The Lake Of Fire

Der Alte said:

Don't I know it. I have been active here since Clinton was prez. I realized early on that hard core members of heterodox religious groups are almost impossible to reach but I toil on in hopes I can reach some on the fringe, thinking about joining or leaving such groups. Them folks post their arguments and I post the real-deal. And I have had some success. Enough to keep me going.

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Same here, but not as long as you.

ClementofA said:

More accurate, literal & honest translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

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More accurate according to you and your small cadre of fellow URers. now go find out what ages unto ages means to the average greek speaker and stop being so benighted!

ClementofA said:

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

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2 Cor. 5-- all things are new for those in Christ! The majority are not in Christ for they are unbelievers!

Forever and ever- English sometimes doesn't translate smoothly from Greek- deal with it!

The Lord will not cast off forever- that was for OT Israel. The church will never be cast off!

FineLinen said:

Nothing = adynateō

Luke 1:37

"For with God nothing shall be impossible."

Romans 8:38

"Nothing shall separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus."

adynateō =

Cannot be done.

Impossible.

Our God is the God of UN (limited)

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Nothing is impossible with god! But if He says He will not do something- He will not do it! Too bad you fail to understand that!

And for believers nothing shall separate us from the love of God!

But for the unbeliever:

Matthew 7:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There are a whole bunch of people Jesus is not even familiar with!

Also:
John 3:36 King James Version (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

A person with a spiritual IQ of 1/2 knows that if Gods wrath is abiding on someone- they are separated from the love of God!

Read all the Bible so you can get the full picture!

ClementofA said:

What's the problem?

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Be filthy...still...but not forever.

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YOU call my verses lame and failing, but your arguments are all from silence without any biblical support for your hypothesis.

YOu are trying to make an argument from silence and lousy linguistics. still defines as REMAN and as it is a command from God.....

If it is not forever show the passage that gives repentance in the lake of fire!!!!!

The silence from you is deafening on this!

ClementofA said:

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

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This is a parable! Can't make doctrine out of parables!

ClementofA said:

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

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Then be consistent and not tossed to and fro! Jesus used those same "weak words" to describe how long believers will be in heaven ! In case you never heard redfining words to fit your own beliefs is hypocrisy!

martymonster said:

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

The dead are dead. The scriptures are very clear on this.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

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Well seeing as you didn't pay attention the first time I wrote it, I will write it one more time!

The historical accouont of Lazarus and the rich man was told to the disciples and not the masses or the pharisees. The pharisees just happened to be there when Jesus was teaching His disciples!

Luke 16 King James Version (KJV)
1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

See His disciples!!! Not the masses!!!!!!!

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

See He wasn't speaking to the Pharisees, they just heard Him teaching HIS DISCIPLES!

So Luke 16 contains no parables, they were accounts Lord Jesus knew of and told His Disciples not the crowds!


10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

All we have to do is pay attention ot what is written and we won't go astray!

nolidad said:

Well seeing as you didn't pay attention the first time I wrote it, I will write it one more time!

The historical accouont of Lazarus and the rich man was told to the disciples and not the masses or the pharisees. The pharisees just happened to be there when Jesus was teaching His disciples!

Luke 16 King James Version (KJV)
1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

See His disciples!!! Not the masses!!!!!!!

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

See He wasn't speaking to the Pharisees, they just heard Him teaching HIS DISCIPLES!

So Luke 16 contains no parables, they were accounts Lord Jesus knew of and told His Disciples not the crowds!


10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

All we have to do is pay attention ot what is written and we won't go astray!

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That's some major straw clutching you've got going on there.

nolidad said:

The Lord will not cast off forever- that was for OT Israel. The church will never be cast off!

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XYZ said:

Your claims to LAMANTATION 3 being to the unrepentant wicked has been proven false already by showing the context you leave out of the text you use to try and claim reconciliation of the unrepentant wicked. LAMANTATIONS 3 scripture context you leave out show that the chapter is about ISRAEL that has sinned against God and retuned to God in repentance and that reconciliation of ISRAEL (God's people) takes place after repentance.

Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...

[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:

[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.

