The Lake Of Fire

FineLinen · Jun 3, 2020

martymonster said:
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

The dead are dead. The scriptures are very clear on this.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The range of meaning of the term “parable” =

Gk. parabole parabol in the New Testament closely parallels that of the Hebrew masal [l;v’m] in the Old Testament and related Hebrew literature.

As well as referring to narrative parables, the term identifies similitudes ( Matt 13:33 ; )

Allegories ( Ezek 17:2 ; 24:3 ; Matthew 13:18 Matthew 13:24 Matthew 13:36 ),

Proverbs ( Proverbs 1:1 Proverbs 1:6 ; Mark 3:23 ),

Riddles ( Psalm 78:2 ; Mark 7:17 ),

Symbols or types ( Heb 9:9 )

"Parable" is a general term for a figurative saying.

martymonster · Jun 3, 2020

FineLinen said:
The range of meaning of the term “parable” =

Gk. parabole parabol in the New Testament closely parallels that of the Hebrew masal [l;v’m] in the Old Testament and related Hebrew literature.

As well as referring to narrative parables, the term identifies similitudes ( Matt 13:33 ; )

Allegories ( Ezek 17:2 ; 24:3 ; Matthew 13:18 Matthew 13:24 Matthew 13:36 ),

Proverbs ( Proverbs 1:1 Proverbs 1:6 ; Mark 3:23 ),

Riddles ( Psalm 78:2 ; Mark 7:17 ),

Symbols or types ( Heb 9:9 )

"Parable" is a general term for a figurative saying.

We are surrounded by parables. We are a living parable.

bbbbbbb · Jun 3, 2020

Der Alte said:
"In the bosom of Abraham" is literal if one understands Jewish idioms. In that time people did not sit in chairs at a table when eating they reclined at a low table on their left elbow with their feet extended away from the table. The position of honor at a dinner was to the right or front of the host which was referred to as "in the bosom."
If a person "in the bosom" of the host wanted to speak to the host he would lean back and place his head on or almost on the chest, bosom, of the host. John 13:23
This explains how the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears. Luke 7:38
A woman did not crawl around under a table at the feet of men she did not know.

We see this described in detail in John's account of the last supper. An enormous misservice was done to Christianity by artists such as da Vinci who portray(ed) the last supper according to their dining customs.

bbbbbbb · Jun 3, 2020

martymonster said:
We are surrounded by parables. We are a living parable.

Likewise, we are all allegories, metaphors, and semaphores.

bbbbbbb · Jun 3, 2020

martymonster said:
Nope.

Thanks.

Der Alte · Jun 4, 2020

martymonster said:
We are surrounded by parables. We are a living parable.

And so we can make the Bible say almost anything we want it to. "That's not literal it's figurative."
However, there is an old maxim which states, "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense."

bbbbbbb · Jun 4, 2020

Der Alte said:
And so we can make the Bible say almost anything we want it to. "That's not literal it's figurative."
However, there is an old maxim which states, "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense."

We live in an age of twaddle. In order not to offend anyone we merge everything into one common sewer of meaning. Thus, it is impossible for contemporary people to understand the intricacies of language structure.

nolidad · Jun 4, 2020

FineLinen said:
The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases.

Do you see that little thingy? It is called a period!

And I agree with that verse with Gods Word 100% And I also agree with the rest of the verses from His Word 100% and some of them say that the wicked will never see life. See I take the whole counsel of God to form my opinions, not just my favorite verses that feed my own wishes.

See Fine Linen, I would like nothing more than to believe like you, and Clement and MArty and the other URer's here, but then I would have to reject the whole counsel of God concerning who goes where for all eternity!

nolidad · Jun 4, 2020

martymonster said:
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

The dead are dead. The scriptures are very clear on this.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The body is dead and rotting but the soul and spirit are not dead when the body dies!

2 Corinthians 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You would call Paul a Liar and thus all his writings suspect. For He absolutely declared when the body dies- we go to be with the Lord! The body is dead but the soul and spirit still live on!

And Lazarus was not a parable! There is nothing like all other parables have that identify it as a parable.

Also Jesus was teaching His disciples and not the crowds, and the Pharisees happened to overheart Him teaching the disciples. Jesus spoke pl;ainly to HIs disciples not in parables. The crowds He spoke to in parables!

Matthew 13:

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Parables were spoken to hide the truth from the masses!!!!

FineLinen · Jun 4, 2020

nolidad said:
And I agree with that verse with Gods Word 100% And I also agree with the rest of the verses from His Word 100% and some of them say that the wicked will never see life.

There are a few verses that you simply gloss over. In the case of the good, the bad (wicked), and the ugly (all of those ruined by sin), you fail to grasp the extent of the koine ta pavnte.

From Him the all come, thru Him the all exists, and in Him the ALL ENDS.

FineLinen · Jun 4, 2020

Questions requiring answers

Will the devil and all his works be destroyed? -- (Heb. 2:14; 1 John 3:8)
Will death, the last enemy, be swallowed up in victory and destroyed? -- (Isa. 25:6-8; 1 Cor. 15:26-54)
Will God carry His original design into execution?
Can finite man frustrate the purposes of the Almighty?

nolidad · Jun 4, 2020

FineLinen said:
There are a few verses that you simply gloss over. In the case of the good, the bad (wicked), and the ugly (all of those ruined by sin), you fail to grasp the extent of the koine ta pavnte.

From Him the all come, thru Him the all exists, and in Him the ALL ENDS.

No I do not fail to grasp, I just take all things in counsel and realize that only the believers recieve the goodies.

FineLinen said:
Questions requiring answers

Will the devil and all his works be destroyed? -- (Heb. 2:14; 1 John 3:8)=

Will death, the last enemy, be swallowed up in victory and destroyed? -- (Isa. 25:6-8; 1 Cor. 15:26-54)

Will God carry His original design into execution?

