Question for those who deny easy believism

FreeGrace2 · Jun 5, 2020

JulieB67 said:
I used to believe in OSAS years ago until I first read the bible in it's entirety some 20 years ago.

I've read the Bible in its entirety as well, and then began reading through the NT monthly almost 2 decades ago, and I am even more a firm believer in eternal security.

I'm the perfect example of someone who was brought up going to church, claimed to be Christian, thought I was saved (off and on) but in my 20's and even into my 30's after I was married did my own thing. I would pray and go about my business. I would try and get back seriously at times but would slide away again. In the back of my mind, I knew but still didn't have a full change of heart years later (repentence) So was I saved when I was young?

It all depends upon WHAT you believed when you were young. Your testimony here indicates a lot of confusion on your part. If you ever believed that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died for your sins, and you trusted fully in Him alone for salvation, then yes, you ARE STILL saved.

I think it's more of a case of this,
"expos4ever said: ↑
Who says that salvation really happens 'in a moment in time'? Certainly not Paul:"

Unfortunately, your quote didn't include whatever expos4ever quoted from Paul.

The belief was there but not the true repentance- a change of heart about the things I did.

So, where do you think the Bible teaches that belief either involves "true repentance" or requires it for salvation? Now, don't get me wrong. I'm NOT suggesting that salvation is casually obtained. It isn't. But salvation is an act by God towards any human being who actually BELIEVES the gospel promise of salvation in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. Does that make sense to you? If not, please clarify.

Not really bad things but habitual habits that takes away from God. And not putting God and his will first. That's been my main issue.

The clear point of the Bible is that salvation is permanent.

Getting choked up with the cares of this world, something Christ tells us not to.

Yes, He gave us a parable about the cares of the world, in the parables of the 4 soils. It was the 3rd soil that got all choked up with the cares of this world. And what was the result? Not loss of salvation. Rather, no production. iow, those believers who get all choked up with the cares of the world will NOT bear fruit, which is commanded for believers, not unbelievers. No one gets saved by "fruit bearing".

I actually was able to come to repentance on those things finally (praise God!!!) He will finish the work he starts in us.

This is true, so why don't you believe in eternal security then?

But it can take time. My faith grew stronger after I actually started studying and getting into the Word.

That's the only way a believer will grow up spiritually. But you have already come to the wrong conclusion about eternal security after reading the Bible all the way through.

The only thing to fear is the unknown.

What have you done about that? The Bible says that whatever is not of faith is SIN. What do you do about your own sins? 1 John 1:9 tells us specifically. When you fear, you need to apply 1 John 1:9.

And as Paul teaches, that we even need to get past salvation issues as well because we have to get into the meat of God's word. There is so much in the Word that's not even being taught today.

Well, that is for sure.

But as for it taking time in a person's life that's why Paul uses a race as an example.,

Hebrews 12:1
"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us"

Well, it's not clear even among scholars about who actually wrote Hebrews.

But Heb 12:1 isn't about 'how to stay saved' anyway. The "race" here is about earning eternal reward. I'm sure you came across that when you read through the Bible, right?

We're always going to fall short but when we do, we have an advocate in Christ who can cleanse us once again.

Yes. Now, WHEN does He cleanse us? Hint: 1 John 1:9

We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, (and faith will bring works) but we must come to repentance or how can we truly be in fellowship with him?

The notion that faith will bring works is flawed. There are many commands in Scripture for believers TO bear fruit (works). Why is that? Because it isn't automatic nor guaranteed. The only way to bear fruit is to be in fellowship, as you noted, and the works must be done in the power of the Holy Spirit. How does a believer access the power of the Holy Spirit? Keep in mind that Paul did command believers to be "filled with the Spirit" in Eph 5:18. How doe that happen?

And the beauty of Christianity is even after we have a change of heart and fall short, which we will- God is always there with open arms, ready to forgive through Christ, our advocate.

Amen to that! But again, what is the basis for the believer to be forgiven when they fall short?

JulieB67 · Jun 5, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
If you ever believed that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died for your sins, and you trusted fully in Him alone for salvation, then yes, you ARE STILL saved.

I John 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

If a person believes and still continues to live their life they way they want to without putting God first, we lie and the truth is not in us.

Of course the salvation is always there, Christ didn't fail but it's the person that chooses to walk away a not come back with a repentant heart. Believing and trusting in Christ means we do have a change of heart, we will constantly try and always put spirit above flesh. We always will sin and fall short. That's where I John 1:9 comes in.

Christ even taught that there were people that think they are getting through the gates and Christ tells them to depart, I never knew you. Which leads me to believe this has to do with the great falling away (apostasy) that Paul teaches about in 2nd Thes in the end times.

I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

I totally believe this. It's the beauty of Christianity.

Unfortunately, your quote didn't include whatever expos4ever quoted from

I was agreeing with this statement in general,

Who says that salvation really happens 'in a moment in time'?

So, where do you think the Bible teaches that belief either involves "true repentance" or requires it for salvation?

II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

To repent as is to have a true change of heart. To think differently as before.

And since Christ is the Word become flesh we have to believe the Word as well.

If we say we are saved but then just go about living our lives as before, constantly putting the flesh before the spirit, than the truth is not in us and we are lying to ourselves as John taught. And yes, the flesh will aways war with the spirit, but you want to put the spirit first not the other way around. Some people arrive at that point in different points of their lives. If a person gets saved and they are immediately at that point, than yes, they can be secure.

Again, I trust that Jesus can save and he does and the salvation is always there, but that doesn't mean people can walk away and never come back are saved. John said they are lying to themselves and the truth is not in them. And how could it be? That's the point I'm making.

The only thing to fear is the unknown

1 John 1:9 tells us specifically. When you fear, you need to apply 1 John 1:9.

I wasn't talking about me having any fear. I made that statement for those who do fear and was implying that reading the bible relieves that fear. I guess that didn't come out right.

I'm sure you came across that when you read through the Bible, right?

Actually I was overwhelmed with the fact that many many false doctrines I had been brought up with were not biblical. I really went through some soul searching through that period. But I came out the better for it and am in the best place I've ever been in my life. I am secure in my salvation. But it took years for me to get to that point.

The notion that faith will bring works is flawed.

Why would you think so?? James is teaching us that if someone has faith, you're going to naturally have works. No one has to work for salvation. But even simply smiling at at someone is a good deed, helping your family or friends, planting seeds, etc. Those are all good works and Christians become more compassionate, etc. You have a new outlook on life in general. If you claim to be a Christian, will want to do these things. You're not forced. Again, that is what repentance is all about. And that's what James is talking about.

And of course Paul told us to be filled with the spirit. That's the only way we can have fellowship if we put the spirit ahead of the flesh.

I'll just go back to this verse,

I John 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

These are people that think they are saved. But John says if they walk in darkness the truth is not in them.

