The True Church? I'm Disillusioned.

Light of the East said:

I can do dat!!!

Click to expand...

great! and we all SHOULD do that.

ArmyMatt said:

great! and we all SHOULD do that.

Click to expand...

Sorry for being the pessimistic one but how can this possible when the Bible mentions condemned people such as Judas and the Antichrist and says the way is narrow?

Not David said:

Sorry for being the pessimistic one but how can this possible when the Bible mentions condemned people such as Judas and the Antichrist and says the way is narrow?

Click to expand...

because we ain't there yet. do I think all will be saved? no, for thr reasons you said (and more). but it's not outside of our tradition to hope that all are and pray for it.

Not David said:

Sorry for being the pessimistic one but how can this possible when the Bible mentions condemned people such as Judas and the Antichrist and says the way is narrow?

Click to expand...

Hope.

As Father said.

Rayanne said:

There are no good answers to these questions when I've asked (I'm open to hearing them if there are). I'm sure many people can relate to my disillusionment. If there are no good answers to these questions, then I am not sure where to go from here.

Click to expand...

Where to go from here? With God?

*For we are so preciously loved by God that we cannot even comprehend it. No created being can ever know how much and how sweetly and tenderly God loves them. It is only with the help of his grace that we are able to persevere in spiritual contemplation with endless wonder at his high, surpassing, immeasurable love which our Lord in his goodness has for us.* - Julian of Norwich-

“The only way to find the meaning and purpose of your life is to find it in a mystery . . . the mystery of Him . . . and to make that mystery the cause of everything you do . . . and the reason . . . for everything you are.” -Jonathan Cahn-

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley

ClementofA said:

Where to go from here? With God?

*For we are so preciously loved by God that we cannot even comprehend it. No created being can ever know how much and how sweetly and tenderly God loves them. It is only with the help of his grace that we are able to persevere in spiritual contemplation with endless wonder at his high, surpassing, immeasurable love which our Lord in his goodness has for us.* - Julian of Norwich-

“The only way to find the meaning and purpose of your life is to find it in a mystery . . . the mystery of Him . . . and to make that mystery the cause of everything you do . . . and the reason . . . for everything you are.” -Jonathan Cahn-

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley

Click to expand...

Universalism is being a fan of Universal Studios?

ArmyMatt said:

as far as universalism, it's been condemned at the 5th Ecumenical council. it also makes no sense when Christ says it would have been better for Judas to never have been born.

Click to expand...

It makes perfect sense:

Der Alter said:

• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

Click to expand...

In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Der Alter said:

• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

Click to expand...

Better not to have been born. Not to have never existed.

Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had not been born. He did not say it would have been better if Judas had never been conceived or existed. The latter opposes universalism, the former does not necessarily do so. One who dies in the womb without being born has existed. To not be born & die before being born means that one existed.

It would be better to be (1) concieved (& therefore to exist) & not be born than (2) to be born & live a wicked life (e.g. Judas Iscariot), because the former is in better standing with God than the latter (compare, for example, Lk.12:47-48). Judas will suffer the wrath of God of which the child in utero, who was never born, is not deserving. Therefore, for Judas, it would have been better if he had never been born, but died in his mother's womb. But, though he will suffer the wrath of God, this does not rule out the possibility of his ultimate salvation. Therefore Mt.26:24 fails as a proof text against him being saved.

Der Alter said:

• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

Click to expand...

None of those verses refer to a "fate worse than...nonexistence". And a "fate worse than death" need not be endless tortures & is nowhere near being similar to endless tortures. Compare:

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.


***********************************************



I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

Light of the East said:

As for the poll attached to the OP .... yes, one can be Orthodox and a Universalist. St. Isaac of Syria was. So were a number of other saints.

Click to expand...

According to the admission of a rabid universalism opposing so-called "father" in the EO, a Mr. Farley, "many" in the EO are universalists.

BNR32FAN said:

I think Luke 12:10 and Matthew 7:21 are also excellent points against universalism.

Click to expand...

Two lame points.

Matthew 7:21-23
could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?
Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony
If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Spirit blasphemy in harmony with universal salvation:
Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin
Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?
http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...ves-holy-spirit-blasphemers.html#post53259200
Question about eternal damnation
God loves those who are blaspheming the Holy Spirit - Theology Online
the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...
Universalism in harmony with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...
The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism
The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

LoveGodsWord said:

None of the bible translations agree with UNIVERSALISM

Click to expand...

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.


*****************************************************************


I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

BNR32FAN said:

I think the biggest danger of it is that it gives people a potentially false sense of security that they will ultimately receive eternal life no matter if they accept Christ and honor God or not. This could very well be a deception much like when satan deceived Eve when he said to her “surely you will not die”. Universalism sounds very similar to this statement.

Click to expand...

The danger of preaching a monster God - infinitely worse than Hitler Satan & Stalin combined - is it has kept many millions from accepting Christ & turned many churchgoers away from Him.

What if you’re wrong about hell?

Do you think the teaching of universalism will keep any of the elect from being saved from the lake of fire? If so, why, for Scripture says:

Jer.29:13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God, or I speak from Myself. (Jn.7:17).

So are you wasting your time here opposing universalism? Shouldn't you instead be sharing the gospel with the unsaved to save them from being tortured in fire forever by your God? Yet here you are chatting away the day with Christians.

