The Lake Of Fire

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ClementofA

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And again! I have repeatedly told you aionios can be a limited duration if modifed.


That's your bare naked opinion. I gave my opinion fully clothed, i.e. with evidence. Who is a judge going to believe has been caught with their pants down. You or me.

All the examples you gave on your other site are passages that describe limited durations!

Considering that you've admitted that yet have provided no proof of even a single instance of aionion in all of ancient Koine Greek, whether in or outside of Scripture, ever meaning "eternal", the weight of evidence thus far is obviously very weighty against your bare naked opinion.

It is you and your other fellows that have decided that aionios also must be of limited duration in the lake of fire and can only mean eternal when referring to heaven!

I have stated no such position. Furthermore there are multiple views of the meaning of aionion, not only by universalists but also by lexicons, scholars & Christians of various views not called universalism. Moreover, since you provided no scripture references, what verses you are referring to, if they even exist, is unknown.

YOu stand in stark opposition to th evast super majority of the greek speaking world and greek translating world!

1) Perhaps that has to do with it (a) being the last days, or (b) Satan being god of this wicked world, or (c) endless hell biased translators parroting one another for filthy lucre or reputation or to not lose their job or to line up with denominational creeds, or (d) that words often change their meaning in 1500+ years, or (e) that's built upon many centuries of the endlesss torturing dogma of the "church" of "holy crusades", Inquisitors torturing "heretics" to make them recant, burning those of dissenting theologies at the stake, & much more bad fruit identifying such.

2) At what time of history? In the early church?:

In the early church universalism was the orthodox (biblical) view & may have been the orthodox (majority) view for centuries (see urls below) prior to the dark ages of ignorance, illiteracy, lack of education & bibles for the common man It may also be today, or be on the way to becoming so, in this more enlightened "internet age", the majority Christian view (see urls below):

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley


And like a Russellite or Mormon you have believed the originator of this fallacy that there is some vast super conspiracy that has blinded the 99+% of the believing world into thinking that aionios when it comes to punishment means eternal !

Really, 99%? Have there been surveys taken i'm not aware of? An outspoken against universalism "father" of the Eastern Orthodox church recently wrote that there are "many" universalists within his denomination. Even recent Popes of the RCC have held out hope for universalism. That has been called "hopeful universalism". I wonder how many Catholics, which is the largest denomination & followed by the 2nd largest denomination, the aforementioned EOC, are universalists or "hopeful universalists".

It seems you are more interested in majority opinions than truth. See the urls above. The scribes & Phaisees, the scholars of Jesus' mortal day (c. 30 AD), were often opposed to the Truth. How about the scholars during the dark ages? Would you have blindly followed them also. Didn't Jesus say something about the blind leading the blind. If most believe the earth is the center of the universe & the sun revolves around it, would you blindly accept that also without evidence but blind faith in some scholarly popes? Who is your pope?


Sorry, still waiting for a verse that shows there is repentance in the lake of fire!

In the absence of any saying "there is no repentance there but endless sadistic tortures by a God who is supposed to be Love Omnipotent", the burden of proof lies totally with you to prove that the Father of all created beings is such a being. Universalists here and all over the internet & in dozens of books available on Amazon, etc, have provided plenty of scriptural evidence to the contrary.


If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?


**************************************************



Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
 
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martymonster

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Mat 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be
more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Sackcloth and ashes? What reduces things to ash? What is the symbolism being used here?
More tolerable for Sodom in the day of judgement? I thought Sodom suffered the vengeance of eternal fire? I thought there was a one size fits all punishment?

How some reads the bible and thinks God is going to burn people in hell for all time, is a complete mystery to me. It's abstract foolishness!
 
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FineLinen

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And no I do not limit the Holy One of Israel! He limited HImself when He declared His etwrnal judgments both good and bad. You have trashed His holiness and Word as written by your promotion of false doctrine!

The judgments of the Lord are unto life. Every one of them are flowing from the Father of all fathers. His Name is Abba, dearest Daddy. All His judgments are good!

The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases!
 
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ClementofA

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Well I wonder wehy He did not use aiodios to describe life in heaven if it is a superior word? Maybe you should instruct God on His poor choices!

What would be the point or need when the saints endless life is already revealed by multiple words & expressions such as "immortality" (1 Cor.15) "can no longer die" (Lk.20:36), etc.

