Movement to defund police...

Sparagmos said:

I have mixed feelings. I want a complete overhaul of policing and that will cost a lot of $$. I also want them to get a ton more education and to be paid more to be commensurate with the level of education and responsibility they have.

I’m hoping here in Portland we could be a test case for major police reform. My dream is the police on the streets don’t carry guns and get rid of all those pockets. And maybe they can stop exclusively hiring dudes that look like they do steroids. Their arms are all twice the size of the average Portlander’s arm.

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Not carrying guns in country where they are surrounded by guns is not practical. As a country we are too far past that.

Policing right and fairly can be done. We see too many examples of it. We also see too many examples of it not being done correctly to not know what not to do at this point. They should not be treating Americans as enemy combatants.

Stuff like this shouldn't be happening:
Thread by @AliWatkins: So I wanna go through what I saw in Brooklyn last night. I was with a group of a few hundred protestors. They marched peacefully, actively d…

Medical Workers Fighting COVID Say Cops Are Attacking Them

https://www.vox.com/identities/2020...ed-journalists-covering-george-floyd-protests

Police are indiscriminate with who they lash out with. They see everybody, especially every brown body as a threat. An EMT worker shouldn't have to get off work and get hospitalized if people are being treated with human decency. There is no reason why abuse should be tolerated. No white neighborhood would tolerate police officers coming in and beating and harassing their children or citizens, yet PoC are expected to not only tolerated it, but welcome is as normal and expected.

There are plenty of places trying to get police reform done. They have practical common sense ideas that shouldn't be controversial.

Campaign Zero

8 Can't Wait

Color Of Change | We help you do something real about injustice.

Portal Page - Advancement Project

M4BL – Black like we never left

My Brother's Keeper Alliance - Obama Foundation

TLK Valentine said:

Movement to defund police gains 'unprecedented' support across US



Hmmm... not sure is this is the solution, but it's interesting...


Thoughts?

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Defunding the police is not going to fix the problem. We need more money to have officers go through more training on de-escalating, talking to people, and resolving issues without violence.

Most of the violence police deal with is the violence they caused by assuming the other guy is going to start something. And having that based on the cultural training they have had in their life.

We need to work on finding new ways for police to do their job that reduces violence and encourages the community to work with them.

cow451 said:

I would support the demilitarizing of the police through funding. Frankly, I'd rather see any decrease in military-style equipment be moved to raises for front line cops and increasing training and adjusting said training toward becoming better public servants.

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I agree. The problem with straight getting rid of the police is we move from a quasi-military force to an actual military force because the military will then be needed to keep order.

I think we also need to do a better job of specializing in the police force. The skills necessary for handling an armed robbery suspect and a mental health crisis are vastly different yet we expect every cop to be fully capable in doing both. While they should be able to handle each situation in a triage like manner, we should have different officers for both. Much like any doctor will help if you have a heart attack on a camping trip but a cardiologist will be who you will see in the hospital, not a podiatrist.

GreatLakes4Ever said:

I agree. The problem with straight getting rid of the police is we move from a quasi-military force to an actual military force because the military will then be needed to keep order.

I think we also need to do a better job of specializing in the police force. The skills necessary for handling an armed robbery suspect and a mental health crisis are vastly different yet we expect every cop to be fully capable in doing both. While they should be able to handle each situation in a triage like manner, we should have different officers for both. Much like any doctor will help if you have a heart attack on a camping trip but a cardiologist will be who you will see in the hospital, not a podiatrist.

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Yes, you make good points. Every cop in my part of the world has to work side jobs because pay is so low. If we want better cops, we have to train and pay them accordingly. The local police have become the primary contact for seriously mentally ill. We have to change that system as well.

If you do that then they'll just escalate the amount of corruption within their system to make up for their losses. If anything, they need more money to advance programs within the police that promote equality and tolerance. And a President that won't move to terminate such programs. Vote that lousy guy out!

Camden NJ didn't have issues with looting or attacking the police. A TV interview said that they had implemented reforms a while back.

In Camden, police and protesters take a different path after George Floyd’s killing

As chaos engulfed Philadelphia, peace reigned across the river in Camden

NJ announced reforms:

New Jersey announces law enforcement reforms in wake of protests against police brutality

Sparagmos said:

1) 4 years education in policing, including criminal justice, constitutional law, history of civil rights, sociology, conflict resolution, negotiation, deescalation, psychology, domestic violence, martial arts, tactics, etc. 2 years in they can begin working as interns but only under direct supervision. Cops should be people who are trained to counsel and work with People, particularly the mentally ill and criminal types. They should know more than you and me about human psychology and be masters of disarming and deescalation.

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Yes, especially the bolded part.

Sparagmos said:

2) Personality testing and evaluation to test performance under stress and quickness to anger. This is also evaluated during the internship. No one with “anger issues” or the inability to remain calm under duress should make the cut. The most important characteristic of a cop should be the ability to remain calm and think clearly under stress.

