Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

Shrewd Manager said:

Um, earth is flat. If the unanimity of scripture on this issue isn't good enough for you, perhaps you'll investigate all the great empirical science around which proves it. Water always finds its level. Find me any body of standing water with a curve in it. And why not check out all the optical, laser, radio and other line-of-sight electromagnetic beam experiments which cement it.

Really brother, it gets so much better when you just accept God's truth.

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The unanimity of Scritpure?

Major1 said:

Luke 16 is NOT a parable.

In an attempt to sidestep the Biblical doctrine of eternal judgment in hellfire, certain groups have resorted to watering down one of the clearest and most graphic passages of hell. Such people say that Luke 16:19-31—the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus—is merely a “parable,” figurative language rather than literal truth.

Luke 16:19 does not begin with, “And he speak this parable unto them….” If the account of the rich man and Lazarus were a parable, the Holy Spirit should have made sure to notify the audience that this “graphic story” was merely a parable and not literal truth. Remember, this passage has been used for centuries to defend the reality of eternal hellfire. The implications are quite severe if we take Luke 16:19-31 as literal truth. Should not the Holy Spirit, having foreseen the alleged “misusage” of the passage in the coming centuries, made every attempt in the context to indicate that it was symbolic and nonliteral? You can search Luke chapter 16 for the rest of eternity, my dear readers, and never see where Jesus clearly indicated verses 19 through 31 as figurative .
Is Luke 16:19-31 a parable?

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What about all of the other passages that Christians are confused about? Should the Holy Spirit address those too? Your interpretation of the passage is contrary to Scripture. How do you explain that?

Major1 said:

Revelation 20:10 ......
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

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Forever and ever isn't translated properly. It should read ages of the ages.

Butch5 said:

Forever and ever isn't translated properly. It should read ages of the ages.

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And you know this how? Can you quote anything written by a lettered scholar which supports this?
In Hebrew there were no superlatives for emphasis a word was repeated as in 1 Chron 29:10. In Hebrew it reads ועד־עולם/w'ad olam which is translated ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος καὶ ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος/apo tou aionos kai eos tou aionos in the 225 BC LXX.
In the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation it is "for ever and ever"

Butch5 said:

Forever and ever isn't translated properly. It should read ages of the ages.

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"Origen, the greatest exegete of the early Church, was well aware of the polysemy of aión and its adjectival forms. In Hom. in Ex. 6.13 he writes: “Whenever Scripture says, ‘from aeon to aeon,’ the reference is to an interval of time, and it is clear that it will have an end. And if Scripture says, ‘in another aeon,’ what is indicated is clearly a longer time, and yet an end is still fixed. And when the ‘aeons of the aeons’ are mentioned, a certain limit is again posited, perhaps unknown to us, but surely established by God” (quoted in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p. 161). Sometimes Eternity Ain’t Forever: Aiónios and the Universalist Hope

"(13) "Lord, you who rule from age to age and beyond."97 As often as "from age to age" is said a length of time is indicated but there is an end. And if Scripture says "into another age", certainly something longer is indicated, but an end is set. And as often as "the ages of the ages" is mentioned some termination is indicated, although perhaps unknown to us, nevertheless established by God. But Scripture adds in this passage: "and beyond." No sense of any termination or end remains. For at whatever time you think there could be an end, the word of the prophet always says to you: "and beyond", as if it should speak to you and say, "Do you think the Lord will reign into the age of the age?": "and beyond". Do you think he will reign "into the ages of the ages?": "and beyond." And whatever you say about the duration of his reign the prophet always says to you: "and beyond"."

97. Ex 15.18

(The Fathers of the Church: Origen Homilies on Genesis & Exodus, Translated by Ronald E. Heine, The Catholic University of America Press, 1982, First paperback reprint 2002, 422 pgs, pages 298-299). https://www.amazon.com/71-Homilies-Genesis-Fathers-Patristic/dp/081321324X

Homilies on Genesis and Exodus on JSTOR

12 points re forever and ever being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

