Historicist Only Historicism’s Missing Connections

Jerryhuerta

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The post is intended for Historicists of the Premill persuasion and is an excerpt from here.

It repeatedly appears that one must look back to discern the fulfillment of prophecy. This is upheld by a good number of expositors such as Sanford Calvin Yoder, who wrote in his book on prophecy: “In the light of everything that has happened to the interpreters, who so minutely interpret the predictive elements of Scripture, the old adage of the fathers still stands—that prophecies are best interpreted after they are fulfilled.”[1] What makes us differ from E.B. Elliott or H. Grattan Guinness is our perspective, that is the advancement of the historical phenomenon that they were not privy to witness. In other words, progressive revelation must be taken into account in evaluating Elliott or Guinness today. One thing that is evident in light of the adage Yoder expressed, their failure to comprehend a good deal of the connections in Revelation and other scripture relegates much of their work to the fire of 1 Corinthians 3:13-15. Furthermore, it is hard to deny this fire is what is depicted by the trumpets in Revelation.

Elliott’s failure to connect Revelation 15:1-2 with 11:14-18 resulted in the untenable beliefs that all six vials of God’s wrath were poured out during the time of the French Revolution.

The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Revelation 11:14-18)​

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. (Revelation 15:1-2)​

We are awaiting only the fulfillment of the pouring out of the seventh vial in Elliott’s interpretation. Even so, Revelation 11:18 makes it plain that the wrath of God is confined to the time of the seventh and last trumpet, “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” The vials containing the final seven plagues are all poured out during the time when the dead in Christ are raised, which obviously did not occur during the time of the French Revolution. And since the elect of God are not appointed to wrath (John 3:36 Romans 5:9 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9), there is every indication that the ascent of the two witnesses, “up to heaven in a cloud,” in Revelation 11:12 is the same account depicted in the subsequent verse 18 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Furthermore, it is these events that led directly to the rise of the eighth head, “the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit” (verse 7). The Greek compels us to equate or identify said beast with the beast in Revelation 17:8, the final head, the restored papacy that makes war with Christ at his return. However, the traditionalists overlook this identity in order to place the two witnesses in our past. Nevertheless, any interpretation that dismisses this connection must produce the historical correspondence concerning the “sealing” that inhibits the locusts from hurting the men with “the seal of God in their foreheads,” without a plethora of assumptions and ad hoc explanations. There is no such explanation by traditionalists that do not have a plethora of assumptions and ad hoc explanations. In recognition of this connection a departure from the “day year” principle is warranted, which also reveals Revelation 11 as an antitype of Yom Kippur, the cleansing of the sanctuary; i.e., “measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein” (verse 1). Nineteenth-century Historicist, author, and editor of Review and Herald, Uriah Smith, revealed that prophetic time ends “in the days of the voice of the seventh angel” (Revelation 10:7).

‘Time No Longer.’ What is the meaning of this most solemn declaration? It cannot mean that with the message of this angel, time, as computed in this world, in comparison with eternity, should end. The next verse speaks of the days of the voice of the seventh angel, and Revelation 11:15–19 gives us some of the events to take place under this trumpet in the present state. It cannot mean probationary time, for that does not cease until Christ closes His work as priest, which is not until after the seventh angel has begun to sound. (Revelation 11:15, 15:5–8.) It must therefore mean prophetic time, for there is no other to which it can refer.[2]​

All the events of chapter 11 are confined to the “days of the voice of the seventh angel,” and as such, the 1260 day in 11:3 and five months in 9:5 cannot be determined by the “day year” principle.

[1] Sanford Calvin Yoder, He Gave Some Prophets (Wipf & Stock Pub., October 1, 1998), 73.
[2] Uriah Smith, Daniel and Revelation, (Review and Herald Publishing, 2009), 209.
 
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The post is intended for Historicists of the Premill persuasion and is an excerpt from here.

It repeatedly appears that one must look back to discern the fulfillment of prophecy. This is upheld by a good number of expositors such as Sanford Calvin Yoder, who wrote in his book on prophecy: “In the light of everything that has happened to the interpreters, who so minutely interpret the predictive elements of Scripture, the old adage of the fathers still stands—that prophecies are best interpreted after they are fulfilled.”[1] What makes us differ from E.B. Elliott or H. Grattan Guinness is our perspective, that is the advancement of the historical phenomenon that they were not privy to witness. In other words, progressive revelation must be taken into account in evaluating Elliott or Guinness today. One thing that is evident in light of the adage Yoder expressed, their failure to comprehend a good deal of the connections in Revelation and other scripture relegates much of their work to the fire of 1 Corinthians 3:13-15. Furthermore, it is hard to deny this fire is what is depicted by the trumpets in Revelation.

