Racism and other forms of hatred. Silence is not an option.

Jesus4Madrid said:

There is no widespread need for reform.

The prevalence of police violence against unarmed blacks is a completely false narrative. It happens, yes. In 2019 there were 10 in the whole of the US. In some of those cases, the victims were attacking the policeman. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

10. During the whole year.

And the numbers are declining:
38 in 2015
19 in 2016
22 in 2017
17 in 2018
10 in 2019
3 in 2020 (4 including Floyd)

A policeman in the US is 18x more likely to be killed by a black man than an unarmed black man is to be killed by a policeman.

The whole narrative is false. Black Lives Matter is based on a lie. American cities are being destroyed based on a lie. It doesn't hurt me, but I think it is sad and we should be careful not to propagate the same lie.

Click to expand...

Actually yes, there is a widespread need for police training. When a cop thinks its okay for him to brutally murder a suspect by kneeling on his neck AND three other cops failed to intervene, yes there is an APPARENT need for widespread police training reform. There is no narrative. Watch the video for yourself. You can see things for yourself. This is not like the Trayvon Martin case where there was no video. This case has a video that everyone can see for themselves. It's interesting that your statistics and mine completely go against one another...very odd.

These are the facts.
KEY FACTS
Over the last five years, Minneapolis police have documented using at least 6,650 acts of force against a black subject, versus approximately 2,750 instances against whites.

Although black people make up less than 20% of the population in Minneapolis, nearly 60% of the time that police use force, the individual subjected to that force is black.

These numbers are culled from data documented by the Minneapolis Police Department, according to records analyzed by The New York Times.

According to the Times, community leaders in Minneapolis say the frequency of police brutality against black residents helps explain why many in the city were enraged even before the death of George Floyd, which the medical examiner ruled a homicide.

Since 2015, body-weight pinning (one of the tactics applied on Geroge Floyd) has been used approximately 2,200 times against black people, more than twice the number of times it was used against whites.

Per Dave Bicking, a former member of the Minneapolis civilian police review authority, since 2012, more than 2,600 civilian complaints have been filed against Minneapolis police officers.

Yet, according to Bickering, in only a dozen cases has any discipline resulted from a civilian complaint alleging misconduct, with the worst punishment being 40 hours of unpaid suspension."

MORE FACTS
Between 2013 and 2019, police in the United States killed 7,666 people, according to data compiled by Mapping Police Violence, a research and advocacy group. On May 25, 2020 at 9:25pm (02:25 GMT, May 26), George Floyd, a 46-year-old resident of Minnesota, became yet another victim of police brutality as he was killed in police custody while unarmed. Floyd's death has prompted thousands of protesters to march in cities around the country demanding justice and an end to police violence.

The number of police killings in the US disproportionately affects African Americans. Despite only making up 13 percent of the US population, Black Americans are two-and-a-half times as likely as white Americans to be killed by the police.

The map below shows how disproportionate these killings are across the US's 50 states.

Unsurprisingly, the three largest states - California, Texas and Florida - have the highest total number of killings of Black people by police officers. Once these figures are adjusted for the population size and demographics, in nearly every state, African Americans face a significantly higher risk of being killed by police officers than white Americans.

In Utah, the African Americans comprise just 1.06 percent of the population but they accounted for 10 percent of police killings over the past seven years - a disproportional rate of 9.21 times. In Minnesota, Black Americans are nearly four times as likely to be killed by law enforcement, with Black victims comprising 20 percent of those killed, despite comprising only 5 percent of the overall population.

rusmeister said:

I have no objection to peaceful protests to specific complaints.
But this is NOT protesting. It is a lie to call it "protesting":

Click to expand...

Did I call that protesting? Far-Right Infiltrators and Agitators in George Floyd Protests: Indicators of White Supremacists
That isn't protesting either...

People shot to death by U.S. police, by race 2020 | Statista. Whites get killled more by police than blacks so the narrative of systemic racism is a false narrative

charsan said:

View attachment 278279
People shot to death by U.S. police, by race 2020 | Statista. Whites get killled more by police than blacks so the narrative of systemic racism is a false narrative

Click to expand...