"Concerning “Hades” BDAG 19 s.v. ᾅδης 1 and 2 states: “Orig. proper noun, god of the nether world, ‘Hades’, then the nether world, Hades as place of the dead, Ac 2:27, 31 (Ps 15:10; Eccl 9:10; PGM 1, 179; 16, 8; Philo, Mos. 1, 195; Jos., Bell. 1, 596, Ant. 6, 332). Of Jonah’s fish ἐκ τοῦ κατωτάτου ᾅδου. In the depths, contrasted w. heaven ἕως (τοῦ) ᾅδου Mt 11:23; Lk 10:15 (PsSol 15:10; cp.; Is 14:11, 15); ἐν τῷ ᾅδῃ 16:23; ἐν ῝Αιδου ApcPt Rainer. Accessible by gates (but the pl. is also used [e.g. Hom., X., Ael. Aristid. 47, 20 K.=23 p. 450 D.] when only one gate is meant), hence πύλαι ᾅδου (Il. 5, 646; Is 38:10; Wsd 16:13; 3 Macc 5:51; Pss. Sol. 16:2. – Lucian, Menipp. 6 the magicians can open τοῦ ῝Αιδου τὰς πύλας and conduct people in and out safely) Mt 16:18…locked ἔχω τὰς κλεῖς τοῦ θανάτου καὶ τοῦ ᾅδου Rv 1:18 (the genitives are either obj. [Ps.-Apollod. 3, 12, 6, 10 Aeacus, the son of Zeus holds the κλεῖς τοῦ ῝Αιδου; SEG VIII, 574, 3 (III ad) τῷ τὰς κλεῖδας ἔχοντι τῶν καθ᾿ ῝Αιδου (restored)] or possess.; in the latter case death and Hades are personif.; s. 2)…Hades personif.…w. θάνατος (cp. Is 28:15; Job 38:17…) Rv 6:8; 20:13f.”

NETBible: Revelation 1

Butch5 said:

What about all of the other passages that Christians are confused about? Should the Holy Spirit address those too? Your interpretation of the passage is contrary to Scripture. How do you explain that?

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I explain it by a long time of Bible study. AND, it is not my interpretation but instead it is simply my understanding of what is actually said "Contextually".

YOU or anyone else do not have to accept my understanding any more than I have to accept yours. However, I can supply many reasons why I believe as I do. Can you do that my brother???????

1.
The story is never called a parable. The other stories of Jesus’ are designated as parables, such as the sower and the seed; the prosperous farmer; the barren fig tree; and the wedding feast. They ALL begin with the phrase...….
"Jesus (He) spake by a parable".

2.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of a person. Such specificity would set it apart from ordinary parables, in which the characters are not named.

3.
This particular story does not fit the definition of a parable, which is a presentation of a spiritual truth using an earthly illustration. The story of the rich man and Lazarus presents spiritual truth directly, with no earthly metaphor. The setting for most of the story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables, which unfold in earthly contexts.

Butch5 said:

Forever and ever isn't translated properly. It should read ages of the ages.

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In the over 50 translations of the Bible found all over the world, "Ages of the Ages" is found in only TWO.

How do YOU explain such a preponderance of evidence?

YOU as a Universalist believer have believe what others have told you without YOU doinf the Bible study to show yourself approved, a workman of God. YOU argue that the Greek word that is translated into eternal is aionion.

The Greek grammar demands that CONTEXT determines the actual meaning of the word.

YOU argue and believe that age implies that it is a period of time that comes to and end. However, to really examine if the universalists interpretation of age carries weight, we ought to be consistent with their application and meaning of the word "age." Therefore if we apply YOUR argument consistently and CONTEXTUALLY we see the real answer...….

Greek word "aion" used of hell

1. Matthew 25:46.....
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

2. 2 Thessalonians 1:9...…..
"these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord."

3. Matthew 25:41 ……..
"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

4. Jude 13 …….
"for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever".

But as it is with everything in life, What you believe is completely up to you my brother.

ClementofA said:

Huh? What you think the word "end" means has no relevance to what i posted.

And it is - you - who just posted a misleading translation of Lk.1:33. Here is a proper literal translation from this Greek-English Interlinear:

Luke 1:33 Greek Text Analysis

Once again you post a translation that deceives the masses.

Nothing you posted disproves what i said:

Since Christ's reign ends as per 1 Cor.15:24-28, His reign for the ages (Lk.1:33) will end. So "for the ages" (Lk.1:33) is finite. Compare "ages" in Rev.14:11; 20:10.

1 Cor.15:24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

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NONSENSE. The same old worn out argument.

Major1 said:

I explain it by a long time of Bible study. AND, it is not my interpretation but instead it is simply my understanding of what is actually said "Contextually".