Your just repeating yourself and your same cut and paste without addressing this post addressing your claims here multiple time. The last more detailed reply was posted in post # 1392 linked here. Your just repeating yourself again with continious cut and past without responding to the scripture that prove context that your application of them is in error.

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You're doing the same thing you do here with Eccl.1:13:

XYZ said:

The scriptures your providing are written for God's people and have application to God's people not the wicked.

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If i write a book titled the "salvation of humanity" and it has one sentence stating "the demons will be saved", you err to argue that the context is about the "salvation of humanity" not "demons will be saved", so the statement that "demons will be saved" is really not having any "application" to "demons will be saved", but is actually about the "salvation of humanity".

That's exactly what you've done with several passages i've quoted.

You are committing the error of - using context as a pretext to not believe the plain text - (of what is written). For example, you deny Eccl.1:13 is speaking about "men" in general and insist it only regards Israel or believers:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

God speaks of "the sons of humanity", not believers only as you would change His word. Shouldn't changing His word worry you? I think i'll take God at His word, instead of your alteration of it:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".

We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

XYZ said:

You have not addressed anything in my earliar post the shows the context you left out.

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I did address them by stating this:

You can either believe some human opinion, like that of John Gill that you posted, or you can choose to believe Lam.3:31-33 above. Your choice. Up to you.

And the context doesn't change this:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

XYZ said:

Your claims here have been clearly refurted already in a post you have not even bothered to read or address.

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Nonsense. How would you know what i read or didn't read? Can you read minds? Are you omniscient? I did read the human opinions you posted. And addresss them (see above). What else is there to say. Nothing in them changed Lam.3:31-33 KJV or refuted anything i said. If you think so, point it out & explain why. That's the proper way to do things.

XYZ said:

I have shown you already the context you left out of these scriptures that prove that LAMENTATIONS is in regards to ISRAEL'S (God's peoples) punishments for sin.

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So what? Lam,3:31-33 KJV - EXPANDS upon that and goes further to include "men" in general. Or do you not believe what is in front of your eyes? Or do you think God cannot speak of both Israel and "men" in general in the same context? That would be limiting God, wouldn't it? Would you want to limit God? Should that not worry you?

XYZ said:

Why you continue to ignore this is beyond me. As shown earlier through the scriptures....

Sorry dear friend but LAMENTATIONS 3 is over ISRAELS afflictions (God's poeple) for departing from God and sinning against him and returning to God in repentance. Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...

[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:

[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.

...............

Benson Commentary
Lamentations 3:31-33. The Lord will not cast off for ever — The truly penitent that put their trust in him, and sincerely desire and seek reconciliation with him: though he may for a time appear to estrange himself from them, yet he will certainly return to them. Though he cause grief — Though, as a prudent parent, he may see reason to chastise his people by affliction, yet as a kind and tender Father, who pitieth his children in misery, according to the multitude, the unspeakable greatness and abundance of his mercies, he will have compassion upon them. For he doth not afflict willingly — Hebrew, מלבו, from his heart, that is, of his own mere motion, without cause given him by the persons afflicted; or freely and with pleasure; nor grieve the children of men — Much less his own children. Hence judgment is called his strange work, and exercising mercy and loving-kindness his delight.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For the Lord will not cast off for ever. Which is not to be understood of all his creatures; for there are some he does cast off for ever, as the angels that sinned; reprobate men, profligate and abandoned sinners, that live and die impenitent; and unbelievers, carnal professors, and apostates; but not his own special and peculiar people, the people whom he has foreknown and loved with an everlasting love, his spiritual Israel; or, as the Targum supplies it, "his servants"; see Psalm 94:14; he may seem for a while to reject them, but not in reality and for ever; as when he hides his face from them, lays his afflicting hand on them, or suffers then, to be afflicted by others, and defers his help, and does not immediately appear to their deliverance and salvation; but in reality he never rejects them from being his people, his servants, and his sons; they have always a place in his heart, and are ever under his eye and care; they continue in his covenant, and abide in his family; and though they may be cast down in their souls, and cast out by men, yet are not cast off by God, neither in youth nor old age, in time or eternity; his love is unchangeable; his purposes firm and unalterable; his counsel, covenant, oath, and promise, immutable; and they are his jewels, his portion, and inheritance; and this is a ground and reason of bearing patiently all afflictions, injuries, and reproaches; for though men cast off, God will not.