Infographic: Black Americans 2.5X More Likely Than Whites to Be Killed By Police
Systemic racism involves A LOT more than just police brutality.

charsan said:

View attachment 278279
People shot to death by U.S. police, by race 2020 | Statista. Whites get killled more by police than blacks so the narrative of systemic racism is a false narrative

Click to expand...

AMM said:

Yep. So I direct you back to the video and encourage you to start another thread about it. If you rewatch the video, I would like to emphasize the 6:00 mark, and the 6:42 mark onwards.

Nowhere have I said that abortion is okay, or said anything to dismiss that problem. I have participated in pro-life protests, I have donated to pro-life causes, I have voted for pro-life politicians.

And no, I don't think it's a worse evil because it is legal. I don't think legality (or criminality) affects in any way whether something is evil or good. All sin is evil, tragic, and horrific.


I think that's very similar to what Father Seraphim says in the video. Violence occurs in our own hearts; indeed, all sin occurs in our heart, all evil is found in our heart.

That being said, I don't agree with your statement that we can only change these things with "genuine political power." You contradict yourself by starting with that statement, and then going on to say that this ultimately lies within the human soul.

We change these things by changing ourselves. We change these things by repenting of our own sins, examining our own conscience, and diving deep within our soul to uncover our wounds to Christ, who will heal us and renew us in his likeness.

Click to expand...

I find it interesting that you say I contradict myself, when it seems to me that the self-contradiction is yours: the whole point is that you say that we change these things by changing ourselves, but go on insisting that others change themselves with no sign of personal self-examination on that particular topic. In effect, it winds up being an accusation of all of us of racism, while the accuser (in this case, you and those who make these accusations in general) is more "woke" and is effectively not guilty as a result.
So if you're supposed to change yourself in this matter, change yourself, and stop talking as if it was everybody who disagrees with you. I'm certainly guilty of sins, but racial pride is absolutely not one of them. Nor is it of the vast majority of all people in all my experience.

I'm not saying that you are OK with abortion, but abortion is decidedly more evil than even slavery with whips and chains, which don't exist today. I'm saying that if one tenth of this passion was put into abortion, abortion would have already been abolished. But the supporters of racial division, "white privilege", "affirmative action", "white supremacy", and blacks as universal victims by virtue of skin color (which is all racist) also tend on the whole to support abortion, even if a certain Christian demographic doesn't (but a lot of so-called Christians now openly support even that). The topics are related, all the more because more black people are aborted than any other race. It's a topic for this thread, not a separate topic, and one that I imagine BLM people even here want to avoid, fatal as it is to their arguments.

lovelife34 said:

Actually yes, there is a widespread need for police training. When a cop thinks its okay for him to brutally murder a suspect by kneeling on his neck AND three other cops failed to intervene, yes there is an APPARENT need for widespread police training reform. There is no narrative. Watch the video for yourself. You can see things for yourself. This is not like the Trayvon Martin case where there was no video. This case has a video that everyone can see for themselves. It's interesting that your statistics and mine completely go against one another...very odd.

These are the facts.
KEY FACTS
Over the last five years, Minneapolis police have documented using at least 6,650 acts of force against a black subject, versus approximately 2,750 instances against whites.

Although black people make up less than 20% of the population in Minneapolis, nearly 60% of the time that police use force, the individual subjected to that force is black.

These numbers are culled from data documented by the Minneapolis Police Department, according to records analyzed by The New York Times.

According to the Times, community leaders in Minneapolis say the frequency of police brutality against black residents helps explain why many in the city were enraged even before the death of George Floyd, which the medical examiner ruled a homicide.

Since 2015, body-weight pinning (one of the tactics applied on Geroge Floyd) has been used approximately 2,200 times against black people, more than twice the number of times it was used against whites.

Per Dave Bicking, a former member of the Minneapolis civilian police review authority, since 2012, more than 2,600 civilian complaints have been filed against Minneapolis police officers.

Yet, according to Bickering, in only a dozen cases has any discipline resulted from a civilian complaint alleging misconduct, with the worst punishment being 40 hours of unpaid suspension."

