The police are fed up.

Tone

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Occams Barber

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I read your article and, to some extent I could accept that there is a lobby which sets out to maintain it's influence in managing the prison sector as a profitable enterprise.

I'm less certain about just how far the conspiracy goes, whether there is collusion with police unions and why the government would be interested in maintaining a high prison population. Then again I don't live in your country so I'm likely to be blissfully unaware.

Conspiracy theories are often built on a scrap of foundational truth in order to give the theory credence. I'm far too much of a sceptic to buy this particular conspiracy without a reasonable level of proof.

OB
 
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solid_core

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But I agree with part of your post. If we had high wages and universal employment, we would have way, way less crime.
USA have very high wages, compared to the rest of the world, but also very high crame rates compared to the rest of the world.
 
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Occams Barber

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What you've given me is what I would expect of a union in seeking better pay and conditions for it's members. The guard's union may or may not have excessive power however this doesn't establish a case that it is colluding with the government or prison owners to keep up incarceration rates.

BTW: I broadly agree with the objectives mentioned in the Abolition part of your Critical Resistance link.

While I don't have the solution, it seems to me that we are applying an archaic 'lock 'em up methodology to solve a 21 century problem. There has to be a better way.

OB
 
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agapelove

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I read your article and, to some extent I could accept that there is a lobby which sets out to maintain it's influence in managing the prison sector as a profitable enterprise.

I'm less certain about just how far the conspiracy goes, whether there is collusion with police unions and why the government would be interested in maintaining a high prison population. Then again I don't live in your country so I'm likely to be blissfully unaware.

Conspiracy theories are often built on a scrap of foundational truth in order to give the theory credence. I'm far too much of a sceptic to buy this particular conspiracy without a reasonable level of proof.

OB
Definitely not a conspiracy theory. It’s modern day slavery made possible by the 13th Amendment’s incarceration clause. They made an entire documentary on this titled “13th”.

 
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Occams Barber

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USA have very high wages, compared to the rest of the world, but also very high crame rates compared to the rest of the world.


Some US citizens have high wage rates.

For much of the population wages are comparatively low, conditions are basic and income/job security is minimal.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/gini-coefficient-by-country/
The United States has a Gini coefficient of 0.485, the highest it has been in 50 years according to the United States Census Bureau. In 2015, the top 1% of earners in the United States averaged 40 times more income than the bottom 90%. Like other countries with higher Gini coefficients, poverty is an increasing issue. In the U.S. about 33 million workers earn less than $10 per hour, putting a family of four below the poverty level. Many of these low-wage workers have no sick days, pension, or health insurance.
OB
 
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Paidiske

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USA have very high wages, compared to the rest of the world...

Is that true across the board? Even allowing for currency conversion rates, our minimum wage in Australia is nearly double yours.

While I don't have the solution, it seems to me that we are applying an archaic 'lock 'em up methodology to solve a 21 century problem.

My dad was a prison warden (here in Australia), and anecdotally there are many people in prison who, in a different era, would have been in mental institutions.
 
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solid_core

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Is that true across the board? Even allowing for currency conversion rates, our minimum wage in Australia is nearly double yours.
I do not live in the USA. You mean Australia has double minimum wage of Austria?
 
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Paidiske

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I do not live in the USA. You mean Australia has double minimum wage of Austria?

Sorry, my mistake. I assumed without checking that you were American (as most posters here are).
 
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solid_core

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Some US citizens have high wage rates.

For much of the population wages are comparatively low, conditions are basic and income/job security is minimal.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/gini-coefficient-by-country/
The United States has a Gini coefficient of 0.485, the highest it has been in 50 years according to the United States Census Bureau. In 2015, the top 1% of earners in the United States averaged 40 times more income than the bottom 90%. Like other countries with higher Gini coefficients, poverty is an increasing issue. In the U.S. about 33 million workers earn less than $10 per hour, putting a family of four below the poverty level. Many of these low-wage workers have no sick days, pension, or health insurance.
OB

I think that average American population is very wealthy compared to the rest of the world, money is not the problem.

Just look at cars and houses they have. Compare to small cars and old, small appartments of Europeans.
 
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Tom 1

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The way I see it the police are fed up with never seeing positive results from their work, and the abuse they suffer at the hands of the people they are sworn to protect. No wonder they themselves are often abusive. If anyone is to blame for the current crisis it is those who write the ineffective laws and programs that do little to reduce crime.

The aggressive approach to dealing with civilians in the US seems guaranteed to make it a miserable business for everyone involved. If you push people, they push back. In the several countries I’ve lived in the police have obviously been trained how to evaluate, de-escalate tense situations, not make hasty judgements, exercise caution and restraint etc. Looking at the various vids that have been circulating over the past few years, the cops there seem to have more in common with mafia enforcers than people hired to ‘protect and serve’. Who is training them to behave like thugs? If you push people , they push back. That’s just a basic reality, but whoever devises police training over there doesn’t seem to get that. The one time I visited the US even the airport cops were pointlessly aggressive.
 