Isa.25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Mk.12:25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Lk.20:35 But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage.
36 In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

Acts 3:21 Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets.

Rom.8:17 and if children, also heirs: heirs indeed of God, and joint-heirs of Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified together.

Rom.8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

1 Cor.9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive...
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death…28 Now when all shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all to Him, so that God may be all in all.

1 Cor.15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable.

1 Cor.15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

1 Cor.15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Heb.13:14 For here we are not having a permanent city, but we are seeking for the one which is impending."

1 Pet.1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in the heavens for you,

1 Pet.5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

Rev.2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death.

Rev.3:5 Like them, the one who is victorious will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.

Rev.3:12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

Rev.21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Consider the following opinion:

"The Greek language has a number of terms to express endlessness, all of which are "stronger" than aioon, for it never expresses endlessness. Five distinct "eternities" are clearly marked in the Scriptures. How can any one of them be endless? This present eon is about to end with Christ's advent. That will usher in the coming eon, which will not last much longer than a thousand years. The rendering "forever and ever" ought to show even a sober English reader that "forever" cannot be endless. The words akataluton, indissoluble (Heb.7:16), aperanton, interminable (1 Tim.1:4), involve endlessness, as do aphtharton, incorruptible, and athanasia, immortality. In each case Greek uses the negative to express endlessness. The strongest expression is ouk telos, no consummation (Luke 1:33). Here again Scripture is made subject to tradition, and man's word replaces God's."

Aidios is used exactly twice! Once to describe Gods Powers and the other to describe the chains of darkness binding the angels who fell in Genesis 6.

If the angels are going to be restored as the fallacious hypothesis you and others hold to- why does God need to have eternal chains of darkness binding them?

Universalism has nothing to say about fallen angels, hence irrelevant.

There's no "eternal chains of darkness" in Jude 1:6. "Eternal chains", i think, probably relates to the "eternal power" of God occuring in Rom.1:20. So Love Omnipotent's endless power is holding these beings prisoner until the day of judgement. What happens to them then & thereafter as regards their final destiny is not revealed by Jude 1:6:

And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness - until - the judgment of the great day—(Jude 1:6).

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb to/into the eons of the eons.


__________________________________________


Do you think the teaching of universalism will keep any of the elect from being saved from the lake of fire? If so, why, for Scripture says:

Jer.29:13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God, or I speak from Myself. (Jn.7:17).

So are you wasting your time here opposing universalism? Shouldn't you instead be sharing the gospel with the unsaved to save them from being tortured in fire forever by your God? Yet here you are chatting away the day with Christians.
 
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Der Alte

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Mat 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Sackcloth and ashes? What reduces things to ash? What is the symbolism being used here?
More tolerable for Sodom in the day of judgement? I thought Sodom suffered the vengeance of eternal fire? I thought there was a one size fits all punishment?
How some reads the bible and thinks God is going to burn people in hell for all time, is a complete mystery to me. It's abstract foolishness!
"more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee." sounds like a punishment worse than death.
Thinking "God is going to burn people in hell for all time" should not be a mystery according to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים
/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Yudaion/Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, translated as hades and gehenna in the LXX and NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?


 
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nolidad

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Strong evidence? Luke 16? Nah.

Well there is a gulf so that the lost cannot cross over to the saved! that is the only direct verse!

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

And yet this "son" couldn't cross over and Abraham reminded him that in HIs life he had good things and now in the next life he has none. It does nothing to support your case!

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

And it doesn't say the gulf will ever be removed so people can cross over! But elsewhere we see Jesus saying unbelievers shall not see life (not not see until, but shall not) and in REv. people have no rest day or night forever and ever! You have yet to give a positive scripture supporting th elost can repent and escape either the place of torments (hell) or the lake of fire.

"So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

And all this philosophical mumbo jumbo does nothing. WE know that a snow drift will eventually disappear so we know it is temproary. NOthing in SCripture says torment is temporary! We are talking the bible and not a philosophers scorekeeping!

In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.

Coorect for once! It is just a temporary holding bin for teh lost until they are cast into the lake of fire!

Now show a verse that says one in the lake can repent and be removed!

"As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."

