

Faith is good, dead faith is bad.

Works are good, dead works are bad.

That's all I've been trying to convey to you.


Fair enough. If that's all you wish to convey. So be it.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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As per the OP, obedience is necessary for salvation.


Yes.....the Obedience to the Gospel.....Obey it by Believing it......If one TRULY Believes it, they will REST in it.....That Rest will spur Love.....that Love will spur the Obedience That God desires....Resting in the Gospel Of Pure Grace plus Nothing.....totally secure in the Finished Work Of The Cross ....Knowing That I can never be damned for any reason ....total freedom , yet I willingly choose to be a slave.....Christianity sure is wild, isn’t it?
 
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Religiot

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Yes.....the Obedience to the Gospel.....Obey it by Believing it......If one TRULY Believes it, they will REST in it.....That Rest will spur Love.....that Love will spur the Obedience That God desires....Resting in the Gospel Of Pure Grace plus Nothing.....totally secure in the Finished Work Of The Cross ....Knowing That I can never be damned for any reason ....total freedom , yet I willingly choose to be a slave.....Christianity sure is wild, isn’t it?
Brother, we were once bound to death, now we are freed from death and bound to Christ: this freedom is not freedom to sin, but freedom from death.

--And the rest that we must enter requires labor, for the flesh wars against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh.

Our labor is simply to keep the faith, for Satan is constantly trying to steal from us what God freely gave.

To follow Christ, means to enter war: war with the world, and war with ourselves.

The peace that passes understanding, is the peace that God is for us, and that we are no longer against Him; so come hell or high-water, Christians march on, knowing that their labor is not in vain.
 
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Have you ever broken any of the 613 commandments?

When looking at the Old Law one can categorize the Old Testament Mosaic Law (the 613 Laws of Moses) into a threefold division:
  1. Moral Laws (Any Law pertaining to doing good as a part of nature).
  2. Ceremonial Laws (Laws pertaining to ceremonies or rituals).
  3. Civil Laws (Laws dealing with civil matters; Which includes Laws on carrying out justice).
Even before the written Law of Moses: We can see that there were Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.), and Ceremonial Laws (like: animal sacrifices).

God's moral laws came into existence for man and would forever exist for him after the Fall of Adam and Eve (after they received the knowledge of good and evil). A Moral Law is any law telling you to do good without a specific law telling you that such a thing is so (See Romans 2:14). These moral laws existed before the Law of Moses.

In the New Covenant (or New Testament) these Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are repeated from the 613 laws within the Law of Moses and they still are in effect (i.e. They have been carried over into the New Testament). However, the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more (contractually speaking). Ceremonial Laws or commands: Things like the commands on circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Saturday Sabbath, dietary etc. are no longer binding under the New Covenant. This is because the written Law given to Israel is no longer in effect (as a whole). How so?

Here are a list of verses showing us the Old Law is no more:

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).​

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).​

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).​

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).​

In conclusion:

You sort of have to look at the Old Covenant (Old Testament) as one contract, and the New Covenant (New Testament) as another contract. It's kind of like a contract when you buy a house. If you did not like certain things in the contract, you could ask them to make some changes in the contract. If they agreed to the changes, you would then go by the new contract, and the old contract for the house would be discarded. There may be some similar things between the old contract, and the new contract, but you stick with the new contract in your dealing with buying the house. Meaning: This is why we seek to follow the New Covenant (New Testament) primarily even though there are certain laws that have carried over from the Old Covenant (Old Testament). We are clearly not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. We follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.
 
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Be honest .....how ya doin’ with that warning?

Well, in my experience in talking online on various different Christian forums over the years: Making it personal is a standard tactic by those who hold to a sin and still be saved type belief. In other words, if one's belief cannot be supported with Scripture, then the discussion is made about the individual instead (Thereby showing the Scriptural weakness of one's own argument).

