20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

DavidPT · Jun 2, 2020

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison(phulake), that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Wonder when Amils think this is meaning? While satan himself is also in prison, as in during the thousand years? That's somewhat funny when you think about it. That satan, while he is in prison himself at the time, assuming Amils think Revelation 2:10 is meaning during the thousand years, he is then going to cast others into a prison.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison(phulake)

As can be seen in this verse, satan has been in prison during the thousand years.

Most Amils claim that satan was initially bound at the cross. After the cross Jesus then ascended to heaven where He still currently is. Obviously then, in Revelation 2:10 Jesus is referring to a time post the cross and after His ascension, therefore clearly placing these events during satan's time in the pit, assuming Amil.

Now that I have reasoned through this I no longer need to wonder if Amils think Revelation 2:10 is during a time when satan is in a prison himself, I know they do.

What is the title of this thread again? Now I remember---17 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

But there are no major reasons to reject the Amil doctrine though, right? lol

DavidPT · Jun 2, 2020

Earlier tonight when I was doing some Googling, the following link showed up in one of the search results. I then went to this link and started reading it and couldn't stop reading it. This article is that good. I have read the article in it's entirety though it is a bit lengthy. But the article is so well written and so well reasoned, it was not fatiguing to read through all of it. This article is a must read, IMO.

Progression Versus Recapitulation in Revelation 20:1-6: Some Overlooked Arguments | Bible.org

BABerean2 · Jun 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
Earlier tonight when I was doing some Googling, the following link showed up in one of the search results. I then went to this link and started reading it and couldn't stop reading it. This article is that good. I have read the article in it's entirety though it is a bit lengthy. But the article is so well written and so well reasoned, it was not fatiguing to read through all of it. This article is a must read, IMO.

Progression Versus Recapitulation in Revelation 20:1-6: Some Overlooked Arguments | Bible.org

From your article...

"The postconsummationist/progressive/premillennial viewpoint4 argues: (1) The binding of Satan is yet future. It will take place when Christ returns. (2) The 1,000 years is a literal period during which Christ will reign on earth from Jerusalem, with His people. (3) The loosing of Satan will bring the Millennium to its climax, followed by the resurrection and judgment of the wicked at the Great White Throne. (4) The new heavens and new earth will be created after the Millennium, i.e., 1,000 years after Christ’s Second Coming.5"

(1)
Mar_5:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

(Do real chains bind demonic spirits? Has god already bound wicked angels in some kind of chains?)

(2)
Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

(Why did Jesus correct the woman when she said earthly Jerusalem was the place to worship?)

(3)
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

(Why is the time of the judgment of the dead right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and when is the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20?)

(4)
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

(When does the fire come above, and when does the fire come in Revelation 20?)

.

sovereigngrace · Jun 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison(phulake), that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Wonder when Amils think this is meaning? While satan himself is also in prison, as in during the thousand years? That's somewhat funny when you think about it. That satan, while he is in prison himself at the time, assuming Amils think Revelation 2:10 is meaning during the thousand years, he is then going to cast others into a prison.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison(phulake)

As can be seen in this verse, satan has been in prison during the thousand years.

Most Amils claim that satan was initially bound at the cross. After the cross Jesus then ascended to heaven where He still currently is. Obviously then, in Revelation 2:10 Jesus is referring to a time post the cross and after His ascension, therefore clearly placing these events during satan's time in the pit, assuming Amil.

Now that I have reasoned through this I no longer need to wonder if Amils think Revelation 2:10 is during a time when satan is in a prison himself, I know they do.

What is the title of this thread again? Now I remember---17 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

But there are no major reasons to reject the Amil doctrine though, right? lol

Satan is a spiritual being. We are therefore looking in Revelation 20 at spiritual chains and a spiritual prison. The abyss is a spiritual condition. A physical chain and a physical prison will not cut it. The restraint upon him is spiritual. He is like a dog on a chain. A chain does not prevent movement, it limits movement.

