Do Two Jerusalems kill the Premill doctrine?

mkgal1 · Jun 5, 2020

BABerean2 said:
It is going to be difficult to worship in earthly Jerusalem, when the city is destroyed in the Book of Revelation.

Not only that, but these prophecies prohibit Christ from sitting on a throne on earthly Jerusalem:

The priestly line and royal lines were separate in earthly Jerusalem. Jesus was not from the line of Levites (earthly priests).

Psalm 110:4 ~
The Lord has sworn

and will not change his mind:

“You are a priest forever,

in the order of Melchizedek.”

Zechariah 6:12-13 ~ You are to tell him that this is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘Here is a man whose name is the Branch, and He will branch out from His place and build the temple of the LORD. Yes, He will build the temple of the LORD; He will be clothed in splendor and will sit on His throne and rule. And He will be a priest on His throne, and there will be peaceful counsel between the two.’

Hebrews 5-8 develops the idea that Christ is after the order of Melchizedek. The conclusion is drawn that, if Christ were on earth, He wouldn't be a priest.

Hebrews 8:4 ~ Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are already priests who offer gifts according to the law.

And this prophecy (a difficult one, IMO):

Jeremiah 22:28-30 ~ Is this man Coniah a despised broken vessel? is he a vessel wherein none delighteth? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into the land which they know not? O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of Jehovah. Thus saith Jehovah, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no more shall a man of his seed prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling in Judah.

......and there were no more human kings ruling in Judah (Jerusalem) as they were taken into captivity.

mkgal1 · Jun 5, 2020

Kings of Judah (from conformingtojesus.com):

Temple Events <-----Timeline from That the World May Know

nolidad · Jun 5, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Which Jerusalem will be the home of believers at the Second Coming of Christ?

The answer to this question exposes the truth about the Premill doctrine.

Do many references to Jerusalem in the Old Testament refer to New Jerusalem?

Is there a sin-cursed earth, and a New Earth Peter was looking for in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

If we will rule upon the earth, which earth will it be?

Earthly Jerusalem vs. Heavenly Jerusalem

Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
(Why did Jesus correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem was the place to worship?)

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (Here Paul contrasts the two cities. Which one is our “mother”?)

Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
(What is the promised land in this passage?)

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

…………………………………………………………………

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
(Where was our Lord crucified? This identifies the “great city” in other passages found below.)

Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. (Has this “great city” fallen more than one time?)

Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
(The greatest earthquake in history is found in Revelation chapter 16. Notice what the text says about islands and mountains.)

Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev_18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. (Is the wicked “great city” also defined here as “Mystery Babylon”?)

Rev_18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Rev_18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! (The city is destroyed by fire.)

Rev_18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Rev_18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

What city replaces the wicked "great city" in the Book of Revelation?

Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev_21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

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YOu have so many errors in your exegesis here it is hard to untangle!

1. Babylon of REvelation is actually Babylon not Jerusalem
2. The Jerusalem of the millenial kingdom is a restored Jerusalem just like nearly all the earth! Most of the earth is devastated during the tribulaion 7 years and when Jesus returns He restores most of teh earth to the original edenic like state.
3. The new Jerusalem of REv. 21-22 is the eternal Jerusalem that comes from heaven when eternity is "established".

mkgal1 · Jun 5, 2020

nolidad said:
Babylon of REvelation is actually Babylon not Jerusalem

Revelation 11:8 - Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified.

mkgal1 · Jun 5, 2020

nolidad said:
The Jerusalem of the millenial kingdom is a restored Jerusalem just like nearly all the earth! Most of the earth is devastated during the tribulaion 7 years and when Jesus returns He restores most of teh earth to the original edenic like state.

In your theology, is David alive and reigning in this millennial kingdom (I never could grasp premill theology)?

nolidad · Jun 5, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Revelation 11:8 - Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified.

AND???????????????????????????????? I see they are figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, not Babylon! This does not give us license to retranslate Babylon to mean Jerusalem!

nolidad · Jun 5, 2020

mkgal1 said:
In your theology, is David alive and reigning in this millennial kingdom (I never could grasp premill theology)?

Yes He will reign as a vice regent or king.

Jer. 30:9

9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

"They shall" means they shall! Jesus is ultimate king, and David King of Israel under Him.

mkgal1 · Jun 5, 2020

nolidad said:
AND???????????????????????????????? I see they are figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, not Babylon! This does not give us license to retranslate Babylon to mean Jerusalem!

Where was Christ crucified? Was it not Jerusalem?

