Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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ClementofA said:
I've already refuted the claims in that post & my refutations have never been refuted:
AFIK you have never refuted any of my posts. Quoting 1 or more biased UR "scholars" giving a different opinion is NOT a refutation.
Quoting different translations/definitions/versions is NOT a refutation.
I can't "refute" something that has never been done.
I have given you different examples of how words are defined by context.
Here again one of those examples. In "Hangul," my wife's native language, is a word which looks like an English capital "E" and a capital "H" 태.
This word is pronounced "ta" as in "tack." When someone curls all the fingers into the palm of their hand they form a "태"
We can see this word in
태권도, Tae kwon do. "Fist foot way" Oops I just did something you said can't be done.
Just for fun my first name written in Hangul 리차드

 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
If it's the "most decisive way of negating something in the future", why didn't God use it to say something like "unbelievers will never (ou me) be saved? You shot your own doctrine in the foot with that one.
Powerful negatives never used of the damnation of the lost.
I rest my case.
You have no case to rest! Logical fallacy, argument from silence.
Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:
Wrong! Jesus used the word "aionios" 28 times and never uses it to refer to something mundane which cannot be "eternal."
Paul used "aionios" 21 times and used it to refer to "world" only three times.
Heb-Jude "aionios" 16 times nothing mundane.
Rev "aionios" 1 time eternal.
"Aion" occurs 102 times in the NT it is translated "world" 40 times.
 
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ClementofA

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AFIK you have never refuted any of my posts. Quoting 1 or more biased UR "scholars" giving a different opinion is NOT a refutation.

Whenever you claim something as a proven definition, like aionion is defined as "eternal" in verse X because of reason Y & i show how Y is not necessarily true, that refutes your argument as a proof by reducing it to merely one of a number of different theories re the meaning of aionion in the given context. So all you are left with is a theory, not a proof. The argument as a proof was refuted.

For example:

Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever.

That proof fails as a proof. IOW your proof is refuted as a proof. As shown by the following facts.

It says "all generations" OF the "age of the ages". Not "age of the ages" is equal in duration to the duration of "all generations" of the future.

The Greek (see literal versions below) says the "all generations" are OF the "age of the ages". Not "all generations" of all time & eternity. So the "generations" are directly related to the "age of the ages". If the "age is limited then the "all generations" are referring to "all generations" within that finite "age".

The "all generations" is limited to the "age of the ages". If that "age" is finite, then the "all generations" are restricted to the period within that finite age & are not necessarily eternal. Therefore your argument fails to prove what you claim it does.

If that "age" refers to a finite period such as a future age or millennium & ending by the time the new heavens & earth are created, then it is finite. The apostle Paul spoke of multiple future ages (Eph.2:7) as do many other passages (e.g. Rev.22:5). So there is no need to assume the "age" referred to in Eph.3:21 is endless. Therefore, once again, your conclusion "doesn't fly" & "holds no water". IOW it fails as a proven conclusion. It is refuted as a proof, being reduced to no more than a mere theory amongst at least one other theory i've stated above.

Several more accurate, honest & literal translations read:

Young's Literal Translation
to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

Berean Literal Bible
to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

Darby Bible Translation
to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages. Amen).

Ephesians 3:21 Interlinear: to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.
 
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ClementofA

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You have no case to rest! Logical fallacy, argument from silence.

You've repeatedly parroted that, yet here's what you've never answered

Logical fallacy. Argument from silence.

"if God was a believer in endless punishment....If Jude believed in endless punishment,..." logical fallacy. Argument from silence also trying to second guess God and Jude what they would have said under certain circumstances.

"In sum, the argument from silence, like all historical arguments, is always conjectural. But it is not, as some claim, a fallacy. It is the correct default inference from silence. That inference can be strengthened by relevant evidence of a positive kind, or by the continued silence of further evidence." https://www.umass.edu/wsp/history/outline/silence.html

"Howell and Prevenier state that arguments from silence face the difficulty that a historian can not just assume that an author would have recorded the fact in question; for if the fact did not seem important enough to an author it would have been excluded.
Argumentum ex silentio | Project Gutenberg Self-Publishing - eBooks | Read eBooks online

Clearly the above statement re "arguments from silence" does not apply to my argument. For it is clear that if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments He would have thought it "important enough" to include many times as a warning in the 27 books of the inspired NT Scriptures. That He did not do so proves that He rejected such a view. And the proof that He didn't include it is that the words (& expressions) which would have expressed it unambiguously were not used of eschatological punishment.