I do believe the salvation is always there. But my point is about people supposedly getting saved and just going about their lives as if nothing is different, no change of heart and living their lives full of sin just as before. I think that's impossible if one had really come to repentance.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 5, 2020

I said:
"If you ever believed that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died for your sins, and you trusted fully in Him alone for salvation, then yes, you ARE STILL saved."

JulieB67 said:
I John 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

If a person believes and still continues to live their life they way they want to without putting God first, we lie and the truth is not in us.

John used the first person plural pronoun "we". He was including himself, a saved disciple and apostle. v.6 is directed at BELIEVERS. Having fellowship is not salvation. It it what should happen AFTER salvation.

Of course the salvation is always there, Christ didn't fail but it's the person that chooses to walk away a not come back with a repentant heart.

Of course people fail. You made that point about yourself. But why do you equate failing with losing salvation?

Believing and trusting in Christ means we do have a change of heart, we will constantly try and always put spirit above flesh. We always will sin and fall short. That's where I John 1:9 comes in.

Yes it does. Now, what is the result of applying 1 John 1:9?

Christ even taught that there were people that think they are getting through the gates and Christ tells them to depart, I never knew you.

Right. Now, can you tell me on what basis that crowd was basing their intrance into the kingdom?

I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

I totally believe this. It's the beauty of Christianity.

Can you explain what this verse is about?

You said:
"Who says that salvation really happens 'in a moment in time'?"

So I asked:
"So, where do you think the Bible teaches that belief either involves "true repentance" or requires it for salvation?"

II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

To repent as is to have a true change of heart. To think differently as before.

I don't see that this verse answers my question about belief PLUS repentance. Do you know what the Greek word for "repent" means? It means to change the mind.

Anyone who believes in Christ for salvation HAS changed their mind.

And since Christ is the Word become flesh we have to believe the Word as well.

Of course we do.

If we say we are saved but then just go about living our lives as before, constantly putting the flesh before the spirit, than the truth is not in us and we are lying to ourselves as John taught.

John wrote that to BELIEVERS, who are already saved.

And yes, the flesh will aways war with the spirit, but you want to put the spirit first not the other way around. Some people arrive at that point in different points of their lives. If a person gets saved and they are immediately at that point, than yes, they can be secure.

What causes any believer to be "insecure"?

Again, I trust that Jesus can save and he does and the salvation is always there, but that doesn't mean people can walk away and never come back are saved.

Yes it does mean that. Please share with me any verse that clearly (plainly) says that those who walk away will lose their salvation.

John said they are lying to themselves and the truth is not in them. And how could it be? That's the point I'm making.

John was saying that such believers are ignorant (no truth in them). What John didn't say was that salvation was no longer in them. That seems to be your conclusion, though. And unsupported from Scripture.

I wasn't talking about me having any fear.

This is exactly what you said:
"The only thing to fear is the unknown."

Since humans are not omniscient, everything in the future is unknown.

I made that statement for those who do fear and was implying that reading the bible relieves that fear. I guess that didn't come out right.

OK.

Actually I was overwhelmed with the fact that many many false doctrines I had been brought up with were not biblical.

Yes, I can see that.

I really went through some soul searching through that period. But I came out the better for it and am in the best place I've ever been in my life. I am secure in my salvation. But it took years for me to get to that point.

Amen!!

I said:
"The notion that faith will bring works is flawed."

Why would you think so??

Because it is a flawed (inaccurate) teaching.

James is teaching us that if someone has faith, you're going to naturally have works.

No he didn't. There isn't anything automatic or guaranteed in James 2. Nothing. James' whole point is that believers (those with faith) SHOULD HAVE works to demonstrate their faith. iow, our faith can't be seen, because humans can't read minds. Humans need evidence that someone believes.

No one has to work for salvation. But even simply smiling at at someone is a good deed, helping your family or friends, planting seeds, etc. Those are all good works and Christians become more compassionate, etc.

They should. Be we all know of examples of those who hven't become more compassionate, etc.

You have a new outlook on life in general.

That is not automatic. it requires spiritual growth.

If you claim to be a Christian, will want to do these things.

I would change "want" to "should".

You're not forced. Again, that is what repentance is all about. And that's what James is talking about.

No, he was talking about demonstrating your faith so others will see it and even benefit from it. And he gave us a great example in 2:15,16.

15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

Do you see it? The idiot believer in v.15 only gives lip service when addressing the real needs are ignored. I call that a hypocrite. A big one. James wants to save believers from the charge of being hypocrites.

And of course Paul told us to be filled with the spirit. That's the only way we can have fellowship if we put the spirit ahead of the flesh.

I believe I asked how a believer obeys the command to be filled. Do you know?

I'll just go back to this verse,
I John 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

These are people that think they are saved. But John says if they walk in darkness the truth is not in them.

You are quite mistaken. His use of the first person plural includes himself, so it CAN'T be about unsaved people. Why would he include himself in a statement that is for unbelievers? That doesn't make sense.

v.6 is about believers who claim to be in fellowship, but have no idea how to do that. And they are "walking in darkness", meaning that they are living for themselves, just like you described about yourself when you were younger. You were saved but walking in darkness.

Again, do you know how to obey the command of Eph 5:18, which is to be filled with the Spirit?

Also, do you know how to get in fellowship when you've sinned?

JulieB67 · Jun 5, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
You are quite mistaken. His use of the first person plural includes himself, so it CAN'T be about unsaved people.

I never said these verses were for unsaved people. Quite comical because for the last day I've been debating with someone that these verses were in fact to believers in general.

Of course John including himself as a believer. But it doesn't change the fact if we say we have fellowship and walk in darkness than we lie and the truth is not in us. A repentant Christian will not walk in darkness. These "so called believers" have a false sense of security and think they have fellowship with him. John is telling them they don't. Once you have repentance you will not want to walk in darkness. Of course they can repent. But if they continue in darkness, the truth is not in them.

What do you think not having the truth in you means?

FreeGrace2 said:
But why do you equate failing with losing salvation?

Failing in the sense that they supposedly believe and get saved and then walk away. Most of my post is about repentance. If someone falls and comes back and repents, the salvation is there.

FreeGrace2 said:
Right. Now, can you tell me on what basis that crowd was basing their intrance into the kingdom

They cast out demons in his name and did works in his name. But the ticker is these were so called "believers" The works and casting out demons has nothing to do with it. IAs you said, someone can even walk away and still be saved -why aren't these people getting into heaven? If they truly believed and apparently did by their works in his name.
As I said, it probably will have to do with the great apostasy coming up. And if we don't have that timing down, many will indeed fall away. But that's another topic for another thread..

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven."

Again, this goes back to putting God before the flesh. We have to be at the point were we can do the will of our Father.

FreeGrace2 said:
Again, do you know how to obey the command of Eph 5:18, which is to be filled with the Spirit?

Again, this is putting the spirit ahead of the flesh. And there will be certain people in the end times that will be publishing the word of God. They are not to premeditate but let the holy spirit speak through them.

