The fifth seal great tribulation martyrs

Douggg · Jun 6, 2020

To them who claim the events of the first sixth seals have happened already.

Revelation 7:13-14 proves that notion wrong.

The great multitude in Revelation 7:9-12 are them seen in Revelation 6 when the fifth seal is opened.

In Revelation 7:13-14. The elder answered the question that everyone is wondering - who is this great multitude....?

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I [*John] said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.

And he [*the elder] said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

________________________________________________________________

How did the elder (and John) know that they had come out of great tribulation?

It is because John and the elder in Revelation 6 both saw the red, the black, and the pale horses riders of the great tribulation. And they both had seen the great tribulation martyrs when the fifth seal was removed. Not all of them, for they were told to wait until their number was complete.

*my comment

keras · Jun 7, 2020

Douggg said:
To them who claim the events of the first sixth seals have happened already.

Revelation 7:13-14 proves that notion wrong.

The great multitude in Revelation 7:9-12 are them seen in Revelation 6 when the fifth seal is opened.

In Revelation 7:13-14. The elder answered the question that everyone is wondering - who is this great multitude....?

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I [*John] said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.

And he [*the elder] said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

________________________________________________________________

How did the elder (and John) know that they had come out of great tribulation?

It is because John and the elder in Revelation 6 both saw the red, the black, and the pale horses riders of the great tribulation. And they both had seen the great tribulation martyrs when the fifth seal was removed. Not all of them, for they were told to wait until their number was complete.

*my comment

Opinionated attempt to shuffle the Revelation sequence and have people living in heaven, all totally without scriptural support.

You fail because the Fifth Seal was opened when Jesus ascended to heaven and He opened the first five Seals. Proved by all the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters we have had since then.
Obviously the Fifth Seal is open; all the millions of Christian martyrs, starting with Stephen, have their souls kept under the heavenly Altar.

The Great Tribulation is the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, ending with Armageddon.

The vast multitude that John sees in Rev 7:9-14, are living Christians. They are on earth, waving earthly palm branches as they praise the Lord for protecting them during the terrible fires, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis of His Day of fiery wrath.
The REBible says; they are those who have passed through the great ordeal.....
The ordeal of the Sixth Seal worldwide devastation.

Revelation 7:1-17 never mentions heaven as the location for any of this prophecy. It sets the scene on earth in the first 3 verses. Rev 7:15-17 refers to Eternity, when God will come to dwell with mankind and there will be no more Death or sorrow. Revelation 21:1-7

Douggg · Jun 7, 2020

keras said:
Opinionated attempt to shuffle the Revelation sequence and have people living in heaven, all totally without scriptural support.

The contents of Revelation 7 and Revelation 6 are scripture.

keras said:
You fail because the Fifth Seal was opened when Jesus ascended to heaven and He opened the first five Seals. Proved by all the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters we have had since then.
Obviously the Fifth Seal is open; all the millions of Christian martyrs, starting with Stephen, have their souls kept under the heavenly Altar.

No, my opening post proves your interpretations fail.

The red horse, then the black horse, then the pale horse are in sequence. Meaning getting progressively worse. Not sporadic across 2000 years of history as you are interpreting.

keras said:
The Great Tribulation is the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, ending with Armageddon.

The 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls are in the Great Tribulation. But not the sole events of the Great Tribulation, like demended worship of the image of the beast; the requirement of 666 number of the beast's name, name of the beast, and mark of the beast to buy and sell; the Jews fleeing into the wilderness, etc.

keras said:
The vast multitude that John sees in Rev 7:9-14, are living Christians. They are on earth, waving earthly palm branches as they praise the Lord for protecting them during the terrible fires, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis of His Day of fiery wrath.

No, no fiery wrath in the answer of the elder, nor John. Nor are the elder nor John on earth.

keras said:
The REBible says; they are those who have passed through the great ordeal.....
The ordeal of the Sixth Seal worldwide devastation.

The REB is not recognized nor accepted worldwide like the KJV.

keras said:
Revelation 7:1-17 never mentions heaven as the location for any of this prophecy. It sets the scene on earth in the first 3 verses. Rev 7:15-17 refers to Eternity, when God will come to dwell with mankind and there will be no more Death or sorrow. Revelation 21:1-7

You mean Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't mention earth. Both the elder and John are in heaven. As the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts in Revelation 7:11. And one of those elders spoke to John - both in heaven.