Besides, it is written,

5 "Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6).​

Also, the forum rules encourage so as not to cause heated debate that we are not to address the poster or the individual, but we are to stick to the topic with Scripture.

In addition, would you believe me if I told you about my life? Well, trust needs to be earned. I confide in those who believe the Word of God as I do. Furthermore, it does not matter if most of the whole world was not living correctly. God's Word is still the standard and the standard is not my life alone. God destroyed an entire world with a global flood except for eight people. We walk by faith and not by sight. I am not above God's Word in what it says anymore than you are. If the Bible tells me to be ye holy, that is something I have to accept (Whether I like it or not). Personally, I believe you have your priorities wrong. You appear to be allowing outside experience to rule your judgment instead of seeking to obey God's Word. For you automatically assume I am doing the wrong thing when you do not know me or my life. Do you honestly think Enoch lusted after women all the time, and yet the Lord took him whereby he did not see death? How about the 144,000?

The problem with your belief is that you are not accepting the plain words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 5:28-30. Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Jesus says that we not only have to receive Him, but we have to receive His words, too. For Jesus says in John chapter 12,

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” (John 12:48).

So Jesus says here that if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day. I am encouraging you brother to accept the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30 so as to help you for your own benefit.

You said:
Jesus said that to the Self- Righteous Pharisees Of His day and it applies just as well to the Legalists of THiS day!

Jesus did not have a problem with the Pharisees trying to obey God's laws. He had a problem with them not obeying them. For Jesus said they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy.

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” (Matthew 23:23).

“But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” (Luke 11:42).
 
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Legalists are trying to justify themselves before A Holy God with their Performance in regard to keeping the Law.

If one is not for obedience to God (Legal matters), then they are for disobedience. Do you love Jesus in the way that Jesus says? Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Paul said if any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). In fact, here is a Short List on How Sanctification is a part of Salvation after we are saved by God's grace:

  1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

  2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

  3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

  4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).

  5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).

  6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).

  7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).

  8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).

  9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

  10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).

  11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).

  12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).
 
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GenemZ

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Brother, we were once bound to death, now we are freed from death and bound to Christ: this freedom is not freedom to sin, but freedom from death.

We were once bound to death (SPIRITUAL DEATH). No longer we are. That is good news! Move on and find out what we now can know!

Sin we should learn is simple to deal with according to 1 John 1:9! Its elementary teaching that should be taught to baby Christians. Adult Christians should not having to think about it any more than thinking about tying their shoelaces.

I can remember as a child how when I first learned how to tie my shoelaces, I needed to concentrate and think about doing the procedure... "this goes over here, and that goes under there, and pull."

But, as an adult Christian? We should not be obsessing about such things that God designed for us to have become like a second nature in performing.

But you? With your "obedience" thing? Want to stop everyone and inspect their shoelaces. Its annoying to those who are mature enough to have mastered the basics. But, you? Seem to think that obedience is the end of what we are to become in Christ. Its baby stuff! Obedience is learning to look both ways before crossing the street. Learning to clean up your room after you wake up.

The frustrating part is this. There so much to learn of Christ by accepting teachings of the ENTIRE Word of God. We should be constantly growing in knowledge of God's Word for our entire life on earth. Not the same things over and over again. When its the same thing over and over again? The Word becomes in itself as a tradition and ritual. No longer alive and constantly growing as we all should be doing.

Many teachers can not teach to reach maturity. That is because they were self promoted to where they do not belong. Or, some are lazy and never learned good study skills as they needed. Or, if they have found good teachings from someone who can teach? They refuse to pass along those teachings from those who can teach that way. Instead?

To make a niche for them self? They create gimmicks to concentrate on. Limiting areas pertaining to only certain doctrines. Doctrines that they will present as being the "end all" of Christianity. Like for example? Using the word.."Obedience." Which when left undefined? Means nothing. "Obedience to Christ?" Can mean a million things when what it means is never understood and defined.