Also, do you know how to get in fellowship when you've sinned?[/QUOTE]

I have fellowship right now.

JulieB67 · Jun 5, 2020

TLSITD said:
If you are the exact same person you were before you were born again after being born again---little to no desire for the things of the Spirit, no consciousness of or conviction from the Holy Spirit, wanting to sin rather than wanting to be holy, having a guilty fear of God in your heart and no genuine love for Him, feeling burdened by obedience to God rather than delighting in and desiring it, having no spiritual power to overcome sinful behaviors or attitudes when tempted by them---all of these are indicative of a person who isn't genuinely converted.

That's kind of what I was trying to say but you said it better lol

TLSITD said:
We all start out more earthly in our ways and thinking as Christians. Spiritual growth requires the renewing of our minds by God with spiritual understanding and attitudes. That is a lifelong process. And all Christians sin. But if you don't recognize that you've been genuinely changed on the inside, and you're just the same person plus religion and minus some bad habits, you're not a Christian.

Yes, again, I agree and should have quoted you before. I was trying to convey that message in my first post about my life in general. It's taking me years to get to the point where I"m at now.

And yes,the salvation is there, it's a one time thing but you have to genuinely change on the inside and that can sometimes take awhile. That's why I love that God has so much patience.

TLSITD said:
Salvation is hard, according to Scripture; not receiving the gift of eternal life, but keeping it to the end.

Yes, so true.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 5, 2020

JulieB67 said:
I never said these verses were for unsaved people. Quite comical because for the last day I've been debating with someone that these verses were in fact to believers in general.

This is exactly what you said in post #62-
"I'll just go back to this verse,

I John 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

These are people that think they are saved. But John says if they walk in darkness the truth is not in them."

The underlined sentence highly suggests that you don't think they are saved. Many people "think they are saved" simply on the basis of what they DO, just like the crowd in Matt 7:21-23, yet they aren't.

Of course John including himself as a believer. But it doesn't change the fact if we say we have fellowship and walk in darkness than we lie and the truth is not in us.

And that doesn't mean they are unsaved.

A repentant Christian will not walk in darkness.

Of course not. But there are believers who DO walk in darkness, just like you described of yourself when you were younger.

These "so called believers" have a false sense of security and think they have fellowship with him.

Security and fellowship are 2 different things. Why do you connect them?

John is telling them they don't.

Don't "what", exactly? Have salvation? Or something else.

Once you have repentance you will not want to walk in darkness.

Read Romans 6 and 7. The struggle with the sinful nature is on-going. Not a once and done kind of deal.

Of course they can repent. But if they continue in darkness, the truth is not in them.

OK.

What do you think not having the truth in you means?

Being ignorant of the Bible. Some might be tempted to say "stupid".

Failing in the sense that they supposedly believe and get saved and then walk away. Most of my post is about repentance. If someone falls and comes back and repents, the salvation is there.

Oh, I see. Salvation is for only those who believe, and when they fail, repent. Is that it? I'd like to see any evidence of that in Scripture.

They cast out demons in his name and did works in his name.

Read Revelation and learn that the false prophet will do in ch 13-
13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people.
14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

So, don't be tricked by anyone who performs miracles. Satan has a bunch up his sleeve.

But the ticker is these were so called "believers"

Could you point out where you get this notion from? There is nothing in the 3 verses about any of them believing in Christ for salvation. Zero. All of their appeal was on what they DID. Just like the Pharisees of Jesus' day. They certainly weren't believers. They WERE religious people.

[QTUOTE] The works and casting out demons has nothing to do with it.[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding? That was the ENTIRE basis for their appeal for getting into the kingdom.

As you said, someone can even walk away and still be saved -why aren't these people getting into heaven?

They weren't saved. They were religious but not believers. A huge difference.

If they truly believed and apparently did by their works in his name.

You're being fooled by what they did. Go back and read Rev 13 carefully.

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven."

Again, this goes back to putting God before the flesh. We have to be at the point were we can do the will of our Father.

Jesus was referring to John 6:40 when He spoke of "the will of the Father".

Again, this is putting the spirit ahead of the flesh.

I've asked several times now, but I haven't seen any clear explanation of how to be filled with the Spirit, or, as you keep putting it, "putting the spirit ahead of the flesh".

I asked:
" Also, do you know how to get in fellowship when you've sinned?"

I have fellowship right now.

This doesn't answer my question. I asked HOW you do. Not "if you are".

Can you explain how to get in fellowship when you've sinned?

If so, please do.

Thanks.

JulieB67 · Jun 5, 2020

I have read Revelation, all of it. I totally believe that we need to have the full amour on at that point because Satan is so powerful at that time, many will fall away as Paul taught in 2nd Thes. And it's God that sends the delusion because people would rather believe the lie than love the truth. Anti in the Greek means "instead of", he will be here instead of Christ (Christ returning at the 7th) playing Savior and the whole world will wonder after him because of those miracles. Christ says that those that endure to the end the same shall be saved.

FreeGrace2 said:
I've asked several times now, but I haven't seen any clear explanation of how to be filled with the Spirit, or, as you keep putting it, "putting the spirit ahead of the flesh".

There are different ways. For me, I get back in his Word. That works best for me. Some people love Christian music, etc

FreeGrace2 said:
Can you explain how to get in fellowship when you've sinned?

When I fall short, I ask for forgiveness. And I get back in his Word. Fellowship is a partnership with our heavenly Father through Jesus Christ. When we walk in the light (God is light) we have fellowship. Although at my point in my life, I have repented, so it's just an issue of asking for forgiveness.

I don't know why we keep going round and round, You believe someone can be saved and walk their entire life in darkness and still be saved. I don't. It's as simple as that.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 5, 2020

JulieB67 said:
I have read Revelation, all of it. I totally believe that we need to have the full amour on at that point because Satan is so powerful at that time, many will fall away as Paul taught in 2nd Thes.

I'm still not clear about what you mean by "fall away". Please explain.

And it's God that sends the delusion because people would rather believe the lie than love the truth. Anti in the Greek means "instead of", he will be here instead of Christ (Christ returning at the 7th) playing Savior and the whole world will wonder after him because of those miracles.

Jesus doesn't "play Savior". What in the world do you mean?

I asked:
"I've asked several times now, but I haven't seen any clear explanation of how to be filled with the Spirit, or, as you keep putting it, "putting the spirit ahead of the flesh"."

There are different ways. For me, I get back in his Word. That works best for me. Some people love Christian music, etc

One problem. There are no verses that say any of this. Esp "Christian music". btw, that is just emotions anyway. Hardly the way to be filled with the Spirit. More like filled with emotions.

Actually, the only way I've found in Scripture requires several passages.

First, the believer must be in fellowship, meaning that he/she has been forgiven and cleansed of their confessed sins. 1 John 1:9.

