Genesis Covenant Rainbow - Truth or fable?

Stephen P · Jun 6, 2020

Genesis Covenant Rainbow - Truth or fable?
Genesis 9:13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Genesis believes it is the first time rainbows appeared - far past Creation and Adam and Eves time; how could this practically be possible without any creation happening?

Logically:
~~~~~~~~~~
1. There were no rainbows before Genesis 9.
2. Something started rainbows.
3. That something must not have been present before.
4. So what makes rainbows so we can find what affected them?

https://scijinks.gov/rainbow/
"A rainbow is caused by sunlight and atmospheric conditions. Light enters a water droplet, slowing down and bending as it goes from air to denser water. The light reflects off the inside of the droplet, separating into its component wavelengths--or colors. When light exits the droplet, it makes a rainbow."

5. So there must not have been water droplets before Genesis 9.
6. The atmosphere was much dryer, no clouds.
7. Something made the atmosphere wetter to allow rainbows.
8. The Flood has just happened, with bulk dumping of water over all the hot land.

Rainbow Summary:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
S1. In the Beginning there was a dry atmosphere - Aboriginals still carry DNA that allows arid survival in these conditions.
S2. Rivers are mentioned in Eden, but not rain.
S3. The Flood happened which introduced a much wetter atmosphere
S4. Rainbows appeared.

~~
S2 seems controversial, but I go back to the Biblical comments on the river of life, the rivers of Eden Gen 2:10 and a river in the new Jerusalem, not rain, Revelation 22:1
IF I am correct, Rain only appeared after the Flood.

Question: So how did Eden's plants get watered by only rivers?
When I/we think of a garden I/we tend to imagine an English garden or Park.
Square, watered by rain.
Answer Perhaps look at a map of the Nile which is an ancient waterway closer to the Bibles reference, and much closer to Eden (The Arabian plate).
Part I. The Nile River that flows through Egypt and empties into the Mediterranean Sea is one of the world's longest rivers, … | Egypt map, Egypt, Ancient egypt map

Cheers
Stephen

Broken Fence · Jun 6, 2020

Stephen P said:
Genesis Covenant Rainbow - Truth or fable?
Genesis 9:13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Genesis believes it is the first time rainbows appeared - far past Creation and Adam and Eves time; how could this practically be possible without any creation happening?

Logically:
~~~~~~~~~~
1. There were no rainbows before Genesis 9.
2. Something started rainbows.
3. That something must not have been present before.
4. So what makes rainbows so we can find what affected them?

https://scijinks.gov/rainbow/
"A rainbow is caused by sunlight and atmospheric conditions. Light enters a water droplet, slowing down and bending as it goes from air to denser water. The light reflects off the inside of the droplet, separating into its component wavelengths--or colors. When light exits the droplet, it makes a rainbow."

5. So there must not have been water droplets before Genesis 9.
6. The atmosphere was much dryer, no clouds.
7. Something made the atmosphere wetter to allow rainbows.
8. The Flood has just happened, with bulk dumping of water over all the hot land.

Rainbow Summary:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
S1. In the Beginning there was a dry atmosphere - Aboriginals still carry DNA that allows arid survival in these conditions.
S2. Rivers are mentioned in Eden, but not rain.
S3. The Flood happened which introduced a much wetter atmosphere
S4. Rainbows appeared.

~~
S2 seems controversial, but I go back to the Biblical comments on the river of life, the rivers of Eden Gen 2:10 and a river in the new Jerusalem, not rain, Revelation 22:1
IF I am correct, Rain only appeared after the Flood.

Question: So how did Eden's plants get watered by only rivers?
When I/we think of a garden I/we tend to imagine an English garden or Park.
Square, watered by rain.
Answer Perhaps look at a map of the Nile which is an ancient waterway closer to the Bibles reference, and much closer to Eden (The Arabian plate).
Part I. The Nile River that flows through Egypt and empties into the Mediterranean Sea is one of the world's longest rivers, … | Egypt map, Egypt, Ancient egypt map

Cheers
Stephen

Truth: The rainbow is indeed a sign and promise from God.

solid_core · Jun 6, 2020

Stephen P said:
Genesis Covenant Rainbow - Truth or fable?
Genesis 9:13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Genesis believes it is the first time rainbows appeared - far past Creation and Adam and Eves time; how could this practically be possible without any creation happening?