In this case it is a powerful argument: the superior words to express endlessness - IOW not the aion & aionion that Love Omnipotent usually employs - are never used by Him of eschatological punishment.

Further re "arguments from silence": "David Henige states that, although risky, such arguments can at times shed light on historical events.[5]" There are "Convincing applications" of the "arguments from silence":Argumentum ex silentio | Project Gutenberg Self-Publishing - eBooks | Read eBooks online


Furthermore, my argument has provided "evidence of absence":

"Evidence of absence is evidence of any kind that suggests something is missing or that it does not exist." Null Points: Absence of evidence and evidence of absence.

In this case the absence of the teaching of endless punishment in the New Testament.

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Could most modern translations be in error?

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?
 
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Major1

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The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/view/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…



*****************************************************************


I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

NO!

"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” (1 Timothy 1:15)

Romans 5:9...……..
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him".

1 Thess. 1:10...…..
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

1 Thess. 5:9...…….
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

YOU do read the Bible......don't you my brother????
 
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ClementofA

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Romans 5:9...……..
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him".

1 Thess. 1:10...…..
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

1 Thess. 5:9...…….
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

YOU do read the Bible......don't you my brother????

In those verses i see "saved from wrath". Not saved from endless tortures & unending wrath. In fact the wrath is limited to a "day" as in "day of wrath", not "unending wrath":

Rom.2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".

We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.


*************************************************************


*****************************************************************


I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.
 
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Major1

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In those verses i see "saved from wrath". Not saved from endless tortures & unending wrath. In fact the wrath is limited to a "day" as in "day of wrath", not "unending wrath":

Rom.2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".

We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.


*************************************************************


*****************************************************************


I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

YOU do not see because YOU do not want to see.

Just like you will not see it in 2 Thess. 2:10-12.

"and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

There will not be anyone saved who have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ by the time "that Wicked" - The Antichrist is revealed. There will be judgment in the form of a God-sent strong delusion.
 
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Major1

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In those verses i see "saved from wrath". Not saved from endless tortures & unending wrath. In fact the wrath is limited to a "day" as in "day of wrath", not "unending wrath":

Rom.2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".

We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.


*************************************************************


*****************************************************************


I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

LOL...…….YOU have destroyed nothing.

You have rejected the Word of God but you can not destroy it.
 
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Major1

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You big guy must learn the foundation for nouns and adjectives in Grammer 101.

The noun is the foundation upon which the adjective is based. The adjective does not hold greater force than the noun upon which it is rooted. NOT!

The root for aionios (the adjective), is rooted in the ages (the noun.)

Ages are NOT everlasting in the wildest stretch. All ages end, followed by additional ages, until time shall be no more.

You said...…...
"All ages end, followed by additional ages, until time shall be no more."

Despite the efforts of men to override the clear teaching of the Bible, the Bible is clear about the eternal nature of the punishment of the wicked. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25:46). It is easy to see that Life is the same in duration as is the Punishment of the wicked. If one is temporary, so is the other. If the punishment of those held within the lake of fire is temporary, heaven is also temporary.

The New Testament use of the words eternal and everlasting makes it clear what they mean. It is "everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46). The fire is "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41). There will be "eternal damnation" for some (Mark 3:29). For emphasis, consider how other verses use these words:

1. God is everlasting. "According to the commandment of the everlasting God" (ref. Romans 16:26). Does everlasting mean unending or temporary? Will God cease to exist?

2. The Holy Spirit is eternal. "Who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God" (ref. Hebrews 9:14). Is the Holy Spirit temporary? When the lake of fire gives up her dead, will He go out of existence?

3. Redemption is eternal. "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us" (Hebrews 9:12) Is Christ's work of eternal redemption completed or was it for just a brief time?

4. Salvation is eternal. "He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" ( ref. Hebrews 5:9). Will salvation also be temporary as well?

5. The kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. The faithful will be in "the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:11). Will the end to the suffrage of the wicked in the lake of fire also earmark the end of the kingdom of God?

The same words in both Greek and English are used to describe the future punishment of the wicked that are used to describe God, the Spirit, salvation, and the kingdom. "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41).