Recall that God does not hear the prayers when he/she regards iniquity in their heart. Psa 66:18.

Once in fellowship, the believer must pray in God's will, per 1 Joohn 5-
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

Since being filled with the Spirit is a command, we also know that it is God's will that all believers be filled with the Spirit. So the red words in v.14 mean that we MUST ask to be filled. This is submission to the Holy Spirit.

Believers can read the Bible while day dreaming. They can pray while day dreaming. In fact, a believer can do any of the so-called spiritual disciplines while day dreaming. So none of these things are how to be filled with the Spirit.

The ONLY WAY that I can determine from clear Scripture is what I've explained. It is intentional.

When I fall short, I ask for forgiveness.

Except 1 John 1:9 doesn't say that. Please read it again and re-answer my question of how to get into fellowship with the Lord.

And I get back in his Word.

See above regarding what people can do while reading the Bible.

Fellowship is a partnership with our heavenly Father through Jesus Christ.

No. The "partnership" refers to bearing fruit from the power of the Holy Spirit. His power, our fruit production. That's partnership. What you've described here is about relationship, not fellowship.

We are God's children (relationship) through faith in Jesus Christ.

Can you explain the difference between relationship and fellowship?

When we walk in the light (God is light) we have fellowship.

That's what John said. But what does it mean to walk in the light?

Although at my point in my life, I have repented, so it's just an issue of asking for forgiveness.

Go back to 1 John 1:9 and study a bit more.

I don't know why we keep going round and round, You believe someone can be saved and walk their entire life in darkness and still be saved. I don't. It's as simple as that.

While simple, it's also quite contradictory, since you claimed to believe in eternal security. You can't have it both ways. Your view is conflicted. That's why we're just going round and round. I'm trying to get you to see the light.

JulieB67 · Jun 5, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm still not clear about what you mean by "fall away". Please explain.

Falling away -Apostasy

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus doesn't "play Savior". What in the world do you mean?

I'm sorry I guess that didn't come out right. I mean Satan/Antichrist will be playing savior.

FreeGrace2 said:
One problem. There are no verses that say any of this. Esp "Christian music". btw, that is just emotions anyway.

So I gather we shouldn't take Paul's advice then on how to fill ourselves?

Ephesians 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the spirit;"
Ephesians 5:19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

19 is a continuation of 18. So yes, Paul is giving those examples on how we can fill ourselves. What is your definition of spiritual songs if not Christian music?

This can put one in the right mindset when one is struggling with the flesh (such as Paul's example wine) and then they can try and think spiritually instead of carnally. As I said, I keep in the Word. To me if you stay in his word, you can't go wrong if your heart's already in the right place.

Paul is saying don't be full of wine (flesh) but be filled with the spirit.

FreeGrace2 said:
Once in fellowship, the believer must pray in God's will, per 1 Joohn 5-
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

I don't disagree with this. We should always pray in his will. That's how we know we are on the right path, when we know that it is "His" will not ours that we need to live by. That's mainly what my posts are about. Not everyone lives according to his will but theirs. When we reverse that way of thinking than we can have fellowship.

FreeGrace2 said:
No. The "partnership" refers to bearing fruit from the power of the Holy Spirit. His power, our fruit production. That's partnership. What you've described here is about relationship, not fellowship.

Fellowship in the Greek -From koinonos; partnership, i.e. (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction -- (to) communicate(-ation), communion, (contri-)distribution, fellowship.

When we walk in the light we have that fellowship with God. It mean's we are in a partnership. I can go right to the throne in prayer through Christ's name. That's what communication is through Christ. If we walk in darkness we can't do that. Which is what John was preaching.

FreeGrace2 said:
The ONLY WAY that I can determine from clear Scripture is what I've explained. It is intentional.

When one has come to repentance, you are submitting yourself to God. Because as I've said, it's at that point that you try and put his will over your own. Yes, we all fall short but that should be a constant thought of mind.

FreeGrace2 said:
Your view is conflicted. That's why we're just going round and round. I'm trying to get you to see the light.

I used to believe as you did. I was brought up to believe that. But we see things differently. And that's fine. We all have to sail our own ships on this journey. I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one. It wouldn't be the first time for me on this board and I'm sure it won't be the last

FreeGrace2 · Jun 5, 2020

I asked:
"I'm still not clear about what you mean by "fall away". Please explain."

JulieB67 said:
Falling away -Apostasy

Please what "apostasy" means. And don't say "fall away". Let's not go in circles.

I'm sorry that didn't come out right. I mean Satan/Antichrist will be playing savior.

Right.

I said this, regarding what isn't the way to be filled with the Spirit:
"One problem. There are no verses that say any of this. Esp "Christian music". btw, that is just emotions anyway."

So I gather we shouldn't take Paul's advice then on how to fill ourselves?

We don't "fill ourselves". That may be partly where the confusion lies. We are filled when we submit to the Spirit. What better way to submit than to ask the Spirit to fill us?

Ephesians 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the spirit;"
Ephesians 5:19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

19 is a continuation of 18. So yes, Paul is giving those examples on how we can fill ourselves.

No, he's not. There are no words that connect v.19 to v.18 in the way that you claim. Yes, we are to also obey v.19. But v.19 isn't the way to be filled.

I already gave you the way to be filled. To ask for it. 1 John 5:14,15

This can put one in the right mindset when one is struggling with the flesh (such as Paul's example wine) and then they can try and think spiritually instead of carnally.

This isn't about what one "tries" to do. It's about what one CAN and WILL do when filled with the Spirit.

If you're simply "trying", then it's your own flesh that's trying. The Spirit doesn't "try". The Spirit DOES. See the difference?

As I said, I keep in the Word. To me if you stay in his word, you can't go wrong if your heart's already in the right place.

Don't you agree that a person can read the Bible and day dream at the same time? The key, as you point out, is where your heart is. And that, once again, speaks to intentionality. To be filled with the Spirit requires intentionality. That's why the best way I know is to ask. That's as intentional as it gets. And it completely aligns with what Jesus said about asking and receiving in Matt 21:22.

Paul is saying don't be full of wine (flesh) but be filled with the spirit.

Paul was making a comparison between being influenced by wine vs being influenced by the Spirit.

How does a person act when "under the influence? Poorly.
How does a person act when filled with the Spirit"? Christ-like.

See the difference?

I don't disagree with this. We should always pray in his will. That's how we know we are on the right path, when we know that it is "His" will not ours that we need to live by. That's mainly what my posts are about. Not everyone lives according to his will but theirs. When we reverse that way of thinking than we can have fellowship.

My point concerns the specifics I've pointed out from Scripture.

Fellowship in the Greek -From koinonos; partnership, i.e. (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction -- (to) communicate(-ation), communion, (contri-)distribution, fellowship.

It's helpful to think of "fellowship" as applied to marriage. Spouses can be either IN fellowship with each other or OUT OF fellowship with each other. Do you agree?