It seems dear friend God's Word disagrees with you and the posts your providing are simply smoke and mirrors. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

Gods' Sheep hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him.

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Here you just repeat your previous comments with some empty fluff added. Nothing changes the facts that i've posted above. So should you not be worried?

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nolidad said:

Also:
John 3:36 King James Version (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

A person with a spiritual IQ of 1/2 knows that if Gods wrath is abiding on someone- they are separated from the love of God!

Read all the Bible so you can get the full picture!

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He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36

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The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/view/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36

How can the wrath of God abide (remain) on someone if it isn't already there? And the denial ("shall not see life") is not time limited. It is that the individual will not see life. Period.

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Clearly it is "time limited". All were at one time "unbelievers" with the "wrath of God" on them. Yet many of those unbelievers became believers. These believers no longer have the "wrath of God" on them. There - was - a "time limit" to how long the "wrath of God" was on them. And likewise there was a "time limit" till those who "shall not see life" did in fact "see life".

Even apostates who had once believed are being sought by God for salvation & being corrected for their own good:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32

nolidad said:

Then be consistent and not tossed to and fro! Jesus used those same "weak words" to describe how long believers will be in heaven ! In case you never heard redfining words to fit your own beliefs is hypocrisy!

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XYZ said:

It is repeating a line of argument that, so far, you have not even come close to successfully refuting.

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You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

XYZ said:

It is not an assumption that Matthew 25:46 employs a parallel, but a plain fact.

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Interpretation 1 above accepts the parallel of "eonian destinies". So the parallel there is not denied. Likewise interpretation 2 above acknowledging parallel perpetual destinies. But that the word perpetual can vary according to its subject.

XYZ said:

Let us look at this verse again:

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

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Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

nolidad said:

YOU call my verses lame and failing, but your arguments are all from silence without any biblical support for your hypothesis.

YOu are trying to make an argument from silence and lousy linguistics. still defines as REMAN and as it is a command from God.....

If it is not forever show the passage that gives repentance in the lake of fire!!!!!

The silence from you is deafening on this!

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I destroyed your "proof text" against universalism showing it failed as a "proof text". That's why your quoted verse was lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. The doctrine is a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

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https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

martymonster said:

That's some major straw clutching you've got going on there.

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Or as others call it- acepting the Word of God as written not as retranslated to fit an agenda.

FineLinen said:

You are such a hoot.

ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ (דֶאֱלָהָא מַלְכוּתָא)

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Glad I amuse you !

God does reign. And without His capital city (new Jerusalem) are the unrighteous who will never enter in!

ClementofA said:

The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

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And once again you use the words of a man of God remembering Gods Mercy to His Children and apply them to people who are not the children of God!

ClementofA said:

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

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YOur literal translations notwithstanding. I fully agree that one in this life who repents will see life (for they are the elect from the foundation of the world).

ButBUTBUT BUT BUT YOu continue to fail to show one verse that in the after aion one is given the opportunity to repent.

And all the translations of John 3:36 show that they will not see life in the future!

Even though they also misuse verses- the cessationists have a more solid case from twisiting the Scriptures than you do!

ClementofA said:

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

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So now you are also teaching it is possible that one ceases to exist in eternity! So believers who are living in the New Jerusalem can one day drop dead. OKay I think we have reached our end here.

YOu take the words of heretics (Origen) and pagans (Aristotle) over the millions of native greek speakers who have through the ages understood aionios to mean never ending!

So one may have eteernal life- or they may have only temporary life in heaven.

Don't throw incorruption and the others you threw at me. None of those mean duration but quality of either life (zoe) or punishment (kolasis) aionios is a word of duration.

FineLinen said:

Your problem, (among the megas problems in your scope), is you do indeed limit the God of Israel.

Shame be upon you!

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If He who is Love and perfect holiness had not placed the limit on HImself- I would not preach it, but He has so I do!

Shame on you for only listening to part of the counsel of God and rejecting those parts you find inconvenient to your own feelings.

FineLinen said:

Every individual has a purpose. Amusing us is one of your strong attributes lol.

Quarantine Smiles

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As well as speaking truth to lies is !