Revelation 11:8 - And their bodies will lie in the main street of Jerusalem, the city that is figuratively called “Sodom” and “Egypt,” the city where their Lord was crucified

BABerean2 · Jun 5, 2020

nolidad said:
YOu have so many errors in your exegesis here it is hard to untangle!

1. Babylon of REvelation is actually Babylon not Jerusalem
2. The Jerusalem of the millenial kingdom is a restored Jerusalem just like nearly all the earth! Most of the earth is devastated during the tribulaion 7 years and when Jesus returns He restores most of teh earth to the original edenic like state.
3. The new Jerusalem of REv. 21-22 is the eternal Jerusalem that comes from heaven when eternity is "established".

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Peter was head of the church in what city?

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
1Pe 5:11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1Pe 5:12 By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.
1Pe 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
1Pe 5:14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

Can you show us any mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

Christ returns "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God, in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. Can you explain how mortals survive the fire?

Was Peter looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth in 2 Peter 3:10-13, on the Day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief?

We know the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, because we have the return of Christ, at the 7th trumpet which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18. Therefore, there is no seven year tribulation period in the Bible.

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mkgal1 · Jun 5, 2020

nolidad said:
Yes He will reign as a vice regent or king.

Jer. 30:9

9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

"They shall" means they shall! Jesus is ultimate king, and David King of Israel under Him.

2nd Samuel addresses David and states this. Isn't this already fulfilled in Christ?:

2 Samuel 7:12-13 ~ For when you die and are buried with your ancestors, I will raise up one of your descendants, your own offspring, and I will make his kingdom strong. He is the one who will build a house—a temple—for my name. And I will secure his royal throne forever.

Acts 2:30 - And so, because he [David] was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne.

mkgal1 · Jun 5, 2020

nolidad said:
AND???????????????????????????????? I see they are figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, not Babylon! This does not give us license to retranslate Babylon to mean Jerusalem!

Not "they". This passage is only referring to ONE city.....and it clarifies which city by stating "where our Lord was crucified".

mkgal1 · Jun 5, 2020

nolidad said:
Yes He will reign as a vice regent or king.

Jer. 30:9

9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

"They shall" means they shall! Jesus is ultimate king, and David King of Israel under Him.

From the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary on Jer 30:9:

David, their king—No king of David's seed has held the scepter since the captivity; for Zerubbabel, though of David's line, never claimed the title of "king." The Son of David, Messiah, must therefore be meant; so the Targum (compare Isa 55:3, 4; Eze 34:23, 24; 37:24; Ho 3:5; Ro 11:25-32). He was appointed to the throne of David (Isa 9:7; Lu 1:32). He is here joined with Jehovah as claiming equal allegiance. God is our "King," only when we are subject to Christ.
*****************
Where was the throne of David after the Babylonian captivity? We were informed in Genesis that the scepter would not depart from Judah (Jerusalem).

Genesis 49:10 - The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes and the allegiance of the nations is his.

Brian Mcnamee · Jun 5, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Do you think James was ignoring those who had been Gentiles, or did he know many of those Gentiles were from the tribes taken into captivity hundreds of years earlier?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Why did Paul still call himself an "Israelite", even after his conversion, in Romans 11:1-5?
Did Paul reveal two different groups of Israelites in the passage, one faithful to God, and one not?

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Once again, faithful Israel and the Church cannot be separated.

.

the kingdom of God that covers the earth and has not end can only have one starting point. You are adamant that we are in the kingdom age now. You have been countered that the kingdom comes in Zech 14 and is still a future event. The root of your doctrine is Jer 31 and that the new covenant has declared a new Israel. Jer 31 is directly connected to Jer 30 the day of Jacobs trouble which he is saved out of it. Jer 31 notes that in that day; the day of Jacobs trouble... connecting the two chapters. the promise of the new covenant is immediately followed by God declaring that Israel will not cease to be nation in God's eyes and that God would not forsake the seed of Israel for all they have done. Think about this God knew the stone rejected by the builders would become teh chief corner stone. Jesus predicted the destruction of Jerualem and the temple for Israel not knowing the day of their visitation but here with this foreknowledge God declare they will not cease or be cast off. This promise is followed by another declaration that is checkmate for your position. That the city ( Jerusalem) will be rebuilt and holy never to be thrown down again at a time when the valley's are filled with dead bodies. Now this connect Zech 14 to the day of Jacobs trouble. The city will indeed need be rebuilt and the LORD will fill the places with dead bodies. This ties Armageddon in Rev and the day of Jezreel to the exact same time when again the dead bodies are everywhere and Jerusalem will indeed need to be rebuilt. Dan 7 has the kingdom coming after a pompous one is persecuting and prevailing over the saints for a time times and half a time... Rev 13 has the beast persecuting for 42 months which is the exact same time unit.
Jesus mission is to take the throne of David. He in Luke 1 is supposed to deliver Israel from their enemies and from that day on they will worship and serve the LORD is safety and in holiness form the time he delivers them all the days of their lives. This deliverance is exactly what we see in Dan 7 Zech 14 and Hosea. Israel is certainly still alive in prophecy.

sovereigngrace · Jun 6, 2020

nolidad said:
YOu have so many errors in your exegesis here it is hard to untangle!