When we walk in the light we have that fellowship with God.

It's too vague to say "walk in the light". That needs to be fleshed out. Explained. That's what I'm doing. Confess your sins (not ask for forgiveness), then ask for the filling of the Spirit. Then being in the Word, and following the commands and guidance from Scripture.

It mean's we are in a partnership.

I asked if you know the difference between fellowship and relationship, and apparently you do not. We are in relationship with the Lord through faith in Christ. That is permanent.

Fellowship is being in communion with each other. Like spouses in fellowship. There is no communion when OUT OF fellowship with each other.

I can go right to the throne in prayer through Christ's name.

Not unless you've been forgiven and cleansed through confession of your sin. Psa 66:18 says "If I regard sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened;"

iow, when OUT OF fellowship, the Lord doesn't hear our prayers.

That's what communication is through Christ. If we walk in darkness we can't do that. Which is what John was preaching.

Yes he was. To be able to communicate (fellowship with) the Lord, we must confess our sins. Otherwise we are not IN fellowship.

When one has come to repentance, you are submitting yourself to God.

Please define repentance.

Because as I've said, it's at that point that you try and put his will over your own.

Again, if you are "trying", that is the flesh, your own will trying.

I used to believe as you did. I was brought up to believe that.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. I followed your admission about your younger years, and you had big problems. Are you saying what I've been saying is what got you all messed up when you were young??

But we see things differently. And that's fine.

I've given you clearly stated Scripture. How do you see them so differently?

We all have to sail our own ships on this journey. I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one. It wouldn't be the first time for me on this board and I'm sure it won't be the last

I'd like to know what you think my error is. btw, you haven't shared any Scripture to support your own views, other than Eph 5:19.

JulieB67 · Jun 5, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Please what "apostasy" means. And don't say "fall away". Let's not go in circles.

Sorry, for context purposes, Paul has written the 1st letter to the Thessalonians. Afterwards there was some confusion about the timing of Christ's return. So Paul writes in his second letter,

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

The phrase "falling away" is Greek word 646: apostasia- defection from truth, falling away, forsake.

People will be defecting and forsaking the truth.

FreeGrace2 said:
No, he's not. There are no words that connect v.19 to v.18

Reading it connects them, there's context there.

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

That verse should not be read by itself. If it did, it would read "Speak" You disagree that's fine.

FreeGrace2 said:
Fellowship is being in communion with each other.

Again, I gave you the Greek meaning. It is a partnership and communication. John was talking about our fellowship with Him, not each other. I try and follow the scriptures.

I can go right to the throne in prayer through Christ's name.

Not unless you've been forgiven and cleansed through confession of your sin. Psa 66:18 says "If I regard sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened;"

iow, when OUT OF fellowship, the Lord doesn't hear our prayers.

Exactly, I haven't disagreed with that. Quite the opposite, that's mainly my point.

Please define repentance.

I've explained it many times already.

It mean's to think differently. A change of heart if you will. A reversal of thought.

I'll even give you the Greek for repent and repentance

Repent 3340 metanoeo - to think differently, or afterwards ie reconsider, repent.

Repentence -3341 metanoia -compunction (for guilt including reformation), reversal of [anothers decision] repentance.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. I followed your admission about your younger years, and you had big problems. Are you saying what I've been saying is what got you all messed up when you were young??

I'm talking about the subject of this thread, I used to believe in Once saved always saved.

And no, I didn't have big problems I grew up in church, got saved, etc but lived my life according to my will instead of God's. As we've both stated, if we have sin in our heart God won't hear us. I'm talking normal sin, certain movies, tv, obsessions, anything that puts God in the rear window is sin basiclly. I have repented and confessed all of that to God, he knows.

I'd like to know what you think my error is

It's not a matter of error. If we can't put God first, or at least try to, how can we call ourselves a Christian? Again, you think a person can put themselves first for the rest of their lives and believe they are saved, I don't.

TibiasDad · Jun 5, 2020

BibleBeliever1611 said:
Many people believe that after a person gets saved, they will have a "changed life" without exceptions. For example, if you were an alcoholic before salvation, then after salvation you must quit drinking (or at least quit drinking "much," or quit drinking "habitually" or something like that). And if your lifestyle didn't change after your salvation, then that proves that your salvation was fake and you were never saved in the first place. And those same people seem to believe that even true believers will go to hell if they didn't have the changed life that was required.

So my question is this: What is the exact minimum amount of change that there has to be in your life so that you can be qualified to be a "saved Christian"?

Maybe you would say: "No-one knows, no-one can know whether they are truly saved or not."

This is WRONG because the Bible says that we should be able to know that we have eternal life. It doesn't say that we can be "pretty sure;" it says that we can know.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. - 1 John 5:13

As a side note I would say that this doctrine of a changed life feels like works salvation. Of course the people who believe in it deny that it is works salvation, but that's precisely what it is. If I had to constantly worry if my life has changed enough to make me qualified to be saved, then I would try to change my life to prove that I really am saved. And then it would feel identical to works salvation. It would feel like trying to work my way to heaven. Salvation is not supposed to be a life-long process, it's supposed to be one moment in time. Just like the thief on the cross was saved in just one moment.

"Oh but you will automatically turn from sin through the power of the Holy Spirit!"

How much? Even great people like the apostle Paul still committed sin after they were saved. King Saul even committed suicide, for crying out loud. Purposefully killing yourself is super wicked, but King Saul still went to heaven.

Scripture clearly says that if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation, the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Cor 5:17) What changes to establish this newness of this new creation? Certainly, there is now spiritual life instead of death; this means a change in the status of relationship between God and man, man is no longer an enemy but is now a child and a friend.

Regarding a change of behavior, Paul also tells us that Christ "condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit...Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." (Rom 8:3-4, 12-13) Thus, the behavior of the one who is "in Christ" is enabled to be different by what Christ has done and thus the behavior of the one "in Christ" is expected to be very different from what is was previously.

Now, there is no specific timeline of what any particular believer should look like at two months or six months or a year, but there is an expectation that given proper encouragement and discipling there should be a marked change in the new believer's life.

In short, if someone is truly a new creation, then their desires are changed and a change of behavior will follow suit.

Doug

BibleBeliever1611 · Jun 6, 2020

TibiasDad said:
Scripture clearly says that if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation, the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Cor 5:17)

Sure, but the Bible also commands Christians to walk in the newness of life. It's not like you will automatically turn from all of your sins and do all the right things like a robot or something. That's because the old man did not become a new creature, and the old man still exists after salvation. And we need to put off the old man and put on the new man as the Bible calls it. But what if you don't walk in the newness of life? Then guess what, your life will not change.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. - Romans 6:4

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. - Romans 6:6

Paul is saying here that we should not serve sin, but then in the next chapter Paul actually admits that he himself still serves sin. So even one of the greatest Christians in the Bible still struggled with sin after salvation.

