Did You Really Not Know That Christ Must Be Obeyed? --Yes, You!

Bible Highlighter said:

Second, God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously, and godly in this present world.

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Do you know what Titus 2:11-12 is actually telling us?



Do you understand from Titus how God's grace instructs us to live godly lives?

And, it applies to all men. Not just believers. Morality in all men is a reflection of godliness.

Religiot said:

It's true, that those who want to turn the grace of God into a license to sin, will become ridiculous in their twisting of scripture, to the point that they start to directly contradict the very gospel, and ultimately end-up denying Jesus Christ (Yehoshua Messiah), as their Lord.

When this is truly flushed out, you are always left with just two kinds of people, those who do the will of God, and those who do not.

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The grace of God is not a license to sin. But, it also does not mean that someone saved by grace is now incapable of sin. You got to get a balance there!

If anything? Being saved by grace automatically denies a license to sin. For, God does not punish and discipline the unbeliever!

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children.
For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not
disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not
legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Hebrews 12:7-8

You got to get a balance there! Its the unbeliever who has the license to sin.

Jesus was not selective in what sins he would die for. When David committed adultery with Bathsheba and had Uriah murdered, Jesus bore those sins in agony as He hung on the Cross.

Just prior to the Bathsheba incident God had been blessing David abundantly. David was saved when he fell into those sins. And, David suffered abundantly in his discipline afterwards. But, David recovered and knew he was forgiven. Why? David perceived correctly the heart of God.

genez said:

Do you know what Titus 2:11-12 is actually telling us?

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all men.
It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and
to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age."
​

Do you understand from Titus how God's grace instructs us to live godly lives?

And, it applies to all men. Not just believers. Morality in all men is a reflection of godliness.

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Only God alone is good. For Jesus said, “there is none good but one, that is, God.” (Mark 10:18). So any or all true good done (godliness) is merely a reflection of God living in a true born again genuine Christian. He does the work through the believer. An unbeliever cannot abide in God and as a result they cannot bring forth the true godliness as described in Titus 2:11-12. Jesus said, “without me ye can do nothing.” (John 15:5).

A person first needs to be saved by God's grace in order to first receive the Lord (See: John 1:12, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3:16, Romans 5:17, Revelation 3:20). Then they are able to enter the Sanctification Process and live holy by God's power.

“Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.” (Philippians 1:11).

genez said:

The grace of God is not a license to sin. But, it also does not mean that someone saved by grace is now incapable of sin. You got to get a balance there!

If anything? Being saved by grace automatically denies a license to sin. For, God does not punish and discipline the unbeliever!

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children.
For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not
disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not
legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Hebrews 12:7-8

You got to get a balance there! Its the unbeliever who has the license to sin.

Jesus was not selective in what sins he would die for. When David committed adultery with Bathsheba and had Uriah murdered, Jesus bore those sins in agony as He hung on the Cross.

Just prior to the Bathsheba incident God had been blessing David abundantly. David was saved when he fell into those sins. And, David suffered abundantly in his discipline afterwards. But, David recovered and knew he was forgiven. Why? David perceived correctly the heart of God.

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If David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder, then that means we do have a license to sin or to sin and still be saved. But that's simply not the case. If you were to read Psalms 51 again, it does not sound like a man who already felt forgiven or saved. It sounds like David was seeking forgiveness and salvation again.

Just look at more carefully at the Parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15. This proves that one can be saved and then lose their salvation, and then regain it again. When the prodigal son returned home, his father said two times that his son was “dead” and he is “alive AGAIN.”

The parable is speaking in spiritual terms. He was dead spiritually, and he became alive AGAIN by seeking forgiveness with his father. The analogy is that we need to seek forgiveness with our everlasting father (Jesus). For Jesus will one day resurrect the faithful believer bodily. They will in a sense be the father of Jesus physically because they will have the same DNA as Jesus in the flesh and blood bodily resurrection upon the New Earth.

Now, if you need a second witness in Scripture, just look at James; James 5:19-20 expresses the same truth, as well.

Bible Highlighter said:

Only God alone is good. For Jesus said, “there is none good but one, that is, God.” (Mark 10:18). So any or all true good done (godliness) is merely a reflection of God living in a true born again genuine Christian. He does the work through the believer. An unbeliever cannot abide in God and as a result they cannot bring forth the true godliness as described in Titus 2:11-12. Jesus said, “without me ye can do nothing.” (John 15:5).