Logically:
~~~~~~~~~~
1. There were no rainbows before Genesis 9.
2. Something started rainbows.
3. That something must not have been present before.
4. So what makes rainbows so we can find what affected them?

https://scijinks.gov/rainbow/
"A rainbow is caused by sunlight and atmospheric conditions. Light enters a water droplet, slowing down and bending as it goes from air to denser water. The light reflects off the inside of the droplet, separating into its component wavelengths--or colors. When light exits the droplet, it makes a rainbow."

5. So there must not have been water droplets before Genesis 9.
6. The atmosphere was much dryer, no clouds.
7. Something made the atmosphere wetter to allow rainbows.
8. The Flood has just happened, with bulk dumping of water over all the hot land.

Rainbow Summary:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
S1. In the Beginning there was a dry atmosphere - Aboriginals still carry DNA that allows arid survival in these conditions.
S2. Rivers are mentioned in Eden, but not rain.
S3. The Flood happened which introduced a much wetter atmosphere
S4. Rainbows appeared.

~~
S2 seems controversial, but I go back to the Biblical comments on the river of life, the rivers of Eden Gen 2:10 and a river in the new Jerusalem, not rain, Revelation 22:1
IF I am correct, Rain only appeared after the Flood.

Question: So how did Eden's plants get watered by only rivers?
When I/we think of a garden I/we tend to imagine an English garden or Park.
Square, watered by rain.
Answer Perhaps look at a map of the Nile which is an ancient waterway closer to the Bibles reference, and much closer to Eden (The Arabian plate).
Part I. The Nile River that flows through Egypt and empties into the Mediterranean Sea is one of the world's longest rivers, … | Egypt map, Egypt, Ancient egypt map

Cheers
Stephen

The text actually says:
1. I have set my rainbow in the clouds (the statement about the natural phenomenon)
2. and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth (from now on)

The text does not say that the rainbow was first seen on that day.

Stephen P · Jun 6, 2020

solid_core said:
The text actually says:
1. I have set my rainbow in the clouds (the statement about the natural phenomenon)
2. and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth (from now on)
The text does not say that the rainbow was first seen on that day.

I understand, solid_core.
It could also be interpreted as "I have [Now or Will] set my rainbow in the cloud".
The verse actually reads:
Genesis 9:13 Interlinear: My bow I have given in the cloud, and it hath been for a token of a covenant between Me and the earth;
"And between me of the covenant for the sign and it shall be in the cloud I set my rainbow"
[note shall be, not 'is there'] [note set (present tense) not 'have set']
9:13 “I do set my bow in the cloud" is also the first time the description Cloud in mentioned in the Bible."
I'd think the description of Eden with it's rivers would have credited a mention of the lovely rain and clouds.

The reason why I support this thought of a reduced water atmosphere is if the Flood was real,
1. where did the waters come from, and where did they go to when the waters receded?
2. Water topping the the world to a level at least as high as the 5,137 metres Mt Ararat is a hell of a lot just to have drain away somewhere.
3. Where are the springs that provided the water in the Earth which is hotter than the sun?
4. Where did the water go? Did the water evaporate into the universe?

This is what I am trying to resolve.
I have a few theories regarding this in a different discussion which I am trying to simplify at the moment. "Flood - Truth or fable" (maybe I should say, Geological Truth or Biblical Fable?)
Cheers
Stephen

solid_core · Jun 6, 2020

Stephen P said:
I understand, solid_core.
It could also be interpreted as "I have [Now or Will] set my rainbow in the cloud".
The verse actually reads: Genesis 9:13 Interlinear: My bow I have given in the cloud, and it hath been for a token of a covenant between Me and the earth;
"And between me of the covenant for the sign and it shall be in the cloud I set my rainbow"
[note shall be, not 'is there'] [note set (present tense) not 'have set']
9:13 “I do set my bow in the cloud" is also the first time the description Cloud in mentioned in the Bible."
I'd think the description of Eden with it's rivers would have credited a mention of the lovely rain and clouds.

The reason why I support this thought of a reduced water atmosphere is if the Flood was real,