Elliott’s failure to connect Revelation 15:1-2 with 11:14-18 resulted in the untenable beliefs that all six vials of God’s wrath were poured out during the time of the French Revolution.

The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Revelation 11:14-18)​

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. (Revelation 15:1-2)​

We are awaiting only the fulfillment of the pouring out of the seventh vial in Elliott’s interpretation. Even so, Revelation 11:18 makes it plain that the wrath of God is confined to the time of the seventh and last trumpet, “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” The vials containing the final seven plagues are all poured out during the time when the dead in Christ are raised, which obviously did not occur during the time of the French Revolution. And since the elect of God are not appointed to wrath (John 3:36 Romans 5:9 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9), there is every indication that the ascent of the two witnesses, “up to heaven in a cloud,” in Revelation 11:12 is the same account depicted in the subsequent verse 18 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Furthermore, it is these events that led directly to the rise of the eighth head, “the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit” (verse 7). The Greek compels us to equate or identify said beast with the beast in Revelation 17:8, the final head, the restored papacy that makes war with Christ at his return. However, the traditionalists overlook this identity in order to place the two witnesses in our past. Nevertheless, any interpretation that dismisses this connection must produce the historical correspondence concerning the “sealing” that inhibits the locusts from hurting the men with “the seal of God in their foreheads,” without a plethora of assumptions and ad hoc explanations. There is no such explanation by traditionalists that do not have a plethora of assumptions and ad hoc explanations. In recognition of this connection a departure from the “day year” principle is warranted, which also reveals Revelation 11 as an antitype of Yom Kippur, the cleansing of the sanctuary; i.e., “measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein” (verse 1). Nineteenth-century Historicist, author, and editor of Review and Herald, Uriah Smith, revealed that prophetic time ends “in the days of the voice of the seventh angel” (Revelation 10:7).

‘Time No Longer.’ What is the meaning of this most solemn declaration? It cannot mean that with the message of this angel, time, as computed in this world, in comparison with eternity, should end. The next verse speaks of the days of the voice of the seventh angel, and Revelation 11:15–19 gives us some of the events to take place under this trumpet in the present state. It cannot mean probationary time, for that does not cease until Christ closes His work as priest, which is not until after the seventh angel has begun to sound. (Revelation 11:15, 15:5–8.) It must therefore mean prophetic time, for there is no other to which it can refer.[2]​

All the events of chapter 11 are confined to the “days of the voice of the seventh angel,” and as such, the 1260 day in 11:3 and five months in 9:5 cannot be determined by the “day year” principle.

[1] Sanford Calvin Yoder, He Gave Some Prophets (Wipf & Stock Pub., October 1, 1998), 73.
[2] Uriah Smith, Daniel and Revelation, (Review and Herald Publishing, 2009), 209.


In my mind, the day year principle from Ezekiel is to be used for all time prophecies especially in Daniel and Revelation, the longest being the 2,300 Day (Years) Prophecy.

https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1517&context=jats
 
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Jerryhuerta

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In my mind, the day year principle from Ezekiel is to be used for all time prophecies especially in Daniel and Revelation, the longest being the 2,300 Day (Years) Prophecy.

https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1517&context=jats

The historicist’s traditional view conflicts with Revelation 17:8, 11, which reveals the eighth head comes up out of the abyss only after the interval of the seventh ends. The eighth head is the last manifestation of the beast with seven heads, one of the five that are fallen, and it cannot have come up immediately following the protestant reformation, at the breaking of the power of the papacy. The traditionalist view has the eighth head rise at the same time its power is broken by Protestantism, which is a huge fallacy. It is the sea-beast, the fifth head, Protestantism wounds, and for this the reason the sea-beast “is not” while the sixth is active. The time the sixth head is active is the time Protestantism has the sea-beast subdued, and she rides the beast with two horns. Historicism is afflicted with breaking John’s linear narration arbitrarily and overlooking recapitulation when warranted. As revealed in the previous work, Historicism’s Missing Connections, the phenomena of the two witnesses is in our future, the period of the seventh trumpet, at the rise of the eighth head, and the day-year principle is closed, according to Revelation 10:6-7. Otherwise, the thousand years of Revelation 20 would be subject to be interpreted as prophetic time.