A person first needs to be saved by God's grace in order to first receive the Lord (See: John 1:12, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3:16, Romans 5:17, Revelation 3:20). Then they are able to enter the Sanctification Process and live holy by God's power.

“Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.” (Philippians 1:11).

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Thanks for the wordy non-answer.

genez said:

Thanks for the wordy non-answer.

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It was an answer. You just did not understand it. I basically was saying that an unbeliever cannot do godliness according to Titus 2:11-12. Only a believer can because it is God who does the good work through a believer. An unbeliever may be able to imitate good works but their work is not a direct result of God doing the good work through them. Only God alone is good. All other forms of good works that are not the works of God are poor imitations and fakes.

Bible Highlighter said:

If David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder, then that means we do have a license to sin or to sin and still be saved.

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You have a license to commit suicide. Does that mean having that license, you would want to?

Its sounds like to me... If you believed you had a license to sin? You would be sinning as much as you can. Is that why you fear eternal security so much? After all? To you.. Having "license" makes something that is bad suddenly attractive. Where is your logic?

Bible Highlighter said:

It was an answer. You just did not understand it. .

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I understand you. Not the answer.

The answer you gave was a rambling. It reveals your not knowing what the Scriptures actually teach in Titus 2:11-12. Would you not like to know?


God is exposing something about your natural self that hopefully you will recognize, so you can become transformed more into the image of the Lord by better understanding the Word of God.

Anyone can be religious and memorize verses. That does not produce spiritual transformation. Understanding those verses is what the Lord wants to see.

So far you think you have nothing to learn.

genez said:

You have a license to commit suicide. Does that mean having that license, you would want to?

Its sounds like to me... If you believed you had a license to sin? You would be sinning as much as you can. Is that why you fear eternal security so much? After all? To you.. Having "license" makes something that is bad suddenly attractive. Where is your logic?

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Most (not all) Eternal Security Proponents I have encountered rarely advocate holy living as a necessity. Many of them have told me that one cannot stop committing sin (the ones mentioned in the Bible) this side of Heaven. They love to wave 1 John 1:8 and Romans 7:14-24 like they are banner flags. Little do they realize that they are not reading these parts of Scripture in context. Does this belief affect how men think and live? Yes, absolutely.

Take for example, George Sodini.

On August 4th, 2009, 48 year old George Sodini shot 9 people in a Pittsburgh Pennsylvania health club.

George Sodini, mass murderer and professed Christian Eternal Securist wrote; “Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.”

Source:
George Sodini - Eternal Security Proponent - Mass Murderer, & Suicide Victim.

John MacArthur (Calvinist):

At the trial, MacArthur, 45, is seeking to clarify his church’s teaching on suicide. “It’s not only a sin, it’s illegal,” he says. “But we teach that even if a believer takes his own life, the Lord will still receive him into His presence.”

Source:
Fundamentalist Clergymen Face Charges of 'Malpractice' When a Parishioner Turns to Suicide

Martin Luther said:

"No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day"


Source:
'Let Your Sins Be Strong, from 'The Wittenberg Project;' 'The Wartburg Segment', translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521.

If such statements do not shock you, I cannot help you.

genez said:

I understand you. Not the answer.

The answer you gave was a rambling. It reveals your not knowing what the Scriptures actually teach in Titus 2:11-12. Would you not like to know?

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. (not just believers)
It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled,
upright and godly lives in this present age."​

God is exposing something about your natural self that hopefully you will recognize, so you can become transformed more into the image of the Lord by better understanding the Word of God.

Anyone can be religious and memorize verses. That does not produce spiritual transformation. Understanding those verses is what the Lord wants to see.

So far you think you have nothing to learn.

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No person can enter the Sanctification Process unless they are first saved by God's grace. To miss this is to miss the basics as taught in Scripture. You said that Titus 2:11-12 is for even unbelievers. No. It is for the believer not the unbeliever. God's grace teaches us. Unbelievers do not have God's grace. Thus they cannot be taught by God's grace. A person has to first believe God and receive His grace, in order to be taught by God's grace.

Bible Highlighter said:

No person can enter the Sanctification Process unless they are first saved by God's grace. To miss this is to miss the basics as taught in Scripture. You said that Titus 2:11-12 is for even unbelievers. No. It is for the believer not the unbeliever. God's grace teaches us. Unbelievers do not have God's grace. Thus they cannot be taught by God's grace.

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Titus is not talking about spiritual sanctification. Otherwise, it could not involve all men. Which it does. And, has been doing for centuries. Is every unbeliever you know ungodly and immoral? Some are very moral in attitude.