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:25

FreeGrace2 · Jun 6, 2020

JulieB67 said:
Sorry, for context purposes, Paul has written the 1st letter to the Thessalonians. Afterwards there was some confusion about the timing of Christ's return. So Paul writes in his second letter,

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

The phrase "falling away" is Greek word 646: apostasia- defection from truth, falling away, forsake.

Based on these 3 verses, do you see the order of the Tribulation and the rapture?

People will be defecting and forsaking the truth.

Do you believe apostacy results in loss of salvation?

Reading it connects them, there's context there.

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

That verse should not be read by itself. If it did, it would read "Speak" You disagree that's fine.

I never said v.19 starts with "speak". So why do you say what you do?

What I pointed out is that there are NO WORDS that suggest, much less SAY, that psalms, hymns, songs, and singing result in being filled with the Spirit.

Again, I gave you the Greek meaning. It is a partnership and communication. John was talking about our fellowship with Him, not each other. I try and follow the scriptures.

Then you shouldn't be disagreeing with my points. They come straight from Scripture. You have 't shown otherwise.

Exactly, I haven't disagreed with that. Quite the opposite, that's mainly my point.

Great. But, you previously said you disagreed with my view. So, which view is that?

It mean's to think differently. A change of heart if you will. A reversal of thought.

Good. That is what repentance means. And this isn't a one time deal. Since believers will sin, they need a change of heart every time they sin.

I'm talking about the subject of this thread, I used to believe in Once saved always saved.

I recall a recent post of yours where you claimed you do believe that. So, which is it? And if you believe that salvation can be lost, which verse convinces you of that?

And no, I didn't have big problems I grew up in church, got saved, etc but lived my life according to my will instead of God's.

Well, that's a big problem, all by itself. So, yes you DID have big problems then.

As we've both stated, if we have sin in our heart God won't hear us. I'm talking normal sin, certain movies, tv, obsessions, anything that puts God in the rear window is sin basiclly. I have repented and confessed all of that to God, he knows.

Are you suggesting that you no longer sin? That's my take from your statement.

It's not a matter of error. If we can't put God first, or at least try to, how can we call ourselves a Christian? Again, you think a person can put themselves first for the rest of their lives and believe they are saved, I don't.

So, which verse tells you that if you put yourself first, you lose salvation? Yes, believers will sin. And one sin is self centeredness. So you are basically claiming that certain sins will result in loss of salvation. So, did Christ die for all sins, or just some sins, and not the ones that offend you?

TibiasDad · Jun 6, 2020

BibleBeliever1611 said:
Sure, but the Bible also commands Christians to walk in the newness of life. It's not like you will automatically turn from all of your sins and do all the right things like a robot or something. That's because the old man did not become a new creature, and the old man still exists after salvation. And we need to put off the old man and put on the new man as the Bible calls it. But what if you don't walk in the newness of life? Then guess what, your life will not change.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. - Romans 6:4

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. - Romans 6:6

Paul is saying here that we should not serve sin, but then in the next chapter Paul actually admits that he himself still serves sin. So even one of the greatest Christians in the Bible still struggled with sin after salvation.

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:25

I don't believe I said anything contrary to any of this; I only assert that, given a true conversion experience, there is a new desire and ability to keep the righteous requirements of the law, and given proper discipleship, there should be, and usually is, a marked change in behavioral habits.

Secondly, regarding your reference to Romans 7:25, I do not ascribe to Romans 7 depicting the life of a mature believer; especially one like Paul! I don't think he is even talking about a believer at any particular point in his experience; the language does not support the way Paul describes the state of the believer in Romans 6 and 8.

Doug

JulieB67 · Jun 6, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Based on these 3 verses, do you see the order of the Tribulation and the rapture?

I don't believe in a rapture, I believe Christ comes at the 7th trump, which is the last trump and the trump of God. And no, I don't want to debate about that on this thread. There are other threads for that. Apostasy is for believers, not unbelievers. They have nothing to fall away from.

That's another doctrine I "used" to believe in before I actually read the bible. But again, not the thread for that.

FreeGrace2 said:
I never said v.19 starts with "speak". So why do you say what you do?

What I pointed out is that there are NO WORDS that suggest, much less SAY, that psalms, hymns, songs, and singing result in being filled with the Spirit.

Paul is continuing a thought from 18 to 19, I said, if we read 19 by itself it wouldn't make sense. He is telling us to fill up the spirit with those things. Again, you disagree that's fine.

FreeGrace2 said:
Then you shouldn't be disagreeing with my points. They come straight from Scripture. You have 't shown otherwise.

Again, I disagree, And I have posted scriptures.

I John 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

As I said, this verse is about fellowship with Him, not each other. That is a scripture you disagree with apparently because that's what you implied to me with this,

FreeGrace2 said:
I asked if you know the difference between fellowship and relationship, and apparently you do not. We are in relationship with the Lord through faith in Christ. That is permanent.

Fellowship is being in communion with each other. Like spouses in fellowship. There is no communion when OUT OF fellowship with each other.

I just gave you the scripture again. And you apparently disagree.

I even gave you the real meaning of the word as applied to that verse,

Fellowship in the Greek -From koinonos; partnership, i.e. (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction -- (to) communicate(-ation), communion, (contri-)distribution, fellowship.

Fellowship is a partnership and communication with God. If we have repented and confess our sins, we can go right to the throne. That veil was ripped top to bottom so we coud do so. Yes, we can have fellowship with other people, but that specific verse is about our fellowship with Him.

FreeGrace2 said:
Great. But, you previously said you disagreed with my view. So, which view is that?

I disagree that one can walk away from Christ and will still be saved. If they deny Christ, he will deny them.

FreeGrace2 said:
I recall a recent post of yours where you claimed you do believe that. So, which is it? And if you believe that salvation can be lost, which verse convinces you of that?

Again, I believe once a person as truly repented and continues to try and sanctify themselves (growing into a mature Christian) they can be secure in their salvation.

FreeGrace2 said:
Are you suggesting that you no longer sin? That's my take from your statement.

Of course not, but repentance means you "don't" want to sin anymore. And when you do fall short, you confess, ask for forgiveness and go on in your journey continuing to grow as a Christian.

FreeGrace2 said:
So, which verse tells you that if you put yourself first, you lose salvation? Yes, believers will sin. And one sin is self centeredness. So you are basically claiming that certain sins will result in loss of salvation. So, did Christ die for all sins, or just some sins, and not the ones that offend you?

Christ died for the sins of the world. Again, he didn't fail. And the salvation is always there but If a person thinks they are saved and continues to lead a carnal life without repenting at some point, I don't think imo, they were truly "saved" to begin with. I'm not talking about sincere real believers. God knows the heart and if you are sincere, he will finish the work he starts in someone. If someone never repents how can God do anything for that person?