The great multitude came out of great tribulation - meaning they left the great tribulation taking place on earth.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

The throne of God is in heaven - which means your interpretation of them being on earth contradicts what is in the text of the bible.

keras said:
Revelation 7:1-17 never mentions heaven as the location for any of this prophecy. It sets the scene on earth in the first 3 verses. Rev 7:15-17 refers to Eternity, when God will come to dwell with mankind and there will be no more Death or sorrow. Revelation 21:1-7

Revelation 7:15 DOES DIRECTLY INDICATE THAT THE GREAT MULTITUDE ARE IN HEAVEN.

Plus, you have ignored why both the elder and John knew that the great multitude had come out of great tribulation.

tranquil · Jun 7, 2020

If you believe in a whisked away rapture, why weren't the 5th seal martyrs whisked away raptured to safety? It says that they were killed. (Doug will say that these are 'tribulation saints' - and then I will say that that is a totally made up term with zero validity and ask him for the Bible verse that shows this idea of a 'tribulation saint'.)

Revelation 2:22
Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works,

At the 7th Seal it shows people 'coming out of the great tribulation' (Revelation 7:14).

Why invent a whisked away rapture into the Seals where it is not even mentioned? Especially when it is mentioned at the 7th Seal that there are people coming out of the great tribulation.

If you want to say that there is a 'whisked away' rapture, the 7th Seal would be where I could see someone saying that that occurs.

Douggg · Jun 7, 2020

tranquil said:
If you believe in a whisked away rapture, why weren't the 5th seal martyrs whisked away raptured to safety? It says that they were killed. (Doug will say that these are 'tribulation saints' - and then I will say that that is a totally made up term with zero validity and ask him for the Bible verse that shows this idea of a 'tribulation saint'.)

What I say is they are the "great tribulation saints". Yes, it is a made up term, not an in the bible term, to describe who they are. But it is a valid term to describe who they are.

tranquil said:
Why invent a whisked away rapture into the Seals where it is not even mentioned? Especially when it is mentioned at the 7th Seal that there are people coming out of the great tribulation.

If you want to say that there is a 'whisked away' rapture, the 7th Seal would be where I could see someone saying that that occurs.

Are you thinking I am claiming that them in Revelation7, the great multitude are there as being raptured ?

If so, let me clarify.... I DO NOT think that the great multitude represents raptured believers.

Nor have I put the rapture in the seals. Others may, but I do not.

keras · Jun 7, 2020

Douggg said:
The contents of Revelation 7 and Revelation 6 are scripture.

That you mis-interpret and mis-apply. To your disgrace.

Douggg said:
The red horse, then the black horse, then the pale horse are in sequence. Meaning getting progressively worse. Not sporadic across 2000 years of history as you are interpreting.

They represent all the bad things that humankind has experienced.
It will be very different after Jesus returns, these things will not happen in the Millennium. Excepting near the end, when there will be a final rebellion.

Douggg said:
The 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls are in the Great Tribulation. But not the sole events of the Great Tribulation, like demended worship of the image of the beast; the requirement of 666 number of the beast's name, name of the beast, and mark of the beast to buy and sell; the Jews fleeing into the wilderness, etc.

Of course. We all read the Book, no need to rewrite it for us.
Quote Douggg; No, no fiery wrath in the answer of the elder, nor John. Nor are the elder nor John on earth.

The fire of the Sixth Seal event is prophesied in 70 Bible verses; Isaiah 66:5, Malachi 4:1

Douggg said:
The REB is not recognized nor accepted worldwide like the KJV.

I would say the Satan has a lot to do with this. He likes the KJV, for its archaic and mis- translated version.
The REB is the one used by Wycliffe Translators as their reference Bible.

Douggg said:
The throne of God is in heaven - which means your interpretation of them being on earth contradicts what is in the text of the bible.

Where is heaven Douggg?

Douggg said:
Revelation 7:15 DOES DIRECTLY INDICATE THAT THE GREAT MULTITUDE ARE IN HEAVEN.

I already showed that Revelation 7:15-17 refer to Eternity, after the Millennium.
We never go to heaven, God and therefore heaven come to us. Revelation 21:1-7

tranquil said:
If you want to say that there is a 'whisked away' rapture, the 7th Seal would be where I could see someone saying that that occurs.