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Occams Barber

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I think that average American population is very wealthy compared to the rest of the world, money is not the problem.

Just look at cars and houses they have. Compare to small cars and old, small appartments of Europeans.
I think you've been watching too much US TV.

OB
 
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solid_core

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I think you've been watching too much US TV.

OB
I do not watch the US TVs :)

But just compare street videos from California or New York with street videos from for example Poland.

And then compare their crime rates. Its about people, not about things they have. More about social security, mind set, monolithic culture...
 
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Occams Barber

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Definitely not a conspiracy theory. It’s modern day slavery made possible by the 13th Amendment’s incarceration clause. They made an entire documentary on this titled “13th”.


Thanks AL. Since it's long (1hr 40 min) I'll try to watch it this evening if its available on the Australian version of Netflix or Youtube.

OB
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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I think that average American population is very wealthy compared to the rest of the world, money is not the problem.

Just look at cars and houses they have. Compare to small cars and old, small appartments of Europeans.

Why do you think instead of just researching a bit ?

Instead of thinking that US is New York think that it is a continent. They have their own areas like Poland in comparison.

Europe is not London. Europe has low income areas like Kosovo or whatever.

Also about half of US citizens are living paycheck to paycheck.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/a-shocking-number-of-americans-are-living-paycheck-to-paycheck-2020-01-07


Social security is rubbish, incarceration rates are sky high, public healthcare is abysmal.

People who do well have very good time. People who do not really don’t and there are way more of them.

It is a land of extremes which explains the tiny problems of stability they experience now and then.
 
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solid_core

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Why do you think instead of just researching a bit ?

Instead of thinking that US is New York think that it is a continent. They have their own areas like Poland in comparison.

Europe is not London. Europe has low income areas like Kosovo or whatever.

Also about half of US citizens are living paycheck to paycheck.
A shocking number of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck

Social security is rubbish, incarceration rates are sky high, public healthcare is abysmal.

People who do well have very good time. People who do not really don’t and there are way more of them.

It is a land of extremes which explains the tiny problems of stability they experience now and then.

I did a lot of research. If i would live in the US, my salary (I work as a programmer) would be much higher, but the cost of living only slightly higher or even equal.

An average US family has several cars, some of them absurdly big, an average European family has one small car.

There is still also a lot of tribal mentality in US minorities. There are no riots or looting of plasma TVs when a German policeman kills an Ukrainan man in Europe.

Its not about money, there is enough money in the US economy. Its about failed multiculturalism and no social securities.

I am sure many black rioters in the US are richer than I am or than many people in Asia or Eastern Europe. What they do not have is functional comunity, discipline, inner peace and mental stability.

Anger, emotionalism and looting is not a solution of anything.
 
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Richard T

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America has high crime because we have a moral problem and we are not set up for a secular government to handle it. The police do a decent job for the most part, with only a few bad apples among them. The relationship between the police and much of the public is adversarial though. There is a lack of trust and too much confrontation.

The justice system is overwhelmed and the prisons are still terrible. Figures are hard to come by but I estimate some 300 blacks have died in prison from COVID. Fifty in New York for sure, dozens in some other states. States will not even provide the numbers. Is COVID-19 Falling Harder on Black Prisoners? Officials Won’t Tell Us. Where is the outrage? Many of these prisoners are not on death row, and their neglect is basically just like a choke-hold, "I can't breath." Still, secular society is not going to make much change. We need faith based prisons, Exploring Faith-Based Correctional Programming - Right on Crime We need to enhance social capital as well. Social capital is basically the connections we have in our communities. Some people only have gangs or other criminals as their connections. To lessen confrontation, drug possession should not be a crime. Government seizures should not be allowed. Aggressive DUI, traffic enforcement, and questionable searches should end. Too often the goal of these police activities are about money, though they will not admit to that. Nearly 600 Towns Get 10% Of Their Budgets (Or More) From Court Fines
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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I did a lot of research. If i would live in the US, my salary (I work as a programmer) would be much higher, but the cost of living only slightly higher or even equal.

So you think average US job is on par with being a programmer?
 
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solid_core

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So you think average US job is on par with being a programmer?
Any average US job is paid better than its counterpart in an average EU or Asian country. Even when the cost of living is compared.

And realize that the lootings are in ones of the most richest cities, not in some poor towns in Alabama. They are in Washingon, Santa Monica, Beverly Hills etc.

Also realize that they loot electronics, TVs, gaming consoles, cigarettes and alcohol, cosmetics, luxury goods etc. Not food.
 
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