We all know there are many crimes committed within the confines of a prison. Murders, rapes, drug abuse are all common within the prisons of this world. That doesn’t dilute the fact that the prisoner still remains imprisoned. In the case of Satan's prison, he too commits many crimes within his prison walls, but that does not negate the fact he is under 24 hr surveillance and is under definite and continual restraint since the cross. The chains are more effective than earthly metal ones, they are spiritual chains designed to slow him down and restrict his movement. The spiritual chains of the wicked clearly don't stop them operating within their dark prison-cell.

Yes, prisoners can roam about, but it is relative freedom. It is limited.

They are restricted in their movement, timing and influence and limited in the evil they can do. That is the way the kingdom of darkness is today. Satan is spiritually limited in the evil he can do.

Satan and his demons operate within that prison since the cross, and cannot step outside of its perimeters until just before Christ's Coming when that demonic restraint is taken off by divine decree.

A prisoner will continue to do whatever evil he can get away with, including rape, murder and embezzlement behind bars.

Is a Prison Governor devoid of authority and power just because he has a prison full of inmates that hate him, reject his position and dislike his discipline? I don't think so! There may even be gangs inside the penitentiary that continue to perpetrate their wickedness and rebellion, but they do it within very definite boundaries and are severely restricted.

sovereigngrace · Jun 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
As to what you have quoted by me. The way I said it does make it sound worse than what I was intending it to mean. I was not indending it to be sarcastic, but I can now see where some might take it that way. The point I was trying to make, these past Commentators were never aware of an argument like mine at the time, obviously. Therefore their past opinions are moot unless some of them are posting in this thread, then showing how they are right and that I am incorrect.

Obviously, they can't be in this thread posting if they are all long dead and gone. But if some of them weren't already long dead and gone, but was participating in this thread instead, who's to say, maybe one of them might at least admit, thus be intellectually honest, something one rarely sees these days, that maybe my arguments actually do have some logic to them after all, regardless that they are arriving at a diffent conclusion concerning 2 Peter 3:8.

What my arguments at least prove in the post of mine you are addressing, if the thousand years can mean a literal thousand years in 2 Peter 3:8, it can certainly mean they mean a literal thousand years in Revelation 20 as well. And we all know what that means if the thousand years can be a literal thousand years. We can say goodbye to Amil for forever since Amil cannot work if a literal thousand years are meant in Revelation 20.

You are totally missing the point. Every subject one looks at, every angle one analyzes, every Scripture we dissect, Premil does not fit.

2 Peter 3 forbids it. It is totally climactic. There is no suggestion of some supposed millennium following Christ's appearing as a thief in the night. No, just wholesale destruction. You have yet to concede that. What follows this destruction is the NHNE, not a millennium. Check the text!

I asked you questions re the biblical use of "a thousand" which you have yet to answer. These texts prove that "a thousand" and "a thousand years" is repeatedly used in clear and plain Scripture to describe a large indefinite amount or a large indefinite period of time. I asked you "how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?" You failed to address this. This carries the same figurative sense - only describing a small period of time. Most Premils have no difficulty with this, because it does not interfere with Premil. This is double standards. This is common with nearly every topic you address with Premils.

I showed you how Revelation 12 correlates with Revelation 20, taking us back the First Advent and showing us the defeat of Satan's kingdom. While it addresses a different aspect of Christ victorious work it does not negate its importance in the subjugation of the enemy. What resulted is clear, as in Revelation 20, now has salvation come to the darkened world. It also tells us that during this NT era Satan cannot stop, curtail or defeat the Church of Jesus Christ. The Gospel was released to the Gentiles and the Church was anointed at Pentecost in order to invade his territory, and enlighten the previously blinded Gentiles. This has been happening for this past 2000 years.

Also, Revelation 20 takes us back to the one-and-only "first resurrection. There is NOT two 'first resurrections', no more that 2 future resurrections and judgments as Premil suggests. I have shown clear corroboration to prove that Christ is the "first resurrection. Premil has no corroboration. Again, you sidestep that. This is common when engaging with Premils.

As BABerean highlighted, Amil is not limited to one Scripture in the most symbolic book in the Bible, and the most debated chapter in Scripture. It interprets Revelation 20 by the rest of Scripture, not the other way around as Premil does. The fact is: wherever you look, the second coming is climactic. That is why many of us have abandoned Premil. We got tired of fighting with Scripture.