The Historicist: The Seven Trumpets
 
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The historicist’s traditional view conflicts with Revelation 17:8, 11, which reveals the eighth head comes up out of the abyss only after the interval of the seventh ends. The eighth head is the last manifestation of the beast with seven heads, one of the five that are fallen, and it cannot have come up immediately following the protestant reformation, at the breaking of the power of the papacy. The traditionalist view has the eighth head rise at the same time its power is broken by Protestantism, which is a huge fallacy. It is the sea-beast, the fifth head, Protestantism wounds, and for this the reason the sea-beast “is not” while the sixth is active. The time the sixth head is active is the time Protestantism has the sea-beast subdued, and she rides the beast with two horns. Historicism is afflicted with breaking John’s linear narration arbitrarily and overlooking recapitulation when warranted. As revealed in the previous work, Historicism’s Missing Connections, the phenomena of the two witnesses is in our future, the period of the seventh trumpet, at the rise of the eighth head, and the day-year principle is closed, according to Revelation 10:6-7. Otherwise, the thousand years of Revelation 20 would be subject to be interpreted as prophetic time.

The Historicist: The Seven Trumpets


Hi, love your dedication and the time you took to post this Eschatology. I want to post with the right impression given, in that whatever I post please view it as a polite response, with no strife in it.

Ezekiel 4:6 "I have laid on you a day for each year" In my view and in the Eschatology understanding the denomination I am a part of, understands this applying to only time prophecies that are given in days. The 1,000 years referring to the enemy being chained is given in years so I and the denomination I belong to, won't apply the Ezekiel principle to it.


In my view, Revelation 17:8-11 refers to what Uriah Smith is saying

Daniel and Revelation by Uriah Smith

VERSE 8. "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition." DAR 659.1

Rome in Three Phases. — "The beast of which the angel here speaks is evidently the scarlet beast. A wild beast, like the one thus introduced, is the symbol of an oppressive and persecuting power; and while the Roman power as a nation had a long, uninterrupted existence, it passed through certain phases during which this symbol would be inapplicable to it, and during which time, consequently, the beast, in such prophecies as the present, might be said not to be, or not to exist. Thus Rome in its pagan form was a persecuting power in its relation to the people of God, during which time it constituted the beast that was; but the empire was nominally converted to Christianity; there was a transition from paganism to another phase of religion falsely called Christian; and during a brief period, while this transition was going on, it lost its ferocious and persecuting character, and then it could be said of the beast that it was not. Time passed on, and it degenerated into popery, and again assumed its bloodthirsty and oppressive character, and then it constituted the beast that “yet is,” or in John’s day was to be." DAR 659.2


The Seven Heads. — "The seven heads are explained to be, first, seven mountains, and then seven kings, or forms of government; for the expression in verse 10, “And there are seven kings,” should read, and these are seven kings. “Five are fallen,” says the angel, or passed away; “one is;” the sixth was then reigning; another was to come, and continue for a short space; and when the beast reappeared in its bloody and persecuting character, it was to be under the eighth form of government, which was to continue till the beast went into perdition. The seven forms of government that have existed in the Roman empire are usually enumerated as follows: (1) kingly; (2) consular; (3) decemvirate; (4) dictatorial; (5) triumvirate; (6) imperial; and (7) papal. Kings, consuls, decemvirs, dictators, and triumvirs had passed away in John’s day. He was living under the imperial form. Two more were to arise after his time. One was only to continue a short space, and hence is not usually reckoned among the heads; while the last, which is usually denominated the seventh, is in reality the eighth. The head which was to succeed the imperial, and continue a short space, could not be the papal; for that has continued longer than all the rest put together. We understand, therefore, that the papal head is the eighth, and that a head of short continuance intervened between the imperial and papal. In fulfillment of this, we read that after the imperial form had been abolished, there was a ruler who for about the space of sixty years governed Rome under the title of the “Exarch of Ravenna.” Thus we have the connecting link between the imperial and papal heads. The third phase of the beast that was, and is not, and yet is, is the Roman power under the rule of the papacy; and in this form it ascends out of the bottomless pit, or bases its power on pretensions which have no foundation but a mixture of Christian errors and pagan superstitions." DAR 659.3