Can finite man frustrate the purposes of the Almighty?

Very subtle deception here!

1. Yes but you know not what destroys mean when referring to spiritusal things I take it!

2. Yes death will be destroyed in the lake of fire!

3. Yes

4. Never!

But you forget that before God restores His original design these things happen first:

Rev. 20

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Then the new heaven and earth happen!

Revelation 21 King James Version (KJV)
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

what about teh lost who were thrown in to the lake of fire?

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. (BTW these are int eh imperative which means they are commands)

Sorry but the word of God trumps your wonderful sounding phrases and
flourishes of wishful thinking!

FineLinen · Jun 4, 2020

nolidad said:
No I do not fail to grasp, I just take all things in counsel and realize that only the believers recieve the goodies.

Very subtle deception here!

1. Yes but you know not what destroys mean when referring to spiritusal things I take it!

2. Yes death will be destroyed in the lake of fire!

3. Yes

4. Never!

It matters ziltch what happens first, second, third or fourth. In the end the ta pavnte is consummated in Abba!

The ALL!

martymonster · Jun 4, 2020

nolidad said:
The body is dead and rotting but the soul and spirit are not dead when the body dies!

2 Corinthians 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You would call Paul a Liar and thus all his writings suspect. For He absolutely declared when the body dies- we go to be with the Lord! The body is dead but the soul and spirit still live on!

And Lazarus was not a parable! There is nothing like all other parables have that identify it as a parable.

Also Jesus was teaching His disciples and not the crowds, and the Pharisees happened to overheart Him teaching the disciples. Jesus spoke pl;ainly to HIs disciples not in parables. The crowds He spoke to in parables!

Matthew 13:

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Parables were spoken to hide the truth from the masses!!!!

So those who are asleep in the earth, are actually awake?
That makes no sense, whatsoever! Also, what exactly is the point of a first and second resurrection?

And what exactly sets Lazarus and the Rich -man apart from other parables? Is it because it says that "there was a certain man" It totally reads like a parable. Plus, it specifically says, he only taught in parables.

Der Alte · Jun 4, 2020

martymonster said:
So those who are asleep in the earth, are actually awake?
That makes no sense, whatsoever! Also, what exactly is the point of a first and second resurrection?
And what exactly sets Lazarus and the Rich -man apart from other parables? Is it because it says that "there was a certain man" It totally reads like a parable. Plus, it specifically says, he only taught in parables.

No Lazarus and the rich man does not read like a parable. "Parable" is from the Greek word "paraboleo" to throw/lay beside. Something unknown/misunderstood is compared to something similar which is known/understood. All of the unquestioned parables have this comparison "The kingdom of heaven is like unto..."
There is no such comparison in Lazarus and the rich man. It might be some other literary device but not a parable.
The only thing known is two people lived and died.
The main thing that distinguishes it from the unquestioned parables, it names two specific persons Lazarus, otherwise unknown, and a specific historical person, Abraham. If Abraham was not in the place and did not say the things Jesus stated, Jesus was lying.

bbbbbbb · Jun 4, 2020

Der Alte said:
No Lazarus and the rich man does not read like a parable. "Parable" is from the Greek word "paraboleo" to throw/lay beside. Something unknown/misunderstood is compared to something similar which is known/understood. All of the unquestioned parables have this comparison "The kingdom of heaven is like unto..."
There is no such comparison in Lazarus and the rich man. It might be some other literary device but not a parable.
The only thing known is two people lived and died.
The main thing that distinguishes it from the unquestioned parables, it names two specific persons Lazarus, otherwise unknown, and a specific historical person, Abraham. If Abraham was not in the place and did not say the things Jesus stated, Jesus was lying.

Pearls before swine! Pearls before swine! Deaf ears and blind eyes all around.

Der Alte · Jun 4, 2020

bbbbbbb said:
Pearls before swine! Pearls before swine! Deaf ears and blind eyes all around.

Don't I know it. I have been active here since Clinton was prez. I realized early on that hard core members of heterodox religious groups are almost impossible to reach but I toil on in hopes I can reach some on the fringe, thinking about joining or leaving such groups. Them folks post their arguments and I post the real-deal. And I have had some success. Enough to keep me going.

Gregory Thompson · Jun 4, 2020

FineLinen said:
The Lake Of Fire

1. We will consider all passages of Scripture speaking of the Lake.

2. What is the Lake of Fire?

3. What is not the Lake of Fire.

4. What is the defining ingredient of the Lake.

5. Compare our God the Consuming Fire & the Lake of Fire.

So if the lake of fire is the second death, how is this related to the first death freeing people from sins? Romans 6:7

ClementofA · Jun 4, 2020

Der Alte said:
Don't I know it. I have been active here since Clinton was prez. I realized early on that hard core members of heterodox religious groups are almost impossible to reach but I toil on in hopes I can reach some on the fringe, thinking about joining or leaving such groups. Them folks post their arguments and I post the real-deal. And I have had some success. Enough to keep me going.

To God be the glory.

Do you think the teaching of universalism will keep any of the elect from being saved from the lake of fire? If so, why, for Scripture says:

Jer.29:13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God, or I speak from Myself. (Jn.7:17).

So are you wasting your time here opposing universalism? Shouldn't you instead be sharing the gospel with the unsaved to save them from being tortured in fire forever by your God? Yet here you are chatting away the day with Christians.

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ClementofA · Jun 4, 2020

Michael Collum said:
So if the lake of fire is the second death, how is this related to the first death freeing people from sins? Romans 6:7

The context of Rom.6:7 is spiritual death:

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

The Lake Of Fire

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