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4. He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13 & Matt 28:19-20).

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corrupt occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

Charles Powell (Progression Versus Recapitulation in Revelation 20:1-6: Some Overlooked Arguments) has no answer for all this, because it forbids Premil.

DavidPT · Jun 2, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Satan is a spiritual being. We are therefore looking in Revelation 20 at spiritual chains and a spiritual prison. The abyss is a spiritual condition. A physical chain and a physical prison will not cut it. The restraint upon him is spiritual. He is like a dog on a chain. A chain does not prevent movement, it limits movement.

We all know there are many crimes committed within the confines of a prison. Murders, rapes, drug abuse are all common within the prisons of this world. That doesn’t dilute the fact that the prisoner still remains imprisoned. In the case of Satan's prison, he too commits many crimes within his prison walls, but that does not negate the fact he is under 24 hr surveillance and is under definite and continual restraint since the cross. The chains are more effective than earthly metal ones, they are spiritual chains designed to slow him down and restrict his movement. The spiritual chains of the wicked clearly don't stop them operating within their dark prison-cell.

Yes, prisoners can roam about, but it is relative freedom. It is limited.

They are restricted in their movement, timing and influence and limited in the evil they can do. That is the way the kingdom of darkness is today. Satan is spiritually limited in the evil he can do.

Satan and his demons operate within that prison since the cross, and cannot step outside of its perimeters until just before Christ's Coming when that demonic restraint is taken off by divine decree.

A prisoner will continue to do whatever evil he can get away with, including rape, murder and embezzlement behind bars.

Is a Prison Governor devoid of authority and power just because he has a prison full of inmates that hate him, reject his position and dislike his discipline? I don't think so! There may even be gangs inside the penitentiary that continue to perpetrate their wickedness and rebellion, but they do it within very definite boundaries and are severely restricted.

None of that matters. The first mistake you are making, the imagery depicts satan locked up in a prison in solitary confinement, not locked up in a prison and free to roam and mingle with other prisoners inside of this same prison. What matters is, the imagery and what it is depicting, and that the imagery has to make logical sense.

In a real world example, if we compare the following, it is not making logical sense. Someone is thrown into prison into solitary confinement. And while this person is in prison in solitary confinement, this same person then casts others into another prison. Total nonsense. Nothing like that could happen in the real world.

Let's now compare that to the imagery involving satan.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him(this imagery depicting being cast into a prison then being in solitary confinement while in there).

behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison(assuming Amil, this imagery depicting this same devil that is in solitary confinement, doing this while he himself is also in a prison at the time).

Amil appears to involve one contradiction after another. If Amil is the correct position, why can't it simply work without all of these contradictions plaguing it?

sovereigngrace · Jun 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
None of that matters. The first mistake you are making, the imagery depicts satan locked up in a prison in solitary confinement, not locked up in a prison and free to roam and mingle with other prisoners inside of this same prison. What matters is, the imagery and what it is depicting, and that the imagery has to make logical sense.

In a real world example, if we compare the following, it is not making logical sense. Someone is thrown into prison into solitary confinement. And while this person is in prison in solitary confinement, this same person then casts others into another prison. Total nonsense. Nothing like that could happen in the real world.

Let's now compare that to the imagery involving satan.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him(this imagery depicting being cast into a prison then being in solitary confinement while in there).

behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison(assuming Amil, this imagery depicting this same devil that is in solitary confinement, doing this while he himself is also in a prison at the time).

Amil appears to involve one contradiction after another. If Amil is the correct position, why can't it simply work without all of these contradictions plaguing it?

No contradictions! You are actually reinforcing my 6th point above: Premil spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point.

What is more you are avoiding key and repeated questions from posters which negate Premil. Finally, you have zero corroboration for your private interpretation of Rev 20. If I am wrong, please answer this question:

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?

BABerean2 · Jun 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
None of that matters. The first mistake you are making, the imagery depicts satan locked up in a prison in solitary confinement, not locked up in a prison and free to roam and mingle with other prisoners inside of this same prison. What matters is, the imagery and what it is depicting, and that the imagery has to make logical sense.