Noice sweet emotional words utterd by Elhanan Winchester. But not supported by SCripture and based on his suppositions and personal biases and predisposed doctrinal instruction. Jesus did preach to the dead. And it is just as likely that the dead he preached to were the righteous dead telling them that the blood was shed and there time in paradise was ending soon! We simply do not know what He preached and to make conclusions is the height of spiritual arrogance!

Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

So you believe God shall save even the viruses and bacterias that wreak havoc on earth? they are part of that all flesh!
 
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nolidad

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Huh? How does that address or refute anything i posted:

Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

So you do not understand that there is no other salvation than Jesus? He is the foundation and there is no other foundation that can save one!

Then it shifts to building upon the foundation of Jesus! Only the saved can build on the foundation of Jesus! The unsaved- all their works are wood hay and stubble because they are not done in faith! And also it isimpossible to please God in the flesh!

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Whereas silver represents the redemption of Christ & those of silver are those who have faith in it, wood, hay & stubble have no silver in them, hence such have no faith.

Wrong wrong wrong Gold silver and precious stones are a full thought, you cannot pull one out and then make up what you think it means. These are acts that precious while wood hay and stubble are works not precious. If you take in the rest of SCripture concerning a believers works, you would or should know that it means the works Jesus foreordained an individual should walk in.
 
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nolidad

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What would be the point or need when the saints endless life is already revealed by multiple words & expressions such as "immortality" (1 Cor.15) "can no longer die" (Lk.20:36), etc.

Maybe you should look up immortality in the original and you won't be so benighted!

"The Greek language has a number of terms to express endlessness, all of which are "stronger" than aioon, for it never expresses endlessness. Five distinct "eternities" are clearly marked in the Scriptures. How can any one of them be endless? This present eon is about to end with Christ's advent. That will usher in the coming eon, which will not last much longer than a thousand years. The rendering "forever and ever" ought to show even a sober English reader that "forever" cannot be endless. The words akataluton, indissoluble (Heb.7:16), aperanton, interminable (1 Tim.1:4), involve endlessness, as do aphtharton, incorruptible, and athanasia, immortality. In each case Greek uses the negative to express endlessness. The strongest expression is ouk telos, no consummation (Luke 1:33). Here again Scripture is made subject to tradition, and man's word replaces God's."

And yet when one looks up eternal in greek they find the word aionios! And the words you posted here are more qualities found in an aionios life! Like incorruption. As for Athanasia- it is only used of God the Father! so are you saying no one else has undying life? Once again it is never used of men. aionios was fully understood by the average greek speaker of the immortal life they would recive!

Still waiting for one clear verse that shows the lost can repent in the lake of fire!.

And yet I have a verse which bodes badly for your "repentance after death".

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Please don't parse it in Greek- you will have a bad day! For it isthe aorist present imperative- a command of God! and still is "eti" which means to remain in the state one was in!
 
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nolidad

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Jesus could have said it was a "life sentence." But instead he said they will be there "until" the condition is met. Considering He didn't use the language which you opine, when He easily could have done so, i'd say He doesn't support your doctrine. In fact His language implies He doesn't:

Well as you are a careless student of teh Word and grammar- let me enlighten you . Historically when one was incarcerated for things like theft- they could not work off their debt! So even though Jesus used "until" , every one knew that the criminal was serving a life sentence!

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Tom Talbot needs to read the Scriptures! First the lost have no free will towards God and second the NT is loaded with verses that show the wicked will continue worse and worse! Nice sentiments he throws out, but they have no basis in biblical reality!
 
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martymonster

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Well there is a gulf so that the lost cannot cross over to the saved! that is the only direct verse!



And yet this "son" couldn't cross over and Abraham reminded him that in HIs life he had good things and now in the next life he has none. It does nothing to support your case!



And it doesn't say the gulf will ever be removed so people can cross over! But elsewhere we see Jesus saying unbelievers shall not see life (not not see until, but shall not) and in REv. people have no rest day or night forever and ever! You have yet to give a positive scripture supporting th elost can repent and escape either the place of torments (hell) or the lake of fire.



And all this philosophical mumbo jumbo does nothing. WE know that a snow drift will eventually disappear so we know it is temproary. NOthing in SCripture says torment is temporary! We are talking the bible and not a philosophers scorekeeping!