TheLostCoin said:

Our Lord and Savior Himself said that "broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter by it,"

Click to expand...

Here:

XYZ said:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 7:13

Click to expand...

1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it (Mt.7:13-14)
2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

Both are right.

Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it". This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Young's Literal Translation
how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

BTW the book of Matthew is the first book of the NT, Revelation being the last. In the very first chapter of the first book of the NT, God declares the end from the beginning:

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isa.46:10)


"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

"In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

"Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

Note the word "many", not "few":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All. Those will He "justify" (Isa.53:11).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

TheLostCoin said:

"Depart, you accursed, into the eternal fire, prepared for the devils and his angels,"

Click to expand...

Compare verse 46 which has the same Greek word mistranslated "eternal" above.

These translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the universal salvation verses i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096

Hart adds:

"...how greatly formulations that seem to imply universal salvation outnumber those that appear to threaten an ultimate damnation for the wicked. Still, none of that surprised me; it merely roused me from my complacent assumption that, simply by virtue of having read the text in Greek for many years, I had a natural feel for its tone."

Christ's Rabble | Commonweal Magazine

Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?

XYZ said:

It is repeating a line of argument that, so far, you have not even come close to successfully refuting.

Click to expand...

You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

XYZ said:

It is not an assumption that Matthew 25:46 employs a parallel, but a plain fact.

Click to expand...

Interpretation 1 above accepts the parallel of "eonian destinies". So the parallel there is not denied. Likewise interpretation 2 above acknowledging parallel perpetual destinies. But that the word perpetual can vary according to its subject.

XYZ said:

Let us look at this verse again:

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Click to expand...

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

TheLostCoin said:

Augustine certainly had problems, but he's a Saint.

Click to expand...

According to one source Augustine believed re the pains of endless hell that those "of children dying unbaptized will be 'most mild of all'; but for all the chastisement will be eternal" (Early Christian Doctrines, J.N.D. Kelly, p.485).

Full text of "103911481-J-N-D-Kelly-Early-Christian-Doctrines.pdf (PDFy mirror)"

Another source states:

"16. In countering Pelagius, Augustine was led to state that infants who die without Baptism are consigned to hell.[24] "

The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised

Perhaps there are others who say otherwise.

Carpet bombing alert! Air raid!

ArmyMatt said:

for one, aionion meaning "age lasting" doesn't help your argument. because the age after the Last Judgment has no end.

Click to expand...

The Greek word aionion, from which we get the English word aeonian (=eonian) means of or pertaining to an eon/s or age/s. It does not have to mean lasting throughout an eon or age. It could refer to a part of the eon or age. Secondly many scripture passages speak of multiple future eons (Eph.2:7; Lk.1:33; Rev.11:15; etc), not just one future age. Even after the judgement in Revelation 21 it speaks of multiple future ages, not just one (Rev.22:5):

Young's Literal Translation
and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign -- to the ages of the ages.

But perhaps some church traditions differ from what the Scriptures say, eh.

ArmyMatt said:

two, yes, the last enemy that is destroyed is death. which means that eternal light and life torment those who desire darkness and death.

Click to expand...

Eternal torments. How lovely.

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:26 does not speak of abolishing a "penalty" of death, but abolishing death. That God may become all "IN ALL" (v.26), even all who were "in Adam (v.22) & shall be "in Christ" (v.22).

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The phrase "in Christ" (1 Cor.15:22) means salvation in Scripture.

ClementofA said:

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Click to expand...

The human soul is completely free to reject God's love endlessly. It is hatred of God which places them in torment, it isn't God's doing. God has in fact done everything possible to bring about salvation to all mankind, but no one can be forced to love God.

ArmyMatt said:

correct, that's why there are no doors on the pearly gates.

Click to expand...

Rev.21:25 Its gates will never be closed during the day (and there will be no night there).

https://www.amazon.com/Her-Gates-Will-Never-Shut/dp/1606088823

By Bradley Jersak, EO author

https://www.amazon.com/Patristic-Universalism-Alternative-Traditional-Judgment/dp/1517547113

prodromos said:

The human soul is completely free to reject God's love endlessly.

Click to expand...

Even those in heaven, like the saints & angels & angels of heaven who fell?

So do you also think those in "hell" will be offered an endless number of free choices to accept God's love?

Do you think it is mathematically likely anyone would reject God forever?

If you think they will be condemned to endless tortures on the day of judgement, has Love Omnipotent already seen that they will reject Him an infinite number of times through all eternity?

If so, why did He allow them to be created in the first place, knowing this would be their fate? Somewhat lacking in wisdom is He not?

And why not annihilate them to save them from infinite tortures? To force them to be tortured infinitely would be sadistic, infinitely worse than Hitler, Satan and Stalin combined.

prodromos said:

It is hatred of God which places them in torment, it isn't God's doing. God has in fact done everything possible to bring about salvation to all mankind, but no one can be forced to love God.

Click to expand...

Did you read this thread or at least the OP:

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Mathematically probable.... Well, if human beings were mere numbers, rather than creatures with free wills, then no, not probable.

Honestly, I felt like you did when I was 19, when I left the Baptists. You described the end run of their theology. I think you’re assuming a number of things Orthodox hold that we don’t hold.