Therefore, the fallacy with even arguing how long the duration of "aion" and "aionios" as to mean an age or duration of time less than forever and ever and to mean something other than time everlasting to support the doctrine of universal reconciliation is that then the same argument can be applied to heaven, God, and the everlasting life of the saints. In this the universalist is not consistent with their argument of what these words mean. Further, any objections to aion and aionius being rendered as "for ever" in English and not specifically covered here will be based on such scanty factual evidence or philosophical reasoning as to be made untenable to be the basis of one's belief in universalism. I am confident in the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment for the wicked as was S. Lewis Johnson, who wrote: "It is doubful that there is a doctrine in the Bible easier to than that of eternal punishment (cf. Matthew 25:46)."

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works" (Titus 2:11-14).The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"
 
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FineLinen

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You said...…...
"All ages end, followed by additional ages, until time shall be no more."

Despite the efforts of men to override the clear teaching of the Bible, the Bible is clear about the eternal nature of the punishment of the wicked. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25:46). It is easy to see that Life is the same in duration as is the Punishment of the wicked. If one is temporary, so is the other. If the punishment of those held within the lake of fire is temporary, heaven is also temporary.

The New Testament use of the words eternal and everlasting makes it clear what they mean. It is "everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46). The fire is "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41). There will be "eternal damnation" for some (Mark 3:29). For emphasis, consider how other verses use these words:

The "clear teaching" of "everlasting punishment" has five (5) qualifications for it. Can you disclose for us peeps what they are?

You will also find, (perhaps when the cows come home), that aionios zoe and aionios kolasis are not time words in themselves.

God’s eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact.

The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect. -Dr. Marvin Vincent-
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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ClementofA said:
Whenever you claim something as a proven definition, like aionion is defined as "eternal" in verse X because of reason Y & i show how Y is not necessarily true, that refutes your argument as a proof by reducing it to merely one of a number of different theories re the meaning of aionion in the given context. So all you are left with is a theory, not a proof. The argument as a proof was refuted.
Wrong! Biased UR objection. Just saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" is NOT evidence of anything.
That proof fails as a proof. IOW your proof is refuted as a proof. As shown by the following facts.
It says "all generations" OF the "age of the ages". Not "age of the ages" is equal in duration to the duration of "all generations" of the future.
Is your argument that "the church" and/or "all generations" cease to exist at some point? Where does scripture say that "the church" and/or "all generations" cease to exist? Here from the literal EOB version.
Ephesians 3:21
21 ‘to him be the glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, now and forever and unto ages of ages. Amen.

 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
The "clear teaching" of "everlasting punishment" has five (5) qualifications for it. Can you disclose for us peeps what they are?
Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, footnote pg. 180

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).
= = = = = = = = = =
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = = = = =
KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aioniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In the EOB Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, uses αιωνιου/aioniou],” in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone has doubts about the EOB version I suggest they read the 22 page preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..In these 9 verses, Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal” or “aion/”eternity.
Jesus used the word “aionios” 29 times, He never used “aionios” to refer to something mundane which is not/cannot be eternal.

[1]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse Jesus contrasts “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, which is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[2]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
ou mé signifies in nowise, by no means, never, see note below. In this verse Jesus pairs both “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” And “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[3]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
[4] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In these two verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[5]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless at some point, Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[6]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[7]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios with “shall never thirst.” Aionios cannot mean an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[8]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[9]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna] see death."
● The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
Word Studies in the New Testament, Marvin Vincent.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.
 
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ClementofA

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Wrong! Biased UR objection. Just saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" is NOT evidence of anything.


It's logical, but perhaps you have no training in the subject. As I said:

Whenever you claim something as a proven definition, like aionion is defined as "eternal" in verse X because of reason Y & i show how Y is not necessarily true, that refutes your argument as a proof by reducing it to merely one of a number of different theories re the meaning of aionion in the given context. So all you are left with is a theory, not a proof. The argument as a proof was refuted

Is your argument that "the church" and/or "all generations" cease to exist at some point? Where does scripture say that "the church" and/or "all generations" cease to exist? Here from the literal EOB version.
Ephesians 3:21
21 ‘to him be the glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, now and forever and unto ages of ages. Amen.

My argument was clearly stated as follows. What didn't you understand, if you even read it:

AFIK you have never refuted any of my posts. Quoting 1 or more biased UR "scholars" giving a different opinion is NOT a refutation.