Coorect for once! It is just a temporary holding bin for teh lost until they are cast into the lake of fire!

Now show a verse that says one in the lake can repent and be removed!



Noice sweet emotional words utterd by Elhanan Winchester. But not supported by SCripture and based on his suppositions and personal biases and predisposed doctrinal instruction. Jesus did preach to the dead. And it is just as likely that the dead he preached to were the righteous dead telling them that the blood was shed and there time in paradise was ending soon! We simply do not know what He preached and to make conclusions is the height of spiritual arrogance!



So you believe God shall save even the viruses and bacterias that wreak havoc on earth? they are part of that all flesh!

Lazarus and the Rich man is a parable. If the gulf is literal, then so is Abraham's bosom.
 
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The judgments of the Lord are unto life. Every one of them are flowing from the Father of all fathers. His Name is Abba, dearest Daddy. All His judgments are good!

The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases!

Maybe I should wait until you are more knowledgable of the Bible to answer again. YOu are listening to too many opinions on the Bible and not listening to Gods Word itself.

Yes Gods love never ceases, but only for those who are HIs. Remember Matt. 7 Many people have no relationship with God and will be cast away into aionios kolasis.
 
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nolidad

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Lazarus and the Rich man is a parable. If the gulf is literal, then so is Abraham's bosom.

No it isn't. Nothing in the account gives rise to believe it is a parable. Jesus is also mentioning directly things Jewish people were very familiar with. Abrahams bosom/Paradise and the place of torments/hell/sheol/hades.

The gulf was literal and so wasn't Abrahams bosom. That was where the righteous dead went in the OT until Jesus ascended. He had yet to shed His blood so they could not gain access to heaven until Jesus poured out His blood on the mercy seat of heaven. Then when He ascended He took all thesouls in Abrahams bosom with Him to heaven as declared in Ephesians 4. That is one of the reasons why Paul said in Corinthians that now when one leaves the body, they are present with the Lord!
 
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ClementofA

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And it doesn't say the gulf will ever be removed so people can cross over! But elsewhere we see Jesus saying unbelievers shall not see life (not not see until, but shall not) and in REv. people have no rest day or night forever and ever!


More accurate, literal & honest translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?


Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4

Aeon - Wikipedia

AIN -- AINIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?
 
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ClementofA

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So you do not understand that there is no other salvation than Jesus?

Huh?


He is the foundation and there is no other foundation that can save one!

Obviously.

Then it shifts to building upon the foundation of Jesus! Only the saved can build on the foundation of Jesus!

You think?

The unsaved- all their works are wood hay and stubble because they are not done in faith!

Like here:

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

Yet saved here:

15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Wrong wrong wrong Gold silver and precious stones are a full thought, you cannot pull one out and then make up what you think it means. These are acts that precious while wood hay and stubble are works not precious. If you take in the rest of SCripture concerning a believers works, you would or should know that it means the works Jesus foreordained an individual should walk in.

Silver = Christ's redemption

Gold = the Divine Nature of the Father?

Precious Stones = the Spirit's transforming work?


____________________________________________________



Do you think the teaching of universalism will keep any of the elect from being saved from the lake of fire? If so, why, for Scripture says:

Jer.29:13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God, or I speak from Myself. (Jn.7:17).

So are you wasting your time here opposing universalism? Shouldn't you instead be sharing the gospel with the unsaved to save them from being tortured in fire forever by your God? Yet here you are chatting away the day with Christians.


_________________________________________________


Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."


If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
 
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ClementofA

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And yet I have a verse which bodes badly for your "repentance after death".

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

What's the problem?

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Be filthy...still...but not forever.


"The meaning is, Let men continue in these various characters, if they will. I come quickly with the rewards that they will respectively deserve. A similar mode of expression is adopted in Ecclesiastes 11:9."

Revelation 22:11 -

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

While we're on the subject, here's a few cross references which show similarities to Rev.22:11:

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Hosea 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
Mt.15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says.' Whoever will listen let him listen, and whoever will refuse let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.
Rev.22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And the one hearing, let him say, “Come!” And the one thirsting let him come; the one desiring, let him take freely the water of life.

Is there the slightest hint of endless punishment in any of those verses or Rev.22:11? No.