MORE FACTS
Between 2013 and 2019, police in the United States killed 7,666 people, according to data compiled by Mapping Police Violence, a research and advocacy group. On May 25, 2020 at 9:25pm (02:25 GMT, May 26), George Floyd, a 46-year-old resident of Minnesota, became yet another victim of police brutality as he was killed in police custody while unarmed. Floyd's death has prompted thousands of protesters to march in cities around the country demanding justice and an end to police violence.

The number of police killings in the US disproportionately affects African Americans. Despite only making up 13 percent of the US population, Black Americans are two-and-a-half times as likely as white Americans to be killed by the police.

The map below shows how disproportionate these killings are across the US's 50 states.

Unsurprisingly, the three largest states - California, Texas and Florida - have the highest total number of killings of Black people by police officers. Once these figures are adjusted for the population size and demographics, in nearly every state, African Americans face a significantly higher risk of being killed by police officers than white Americans.

In Utah, the African Americans comprise just 1.06 percent of the population but they accounted for 10 percent of police killings over the past seven years - a disproportional rate of 9.21 times. In Minnesota, Black Americans are nearly four times as likely to be killed by law enforcement, with Black victims comprising 20 percent of those killed, despite comprising only 5 percent of the overall population.

Click to expand...

I not sure from where you got these data, but this reasoning is sloppy and dangerously misleading.

Yes 13% of the population are blacks, but these commit more than half of all homicides. Most of the victims are blacks. So blacks are 4x more likely than whites to commit a violent crime, yet they are only 3x more likely than whites to be shot by the police.

That suggests that the police are racist in their use of force...against whites.

Unless you control all of your statistics for the actual perpetrators of underlying crimes, they are meaningless.

To see why consider the following: People shot by the police are 96% male and 4% female yet males only make up 49% of the population.

Does this mean that the police are sexist?

lovelife34 said:

image

Click to expand...

As Mark Twain is attributed as saying, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. How many were armed? How many were in the process of committing a violent crime? How many resisted arrest? How many were shot by black officers? Those questions radically alter those statistics, and not one that points to black victimhood. When you break it down to REAL victims, unarmed, innocent people involved in no crime and not resisting, you get figures in the single digits.

There seem to be all kinds of problems within the Minneapolis PD:

Shooting of Justine Damond - Wikipedia

A person can lose their job for saying, “all lives matter.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si...cer-grant-napear-leave-all-lives-matter-tweet

rusmeister said:

As Mark Twain is attributed as saying, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. How many were armed? How many were in the process of committing a violent crime? How many resisted arrest? How many were shot by black officers? Those questions radically alter those statistics, and not one that points to black victimhood. When you break it down to REAL victims, unarmed, innocent people involved in no crime and not resisting, you get figures in the single digits.

Click to expand...

Exactly, people are acting they are all innocent people and breaking it down they are not. Making it seem like they are all in victim-hood feeds into the narrative how bad white people are and that us and that America must be destroyed at all cost even creating false ideas because the truth is the enemy to them.

charsan said:

Exactly, people are acting they are all innocent people and breaking it down they are not. Making it seem like they are all in victim-hood feeds into the narrative how bad white people are and that us and that America must be destroyed at all cost even creating false ideas because the truth is the enemy to them.

Click to expand...

The language you are using. "They are all innocent people....they are all in victimhood...... You have a very 'every man for himself' mentality. The opposite mentality of Christianity. Some white people are bad. It's the truth. Truth hurts sometimes. Some black people are bad. It's the truth. There is no Truth except the Word of God. The Bible has the only absolute Truth. The rest is just subjective opinions.

rusmeister said:

As Mark Twain is attributed as saying, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. How many were armed? How many were in the process of committing a violent crime? How many resisted arrest? How many were shot by black officers? Those questions radically alter those statistics, and not one that points to black victimhood. When you break it down to REAL victims, unarmed, innocent people involved in no crime and not resisting, you get figures in the single digits.

Click to expand...