Whenever you claim something as a proven definition, like aionion is defined as "eternal" in verse X because of reason Y & i show how Y is not necessarily true, that refutes your argument as a proof by reducing it to merely one of a number of different theories re the meaning of aionion in the given context. So all you are left with is a theory, not a proof. The argument as a proof was refuted.

For example:

Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever.

That proof fails as a proof. IOW your proof is refuted as a proof. As shown by the following facts.

It says "all generations" OF the "age of the ages". Not "age of the ages" is equal in duration to the duration of "all generations" of the future.

The Greek (see literal versions below) says the "all generations" are OF the "age of the ages". Not "all generations" of all time & eternity. So the "generations" are directly related to the "age of the ages". If the "age is limited then the "all generations" are referring to "all generations" within that finite "age".

The "all generations" is limited to the "age of the ages". If that "age" is finite, then the "all generations" are restricted to the period within that finite age & are not necessarily eternal. Therefore your argument fails to prove what you claim it does.

If that "age" refers to a finite period such as a future age or millennium & ending by the time the new heavens & earth are created, then it is finite. The apostle Paul spoke of multiple future ages (Eph.2:7) as do many other passages (e.g. Rev.22:5). So there is no need to assume the "age" referred to in Eph.3:21 is endless. Therefore, once again, your conclusion "doesn't fly" & "holds no water". IOW it fails as a proven conclusion. It is refuted as a proof, being reduced to no more than a mere theory amongst at least one other theory i've stated above.

Several more accurate, honest & literal translations read:

Young's Literal Translation
to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

Berean Literal Bible
to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

Darby Bible Translation
to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages. Amen).

Ephesians 3:21 Interlinear: to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.
 
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ClementofA

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YOU do not see because YOU do not want to see.

Just like you will not see it in 2 Thess. 2:10-12.

"and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

There will not be anyone saved who have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ by the time "that Wicked" - The Antichrist is revealed. There will be judgment in the form of a God-sent strong delusion.

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.




XYZ said:
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Saved from what? Annihilation? Endless tortures? A trip to "hell" until they repent & are justified in Christ.

A better translation is:

2 Thess.2:10 and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, 11and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, 12that they may be judged — all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness. (YLT)

Notice the tenses used..."perishing...being saved". At that moment they were not "being saved". So it doesn't rule out them being saved later.

Perishing is the same word used of the "lost" prodigal son who was saved. So that a person perishes does not mean they are lost forever or cannot be saved later.

The passage refers to the future when Christ returns. The lost will not be "being saved"...at that time. No reference is made in 2 Thess 2 to how long they will be punished, if such is corrective or purely sadistic, or final destiny.

So 2 Thess.2:10 fails as an alleged "proof text" against universalism. What you need to disprove universalism is a verse saying anyone will "never be saved" or suffer "endless punishment", etc. Since such does not exist, there is no Scriptural refutation of universalism.

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

None of the verses that anyone has posted refute universalism. They have all been addressed.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.



*****************************************************


I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.
 
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ClementofA

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You said...…...
"All ages end, followed by additional ages, until time shall be no more."

Despite the efforts of men to override the clear teaching of the Bible, the Bible is clear about the eternal nature of the punishment of the wicked. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25:46). It is easy to see that Life is the same in duration as is the Punishment of the wicked. If one is temporary, so is the other. If the punishment of those held within the lake of fire is temporary, heaven is also temporary.

The New Testament use of the words eternal and everlasting makes it clear what they mean. It is "everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46). The fire is "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41). There will be "eternal damnation" for some (Mark 3:29). For emphasis, consider how other verses use these words:

1. God is everlasting. "According to the commandment of the everlasting God" (ref. Romans 16:26). Does everlasting mean unending or temporary? Will God cease to exist?

2. The Holy Spirit is eternal. "Who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God" (ref. Hebrews 9:14). Is the Holy Spirit temporary? When the lake of fire gives up her dead, will He go out of existence?

3. Redemption is eternal. "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us" (Hebrews 9:12) Is Christ's work of eternal redemption completed or was it for just a brief time?

4. Salvation is eternal. "He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" ( ref. Hebrews 5:9). Will salvation also be temporary as well?

5. The kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. The faithful will be in "the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:11). Will the end to the suffrage of the wicked in the lake of fire also earmark the end of the kingdom of God?