The Seventh Seal, Revelation 8:1, is merely a time gap. The period between the Sixth Seal and when Jesus Returns. About a half hour in heaven = about 20 years earth time.
There is no removal to heaven for anyone, except for the 2 Witnesses.

tranquil · Jun 7, 2020

Douggg said:
What I say is they are the "great tribulation saints". Yes, it is a made up term, not an in the bible term, to describe who they are. But it is a valid term to describe who they are.

Are you thinking I am claiming that them in Revelation7, the great multitude are there as being raptured ?

If so, let me clarify.... I DO NOT think that the great multitude represents raptured believers.

Nor have I put the rapture in the seals. Others may, but I do not.

I know that you don't claim that the great multitude are the 'raptured'.

Isn't the whole point of the invention of the idea of the 'whisked away' rapture due to the fact that people can't envision being saved from the wrath of God in any other way than being magically whisked away?

If you don't put the 'rapture' in the Seals, then you are by definition putting it after the start of the 'great tribulation' - and the whole point of being 'raptured' is that this protects one from the wrath of God. And the wrath of God is tied to worshiping the abomination.

Unless you are putting the 'rapture' even before the 1st Seal? In which case, I will be bowing out of this thread as there is no point in arguing about something that doesn't exist in any manner.

tranquil · Jun 7, 2020

keras said:
The Seventh Seal, Revelation 8:1, is merely a time gap. The period between the Sixth Seal and when Jesus Returns. About a half hour in heaven = about 20 years earth time.
There is no removal to heaven for anyone, except for the 2 Witnesses.

Huh?

The 6th Seal wrath of God is tied to the worship of the abomination. Is the antichrist going to rule for 20 years? Why would the 2 witnesses be 'raptured' when the kingdom of heaven has just started at the 7th Trumpet?

Douggg · Jun 7, 2020

tranquil said:
I know that you don't claim that the great multitude are the 'raptured'.

Isn't the whole point of the invention of the idea of the 'whisked away' rapture due to the fact that people can't envision being saved from the wrath of God in any other way than being magically whisked away?

If you don't put the 'rapture' in the Seals, then you are by definition putting it after the start of the 'great tribulation' - and the whole point of being 'raptured' is that this protects one from the wrath of God. And the wrath of God is tied to worshiping the abomination.

Unless you are putting the 'rapture' even before the 1st Seal? In which case, I will be bowing out of this thread as there is no point in arguing about something that doesn't exist in any manner.

Here is my position on the timing of the rapture.

keras · Jun 7, 2020

tranquil said:
Huh?

The 6th Seal wrath of God is tied to the worship of the abomination. Is the antichrist going to rule for 20 years? Why would the 2 witnesses be 'raptured' when the kingdom of heaven has just started at the 7th Trumpet?

The Sixth Seal is the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath. It will happen when the Islamic peoples attack Israel. Psalms 83, Malachi 3:11-12, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +
The Abomination is the Anti-Christ sitting in the Temple, which doesn't happen until the mid point of the final 7 years.
The 2 Witnesses are taken to heaven near the end of the GT; just before Jesus Returns, the last 42 months. Revelation 11:2

Douggg said:
Here is my position on the timing of the rapture.

You should be ashamed of promoting a theory that has no Bible support.

tranquil · Jun 8, 2020

Douggg said:
Here is my position on the timing of the rapture.

View attachment 278522

Why don't you try pointing to where the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls are? Then we can see if things are lining up or not.

tranquil · Jun 8, 2020

keras said:
The Sixth Seal is the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath. It will happen when the Islamic peoples attack Israel. Psalms 83, Malachi 3:11-12, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +
The Abomination is the Anti-Christ sitting in the Temple, which doesn't happen until the mid point of the final 7 years.
The 2 Witnesses are taken to heaven near the end of the GT; just before Jesus Returns, the last 42 months. Revelation 11:2

You should be ashamed of promoting a theory that has no Bible support.

But the Day of the Lord's wrath doesn't arrive until the man of sin is revealed (via the abomination)

2 Thessalonians 2

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

the 'day' is not going to arrive before the man of sin is revealed (as in, 20ish years before, as you seem to be saying).

Douggg · Jun 8, 2020

tranquil said:
Why don't you try pointing to where the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls are? Then we can see if things are lining up or not.

Rapture before the trumpets and bowls. Before the second seal. Maybe after the first seal, maybe before.

Rapture is noted on my chart as being before the ToD act.