You have a right to believe what you want, that is your prerogative. Not everyone has to be an ally.

I watched this a video of this poem in eighth grade. It is very relevant to this discussion.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=WqziaQxAsMA&usg=AOvVaw2no_fJHUhM14vaFWJyrK8K
The Hangman by Maurice Ogden
A short snippet:
"He smiled at me as I came down To the courthouse square through the silent town. And supple and stretched in his busy hand Was the yellow twist of the strand. And he whistled his tune as he tried the trap And it sprang down with a ready snap And then with a smile of awful command He laid his hand upon my hand. "You tricked me. Hangman!," I shouted then. "That your scaffold was built for other men … And I no henchman of yours," I cried, "You lied to me. Hangman. foully lied!" Then a twinkle grew in the buckshot eye, "Lied to you? Tricked you?" he said. "Not I. For I answered straight and I told you true" The scaffold was raised for none but you. For who has served me more faithfully Then you with your coward's hope?" said he, "And where are the others that might have stood Side by your side in the common good?," "Dead," I whispered, and sadly "Murdered," the Hangman corrected me: "First the alien, then the Jew … I did no more than you let me do." Beneath the beam that blocked the sky. None had stood so alone as I And the Hangman strapped me, and no voice there Cried "Stay!" for me in the empty square

Jesus4Madrid said:

I not sure from where you got these data, but this reasoning is sloppy and dangerously misleading.

Yes 13% of the population are blacks, but these commit more than half of all homicides. Most of the victims are blacks. So blacks are 4x more likely than whites to commit a violent crime, yet they are only 3x more likely than whites to be shot by the police.

That suggests that the police are racist in their use of force...against whites.

Unless you control all of your statistics for the actual perpetrators of underlying crimes, they are meaningless.

To see why consider the following: People shot by the police are 96% male and 4% female yet males only make up 49% of the population.

Does this mean that the police are sexist?

Click to expand...

I put the link where I got it in my comment, I believe. Men are more violent than women, in general. My point is that your statistics and mine paint the completely opposite picture...

lovelife34 said:

I put the link where I got it in my comment, I believe. Men are more violent than women, in general. My point is that your statistics and mine paint the completely opposite picture...

Click to expand...

You’ve discovered the flaw in your logic.

Yes, men commit more violent crime than women, so it is understandable that they are disproportionately shot by police.

And blacks commit more violent crime than whites, so it is understandable that they are disproportionately shot by police.

If you accept that men are more violent than women, you should also accept that blacks are more violent than whites.

When police respond to both with the use of force, it is neither a de facto indication of sexism nor racism.

Jesus4Madrid said:

You’ve discovered the flaw in your logic.

Yes, men commit more violent crime than women, so it is understandable that they are disproportionately shot by police.

And blacks commit more violent crime than whites, so it is understandable that they are disproportionately shot by police.

If you accept that men are more violent than women, you should also accept that blacks are more violent than whites.

When police respond to both with the use of force, it is neither an a priori indication of sexism nor racism.

Click to expand...

Actually no. That's not what I said. I said men are more violent in general. I'm not talking about committing crimes. I'm talking about men being more outwardly aggressive than women IN GENERAL. No it's not understandable that they are disproportionately shot by police. The circumstances matter. What was the crime these men committed? Did they resist arrest? There are so many variables you aren't accounting for.

Derek Chauvin was not responding to the use of force. This George Floyd event was a modern-day public lynching. You don't have to use a noose to lynch someone. Anyone who understands American history will see how this George Floyd thing was a lynching. If you watch the video, at one point, the officer taunted George, asking him to get up, then digging his knee even further into his neck. It was a way for Chauvin to assert his dominance over Floyd.

Black and white people commit different types of crimes, period (according to the media). If you are going to make simple (inaccurate) statements like that, then I can too. Is it fair for me to say whites are more likely to be corrupt and engage in things like embezzlement? Is it fair for me to say whites are more likely to engage in mass shootings in public places (churches, movie theaters, clubs). Is it fair for me to say whites are more likely to murder their wives? The media paints a very different picture regarding 'white crime' and 'black crime.'