YOU or anyone else do not have to accept my understanding any more than I have to accept yours. However, I can supply many reasons why I believe as I do. Can you do that my brother???????

1.
The story is never called a parable. The other stories of Jesus’ are designated as parables, such as the sower and the seed; the prosperous farmer; the barren fig tree; and the wedding feast. They ALL begin with the phrase...….
"Jesus (He) spake by a parable".

2.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of a person. Such specificity would set it apart from ordinary parables, in which the characters are not named.

3.
This particular story does not fit the definition of a parable, which is a presentation of a spiritual truth using an earthly illustration. The story of the rich man and Lazarus presents spiritual truth directly, with no earthly metaphor. The setting for most of the story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables, which unfold in earthly contexts.

Click to expand...

The range of meaning of the term “parable” =

Gk. parabole parabol in the New Testament closely parallels that of the Hebrew masal [l;v’m] in the Old Testament and related Hebrew literature.

As well as referring to narrative parables, the term identifies similitudes ( Matt 13:33 ; )

Allegories ( Ezek 17:2 ; 24:3 ; Matthew 13:18 Matthew 13:24 Matthew 13:36 ),

Proverbs ( Proverbs 1:1 Proverbs 1:6 ; Mark 3:23 ),

Riddles ( Psalm 78:2 ; Mark 7:17 ),

Symbols or types ( Heb 9:9 )

"Parable" is a general term for a figurative saying.

ClementofA said:

Brother Slick states from the same article you quote:

"To get around the problem of the English Bibles translating Greek words into "eternal," "forever," and forevermore" when describing fire (Matt. 18:8) or torment (Rev. 20:10), the universalists go to the Greek. The Greek word that is translated into eternal is

"aionion." It comes from the Greek root "aion" meaning "age." This fact combined with the various uses of Greek words derived from the root "aion," are what the universalists use to attempt to show that "aionion" does not always mean "eternal" but can refer to a finite period of time.

The truth is, they are right."

A look at the word "aionion" | CARM.org

"The truth is, they are right", Matt Slick affirms. Universalists are right. He agrees that the universalists are right that the Greek word aionios can, in certain contexts, "refer to a finite period of time".

So the context of each passage where aionios occurs, both the immediate & larger contexts of Scripture, should be considered to determine the meaning of aionios in any given verse.

Slick goes on to argue aionios means "eternal" in 1 Tim.6:16 where it is applied to God's dominion. He says His dominion is not finite, but eternal, so aionios there must mean "eternal". But that is faulty logic. God's dominion could be understood to occur both within long finite "eonian" periods like an eon or eons (unlike the brief dominions of human Kings & Emperors) or from finite "age to age" as well as being "eternal". All 1 Tim.6:16 may be saying is that His dominion is eonian - unlike that of earthly rulers - without even addressing the subject of its eternality. Just as Scripture elsewhere tells us He is the "Ancient of Days" & He is "from of old" & from "age to age". To say "God rules this day" does not deny He ruled yesterday or will rule tomorrow, or rule this present wicked eon, or the previous eon, or without end. When Scripture speaks of Satan as the "god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4), that doesn't deny that he was god of the previous eon or eons or that he won't rule for a short time at the end of the millenium.

1 Tim.6:16 Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (CLV)

Does this limit God sustaining a man only till old age & deny He will also sustain him in the after life:

Isa.46:4 Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you



Not necessarily. God's power is not only in eternity but also in eons (i.e. ages) when He works in people's lives & demonstrates His power through creation & the resurrection of Christ, etc. Here God Himself is said to be aionion & epiaionion(more than aionion):

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

Which is verified by the following:

https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf

The original Greek he copied from the tablet is given at the url above, along with an English translation which was, in this case, “eternal and more than eternal and almighty…”

“…The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D. ; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century, that is to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible about the time of Origen.” [page 275ff]

The same Greek word for "eternal" is used of the "eternal fire" (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom & was not "eternal" but temporary, i.e. finite.

The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

"He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[OLAM] hills do bow; His goings are as of old.[OLAM]" Hab.3:6, JPS

But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, Which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, Out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; Whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days. Micah 5:2

Matt Slick then goes on to list verses from mistranslated Bible versions that he assumes prove his case that aionios means "eternal" in such contexts. These verses have been addresed before. For some examples, see:

Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?