Satan was once in heaven in the presence of God's Holy light. He is now denied from being in that light.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Because of sin Satan was "cast down" to the earth. Compared to heaven, this earth is now the prison of Satan and the other wicked angels who followed him in rebellion. They will never again be in the light of God. They are now in chains "under darkness".

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Is your chain in Revelation 20 made of steel, or of brass? What kind of real chain do you think would bind a demonic spirit, like Satan?

Mar_5:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

.

claninja · Jun 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
Before satan is cast to the earth, he has access to heaven still

Correct, and thus he has the ability to accuse the brothers before day and night before God, but when he is cast out, he no longer has this ability.

Revelation 12:10
For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—he who accuses them day and night before our God.

No one can now accuse or bring charge against God's elect because Christ was placed at the right hand to intercede for us.

Romans 8:33-34 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.

Thus is it evident that satan was cast out at the ascension of Christ.

John 12:31-33 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

DavidPT said:
There is no place in Revelation 12 where a thousand years can fit, keeping in mind that satan is in a pit during the thousand years.

Per revelation 12, when Satan is cast out, the kingdom of God has come:

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

Does not the Premil believe the 1,000 years refers to the establishment of the Kingdom of God?

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

DavidPT said:
Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Logic and plain common sense says, according to verse 1, what follows in the chapter are events taking place on the earth. Verse 2 says---And he opened the bottomless pit. Opened the bottomless pit where? How can it not be on the earth where he just fell to? Verse 3 says---And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth. If they came upon the earth from the bottomless pit, how can that not mean that the bottomless pit is then under the earth's surface?

Attempting to prove a point with more apocalyptic and symbolic language doesn't prove your argument, nor will it convince me of your position, as we will disagree with how to interpret said language.

We should be looking to teachings of Jesus and the apostles to help us understand Revelation.

In the parable of the net, do you believe the literal reality is that God will one day pull up a net and separate literal good and bad fish or do you believe this parable points to a spiritual reality, where the fish and net are simply symbols?

DavidPT said:
Until this war breaks out, satan is still in heaven in some sense or another. Before this war breaks out, does it look like satan has been confined in a pit under the surface of the earth where these locusts are being confined? Of course not. It's ludicrous to think satan has been bound in the pit under the earth before this war breaks out in heaven.

From the gospels, its clear that satan was bound at Christ's 1st coming. Therefore, revelation 20 is parabolic for the events that initiated at Christ's 1st coming:

Matthew 12:28-29 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.

DavidPT said:
I don't even remotely have a clue as to what you are meaning by the 1,000 years are symbolic for the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant.

How many years between David and Jesus? 1,000 years.

IMO the 1,000 years is not symbolic for a time frame as traditional amil teaches. I believe it symbolically points to the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant at Christ's first advent, which resulted in satan bound, satan cast out, the 1st resurrection, and those in Christ to become a kingdom of priests to God. All of the events that occur as a result of the 1,000 years can be found as present realties in the gospes and epistles for the church.

DavidPT said:
The way my mind works in general, right or wrong, something has to at least be logical first before it can even be considered a valid possibility. There is nothing logical about satan already being confined under the earth where the locusts in Revelation 9 are being confined, because if that was logical, one would be able to see it somewhere in Revelation 12, except it's clearly not there. To argue that it is, is to defy logic, IMO.

The Parables and symbolic language from Revelation are often difficult to understand if we separate them from the explanations as found in the gospel and epistles.

DavidPT · Jun 2, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
(8) Because these thousand years cannot be found anywhere else in Scripture, apart from the highly symbolic Revelation 20, Premil is forced to insert a thousand years in text after text where it doesn't exist. Objective Bible students should struggle with building their eschatology on the 3rd last chapter of the Bible, in a highly figurative setting, especially when we are supposedly talking about the 2nd greatest age ever. The scriptural silence elsewhere speaks loud to most of us!

If this is true, the same has to apply in Amils' case as well. That means Amils can't claim we are already in the thousand years, because according to you, "these thousand years cannot be found anywhere else in Scripture, apart from the highly symbolic Revelation 20". What I have in quotes, your words not mine.