That is how some here come across when they act so obsessed about "obedience" all the time. Its nothing new. The Catholic church demands "obedience." Many legalistic churches do the same thing in their own way.
It becomes a "catch word" for a man's gimmicks that he always justifies with the same few Scriptures. And, in that way? Nobody grows beyond the first grade in Christ. Its dead religion. (Revelation 3:1)


For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith;
as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
Rom 1:17​

Faith comes by hearing (learning) the Word of God!

Faith understood leads to more faith. "From faith to faith." The more we learn of Bible knowledge, the more we can learn even more knowledge... That is what we are to do in Obedience! Jesus constantly taught the Word! Constantly. No pet teaching. Taught what ever part of the Bible applied to their given situation! That is how He overcame the world. In obedience to his commands we should be constantly expanding and gaining in knowledge of God's Word.

God wants us to have that kind of teachings?

Then God will provide a few (James 3:1) teachers who are capable and able to teach in an ongoing and ever growing way. These pastors are OBEDIENT to their calling. Obedient to Christ!

But? When one makes obedience the issue? Without knowing what it should mean? Its emptiness and legalism. We need grace and Truth.

Keep in mind. When Jesus told his disciples to be obedient to His commands? He was sending out TEACHERS. Its not the same as for those who sit in the pews.

grace and peace...
 
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Well, in my experience in talking online on various different Christian forums over the years: Making it personal is a standard tactic by those who hold to a sin and still be saved type belief. In other words, if one's belief cannot be supported with Scripture, then the discussion is made about the individual instead (Thereby showing the Scriptural weakness of one's own argument).

Besides, it is written,

5 "Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6).​

Also, the forum rules encourage so as not to cause heated debate that we are not to address the poster or the individual, but we are to stick to the topic with Scripture.

In addition, would you believe me if I told you about my life? Well, trust needs to be earned. I confide in those who believe the Word of God as I do. Furthermore, it does not matter if most of the whole world was not living correctly. God's Word is still the standard and the standard is not my life alone. God destroyed an entire world with a global flood except for eight people. We walk by faith and not by sight. I am not above God's Word in what it says anymore than you are. If the Bible tells me to be ye holy, that is something I have to accept (Whether I like it or not). Personally, I believe you have your priorities wrong. You appear to be allowing outside experience to rule your judgment instead of seeking to obey God's Word. For you automatically assume I am doing the wrong thing when you do not know me or my life. Do you honestly think Enoch lusted after women all the time, and yet the Lord took him whereby he did not see death? How about the 144,000?

The problem with your belief is that you are not accepting the plain words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 5:28-30. Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Jesus says that we not only have to receive Him, but we have to receive His words, too. For Jesus says in John chapter 12,

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” (John 12:48).

So Jesus says here that if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day. I am encouraging you brother to accept the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30 so as to help you for your own benefit.



Jesus did not have a problem with the Pharisees trying to obey God's laws. He had a problem with them not obeying them. For Jesus said they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy.

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” (Matthew 23:23).

“But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” (Luke 11:42).


Jesus did not have a problem with the Pharisees trying to obey God's laws. He had a problem with them not obeying them. For Jesus said they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy.

The main problem with the Pharisees was their “ SELF-Righteousness”.....
Just as Paul pointed out in Romans 10:2-3.... “ They have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge....they are ignorant of God’s Righteousness and go about trying to establish their OWN Righteousness—- they have not submitted themselves to the Righteousness Of God...Christ is The End Of The Law for Righteousness for everyone that Believes......”
Self Righteousness condemned the Pharisees then, it condemns ModernDay Judaizers today.....they are easy to recognize—-They are the ones that say.... “ Jesus Saves —- B U T “. .......
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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Well, in my experience in talking online on various different Christian forums over the years: Making it personal is a standard tactic by those who hold to a sin and still be saved type belief. In other words, if one's belief cannot be supported with Scripture, then the discussion is made about the individual instead (Thereby showing the Scriptural weakness of one's own argument).