Ultimately God is the judge and love does cover a multitude of sin. But a person that willfully walks away and doesn't come back? There remains no other sacrifice for sins as taught in Hebrews 10:26

But I think I've come to the end of this debate becaus I don't think it's going to go anywhere. We even believe differently about the rapture, that's my main point of study, so I am firmly planted about my beliefs about Christ's return (Day of the Lord/Lord's Day. But saying that, we are probably are not going to agree on quite a bit of things.

But I'm not offended by our posts and I hope you aren't as well

Soyeong · Jun 6, 2020

BibleBeliever1611 said:
Many people believe that after a person gets saved, they will have a "changed life" without exceptions. For example, if you were an alcoholic before salvation, then after salvation you must quit drinking (or at least quit drinking "much," or quit drinking "habitually" or something like that). And if your lifestyle didn't change after your salvation, then that proves that your salvation was fake and you were never saved in the first place. And those same people seem to believe that even true believers will go to hell if they didn't have the changed life that was required.

So my question is this: What is the exact minimum amount of change that there has to be in your life so that you can be qualified to be a "saved Christian"?

Maybe you would say: "No-one knows, no-one can know whether they are truly saved or not."

This is WRONG because the Bible says that we should be able to know that we have eternal life. It doesn't say that we can be "pretty sure;" it says that we can know.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. - 1 John 5:13

As a side note I would say that this doctrine of a changed life feels like works salvation. Of course the people who believe in it deny that it is works salvation, but that's precisely what it is. If I had to constantly worry if my life has changed enough to make me qualified to be saved, then I would try to change my life to prove that I really am saved. And then it would feel identical to works salvation. It would feel like trying to work my way to heaven. Salvation is not supposed to be a life-long process, it's supposed to be one moment in time. Just like the thief on the cross was saved in just one moment.

"Oh but you will automatically turn from sin through the power of the Holy Spirit!"

How much? Even great people like the apostle Paul still committed sin after they were saved. King Saul even committed suicide, for crying out loud. Purposefully killing yourself is super wicked, but King Saul still went to heaven.

If our obedience to God's law were for God's good, then it would be about trying to be good enough to earn our salvation through our works, however, it was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so our obedience is instead about putting our faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live, which is why Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23). Our actions reveal our believes and our beliefs are expressed by our actions, which is why James said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works (James 2:17-18), so doing good works in obedience to God's will is what faith looks like. Every example of someone living by faith in the Bible is also and example of someone living in obedience to God's will, such as with the example listed in Hebrews 11, where as disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith, such as in Numbers 5:6. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, in Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what God's law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to do good works in obedience to His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation, and participating in that training does nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it looks like to receive it. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God’s law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God’s law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God’s law looks like. Furthermore, Titus 2:14 says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in Jesus, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law and will not return to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from.

BibleBeliever1611 said:
It could be that the person believed in a wrong gospel. You have to believe in the right gospel to be saved. The Bible is very serious on the issue of different gospels.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. - Galatians 1:8-9

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and breaking the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what they should be repenting from doing, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to the nations before the end (Matthew 24:12-14). The same goes for Acts 2:38 for how Peter’s audience knew what sin is when he told them to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. In Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture is written for our instruction and in 15:18-19, his Gospel message involved bringing the Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, so he was on the same page as Jesus about teaching repentance from our sins.

BibleBeliever1611 said:
Now here's an even scarier thought. Take a look at the following scripture.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." - Matthew 7:21-23

Those people believed that their wonderful works was a proof of salvation. But God sent them to hell. This is why you have to believe in Jesus and not in yourself.

Imagine that God asked you why he should let you into heaven. What would you answer him?

God's law is His instructions for how to know and be known by Him. The Father has straightforwardly made His will known through His law (Psalms 40:8) and in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said only those who do the will of the Father's will enter the kingdom of heaven. Furthermore, Jesus said that he would tell those who were workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so Jesus was certainly not speaking against doing works. In 1 John 2:3, those who say that they know Christ, but do not obey his commands are liars, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is defined as the transgression of God's law and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen nor known him. In 1 John 4:8, whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, and in 1 Corinthians 8:3, if anyone loves God, he is known by him. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter into eternal life, then obey the commandments, and in John 17:3, eternal life is to know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken in God's law, but in 9:24, those who know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 6, 2020

JulieB67 said:
I don't believe in a rapture, I believe Christ comes at the 7th trump, which is the last trump and the trump of God.

I'm not going to argue about that either, but the "last trump" would be after the 7th trump. 23 Thess 2:1-3 proves that what is called the rapture is Christ's Second Coming.

Apostasy is for believers, not unbelievers. They have nothing to fall away from.

Oh, yes they do. They fall away from the faith. They fall away from God's protective grace in their life, meaning they will be vulnerable to the devil's attacks. They fall away from earned eternal reward.

Paul is continuing a thought from 18 to 19, I said, if we read 19 by itself it wouldn't make sense. He is telling us to fill up the spirit with those things. Again, you disagree that's fine.

You haven't proven that there are ANY words that show that v.19 is the MEANS of being filled with the Spirit.

I said:
"Then you shouldn't be disagreeing with my points. They come straight from Scripture. You haven't shown otherwise."

Again, I disagree, And I have posted scriptures.

Disagreeing doesn't prove anything. And you haven't posted anything that refutes what I have posted.

I John 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

As I said, this verse is about fellowship with Him, not each other.

Of course. I haven't been discussing fellowship between believers. I've always noted the fellowship WITH the Lord.

That is a scripture you disagree with apparently because that's what you implied to me with this,

I said this:
"I asked if you know the difference between fellowship and relationship, and apparently you do not. We are in relationship with the Lord through faith in Christ. That is permanent.

Fellowship is being in communion with each other. Like spouses in fellowship. There is no communion when OUT OF fellowship with each other."

First, I NEVER said or hinted that I disagreed with 1 John 1:6. You have concluded wrongly. What I said was an EXAMPLE of what fellowship is. I used a human relationship (that is permanent) to show that fellowship isn't always the case in a permanent relationship. Do you think that you are IN fellowship with the Lord when you sin??

I just gave you the scripture again. And you apparently disagree.

I disagre with how you interpret the verse.

I even gave you the real meaning of the word as applied to that verse,

Fellowship in the Greek -From koinonos; partnership, i.e. (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction -- (to) communicate(-ation), communion, (contri-)distribution, fellowship.

Fellowship is a partnership and communication with God. If we have repented and confess our sins, we can go right to the throne. That veil was ripped top to bottom so we coud do so. Yes, we can have fellowship with other people, but that specific verse is about our fellowship with Him.

I don't disagree with any of this. I will await your answer to my question about whether you think you are IN fellowship with the Lord when you sin.

I disagree that one can walk away from Christ and will still be saved.

It's fine to disagree with a statement, as long as you can provide a verse that backs up your disagreement. Do you have any?

If they deny Christ, he will deny them.

Do you have any idea where that came from? Do you even understand what Paul meant?