Sincerely,
Cordell
 
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Cordell

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The historicist’s traditional view conflicts with Revelation 17:8, 11, which reveals the eighth head comes up out of the abyss only after the interval of the seventh ends. The eighth head is the last manifestation of the beast with seven heads, one of the five that are fallen, and it cannot have come up immediately following the protestant reformation, at the breaking of the power of the papacy. The traditionalist view has the eighth head rise at the same time its power is broken by Protestantism, which is a huge fallacy. It is the sea-beast, the fifth head, Protestantism wounds, and for this the reason the sea-beast “is not” while the sixth is active. The time the sixth head is active is the time Protestantism has the sea-beast subdued, and she rides the beast with two horns. Historicism is afflicted with breaking John’s linear narration arbitrarily and overlooking recapitulation when warranted. As revealed in the previous work, Historicism’s Missing Connections, the phenomena of the two witnesses is in our future, the period of the seventh trumpet, at the rise of the eighth head, and the day-year principle is closed, according to Revelation 10:6-7. Otherwise, the thousand years of Revelation 20 would be subject to be interpreted as prophetic time.

The Historicist: The Seven Trumpets

In my mind, the two witnesses refer to the Old Testament and the New Testament in ones dispensation. Seeing that Revelation is filled with a lot of symbolic meaning that has to be interpreted, the description of the Two Witnesses tells what they are and in what relation they have to the anti-christ kingdom

Revelation 11

"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 12
"Woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of GOD, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days"
"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times and half a time"


VERSE 4. "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." DAR 499.3

"Evident allusion is here made to Zechariah 4:3-6, where it is explained that the two olive trees are taken to represent the word of God; and David testifies, “The entrance of thy words giveth light;” and, “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.” Written testimony is stronger than oral. Jesus declares of the Old Testament Scriptures, “They are they which testify of me.” In this dispensation, he says that his works bear witness of him. By what means do they bear witness of him? Ever since those disciples who were personally associated with him while on earth passed off the stage of life, his works have borne witness of him only through the medium of the New Testament, where alone we find them recorded. This gospel of the kingdom, it was once declared, shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations, etc. DAR 499.4 These declarations and considerations are sufficient to sustain the conclusion that the Old and New Testaments, one given in one dispensation, and the other in the other, are Christ’s two witnesses."-Two Witnesses Daniel and Revelation by Uriah Smith: Daniel and The Revelation

The 1260 Day (Year) Prophecy is given in a few different places and refers to the same event, which is the persecution of the saints by the anti-christ kingdom beginning when the little horn power plucked up 3 horns Daniel 7 which also shows when the kingdom of Iron feet and miry clay begins Daniel 2
 
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Broken Fence

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My interpretation is somewhat different. The scarlet woman rides the beast. We know she is drunk on the blood of the saints. This is a spiritual woman like the bride so we know she is spiritual. However we know the beast she rides will be destroyed in one day, and sits on seven hills. This beast fits no-one in history but Roman Catholic Church. We know that the first beast gives power to the second beast when the first beast falls.

And according to prophecy of the popes this is last one.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Hi, love your dedication and the time you took to post this Eschatology. I want to post with the right impression given, in that whatever I post please view it as a polite response, with no strife in it.

Ezekiel 4:6 "I have laid on you a day for each year" In my view and in the Eschatology understanding the denomination I am a part of, understands this applying to only time prophecies that are given in days. The 1,000 years referring to the enemy being chained is given in years so I and the denomination I belong to, won't apply the Ezekiel principle to it.


In my view, Revelation 17:8-11 refers to what Uriah Smith is saying

Daniel and Revelation by Uriah Smith

VERSE 8. "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition." DAR 659.1

Rome in Three Phases. — "The beast of which the angel here speaks is evidently the scarlet beast. A wild beast, like the one thus introduced, is the symbol of an oppressive and persecuting power; and while the Roman power as a nation had a long, uninterrupted existence, it passed through certain phases during which this symbol would be inapplicable to it, and during which time, consequently, the beast, in such prophecies as the present, might be said not to be, or not to exist. Thus Rome in its pagan form was a persecuting power in its relation to the people of God, during which time it constituted the beast that was; but the empire was nominally converted to Christianity; there was a transition from paganism to another phase of religion falsely called Christian; and during a brief period, while this transition was going on, it lost its ferocious and persecuting character, and then it could be said of the beast that it was not. Time passed on, and it degenerated into popery, and again assumed its bloodthirsty and oppressive character, and then it constituted the beast that “yet is,” or in John’s day was to be." DAR 659.2