1. Babylon of REvelation is actually Babylon not Jerusalem
2. The Jerusalem of the millenial kingdom is a restored Jerusalem just like nearly all the earth! Most of the earth is devastated during the tribulaion 7 years and when Jesus returns He restores most of teh earth to the original edenic like state.
3. The new Jerusalem of REv. 21-22 is the eternal Jerusalem that comes from heaven when eternity is "established".

What are you talking about "edenic like state"? In your theology:

· Glorified saints and mortal rebels inherit the same new incorruptible earth.
· The Premil age of Aquarius sees the majestic unchallenged righteous rule of Christ on earth end in a debacle – with a mass global rebellion by the millennial inhabitants.
· We have the biggest religious turn-around in history: from a millennial kingdom where the nations wholesale submit to Christ in righteousness to a mass revival of Satanism as "the sand of the sea." The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as “the sand of the sea” against the “camp of the saints.”
· You have the removal of the curse and corruption at the second coming and yet sin, death and decay continues and expands.
· This undesirable mongrel earth is equally filled with glorified saints and mortal rebels, righteousness and unrighteousness, sin and sinlessness, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror. This concept is totally unknown to Scripture.
· You have the Jewish temple rebuilt even though the eternal temple “not made with hands” is standing on the new earth in all His “power and glory.” You have the eliminated priesthood revived to rival Christ. You have animal sacrifices resurrected after Christ abolished them forever.
· You have Christ deceived by these phony religious devotees travelling to Jerusalem every yr to act out their forced worship or else you have Him willingly presiding over a prolonged sham.
· You have the lion and lamb enjoying millennial bliss until the slaughter truck pulls up to drag the lambs, goats and bullocks to the temple in Jerusalem for sacrifice in the presence of Jesus. Amazingly, for the first time in history they have no fear of their traditional predators, just supposedly righteous millennial God-ordained priests coming for them with sharp knives.

This supposed perfect new millennial earth is so corrupt by the end of the millennium that it has to be replaced again (Rev 20:11)!!!

sovereigngrace · Jun 6, 2020

Brian Mcnamee said:
the kingdom of God that covers the earth and has not end can only have one starting point. You are adamant that we are in the kingdom age now. You have been countered that the kingdom comes in Zech 14 and is still a future event. The root of your doctrine is Jer 31 and that the new covenant has declared a new Israel. Jer 31 is directly connected to Jer 30 the day of Jacobs trouble which he is saved out of it. Jer 31 notes that in that day; the day of Jacobs trouble... connecting the two chapters. the promise of the new covenant is immediately followed by God declaring that Israel will not cease to be nation in God's eyes and that God would not forsake the seed of Israel for all they have done. Think about this God knew the stone rejected by the builders would become teh chief corner stone. Jesus predicted the destruction of Jerualem and the temple for Israel not knowing the day of their visitation but here with this foreknowledge God declare they will not cease or be cast off. This promise is followed by another declaration that is checkmate for your position. That the city ( Jerusalem) will be rebuilt and holy never to be thrown down again at a time when the valley's are filled with dead bodies. Now this connect Zech 14 to the day of Jacobs trouble. The city will indeed need be rebuilt and the LORD will fill the places with dead bodies. This ties Armageddon in Rev and the day of Jezreel to the exact same time when again the dead bodies are everywhere and Jerusalem will indeed need to be rebuilt. Dan 7 has the kingdom coming after a pompous one is persecuting and prevailing over the saints for a time times and half a time... Rev 13 has the beast persecuting for 42 months which is the exact same time unit.
Jesus mission is to take the throne of David. He in Luke 1 is supposed to deliver Israel from their enemies and from that day on they will worship and serve the LORD is safety and in holiness form the time he delivers them all the days of their lives. This deliverance is exactly what we see in Dan 7 Zech 14 and Hosea. Israel is certainly still alive in prophecy.

Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?

I see no similarity.

BABerean2 · Jun 6, 2020

Brian Mcnamee said:
the kingdom of God that covers the earth and has not end can only have one starting point. You are adamant that we are in the kingdom age now.

Mat_12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Did Christ cast out devils during the first century?

......................................................................................