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Sparagmos said:

3)Pay cops a lot more. They have a huge responsibility. Then we can also expect more of them.

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Absolutely.

Sparagmos said:

4)Cops should be bonded or insured somehow so that the public doesn’t pay when they get sued for misconduct.

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Not sure how this would work, since they are effectively representing the city/town and not themselves.

Sparagmos said:

5)Cops don’t carry firearms on the street. Just non-lethal weapons. And they don’t dress like the military with all of those ridiculous pockets. They are there to deescalate problems, not look scary.

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Sure, though I don't object to them having a holstered sidearm. The whole military look is not needed. I don't object to having better weapons in the cruiser as situations can be very fluid.

Sparagmos said:

6)Separate agency with a board appointed by city council, to oversee police accountability that investigates all complaints of abuse. Investigations totally transparent. This board has meetings open to the public.

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Not sure why isn't thing yet. All interactions which resulted in a death MUST be investigated regardless of whether it was a justifiable shooting or not. Statistics must be maintained and released to the public every month.

Sparagmos said:

7) body cams on at all times, gross misconduct to turn off your body cam when working. Perhaps they are just uploaded automatically.

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Not just gross misconduct, but if it can be proven that the cam was turned off (and not defective or malfunctioned), it should be treated as destruction of evidence and obstruction of justice.

Sparagmos said:

8) iron tight whistleblower protection. Retaliation against a cop for reporting another cop should mean jail time.

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Considering that some retaliation includes delayed response for backup, this would be hard to prove, but with overt retaliation, yes lots of jail time.

cow451 said:

I would support the demilitarizing of the police through funding. Frankly, I'd rather see any decrease in military-style equipment be moved to raises for front line cops and increasing training and adjusting said training toward becoming better public servants.

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The police are being militarized because of terrorism have you checked how many terrorist organizations are in the USA. The police need the same weapons they have if not better.

Usually the feds step in after the police have, unless they are there already through an investigation.

Sparagmos said:

I have mixed feelings. I want a complete overhaul of policing and that will cost a lot of $$. I also want them to get a ton more education and to be paid more to be commensurate with the level of education and responsibility they have.

I’m hoping here in Portland we could be a test case for major police reform. My dream is the police on the streets don’t carry guns and get rid of all those pockets. And maybe they can stop exclusively hiring dudes that look like they do steroids. Their arms are all twice the size of the average Portlander’s arm.

Click to expand...

If you want police that cannot carry guns you may as well have no police. You will just have dead cops because the bad guys will still have guns.

cow451 said:

Yes, you make good points. Every cop in my part of the world has to work side jobs because pay is so low. If we want better cops, we have to train and pay them accordingly. The local police have become the primary contact for seriously mentally ill. We have to change that system as well.

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They would have more money if they weren't paying out for wrongful deaths, civil rights violations and abuses.Communities would help solve crime and work with the law enforcement. Right now there are black folks and other PoC who won't report on others, not because they want them to get away with crime, but because they don't want to see them killed or tortured at the hands of law enforcement. It's a win/win. I don't understand the instinctive push back people have against safe and fair policing.


Graph on law enforcement budgets. I'm not sure if it is just for police or includes correctional facilities, etc.
https://twitter.com/joshjhthomas/status/1268641948811722752?s=20

LA has paid out over 1 billion in the past 10 years:

Lawsuits Cost Taxpayers More Than $1 Billion Over Past Decade. Will That Go Up Under New Sheriff?

Mantishand said:

If you want police that cannot carry guns you may as well have no police. You will just have dead cops because the bad guys will still have guns.

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The London police would disagree with you.

Mama-Bear said:

You know the only thing that stops a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun.

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LOL.

In the rare case of a bad guy with a gun, the good guys with guns can assist. But most police work does not involve bad guys with guns.

Paulos23 said:

The London police would disagree with you.

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Can London citizens own guns like in America? That’s totally irrelevant. There are millions of guns in the states. Cops need guns for protection. This ain’t London.

Silmarien said:

This one I was wondering about a bit earlier, since I know it's supposed to work well in Britain, but the difference between Britain and the United States is that firearms are harder to come by there in general, so the police aren't going to get into a firefight with anyone. Would police in this country even be able to tackle something like gang violence without being armed?

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Good question. My thought is that there are some police with guns and/or they keep the guns ready in their trunks but most cops are t walking around with them.

cow451 said:

I hate to be a downer here, but I used to know a psychologist that did evaluations to prospective police academy cadets.... he said the results were often "scary".

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Yeah, so what if we could weed those guys out?

camille70 said:

Not carrying guns in country where they are surrounded by guns is not practical. As a country we are too far past that.

Policing right and fairly can be done. We see too many examples of it. We also see too many examples of it not being done correctly to not know what not to do at this point. They should not be treating Americans as enemy combatants.