Spirit blasphemy in harmony with universal salvation:
Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin
Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?
http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...ves-holy-spirit-blasphemers.html#post53259200
Question about eternal damnation
God loves those who are blaspheming the Holy Spirit - Theology Online
the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...
Universalism in harmony with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...
The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism
The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism


the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

Could most modern translations be in error?

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Nothing new in your arguemnt to respond to.

FineLinen said:

The range of meaning of the term “parable” =

Gk. parabole parabol in the New Testament closely parallels that of the Hebrew masal [l;v’m] in the Old Testament and related Hebrew literature.

As well as referring to narrative parables, the term identifies similitudes ( Matt 13:33 ; )

Allegories ( Ezek 17:2 ; 24:3 ; Matthew 13:18 Matthew 13:24 Matthew 13:36 ),

Proverbs ( Proverbs 1:1 Proverbs 1:6 ; Mark 3:23 ),

Riddles ( Psalm 78:2 ; Mark 7:17 ),

Symbols or types ( Heb 9:9 )

"Parable" is a general term for a figurative saying.

Click to expand...

What you are proposing can not answer these facts...…..

1.
The story is never called a parable. The other stories of Jesus’ are designated as parables, such as the sower and the seed; the prosperous farmer; the barren fig tree; and the wedding feast. They ALL begin with the phrase...….
"Jesus (He) spake by a parable".

2.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of a person. Such specificity would set it apart from ordinary parables, in which the characters are not named.

3.
This particular story does not fit the definition of a parable, which is a presentation of a spiritual truth using an earthly illustration. The story of the rich man and Lazarus presents spiritual truth directly, with no earthly metaphor. The setting for most of the story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables, which unfold in earthly contexts.

ClementofA said:

Huh? What you think the word "end" means has no relevance to what i posted.

And it is - you - who just posted a misleading translation of Lk.1:33. Here is a proper literal translation from this Greek-English Interlinear:

Luke 1:33 Greek Text Analysis

Once again you post a translation that deceives the masses.

Nothing you posted disproves what i said:

Since Christ's reign ends as per 1 Cor.15:24-28, His reign for the ages (Lk.1:33) will end. So "for the ages" (Lk.1:33) is finite. Compare "ages" in Rev.14:11; 20:10.

1 Cor.15:24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

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Your lack of Bible understanding is obvious as well as depressing.

No matter what is show to you you always fall back on what you want to believe.

That is your choice to that. I disagree with you but it is your choice.

Remember that the Bible says that with knowledge comes great responsibility.

ClementofA said:

Are you not aware that Greek-English Interlinears back me up? And multiple - literal - translations? And early church fathers writings? And various scholars?

Of course i prefer the literal translations over those you posted that have changed the Words of God, the Scriptures, to conform to their own theological biases, thereby misleading & deceiving the masses.

The facts simply don't support your endless tortures churchianity dogma created by "the church" of "holy crusades", burning to death those who dared to think otherwise at the stake, Inquisitions torturing those labelled "heretics", & much more bad fruit.

And here is a chart comparing examples of literal & idio[ma]tic renderings:

"Idiomatic or Idiotic?
ORIGINAL.......................................ENGLISHED.... STULTIFIED
[The Bible is the]............................book of books..book and book
[The Lord's Coming is the]....................day of days....day and day
shir eshirim..................................song of songs..song and song
qdsh equdshim.................................holy of holies.holy and holy
kurios kuridn.................................Lord of lords..Lord and lord
oasileus basileon..............................King of kings.King and king
aionos tdn aidnon............................ eon of eons....ever and ever (R.V.) throughout all ages, world without end. (A.V.)"

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+Eternal+Torment+or+Universal+Reconciliation.pdf



Does "foreverS AND everS" Make Sense to You?
Does "foreverS AND everS" Make Sense to You?

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4

AIN -- AINIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Could most modern translations be in error?

Most Bible translations (=opinions of Scripture) be in error? (Micah, traditions, Gospels) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?


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"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Click to expand...

John 3:36.....
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM.”

Romans 1:18...…...
“Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM [Jesus Christ].”

Romans 2:5......….
“For THE WRATH OF GOD is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness ... But after thy hardness and impenitent heart TREASUREST UP UNTO THYSELF WRATH against the DAY OF WRATH and revelation of the righteous JUDGMENT OF GOD.”