Number 8 is a moot point, then.

sovereigngrace said:
(11) Because Premil lacks any corroboration in Scripture for a future 1,000 years’ age after the second coming, it invents 2 “last days” periods to allow Premil to fit. Mark 1 now, and Mark 2 after the second coming. Premils also invent 2 new heavens and new earths. Mark 1 they relate to their alleged future millennium and is sin-cursed and corrupt. Mark 2 is perfect and incorrupt and they equate it to 1,000 years+ after this.

This one at least has some decent arguments that might be in your favor. I myself don't invent 2 new heavens and new earths, yet the majority of Premils certainly do. As to these 2 last days, there is only one literal last day and it appears to be the literal last day of this present age. But that doesn't mean more days can't follow when the next age begins.

I would try and argue that the last day maybe consists of a thousand years. But even that can't work, because after the thousand years is satan's little season. Obviously, it would no longer still be the last day, assuming the last day is a thousand years, when satan is loosed. So like I pointed out, at least you have some decent arguments in number 11, that might be in your favor.

sovereigngrace said:
(13) Premil invents a 3rd group of humans that Scripture knows nothing of, that are too wicked to be raptured at the second coming and too righteous to be destroyed. It is these mortals, they argue, who populate their alleged future millennial earth. The reality is there are only two peoples in this world – the righteous and the unrighteous; those "in Adam" (the 1st birth) and those "in Christ" (2nd birth).

This argument is plain silly since Zechariah 14:16-19, for one, undeniably proves there is another group like such.

sovereigngrace said:
(15) General unqualified phrases like “all,” “all nations,” “the living and the dead,” “every man,” “every one,” “men,” “man,” “all men every where,” “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great,” “all that dwell upon the earth … whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ,” “they that dwell on the earth … whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,” “the world,” “the whole world” and “all the world,” that objective and impartial Bible students acknowledge embrace the whole human race are redefined and explained away to let Premil fit. This shows that the Premil’s boast that they are literalists is inaccurate.

What might be a possible interpretation is this. In context, since worshiping or not worshiping the beast involves religion, and that not everyone on the planet are religious, it could be meaning ones Jesus said He never knew, per Matthew 7. It could be meaning wolves in sheep's clothing. It could be meaning the tares. It could be meaning the goats within the church. Therefore not everyone on the planet are meant by---whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Notice that I clearly said a possible interpretation.

sovereigngrace said:
(17) Premil does not believe that “the end” refers to the end. The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing. When Scripture simply talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then most sane theologians agree it is talking about “the beginning” of creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason I believe is because it cuts across a lot of their end-time theology they have been taught. But I believe we should treat both sayings similarly. Unless Scripture specifically identifies “the end” with a particular event or matter like “the end of barley harvest” (Ruth 2:23) “the end of the sabbath” (Matt 28:1), “the end of the year” (2 Chron 24:23), “the end of the rod” (1 Sam 14:27), or “the end of the commandment” (1 Tim 1:5), etc, etc, then we should understand it as the end of the world (which is the end of the age).

There is an end in this age and there is also an end according to 1 Corinthians 15:24, and that these are not meaning the same end.

sovereigngrace · Jun 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
If this is true, the same has to apply in Amils' case as well. That means Amils can't claim we are already in the thousand years, because according to you, "these thousand years cannot be found anywhere else in Scripture, apart from the highly symbolic Revelation 20". What I have in quotes, your words not mine.

Number 8 is a moot point, then.

Not so! When Amils see "a thousand" they automatically think of 'a long indefinite period of time'. They are not kept within the theological chains Premil have placed themselves in. They, therefore, have multiple Scripture describing an intra-Advent period that we do not know the exact duration of. Jesus never gave an exact time for His return. In fact, He told us that no one knows the day or the hour. Those who are always speculating as to the time are Premils. It goes with the doctrine.

This one at least has some decent arguments that might be in your favor. I myself don't invent 2 new heavens and new earths, yet the majority of Premils certainly do. As to these 2 last days, there is only one literal last day and it appears to be the literal last day of this present age. But that doesn't mean more days can't follow when the next age begins.