1. where did the waters come from, and where did they go to when the waters receded?
2. Water topping the the world to a level at least as high as the 5,137 metres Mt Ararat is a hell of a lot just to have drain away somewhere.
3. Where are the springs that provided the water in the Earth which is hotter than the sun?
4. Where did the water go? Did the water evaporate into the universe?

This is what I am trying to resolve.
I have a few theories regarding this in a different discussion which I am trying to simplify at the moment. "Flood - Truth or fable" (maybe I should say, Geological Truth or Biblical Fable?)
Cheers
Stephen

I think you read Genesis as being about the whole globe, planet. Ancient Jews did not have such idea. They thought just in the way of flat earth floating on waters, because that was the only world they experienced.

Therefore its not useful to try to apply their description of the flood to our scientific picture of the universe.

Their description and line of thought fits best with a local flood of Mesopotamian plains that destroyed the whole inhabitance/world of early people, not with the whole planet covered with waters from Antarctica to Arctica.

Stephen P · Jun 6, 2020

solid_core said:
I think you read Genesis as being about the whole globe, planet. Ancient Jews did not have such idea. They thought just in the way of flat earth floating on waters, because that was the only world they experienced.
Therefore its not useful to try to apply their description of the flood to our scientific picture of the universe.
Their description and line of thought fits best with a local flood of Mesopotamian plains that destroyed the whole inhabitance/world of early people, not with the whole planet covered with waters from Antarctica to Arctica.

solid_core
yes, good to know somebody else was wandering that

Especially the wanderings of the Jews when there were Aborigines etc were elsewhere for 50,000 years. Didn't God want to save Aboriginals as well?
For all we know the Flood story came from was what was proposed 10 years ago as the failure of the Bospherous - the Black Sea Deluge resulting in a river that uniquely flows both ways.
The Jews could have been living in the dry Mediterranean which is where the fable of a drowned Atlantis may have come from..
HOWEVER, the Dinosaur fossils in the U.S. show signs of being (did I get the term right?) dilluvial sorting. ie the bodies were in moving water and sediment that sorted the bones, heavy at the bottom, lighter at the top, all mixed together.
Also, Coal (compressed plant growth) is everywhere in the world, and Oil (plankton) is in some selected areas. Mostly Saudi and Kuwait (near Eden).
FYI Sydney, AUS has a layer of coal all across the whole of the city under the sandstone, it is more accessible at Coalcliff, Newcastle, and Lithgow where there are mines.
Settlers build a colliery at Balmain, a stones throw from the Harbour Bridge.

By the way, I believe this to be a common agreement?
re: the Sumerian Flood Story Gilgamesh predates the Biblical one because the jews, like the Aboriginal dreamtime were verbal storytellers and did not write the storied down untill much later.
Cheers
Stephen

Stephen P · Jun 6, 2020

But Yes, I believe God wanted a complete wipeout. Usually God will specify if He is going to specialise. ie "I will destroy all but the xxxxx"
It depends on the stage of plate technology speed etc, but a flood of just where the worlds population was is possible.
World Population by Year - Worldometer
drat! I tried to stop youtube posting the pic but it doe it anyway..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6Wu0Q7x5D0

Ttalkkugjil · Jun 6, 2020

God set His rainbow in the clouds and it'll be the covenant's sign.

However, where do you read as to just WHEN God set His rainbow in the clouds? Perhaps they appeared as early as the first water droplets but God only fixed them as being the covenant's sign post-Flood.

eleos1954 · Jun 6, 2020

Stephen P said:
Genesis Covenant Rainbow - Truth or fable?
Genesis 9:13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Genesis believes it is the first time rainbows appeared - far past Creation and Adam and Eves time; how could this practically be possible without any creation happening?

Logically:
~~~~~~~~~~
1. There were no rainbows before Genesis 9.
2. Something started rainbows.
3. That something must not have been present before.
4. So what makes rainbows so we can find what affected them?