2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

OK, now for the explanation of this color coded verse.

The red words set up a conditional clause. Enduring refers to staying faithful, and obedient.

The blue words are the consequences of enduring; reigning with Him. This refers to eternal rewards that are earned by enduring during our life on earth.

The green words set up another conditional clause. Denying refers to apostasy, disobedience, lack of faith, etc. "Denying" is the opposite of "enduring". Paul is contrasting them.

The purple words are the consequences of denying; the Lord will deny the believer the eternal reward of reigning with Him.

It should be obvious from the principle of CONTEXT that denying, being the opposite of enduring, results in the opposite of eternal rewards; that being the denial of them.

Again, I believe once a person as truly repented and continues to try and sanctify themselves (growing into a mature Christian) they can be secure in their salvation.

So basically, your view seems to be that you HAVE TO work at your salvation in order to keep it. Interesting. What verse taught you that?

Of course not, but repentance means you "don't" want to sin anymore.

Did you ever read Romans 7? Paul sure didn't either, but it is obvious from what he wrote that he still struggled with his sinful nature. You seem to think this is a one and done kind of thing.

And when you do fall short, you confess, ask for forgiveness and go on in your journey continuing to grow as a Christian.

Why do you "ask forgiveness" when 1 John 1:9 says nothing about asking for forgiveness? Do you not believe what John wrote about how to be forgiven?

Christ died for the sins of the world. Again, he didn't fail.

But your view suggests that He did fail to die for certain sins, like self centeredness. You claimed in an earlier post that those who are self centered rather than centered on Christ aren't saved.

And the salvation is always there but If a person thinks they are saved and continues to lead a carnal life without repenting at some point, I don't think imo, they were truly "saved" to begin with.

You have no right to insert your own opinion into what the Word of God says.

Jesus said, "I give them (his sheep, believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish" in John 10:28. It seems to me that you don't really believe what He said.

I'm not talking about sincere real believers. God knows the heart and if you are sincere, he will finish the work he starts in someone. If someone never repents how can God do anything for that person?

Oh, He can to plenty. But it seems you have never been taught about God's divine discipline, which is painful btw. Heb 12:11 says so. We have been given some examples of God's discipline, too.

1 Cor 5:5 - and this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

1 Tim 1:19,20
19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith.
20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

Neither of these examples sound like a mere slap on the hand to me. God's discipline can have severe consequences, such as:

1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep (physical death).

I think you aren't giving God any credit for His children who rebel.

Ultimately God is the judge and love does cover a multitude of sin. But a person that willfully walks away and doesn't come back?

Same answer: God's painful discipline. The same as with human parents, which Heb 12 used as an example.

There remains no other sacrifice for sins as taught in Hebrews 10:26

Go back to v.18 and you'll find the same words. But it seems you are missing the whole point.

But I think I've come to the end of this debate becaus I don't think it's going to go anywhere.

So far, you haven't supported any of your claims or views with Scripture that says what you claim.

We even believe differently about the rapture, that's my main point of study, so I am firmly planted about my beliefs about Christ's return (Day of the Lord/Lord's Day.

And in this very post, I PROVED when it will occur. It's NOT after the 7th trumpet judgment.

But saying that, we are probably are not going to agree on quite a bit of things.

But I'm not offended by our posts and I hope you aren't as well

I'm never offended. I am interested in WHY believers believe the things they do. Which is why I keep asking for verses that you think support your views.

JulieB67 · Jun 6, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Oh, yes they do. They fall away from the faith. They fall away from God's protective grace in their life, meaning they will be vulnerable to the devil's attacks. They fall away from earned eternal reward.

You're misunderstanding me. I said the falling away (apostasy) is for believers that have fallen away from their faith.

"And in this very post, I PROVED when it will occur. It's NOT after the 7th trumpet judgment"

You might have proved it to yourself but not to me. There are only 7 trumps in the end times. As I"ve said, this has been my usual main point of study for the last 20 years so I am firmly grounded in my beliefs. I have read all of the scripture and nothing tells me that Christ is coming back before the tribulation. The Thessalonians themselves were confused and so Paul had to write a second letter and told them what would have to happen before Christ returns. He's telling you don't be confused about 1st Thessalonians. That's the verses that people claim is a rapture. He tells us to beware and not be deceived by "any means" Christ even states he's coming back "immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24. And he has foretold us all things. He never once taught a rapture.
Anyone can pull a verse here or there and make it fit their beliefs. But when the bible is taken as a whole, chapter by chapter and verse by verse as to not lose context, it's not biblial. I used to believe in that as well. Why would I stop believing? Because it's not biblical.

The word left behind doctrine is all about the word "taken" and the word taken in the Greek doesn't even mean removed and so on.,...and see I am starting to debate and I'll stop.

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm not going to argue about that either, but the "last trump" would be after the 7th trump. 23 Thess 2:1-3 proves that what is called the rapture is Christ's Second Coming.

Yes, 2nd Thessalonians is talking about the second coming I do agree with that. But as I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 6, 2020

JulieB67 said:
You might have proved it to yourself but not to me. There are only 7 trumps in the end times. As I"ve said, this has been my usual main point of study for the last 20 years so I am firmly grounded in my beliefs.

That, alone, doesn't prove anything. The order of the second coming and the "gathering" is AFTER the Tribulation. 2 Thess 2:1-3 says so plainly. But you are free to make your own decision as what to believe. I will stay with 2 Thess 2:1-3.

Not only that, the 2 major texts on the pre-Trib rapture are 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4. However, Matt 24:29ff is considered a Second Coming text. Yet, all 3 texts have 3 things in common: a trumpet, clouds, and a gathering. Pretty easy to figure out.

I have read all of the scripture and nothing tells me that Christ is coming back before the tribulation.

Correct.

The Thessalonians themselves were confused and so Paul had to write a second letter and told them what would have to happen before Christ returns. He's telling you don't be confused about 1st Thessalonians. That's the verses that people claim is a rapture. He tells us to beware and not be deceived by "any means" Christ even states he's coming back "immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24. And he has foretold us all things. He never once taught a rapture.

Jesus used the word "gather". But certainly not before the Tribulation.

Anyone can pull a verse here or there and make it fit their beliefs. But when the bible is taken as a whole, chapter by chapter and verse by verse as to not lose context, it's not biblial. I used to believe in that as well. Why would I stop believing? Because it's not biblical.

Loss of salvation is not biblical, but you believe that. So, what gives?

Yes, 2nd Thessalonians is talking about the second coming I do agree with that. But as I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Regarding the "rapture" being before the Tribulation, we are not in disagreement. I do disagree that the 7th trumpet judgment is when Christ returns. That would have Him returning in the MIDDLE of the Tribulation, since the trumpet judgments are within the first half of the tribulation.

iow, the "last trumpet" occurs AFTER the 7 trumpet judgments. Much after.

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