Stuff like this shouldn't be happening:
Thread by @AliWatkins: So I wanna go through what I saw in Brooklyn last night. I was with a group of a few hundred protestors. They marched peacefully, actively d…

Medical Workers Fighting COVID Say Cops Are Attacking Them

https://www.vox.com/identities/2020...ed-journalists-covering-george-floyd-protests

Police are indiscriminate with who they lash out with. They see everybody, especially every brown body as a threat. An EMT worker shouldn't have to get off work and get hospitalized if people are being treated with human decency. There is no reason why abuse should be tolerated. No white neighborhood would tolerate police officers coming in and beating and harassing their children or citizens, yet PoC are expected to not only tolerated it, but welcome is as normal and expected.

There are plenty of places trying to get police reform done. They have practical common sense ideas that shouldn't be controversial.

Campaign Zero

8 Can't Wait

Color Of Change | We help you do something real about injustice.

Portal Page - Advancement Project

M4BL – Black like we never left

My Brother's Keeper Alliance - Obama Foundation

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Thanks for posting! Good stuff here.

cow451 said:

Yes, you make good points. Every cop in my part of the world has to work side jobs because pay is so low. If we want better cops, we have to train and pay them accordingly. The local police have become the primary contact for seriously mentally ill. We have to change that system as well.

Click to expand...

The entire criminal justice system needs reform as well. In Chicago, for instance, the court system is overcrowded and mismanaged. A person arrested for a shooting may be back on the street in days just to be arrested for another (I believe the record is three times in one week) and may eventually plea down to a short sentence in the end. You can imagine what that does to police morale.

Movement to defund police...

As long as they are the first ones the police cannot get to in time due to budget restraints.

Sparagmos said:

Yes! This is my quickly brainstormed list of what I’d like to see, that I posted on another thread yesterday:

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Sparagmos said:

1) 4 years education in policing, including criminal justice, constitutional law, history of civil rights, sociology, conflict resolution, negotiation, deescalation, psychology, domestic violence, martial arts, tactics, etc. 2 years in they can begin working as interns but only under direct supervision. Cops should be people who are trained to counsel and work with People, particularly the mentally ill and criminal types. They should know more than you and me about human psychology and be masters of disarming and deescalation.

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Most Police departments will only accept a candidate with a Bachelors (4 yr degree). Some smaller offices will allow someone with an Associates, (60 hours), but they have a deadline in which to finish their degrees. The time spent in Academy covers the training that you describe above - so to an extent it's already being done, but there is always room for improvement.

Sparagmos said:

2) Personality testing and evaluation to test performance under stress and quickness to anger. This is also evaluated during the internship. No one with “anger issues” or the inability to remain calm under duress should make the cut. The most important characteristic of a cop should be the ability to remain calm and think clearly under stress.

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Already being done.

Sparagmos said:

3)Pay cops a lot more. They have a huge responsibility. Then we can also expect more of them.

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Agree 100%

Sparagmos said:

4)Cops should be bonded or insured somehow so that the public doesn’t pay when they get sued for misconduct.

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They are already bonded through the municipality - they are municipal employees and there are insurances to cover them.

Sparagmos said:

5)Cops don’t carry firearms on the street. Just non-lethal weapons. And they don’t dress like the military with all of those ridiculous pockets. They are there to deescalate problems, not look scary.

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Violent armed criminals will not suddenly get rid of their weapons because the Police are no longer armed. That's not logical. Not sure what pockets have to do with anything.

Sparagmos said:

6)Separate agency with a board appointed by city council, to oversee police accountability that investigates all complaints of abuse. Investigations totally transparent. This board has meetings open to the public.

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Great Idea

Sparagmos said:

7) body cams on at all times, gross misconduct to turn off your body cam when working. Perhaps they are just uploaded automatically.

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Another good idea.

Sparagmos said:

8) iron tight whistleblower protection. Retaliation against a cop for reporting another cop should mean jail time.

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Already there, but stricter enforcement would be great!

Sparagmos said:

I know there have been instances where the whole police force was let go and replaced. In some places, this could be a way to start fresh and send the message of zero tolerance for abuse.

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In a tiny village that might be able to be done, but In a large city like NYC, replacing 36,000 cops overnight is not a viable action, especially with the training that is mentioned above.

Sparagmos said:

I have mixed feelings. I want a complete overhaul of policing and that will cost a lot of $$. I also want them to get a ton more education and to be paid more to be commensurate with the level of education and responsibility they have.

I’m hoping here in Portland we could be a test case for major police reform. My dream is the police on the streets don’t carry guns and get rid of all those pockets. And maybe they can stop exclusively hiring dudes that look like they do steroids. Their arms are all twice the size of the average Portlander’s arm.

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Just so I understand correctly. Your dream police force is a bunch of unarmed skinny dudes wearing spandex pants? Like they kid making my cofee?