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

And, now, for another commentary on Revelation 22:11:

"Is it possible that it means: “ready or not, here i come to bring judgement, whatever state I find you in?” Maybe I am stretching here, I fear."

"I am quite sure that the subsequent warning/promise means this (i.e. the common promise of YHWH, this time as Jesus, coming to reward and/or punish those according to their works.) So I have no problem with this preceding verse also having that meaning (or at least topically connecting to that meaning) as well."

Filthy Still??

And for yet another interpretation:

I expressed my opinion that this verse is supposed to be an indication of intransigence and perseverence in the final days of the tribulation. It is notably sandwiched between two very strong indications that those who remain “filthy” will not only keep being exhorted to come in, but that (as with the kings of the earth) they will actually do so.

I expect the statement is meant as a rhetorical counter-comparison, not as a command. You all go on being like that. But we will go on being like this; and here is what that means:
yes, there is punishment on the way, but we will never give up on loving you and encouraging you to wash and come home.

I would be more worried about it, if it wasn’t only smack between two examples of continuing and successful evangelism, but also wasn’t clarified by a massive amount of scriptural data otherwise.

It would seem that an annihilationist would have to construe part or all of this chapter to mean it takes place in the present day (for which there is some indication, since after
all evangelism is a present-day activity at least. :wink: ) The filthy can hardly go on being unjust after the lake of fire judgment if they are annihilated out of existence after
all! Fortunately, it is not my problem to try to explain how this verse must occur within continuity of at least one or maybe two calls to hopeful present-day evangelism while also
appearing to contravene any hope of that evangelism being successful flatly in the face of the surrounding data.

I expect a Calvinist would point to this as being the distinction between the elect and the non-elect, the latter of whom God never intended to save and so who are confirmed in their
sins forever by God, rendering the question of annihilation moot. But it seems an awful jump to have “the filthy” bluntly condemned in hopelessness in comparison with the “righteous”
who keep on being righteous; and then to have to explain why shortly afterward the Spirit and the Bride and the one who hears them (i.e. the righteous who are busy being righteous,
unlike the ones who are still loving and fondling their sinning) are exhorting with Jesus for the “filthy” to slake their thirst and wash their robes in the river of the water of life
coming out of the New Jerusalem, so that the “filthy” can obtain permission to enter and eat of the tree of life. Again, fortunately, not my problem. :smiley:

It is a tough verse to read with the context in any case. Which to me signals that the meaning is probably not supposed to be straightforward, but rather some kind of figure of speech; thus my opinion about it being a counter-point comparison, introducing the distinction that soon follows afterward. (Which is literally the final specific revelation of the book.) [/
quote]

Filthy Still??

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Lazarus and the Rich man is a parable. If the gulf is literal, then so is Abraham's bosom.
"In the bosom of Abraham" is literal if one understands Jewish idioms. In that time people did not sit in chairs at a table when eating they reclined at a low table on their left elbow with their feet extended away from the table. The position of honor at a dinner was to the right or front of the host which was referred to as "in the bosom."
If a person "in the bosom" of the host wanted to speak to the host he would lean back and place his head on or almost on the chest, bosom, of the host. John 13:23
This explains how the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears. Luke 7:38
A woman did not crawl around under a table at the feet of men she did not know.
 
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Maybe I should wait until you are more knowledgable of the Bible to answer again. YOu are listening to too many opinions on the Bible and not listening to Gods Word itself.

Yes Gods love never ceases, but only for those who are HIs. Remember Matt. 7 Many people have no relationship with God and will be cast away into aionios kolasis.

The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases.

Do you see that little thingy? It is called a period!
 
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martymonster

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No it isn't. Nothing in the account gives rise to believe it is a parable. Jesus is also mentioning directly things Jewish people were very familiar with. Abrahams bosom/Paradise and the place of torments/hell/sheol/hades.

The gulf was literal and so wasn't Abrahams bosom. That was where the righteous dead went in the OT until Jesus ascended. He had yet to shed His blood so they could not gain access to heaven until Jesus poured out His blood on the mercy seat of heaven. Then when He ascended He took all thesouls in Abrahams bosom with Him to heaven as declared in Ephesians 4. That is one of the reasons why Paul said in Corinthians that now when one leaves the body, they are present with the Lord!


Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them,
Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

The dead are dead. The scriptures are very clear on this.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
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