https://scijinks.gov/rainbow/
"A rainbow is caused by sunlight and atmospheric conditions. Light enters a water droplet, slowing down and bending as it goes from air to denser water. The light reflects off the inside of the droplet, separating into its component wavelengths--or colors. When light exits the droplet, it makes a rainbow."

5. So there must not have been water droplets before Genesis 9.
6. The atmosphere was much dryer, no clouds.
7. Something made the atmosphere wetter to allow rainbows.
8. The Flood has just happened, with bulk dumping of water over all the hot land.

Rainbow Summary:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
S1. In the Beginning there was a dry atmosphere - Aboriginals still carry DNA that allows arid survival in these conditions.
S2. Rivers are mentioned in Eden, but not rain.
S3. The Flood happened which introduced a much wetter atmosphere
S4. Rainbows appeared.

~~
S2 seems controversial, but I go back to the Biblical comments on the river of life, the rivers of Eden Gen 2:10 and a river in the new Jerusalem, not rain, Revelation 22:1
IF I am correct, Rain only appeared after the Flood.

Question: So how did Eden's plants get watered by only rivers?
When I/we think of a garden I/we tend to imagine an English garden or Park.
Square, watered by rain.
Answer Perhaps look at a map of the Nile which is an ancient waterway closer to the Bibles reference, and much closer to Eden (The Arabian plate).
Part I. The Nile River that flows through Egypt and empties into the Mediterranean Sea is one of the world's longest rivers, … | Egypt map, Egypt, Ancient egypt map

Cheers
Stephen

Genesis 2:6
but a mist went up from the earth, and watered the whole surface of the ground.

Stephen P · Jun 7, 2020

eleos1954 said:
Genesis 2:6
but a mist went up from the earth, and watered the whole surface of the ground.

Yes eleos1954
Well done, however, I argue this:
Genesis 2:6 Commentaries: But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.
"A mist.—This mist, as we learn from Job 36:27, where the same word is translated vapour"

From anyone who studies tornadoes, vapour, not cloud, pours north from the Gulf of Mexico to form the powerhouse of Tornado Alley (The cold air, not cloud, from the Western Mountains sits on top and provides HUGE lift). Anyway, during the day this invisible vapor only seen on Weather Station charts can be totally invisible and only sensed when relative humidity > 100%. You can have a HUGELY wet atmosphere with some cloud, but mostly clear.
Have a look at the excellent Youtube video "WORKSHOP El Reno - May 31, 2013 mega-tornado analysis - with Glenn" which shows the radar vs Weather Station maps.
At 2 minutes, the visible radar shows scuddy cloud building in the vicinity of the storms, but in other areas, is totally clear.
Compare the radar with the following charts at 8 minutes to see the position of the vapor.
There is a capping layer mentioned and this reminded me of the "layer" in Genesis, but don't get me started!!

In Ancient days:
Vapour canapy:
The Pre-flood Atmosphere | Genesis Park

Plants can survive without water.
Could restoring forests help ease drought in Australia?
"Although people have guessed that forests could help make rain, it's always been a chicken-or-egg scenario: do forests make rain or do areas with high rainfall grow forests?"

You can easily water all plants without rain. A greenhouse or a highly humid place like a jungle produces water droplets which feeds plants without rain happening. Bromeliads for example.
Below: Think of Trees using Eden's rivers and providing moisture for Bromeliads, and other plants.
A Plant with Its Own Water Tank
"The largest bromeliads hold up to two gallons of water. Many animals drink from the bromeliad water tanks. And many others actually live in the water held by bromeliads."
Potentially, No Cloud Necessary.
7 Common Bromeliad Care Mistakes - Bromeliad Plant Care
Interestedly Bromeliads are not poisonous to pets, so the ancient Cat and Dog (Animals brought before Adam, but now not Companions) would not have had a problem living in that version of Eden.

When the sky is perfectly clear, there is still a LOT of water, it is only when the temperature drops and the "mist" goes under the dewpoint temperature (>100%), does rain droplets start to form.
My argument, is that there was Air / humidity else everyone would dry out, however there was not rain droplets.

There is a difference between the words Mist and Cloud?
I believe the word Cloud (visible mist) is only first used in the rainbow verse.
Mist could mean Atmosphere or Vapour as per the above quote.
This is the interlinear Torah version of
Genesis 2:1 Interlinear: And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host;
Gen 2:6 "Of the Ground face the whole - and watered the earth from went up a mist"
Gen 2:7 "the ground of/from the dust man - god yahweh and formed"
Gen 2:8 "- there and He put in the East in Eden a garden god yaweh and planted"

I see the "Springs" as the 4 rivers, feeding trees. These create the vapor for feeding plants and yo can drink directly from the water collected in Bromeliads.
OH and there was only 1 person, plus some animals; only enough animals to bring to Adam to see if the animal would be a Companion without Adam getting hugely bored with seeing animals..
"I call it ant; Companion-nope,
I call it sea lion; Companion-nope,
I call it cat; Companion - Maybe later."
"Bored .. hey God what if you combined a Duck, otter and a beaver? You have already?? OK I call it ....Platypus"
Later there were 2 people plus all the animals.