Major1 said:

In the over 50 translations of the Bible found all over the world, "Ages of the Ages" is found in only TWO.

How do YOU explain such a preponderance of evidence?

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You big guy must learn the foundation for nouns and adjectives in Grammer 101.

The noun is the foundation upon which the adjective is based. The adjective does not hold greater force than the noun upon which it is rooted. NOT!

The root for aionios (the adjective), is rooted in the ages (the noun.)

Ages are NOT everlasting in the wildest stretch. All ages end, followed by additional ages, until time shall be no more.

Major1 said:

Greek word "aion" used of hell

1. Matthew 25:46.....
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Click to expand...

XYZ said:

It is repeating a line of argument that, so far, you have not even come close to successfully refuting.

Click to expand...

You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

XYZ said:

It is not an assumption that Matthew 25:46 employs a parallel, but a plain fact.

Click to expand...

Interpretation 1 above accepts the parallel of "eonian destinies". So the parallel there is not denied. Likewise interpretation 2 above acknowledging parallel perpetual destinies. But that the word perpetual can vary according to its subject.

XYZ said:

Let us look at this verse again:

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Click to expand...

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Major1 said:

John 3:36.....
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM.”

Romans 1:18...…...
“Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM [Jesus Christ].”

Romans 2:5......….
“For THE WRATH OF GOD is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness ... But after thy hardness and impenitent heart TREASUREST UP UNTO THYSELF WRATH against the DAY OF WRATH and revelation of the righteous JUDGMENT OF GOD.”

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The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/view/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…



*****************************************************************


I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

FineLinen said:

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FineLinen said:

You big guy must learn the foundation for nouns and adjectives in Grammer 101.
The noun is the foundation upon which the adjective is based. The adjective does not hold greater force than the noun upon which it is rooted. NOT!
The root for aionios (the adjective), is rooted in the ages (the noun.)
Ages are NOT everlasting in the wildest stretch. All ages end, followed by additional ages, until time shall be no more.

Click to expand...

That might be true in English Grammar 101 but NOT Geek Grammar 101.
Have you ever actually read a Greek grammar?
What you are promoting is a lexical fallacy know as the "root fallacy"
Root fallacy: assigning the (supposed) original meaning of a word to its usages throughout history;
Lexical Fallacies by Linguists
See e.g.
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” cannot mean eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
But neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..In 9 of these verses Jesus has defined “aionios” as eternal. Jesus used “aionios” twenty nine times. He never used “aionios to refer to anything that was clearly not eternal.
In 10 verses Paul has defined “aionios” as eternal.
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
In this verse the reign basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, which is is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.
In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

Der Alte said:

That might be true in English Grammar 101 but NOT Geek Grammar 101.
Have you ever actually read a Greek grammar?
What you are promoting is a lexical fallacy know as the "root fallacy"
Root fallacy: assigning the (supposed) original meaning of a word to its usages throughout history;
Lexical Fallacies by Linguists
See e.g.
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” cannot mean eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
But neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..In 9 of these verses Jesus has defined “aionios” as eternal. Jesus used “aionios” twenty nine times. He never used “aionios to refer to anything that was clearly not eternal.
In 10 verses Paul has defined “aionios” as eternal.
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.

[1] Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2] Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[3] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[4] 2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios] ​

In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[5] 2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens. ​

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[6] Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[8]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [/aionios]​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[9] Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios] ​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[10] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[11] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [aion] ​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, which is is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. ​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[14] Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life. ​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[15] 1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16] Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17] John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

[18] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[19] John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[20] Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[21] Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[22] John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[23] John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[24] John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[25] John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona] see death." ​

​

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I've already refuted the claims in that post & my refutations have never been refuted:

Matt Slick: "The truth is, they (universalists) are right"

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

LYING SCRIBES...AIONION:

Could most modern translations be in error?

What Does Aionios Mean? (part 2, It is wrong to define aionios based on aion)

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism


Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Der Alte said:

​

●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

​

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Der Alter said:

● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.[1]
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

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If it's the "most decisive way of negating something in the future", why didn't God use it to say something like "unbelievers will never (ou me) be saved? You shot your own doctrine in the foot with that one.

Der Alter said:

● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

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Powerful negatives never used of the damnation of the lost.

I rest my case.


Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Could most modern translations be in error?

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?