The same words in both Greek and English are used to describe the future punishment of the wicked that are used to describe God, the Spirit, salvation, and the kingdom. "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41).

Therefore, the fallacy with even arguing how long the duration of "aion" and "aionios" as to mean an age or duration of time less than forever and ever and to mean something other than time everlasting to support the doctrine of universal reconciliation is that then the same argument can be applied to heaven, God, and the everlasting life of the saints. In this the universalist is not consistent with their argument of what these words mean. Further, any objections to aion and aionius being rendered as "for ever" in English and not specifically covered here will be based on such scanty factual evidence or philosophical reasoning as to be made untenable to be the basis of one's belief in universalism. I am confident in the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment for the wicked as was S. Lewis Johnson, who wrote: "It is doubful that there is a doctrine in the Bible easier to than that of eternal punishment (cf. Matthew 25:46)."

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works" (Titus 2:11-14).The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

Good. "Aionios" in Matthew 25:46 means eternal./everlasting.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

These translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the universal salvation verses i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096

Hart adds:

"...how greatly formulations that seem to imply universal salvation outnumber those that appear to threaten an ultimate damnation for the wicked. Still, none of that surprised me; it merely roused me from my complacent assumption that, simply by virtue of having read the text in Greek for many years, I had a natural feel for its tone."

Christ's Rabble | Commonweal Magazine

Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?


XYZ said:
It is repeating a line of argument that, so far, you have not even come close to successfully refuting.

You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

XYZ said:
It is not an assumption that Matthew 25:46 employs a parallel, but a plain fact.

Interpretation 1 above accepts the parallel of "eonian destinies". So the parallel there is not denied. Likewise interpretation 2 above acknowledging parallel perpetual destinies. But that the word perpetual can vary according to its subject.

XYZ said:
Let us look at this verse again:

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."
 
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ClementofA

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Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church.



I've already refuted the claims in that post & my refutations have never been refuted:

Matt Slick: "The truth is, they (universalists) are right"

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

LYING SCRIBES...AIONION:

Could most modern translations be in error?

What Does Aionios Mean? (part 2, It is wrong to define aionios based on aion)

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism


Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
 
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ClementofA said:
...1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire....
I have addressed this out-of-context proof text many times.
1 Corinthians 3:9-17
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
This passage is addressed to a specific group "laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building, who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ NOT all mankind
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
Every man, any man, no man etc. refers to that specific group not all mankind
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Any man's work building on the foundation of Jesus Christ NOT all mankind
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
This verse show that vs. 15 does not say all mankind will be saved. If any man defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him not save him.
 
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I have addressed this out-of-context proof text many times.
1 Corinthians 3:9-17
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
This passage is addressed to a specific group "laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building, who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ NOT all mankind
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
Every man, any man, no man etc. refers to that specific group not all mankind
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Any man's work building on the foundation of Jesus Christ NOT all mankind
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
This verse show that vs. 15 does not say all mankind will be saved. If any man defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him not save him.

v.17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is holy, which you are.

How is it God will destroy what some human has already destroyed (as v.17 says)?

Can God un-destroy & recover what has been destroyed? Of course. Look at the case of the King in Daniel 4.

The same Greek word for destroy is used by the same author later in the same epistle:

1 Cor.15:33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company destroys/ruins good morals.”

Of course one whose morals have been ruined/destroyed can have them restored again:

1 Tim.1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I posted:

Verse 17 refers to the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

DA replied:

Nonsense! Typical UR twisting of scripture. Who is 1 Cor addressed to? ch. 1 vs. 2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,"


Yet you've admitted yourself that v.17 refers to a lost person who is obviously therefore a sinner, hence (as i said) a lost sinner. Are you now contradicting yourself? Or have you changed your viewpoint?

Who the letter is addressed to is irrelevant to the subject of who 1 Cor.3:15 is referring to. Just because a letter is addressed to someone does not prove its contents are speaking ONLY about the person it is addressed to. It could speak about MANY other people & topics, such as angels, all mankind, nations, Satan, covenants, other churches, Jews, Gentiles, & other topics besides the one solitary church in Corinth.

I posted:

Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

DA replied:

Nonsense! The lost world is not building on the foundation of Christ!

Verse 11 says nothing about anyone "building" on the foundation. It says "no one" (i.e. no person) can another foundation "lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ". By "no one" it refers to all people, all mankind, not just the saints in one city, Corinth.