That was a hint as to what the Greek found in Titus 2:11-12 speaks about.

genez said:

You have a license to commit suicide. Does that mean having that license, you would want to?

Its sounds like to me... If you believed you had a license to sin? You would be sinning as much as you can. Is that why you fear eternal security so much? After all? To you.. Having "license" makes something that is bad suddenly attractive. Where is your logic?

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If they passed a law tomorrow that said that there was no penalty for speeding on the highways in your State, what do you think is going to happen? More people will speed and get into traffic accidents. It is the fear of penalty of a fine that deters many (not all) men from speeding. Now, imagine if they passed a law that said that you will get 1 month in jail, and 5,000 dollar fine for going 10 miles over the speed limit on the highway. Don't you think more people will be more careful to obey in this instance?
Sure they would. They would be motivated by the punishment.

genez said:

Titus is not talking about spiritual sanctification. Otherwise, it could not involve all men. Which it does. And, has been doing for centuries. Is every unbeliever you know ungodly and immoral? Soem are very moral in attitude.

That was a hint as to what the Greek found in Titus 2:11-12 speaks about.

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Just because God's grace has appeared to all men, does not mean that they have God's grace, and it does not mean that God's grace can teach the unbeliever to live godly. Verse 11 says that God's grace teaches US (the believers). Paul is writing to Timothy who is a believer. Paul is also referring to himself (who is a believer) in verse 11; Hence, why he says “us." If Paul wanted to include the whole world or all men in being taught godliness by God's grace, then he would have said, “the grace of God hath appeared... teaching all men of every nation that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.”

But that's not what Paul said; He said...

11 “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”
(Titus 2:11-12).

genez said:

Titus is not talking about spiritual sanctification. Otherwise, it could not involve all men. Which it does. And, has been doing for centuries. Is every unbeliever you know ungodly and immoral? Soem are very moral in attitude.

That was a hint as to what the Greek found in Titus 2:11-12 speaks about.

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Just because grace appears to a person does not mean they understand grace, and it does not mean they have grace. One has to have grace in order to be taught by grace. That's kind of basic.

genez said:

Titus is not talking about spiritual sanctification. Otherwise, it could not involve all men. Which it does. And, has been doing for centuries. Is every unbeliever you know ungodly and immoral? Soem are very moral in attitude.

That was a hint as to what the Greek found in Titus 2:11-12 speaks about.

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Take for example marriage. In order for a marriage to be successful and happy, there needs to be true genuine love on both sides. If not, it will fail. Love teaches a married couple to keep their marriage together and to build each other up and be happily married. Without love in a marriage, it is doomed to unhappiness and possibly divorce. We need to have love in order to be taught loving principles in building a marriage. Without love, it will never work. It's the same with God's grace. If they don't have grace, they cannot be taught by grace. Just because grace appears before them does not mean they understand God's grace, and it does not mean they can be taught by grace.

genez said:

Titus is not talking about spiritual sanctification. Otherwise, it could not involve all men. Which it does. And, has been doing for centuries. Is every unbeliever you know ungodly and immoral? Soem are very moral in attitude.

That was a hint as to what the Greek found in Titus 2:11-12 speaks about.

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I love your quote from Isaac Walton! He was a great and profound writer.

Bible Highlighter said:

If they passed a law tomorrow that said that there was no penalty for speeding on the highways in your State, what do you think is going to happen?

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My alarm clock would go off.

Because to have your example be seen as happening? I would have had to be dreaming.

genez said:

My alarm clock would go off.
Because to have your example be seen as happening? I would have had to be dreaming.

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Stranger things have happened on this planet. Besides, despite the imperfection of my parable, I should not have to point out to you that the punishment of disobeying certain laws generally speaking are effective deterrents. That is kind of a given, but if one does not want to see such a truth because it does not align with their beliefs, then by all means.... it is your free will choice to not see such a truth.

pescador said:

I love your quote from Isaac Walton! He was a great and profound writer.

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He fished in an era when one could hear a small pebble hit the water at one hundred feet. God blessed his inner man in a time when the beauty of nature was what he had for excellent entertainment.

It was that quote that struck me deeply when I read it. I really read only a little of his works.

genez said:

My alarm clock would go off.

Because to have your example be seen as happening? I would have had to be dreaming.

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Okay. Let's look at Scripture:

“...by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.” (Proverbs 16:6).

“And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.” (Job 28:28).

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

“God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.” (James 4:6).

7 “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.” (Psalms 19:7-11).