Besides, it is written,

5 "Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6).​

Also, the forum rules encourage so as not to cause heated debate that we are not to address the poster or the individual, but we are to stick to the topic with Scripture.

In addition, would you believe me if I told you about my life? Well, trust needs to be earned. I confide in those who believe the Word of God as I do. Furthermore, it does not matter if most of the whole world was not living correctly. God's Word is still the standard and the standard is not my life alone. God destroyed an entire world with a global flood except for eight people. We walk by faith and not by sight. I am not above God's Word in what it says anymore than you are. If the Bible tells me to be ye holy, that is something I have to accept (Whether I like it or not). Personally, I believe you have your priorities wrong. You appear to be allowing outside experience to rule your judgment instead of seeking to obey God's Word. For you automatically assume I am doing the wrong thing when you do not know me or my life. Do you honestly think Enoch lusted after women all the time, and yet the Lord took him whereby he did not see death? How about the 144,000?

The problem with your belief is that you are not accepting the plain words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 5:28-30. Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Jesus says that we not only have to receive Him, but we have to receive His words, too. For Jesus says in John chapter 12,

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” (John 12:48).

So Jesus says here that if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day. I am encouraging you brother to accept the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30 so as to help you for your own benefit.



Jesus did not have a problem with the Pharisees trying to obey God's laws. He had a problem with them not obeying them. For Jesus said they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy.

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” (Matthew 23:23).

“But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” (Luke 11:42).

———————————————

Well, in my experience in talking online on various different Christian forums over the years: Making it personal is a standard tactic by those who hold to a sin and still be saved type belief. In other words, if one's belief cannot be supported with Scripture, then the discussion is made about the individual instead (Thereby showing the Scriptural weakness of one's own argument).

Your “ experience” is bogus this time. All I did was ask you a simple question.....you turned it into something about “ me”, thereby evading the question you did NOT want to answer .....Your “Non-Answer” is in itself an Answer.....want to try again to give an answer? I did not know that it was “against policy” to ask a question in a debate....I’m not buying it.....sorry....
 
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Yes.....the Obedience to the Gospel.....
How does one "obey" a bit of good news?
I think you may be assigning the label "gospel" to what we do because of that good news.

Obey it by Believing it......
What's to obey?
The gospel doesn't tell us to do anything.
We either believe it or we don't.
Our future actions, obedience, are predicated on our belief.

If one TRULY Believes it, they will REST in it.....That Rest will spur Love.....that Love will spur the Obedience That God desires....
That I can agree with.

Resting in the Gospel Of Pure Grace plus Nothing.....totally secure in the Finished Work Of The Cross ....Knowing That I can never be damned for any reason ....total freedom , yet I willingly choose to be a slave.....Christianity sure is wild, isn’t it?
Can our belief be illustrated by the love "spurred" by our "rest in the gospel"?
How about our unbelief?
Does a lack of love illustrate unbelief?[/QUOTE]
 
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Well, in my experience in talking online on various different Christian forums over the years: Making it personal is a standard tactic by those who hold to a sin and still be saved type belief. In other words, if one's belief cannot be supported with Scripture, then the discussion is made about the individual instead (Thereby showing the Scriptural weakness of one's own argument).

If one is not for obedience to God (Legal matters), then they are for disobedience. Do you love Jesus in the way that Jesus says? Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Paul said if any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). In fact, here is a Short List on How Sanctification is a part of Salvation after we are saved by God's grace:

  1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

  2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

  3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

  4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).

  5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).

  6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).

  7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).

  8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).

  9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

  10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).

  11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).

  12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).



Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

And what are those Commandment? After the Cross? In the present Age of Grace?
1 John 3:23. There are only Two...
#1.....Believe

#2.....Love

Concentrate on those two and everything else will take care of itself ......
 
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