Douggg · Jun 8, 2020

tranquil said:
But the Day of the Lord's wrath doesn't arrive until the man of sin is revealed (via the abomination)

(via the ~~abomination~~)

(via the transgression)

keras · Jun 8, 2020

tranquil said:
But the Day of the Lord's wrath doesn't arrive until the man of sin is revealed (via the abomination)

2 Thessalonians 2

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

the 'day' is not going to arrive before the man of sin is revealed (as in, 20ish years before, as you seem to be saying).

The Day of the Lord that Paul is referring to; is the Return of Jesus, His coming when we are gathered to Him, Matthew 24:30-31, for His Millennium reign.
The next prophesied event will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Proved by how Jesus stopped reading Isaiah 61:1-2, before- and the Day of the vengeance of our God.

The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, will happen in the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

Douggg · Jun 8, 2020

keras said:
The Day of the Lord that Paul is referring to; is the Return of Jesus, His coming when we are gathered to Him, Matthew 24:30-31, for His Millennium reign.

The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, will happen in the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.
.

You have a conflict in your two statements. And a conflict of when Jesus gathers the believers to Him.

Essentially you are saying....

The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, will happen in the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.....(the Day of the Lord) the Return of Jesus, His coming when we are gathered to Him, Matthew 24:30-31, for His Millennium reign.... when the man of sin is revealed. .......Really, Keras ?

That's the conflict ! The Day of the Lord begins when the man of sin is revealed, not at Jesus's return.

You have the Day of the Lord beginning at Jesus's Return, and the beginning of the millennium. Which makes no sense that the man of sin be revealed then.

_______________________________________________________

The Day of the Lord in 2Thessalonians2 is triggered by act of the Antichrist in 2Thessalonians2:4, revealing himself as the man of sin. The Day of the Lord begins before the Great Tribulation begins. The Great Tribulation (containing the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls) in Matthew 24:15-30 takes place before Matthew 24:31.

1. The Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation, 2Thessalonians 2:4, revealing himself as the man of sin triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

2. Then after the revealed man of sin is killed and comes back alive, the false prophet has the image made and placed in the temple, the abomination of desolation, triggering the beginning of the Great Tribulation, in Matthew 24:15-30

ToD triggers the Day of the Lord.
AoD triggers the Great Tribulation.

_____________________________________________________

The Rapture takes place before the Day of the Lord begins. Which puts your interpretation of the Rapture as being Matthew 24:31 wrong.

The beginning of the Day of the Lord is on my chart, as being when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation 2Thessalonians2:4.

Douggg · Jun 8, 2020

keras said:
The Abomination is the Anti-Christ sitting in the Temple, which doesn't happen until the mid point of the final 7 years.

No, that is the transgression of desolation. The abomination of desolation is a thing, something setup in the temple.

keras · Jun 8, 2020

Reading all the Prophesies, makes it clear that there are 2 Days of the Lord.
The first is the terrible Day when He comes in His fiery wrath, to destroy the godless. Isaiah 66:15-17, + over 100 other scriptures that vividly describe this Day.

When Jesus Returns, it will be the great Day of Almighty God, Revelation 16:14 and He simply disposes of the attacking armies by the Sword of His Word.

Thinking they all happen in one event is serious error and where your charts go wrong.

Douggg said:
No, that is the transgression of desolation. The abomination of desolation is a thing, something setup in the temple.

There is just the one transgression or abomination of the new Temple. It is when the leader of the World Govt, conquers the holy people and enters the Temple, declaring himself to be god. 2 Thess 2:4, Daniel 7:25, 11:31, Matthew 24:15

keras · Jun 8, 2020

Douggg said:
You have the Day of the Lord beginning at Jesus's Return, and the beginning of the millennium. Which makes no sense that the man of sin be revealed then.

I'll try again.
What Paul was telling the 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, was that the Day Jesus will Return cannot come UNTIL the man of sin has been revealed....
We know from many scriptures that he will be revealed when he declares himself to be god in the new Temple, exactly 1260 days before Jesus Returns.

Douggg · Jun 8, 2020

keras said:
Thinking they all happen in one event is serious error and where your charts go wrong.

My chart is right. There is one Day of the Lord, not Days of the Lord.

There are many events that take place during that one Day of the Lord which lasts for eternity.

The fifth seal great tribulation martyrs

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Newbie

Newbie

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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Newbie

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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