I posted:

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

DA replied:

Total rubbish Paul does not say anything which would indicate that the subject changed from the "saved in the church at Corinth" to "lost sinners."
Placing vs. 15 before vss. 12-14 does not change the subject. The subject of vs. 15, "any man" is the same "any/every man" as in vss. 10-15 those who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ.

Not so. See above.

"This foundation" vs. 12 is "Jesus Christ," vs. 10. Sinners are not building anything, of any material, on the foundation of Jesus Christ!

Sinful works - wood, hay & stubble - are being built on the foundation of Jesus Christ (see 1 Cor.3:12) & will be burnt up (v.13-15). This is being done by the sinners (v.11, 17) referred to above. That includes both sinning believers who lost their salvation (v.17) & unbelieving sinners (v.11). You agree that the believer (cf. 17) builds on the foundation. And having lost his salvation cannot enter the kingdom of God in his sinful lost state (6:9-11). So he must first be saved as by fire (1 Cor.3:15).

As to unbelieving sinners, Paul didn't say only believers can build on the foundation [Christ] works of "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble". Scripture says: "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (Jn.1:9). He lighteth "every man", not just Christians. So every man could be said to build on Christ by his life's works according to how one responds to the "Light" which "lighteth every man". And the quality of those works, whether of precious metals or useless things (1 Cor.3), would depend on how each one responded to that "Light" which "lighteth every man", not just Christians. If they build with "silver" (1 Cor.3:12), which represents atonement or redemption in the Scriptures, then they build with faith in Christ's death for their sins. Building with "wood, hay and stubble, OTOH, which contain no silver, is not building with faith & represents unbelief, the unbeliever.


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I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.
 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
...I've already refuted the claims in that post & my refutations have never been refuted:
LYING SCRIBES...AIONION:...
More irrelevant out-of-context proof texts and no you have not refuted anything. Unsupported opinions are not evidence. Quoting biased UR "scholars" giving their unsupported opinions are not evidence. Quoting different versions, translations etc. are not evidence.
Jeremiah 8:8-13
8 "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
9 The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the LORD, what kind of wisdom do they have?
10 Therefore I will give their wives to other men and their fields to new owners. From the least to the greatest, all are greedy for gain; prophets and priests alike, all practice deceit.
11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. "Peace, peace," they say, when there is no peace.
12 Are they ashamed of their detestable conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.
13 "'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.'"
This was about 700 BC during the Babylonian captivity and God dealt with the "lying pens" of the deceitful scribes then and there. Do you actually think that God would allow His word to be "falsely handled" for 2700 years without making corrections? You haven't read your Bible.
Isaiah 55:8-11
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
That is how one refutes false teaching.
 
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ClementofA said:
\As to unbelieving sinners, Paul didn't say only believers can build on the foundation [Christ] works of "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble". Scripture says: "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (Jn.1:9). He lighteth "every man", not just Christians. So every man could be said to build on Christ by his life's works according to how one responds to the "Light" which "lighteth every man". And the quality of those works, whether of precious metals or useless things (1 Cor.3), would depend on how each one responded to that "Light" which "lighteth every man", not just Christians. If they build with "silver" (1 Cor.3:12), which represents atonement or redemption in the Scriptures, then they build with faith in Christ's death for their sins. Building with "wood, hay and stubble, OTOH, which contain no silver, is not building with faith & represents unbelief, the unbeliever...
What utter, complete rubbish! Another logical fallacy argument from silence "what Paul didn't say." Any/every false heterodox religious group in the world does this same thing. A piece of a verse here and and piece of a verse there they can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to. White isn't really white it is black. Up is not really up it is down etc. Nothing means what it says it is all figurative.
.....Please explain to me how the Corinthians, who first heard/read the Corinthian letters would have understood them? Would they have understood the distorted nonsense you wrote or would they have understood it exactly as it is written?
.....I don't see anywhere Paul, or any other NT writer, furnished their intended audiences with a set of instructions how to correctly interpret all the supposed figurative language hidden in the epistles. It is not likely that any average believer had a copy of any NT letter or book. They certainly didn't have some kind of electronic gadget where they could instantly call up any verse(s) they wanted to to "help" them "correctly" understand the Corinthian letters or any other book. So they could not read all the supposed hidden references such as Jn 1:9 etc.
 
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