The Seven Heads. — "The seven heads are explained to be, first, seven mountains, and then seven kings, or forms of government; for the expression in verse 10, “And there are seven kings,” should read, and these are seven kings. “Five are fallen,” says the angel, or passed away; “one is;” the sixth was then reigning; another was to come, and continue for a short space; and when the beast reappeared in its bloody and persecuting character, it was to be under the eighth form of government, which was to continue till the beast went into perdition. The seven forms of government that have existed in the Roman empire are usually enumerated as follows: (1) kingly; (2) consular; (3) decemvirate; (4) dictatorial; (5) triumvirate; (6) imperial; and (7) papal. Kings, consuls, decemvirs, dictators, and triumvirs had passed away in John’s day. He was living under the imperial form. Two more were to arise after his time. One was only to continue a short space, and hence is not usually reckoned among the heads; while the last, which is usually denominated the seventh, is in reality the eighth. The head which was to succeed the imperial, and continue a short space, could not be the papal; for that has continued longer than all the rest put together. We understand, therefore, that the papal head is the eighth, and that a head of short continuance intervened between the imperial and papal. In fulfillment of this, we read that after the imperial form had been abolished, there was a ruler who for about the space of sixty years governed Rome under the title of the “Exarch of Ravenna.” Thus we have the connecting link between the imperial and papal heads. The third phase of the beast that was, and is not, and yet is, is the Roman power under the rule of the papacy; and in this form it ascends out of the bottomless pit, or bases its power on pretensions which have no foundation but a mixture of Christian errors and pagan superstitions." DAR 659.3


Sincerely,
Cordell

Hey Cordell,

I do love threads without strife, but I have yet to encounter one on any forum when so-called Christians disagree. Let’s hope and pray for the best in our encounter.

To begin, I saw fallacy with Smith’s version long ago. First, there is a 7th head that “is reckoned” and cannot be rendered as the eighth.

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. (Revelation 17:9-11)​

It is clearly stated that the scarlet beast is the 8th head and that it “was” from the perspective of the reign of the 6th head; the 6th head "is". This establishes that the 8th head has to be one of the five that are fallen and cannot be the 6th or the 7th. The declaration that it “is of the seven” is part of the enigma to determine wisdom, but does not support that the 8th head is the 6th or the 7th, or that there is actually no 7th head.

Second, there is no scriptural support for the rendition that the heads represent different phases of the fourth kingdom Daniel. In scripture, mountains are used to represent kingdoms but I find nowhere that they are used as phases of a kingdom. Furthermore, the body parts of the heads are clearly conveyed in Revelation 13.

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. Revelation 13:1-2​

The lion, bear, and leopard are kingdoms in Daniel and through John, God coveys where the seven heads commence as kingdoms/mountains: Babylon, which makes the 5th head the papacy and “explained well” as the head that is wounded in Revelation 13:3, and in chapter 17 as the head that, “was, and is not,” and is the eighth. As Adventist Frank W. Hardy, Ph.D., wrote, “we should seek out facts of language that can be explained well by one model and only poorly by another.” (Frank W. Hardy, Ph.D., “Historicism and the Judgment A Study of Revelation 4-5 and 19a,” Historicism.org, (August 8, 2006, Modified April 15, 2010), 1.) Smith’s rendition is a poor explanation of the heads when considering the aforesaid.

Smith's rendition is also a poor explanation because it conflicts with the fifth seal, which substantiates that the judgment of those who persecute God’s people cannot occur until the fate of the saints is determined, which is the object of the antitypical autumnal festivals in the seventh month and that judgment begins at the house of God. In support, the context of Revelation 17 is the plagues, the third angel’s message and the destruction of Babylon in chapters 14, 15, 16, and 18, and further substantiated by the angel with the final plagues in 17:1 that introduces to the judgment of the woman who is drunk with the blood of the saints. Clearly, Revelation 17 is the antitypical Day of the Lord as Adventist George McCready Price held, which is maintained by the evidence in 13:1-2, above, that the heads commence with Babylon. And when the evidence that Babylon is the first head is grasped (which makes the 5th head the papacy) and taken to its logical conclusion, it is “easily explained” that the 6th head is the two-horned beast and the 7th the image made in Revelation 13. All heads, mountains, and kings are "explained well" and account for all the beasts in Revelation and Daniel.

Yours in Christ
Jerry
 
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Hey Cordell,

I do love threads without strife, but I have yet to encounter one on any forum when so-called Christians disagree. Let’s hope and pray for the best in our encounter.

To begin, I saw fallacy with Smith’s version long ago. First, there is a 7th head that “is reckoned” and cannot be rendered as the eighth.