If the New Covenant is not now in effect can you explain the scripture found below, which was fulfilled at Calvary? In the NKJV the OT text is in uppercase letters.

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

Brian Mcnamee · Jun 6, 2020

mkgal1 said:
In your theology, is David alive and reigning in this millennial kingdom (I never could grasp premill theology)?

the Bible says 3 times David will be raised up so for you to not think it possible is strange. Hosea 3 notes David raised up in the latter days after Israel has gone many days without a king or sacrifice. If i go many days without something at the end of many days it is implied we have it again. The return of the sacrifice is not a return to an acceptable offering for sin but to set the stage for the man of sin to be revealed and for the abomination of desolation to take place. The return of the kingdom is at the 2nd coming.

4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

Eze 34
2 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24 And I, the LORD, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the LORD, have spoken.
25 “I will make a covenant of peace with them, and cause wild beasts to cease from the land; and they will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26 I will make them and the places all around My hill a blessing; and I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase. They shall be safe in their land; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke and delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. 28 And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid. 29 I will raise up for them a garden of renown, and they shall no longer be consumed with hunger in the land, nor bear the shame of the Gentiles anymore. 30 Thus they shall know that I, the LORD their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people,” says the Lord GOD.’ ”
31 “You are My flock, the flock of My pasture; you are men, and I am your God,” says the Lord GOD.

Jer 30
‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
10 ‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the LORD,
‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the LORD, ‘to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’ This idea of teh LORD coming with His saints and reigning 1000 years is literal, David indeed will be raised up and come with the LORD; life continues after Armageddon as the kingdom is established and those in heaven rule and reign with Jesus 1000 years. Satan is bound, the nations no longer deceived until the end of the 1000 years. The before and after picture is clear.

Brian Mcnamee · Jun 6, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Mat_12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Did Christ cast out devils during the first century?

......................................................................................

If the New Covenant is not now in effect can you explain the scripture found below, which was fulfilled at Calvary? In the NKJV the OT text is in uppercase letters.

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

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DavidPT · Jun 6, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?

I see no similarity.

Zechariah 14:5 and Zechariah 14:16-19 are the key.

Zechariah 14:5---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. This is the 2nd coming of Christ in the end of this age.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This is post the 2nd coming of Christ. These cannot mean saved saints who put on immortality at the last trump if they are under the threat of being punished for not complying with things. If there is no thousand years after the 2nd coming, that only leaves one conclusion to arrive at, what's recorded in Zechariah 14:16-19, it will be like that for forever, which also means that mortals can live forever too, without even having to put on immortality at the last trump in order to do so.

My argument is based on common sense, then. That assuming what I propose above is true, that Zechariah 14:5 is the 2nd coming, and that Zechariah 14:16-19 is after the 2nd coming, then it's only logical that there would have to be a period of time that has a beginning and an end after the 2nd coming.

But if you can instead show that Zechariah 14:5 isn't the 2nd coming, thus what it is referring to instead, and that you can show that Zechariah 14:16-19 is actually meaning in this age before the 2nd coming, rather than in the next age after the 2nd coming, that would totally destroy what I'm arguing altogether.

sovereigngrace · Jun 6, 2020

DavidPT said:
Zechariah 14:5 and Zechariah 14:16-19 are the key.

Zechariah 14:5---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. This is the 2nd coming of Christ in the end of this age.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This is post the 2nd coming of Christ. These cannot mean saved saints who put on immortality at the last trump if they are under the threat of being punished for not complying with things. If there is no thousand years after the 2nd coming, that only leaves one conclusion to arrive at, what's recorded in Zechariah 14:16, it will be like that for forever, which also means that mortals can live forever too, without even having to put on immortality at the last trump in order to do so.

My argument is based on common sense, then. That assuming what I propose above is true, that Zechariah 14:5 is the 2nd coming, and that Zechariah 14:16-19 is after the 2nd coming, then it's only logical that there would have to be a period of time that has a beginning and an end after the 2nd coming.

But if you can instead show that Zechariah 14:5 isn't the 2nd coming, thus what it is referring to instead, and that you can show that Zechariah 14:16-19 is actually meaning in this age before the 2nd coming, rather than in the next age after the 2nd coming, that would totally destroy what I'm arguing altogether.

Where does the detail of Zechariah 14 correlate with Revelation 20? You have furnished us with nothing at the moment. Again, all we are getting is opinion. But that counts for nothing.

Remember these are the two most quoted chapters by Premils, yet no Premil can correlate them. That is because there is no correlation. Think about this: Premillennialism's 2 main chapters don't equate to each other. This is more evidence that it is a false doctrine.

Do Two Jerusalems kill the Premill doctrine?

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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