Stephen P · Jun 7, 2020

Stephen P said:
Yes eleos1954
Well done, however, I argue this:
Genesis 2:6 Commentaries: But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.
"A mist.—This mist, as we learn from Job 36:27, where the same word is translated vapour"

From anyone who studies tornadoes, vapour, not cloud, pours north from the Gulf of Mexico to form the powerhouse of Tornado Alley (The cold air, not cloud, from the Western Mountains sits on top and provides HUGE lift). Anyway, during the day this invisible vapor only seen on Weather Station charts can be totally invisible and only sensed when relative humidity > 100%. You can have a HUGELY wet atmosphere with some cloud, but mostly clear.
Have a look at the excellent Youtube video "WORKSHOP El Reno - May 31, 2013 mega-tornado analysis - with Glenn" which shows the radar vs Weather Station maps.
At 2 minutes, the visible radar shows scuddy cloud building in the vicinity of the storms, but in other areas, is totally clear.
Compare the radar with the following charts at 8 minutes to see the position of the vapor.
There is a capping layer mentioned and this reminded me of the "layer" in Genesis, but don't get me started!!

In Ancient days:
Vapour canapy:
The Pre-flood Atmosphere | Genesis Park

Plants can survive without water.
Could restoring forests help ease drought in Australia?
"Although people have guessed that forests could help make rain, it's always been a chicken-or-egg scenario: do forests make rain or do areas with high rainfall grow forests?"

You can easily water all plants without rain. A greenhouse or a highly humid place like a jungle produces water droplets which feeds plants without rain happening. Bromeliads for example.
Below: Think of Trees using Eden's rivers and providing moisture for Bromeliads, and other plants.
A Plant with Its Own Water Tank
"The largest bromeliads hold up to two gallons of water. Many animals drink from the bromeliad water tanks. And many others actually live in the water held by bromeliads."
Potentially, No Cloud Necessary.
7 Common Bromeliad Care Mistakes - Bromeliad Plant Care
Interestedly Bromeliads are not poisonous to pets, so the ancient Cat and Dog (Animals brought before Adam, but now not Companions) would not have had a problem living in that version of Eden.

When the sky is perfectly clear, there is still a LOT of water, it is only when the temperature drops and the "mist" goes under the dewpoint temperature (>100%), does rain droplets start to form.
My argument, is that there was Air / humidity else everyone would dry out, however there was not rain droplets.

There is a difference between the words Mist and Cloud?
I believe the word Cloud (visible mist) is only first used in the rainbow verse.
Mist could mean Atmosphere or Vapour as per the above quote.
This is the interlinear Torah version of
Genesis 2:1 Interlinear: And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host;
Gen 2:6 "Of the Ground face the whole - and watered the earth from went up a mist"
Gen 2:7 "the ground of/from the dust man - god yahweh and formed"
Gen 2:8 "- there and He put in the East in Eden a garden god yaweh and planted"

I see the "Springs" as the 4 rivers, feeding trees. These create the vapor for feeding plants and yo can drink directly from the water collected in Bromeliads.
OH and there was only 1 person, plus some animals; only enough animals to bring to Adam to see if the animal would be a Companion without Adam getting hugely bored with seeing animals..
"I call it ant; Companion-nope,
I call it sea lion; Companion-nope,
I call it cat; Companion - Maybe later."
"Bored .. hey God what if you combined a Duck, otter and a beaver? You have already?? OK I call it ....Platypus"
Later there were 2 people plus all the animals.

WOW
What was Adam on!!!
https://www.travelchannel.com/inter...st-animals-in-the-world-and-where-to-see-them
5 out of 15 are Aussie
A Sparkle Muffin?
"This Australian peacock spider was discovered inside the woodland forests of Wondul National Park, near Brisbane, in 2015. Scientifically named maratus jactatus, sparklemuffin earned its colloquial name from University of California researcher Madeline Girard, who discovered the species. These colorful spiders measure just five millimeters in length and display a signature mating dance, where male spiders raise a leg to signal females."
(Aussie Male humans raise an arm to signal females : Hey Shiela get me another tinny from the frige would ya?)

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Genesis Covenant Rainbow - Truth or fable?

Stephen P

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Broken Fence

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