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. (Revelation 17:9-11)​

It is clearly stated that the scarlet beast is the 8th head and that it “was” from the perspective of the reign of the 6th head; the 6th head "is". This establishes that the 8th head has to be one of the five that are fallen and cannot be the 6th or the 7th. The declaration that it “is of the seven” is part of the enigma to determine wisdom, but does not support that the 8th head is the 6th or the 7th, or that there is actually no 7th head.

Second, there is no scriptural support for the rendition that the heads represent different phases of the fourth kingdom Daniel. In scripture, mountains are used to represent kingdoms but I find nowhere that they are used as phases of a kingdom. Furthermore, the body parts of the heads are clearly conveyed in Revelation 13.

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. Revelation 13:1-2​

The lion, bear, and leopard are kingdoms in Daniel and through John, God coveys where the seven heads commence as kingdoms/mountains: Babylon, which makes the 5th head the papacy and “explained well” as the head that is wounded in Revelation 13:3, and in chapter 17 as the head that, “was, and is not,” and is the eighth. As Adventist Frank W. Hardy, Ph.D., wrote, “we should seek out facts of language that can be explained well by one model and only poorly by another.” (Frank W. Hardy, Ph.D., “Historicism and the Judgment A Study of Revelation 4-5 and 19a,” Historicism.org, (August 8, 2006, Modified April 15, 2010), 1.) Smith’s rendition is a poor explanation of the heads when considering the aforesaid.

Smith's rendition is also a poor explanation because it conflicts with the fifth seal, which substantiates that the judgment of those who persecute God’s people cannot occur until the fate of the saints is determined, which is the object of the antitypical autumnal festivals in the seventh month and that judgment begins at the house of God. In support, the context of Revelation 17 is the plagues, the third angel’s message and the destruction of Babylon in chapters 14, 15, 16, and 18, and further substantiated by the angel with the final plagues in 17:1 that introduces to the judgment of the woman who is drunk with the blood of the saints. Clearly, Revelation 17 is the antitypical Day of the Lord as Adventist George McCready Price held, which is maintained by the evidence in 13:1-2, above, that the heads commence with Babylon. And when the evidence that Babylon is the first head is grasped (which makes the 5th head the papacy) and taken to its logical conclusion, it is “easily explained” that the 6th head is the two-horned beast and the 7th the image made in Revelation 13. All heads, mountains, and kings are "explained well" and account for all the beasts in Revelation and Daniel.

Yours in Christ
Jerry

Brother, I will like this clarification, what do you believe the 8 kings are?
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Brother, I will like this clarification, what do you believe the 8 heads are?
Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, the Papacy, America and it's image to the beast to follow before the Papacy comes back to its full power.
 
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Cordell

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Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, the Papacy, America and it's image to the beast to follow before the Papacy comes back to its full power.

Ah, well we clearly have different views on the 8 kings and thus different views on when the plagues fall etc. Now I understand why you believed differently about the persecution it is because we differ on the initiation of events because of our different beliefs on certain symbols, particularly the 8 kings. If this thread is still up I would post the historicist view I believe to the best of my knowledge by GOD's grace, in the near future.

Peace Sincerely,
Cordell
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Ah, well we clearly have different views on the 8 kings and thus different views on when the plagues fall etc. Now I understand why you believed differently about the persecution it is because we differ on the initiation of events because of our different beliefs on certain symbols, particularly the 8 kings. If this thread is still up I would post the historicist view I believe to the best of my knowledge by GOD's grace, in the near future.

Peace Sincerely,
Cordell

Let me clarify that my view is the historicist's view, albeit the progressive view as opposed to the traditional, which is where you are coming from. Elliott, a traditionalist, held "all" but the last plague was poured out at the French Revolution, while a shift to the progressive view by Adventism corrected his misrepresentation and reinterpreted the plagues as future, during the time of the last trumpet and the wrath of God in Revelation 11. The church is not subject to the wrath of God and the plagues are the wrath of God, so the progressive view trumps the traditionalists'. Many of the traditionalists' views are untenable and even the Adventists have abandoned Smith's view of the eight heads. In the 1980 Adventist's Commentary, they reinterpreted the "five that are fallen" as either commencing with Egypt and Assyria or Babylon; the latter being my view. As I stated, only the view that the heads commence with Babylon maintains the context of the Day of the Lord in Revelation 17, which trumps the view the heads commence with Egypt. And as I stated, the fifth seal substantiates that the judgement on those who persecute the saints does not commence until the fate of the saints in determined, and the antitype of the autumnal festivals determines the fate of the saints, which trumps the notion that the trumpets commence prior to the time of the Day of the Lord.
 
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