I would try and argue that the last day maybe consists of a thousand years. But even that can't work, because after the thousand years is satan's little season. Obviously, it would no longer still be the last day, assuming the last day is a thousand years, when satan is loosed. So like I pointed out, at least you have some decent arguments in number 11, that might be in your favor.

Words like "first" and "last" carry no real normal plain literal meaning for Premils. They simply make it up as they go along to fit their faulty beliefs. For example: in Premil the first resurrection is not the first resurrection but the second. The last day is not the last day, because there are many days after the last day. It is ridiculous.

The "first resurrection" has happened a long time ago. Many Scriptures prove that Christ’s resurrection is the protos or the foremost in time, place, order or importance.

The Greek word for ‘last’ is eschatos from where we get our English word eschatology. The word simply means end, last or final.

This argument is plain silly since Zechariah 14:16-19, for one, undeniably proves there is another group like such.

Who is this 3rd group of humans that Premil invents that are too wicked to be raptured at the second coming and too righteous to be destroyed? Who are they?

What might be a possible interpretation is this. In context, since worshiping or not worshiping the beast involves religion, and that not everyone on the planet are religious, it could be meaning ones Jesus said He never knew, per Matthew 7. It could be meaning wolves in sheep's clothing. It could be meaning the tares. It could be meaning the goats within the church. Therefore not everyone on the planet are meant by---whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Notice that I clearly said a possible interpretation.

Really? That is plainly wrong and required in order to sustain Premil. Sad! Only a certain type of Christian can hold this type of teaching. The rest of us cannot handle its duplicity and contradictory nature.

There is an end in this age and there is also an end according to 1 Corinthians 15:24, and that these are not meaning the same end.

1 Corinthians 15:12-14, 21-24, asking, “how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain…But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

The “coming” of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

Conclusion

You paper over the glaring holes in your position and seem to be content to do that. Amils cannot do that. The issue is: "the end" should literally be understood as "the end" just as "the beginning "means "the beginning." Again, there is no consistency in the Premillennial hermeneutics. They're all over the place! It is it Amillennialists that are actually the literalists.

The reader can judge for themselves who is taking Scripture literal or not. Your arguments are actually reinforcing the Op.

keras · Jun 2, 2020

Every realm will serve and obey His holy people:

Amos 9:13-15 The time is surely coming, says the Lord, when the one who plows shall overtake the one who reaps, and the treader of grapes, the one who sows the seed; the mountains shall drip sweet wine, all the hills shall flow with it. I will restore the fortunes of My people, Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant them upon their Land and they shall never again be plucked up out of the Land I have given them.

That scripture promises restoration for a devastated land and a scattered people and it does so in a beautiful description of overflowing fertility in field and vineyard along with an unqualified pledge of “never again” for His faithful people, from every tribe, race nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:18b-21, to be dispossessed.

Bible prophecy refers to a divinely established Utopia (Greek- good place) in which, God puts an end to this world of injustice and unrighteousness on earth and replaces it with a world of justice and righteousness on earth.

This end times Kingdom is the covenantal kingdom, brought to its ultimate perfection and ideal consummation, here on earth. Hebrews 8:8-12 It will last for 1000 years, as Revelation 20 clearly informs us.

Daniel 7:27 The Kingly power, sovereignty and greatness of all the Kingdoms under heaven will be given to the Holy people of the Most High. Their Kingly power will last for ever and every realm will serve and obey them.

So, how will the God of justice and righteousness treat the Gentiles in establishing this utopian Kingdom on earth?

Micah 4:1-2 In days to come, the Lords House will tower above the hills. The nations will stream toward it, saying; Let us go to the House of Jacob’s God, that He may teach us His ways, for instruction comes from Zion. [and in Isaiah 2:2-4]

Zechariah 8:20 Nations and dwellers in many cities will come to Jerusalem to entreat the favor of the Lord.

Those warlike and idol worshipping peoples will be converted to godly worship, under a God of justice and peace. They will not become Israelites, but all will live together under God. This will be the situation after Jesus Returns, during His Millennium rule.

But we know from the many prophesies like Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 34:11-16, that the time is coming when all the Lord’s faithful Christian people will go to live in all of the holy Land, BEFORE the Return of Jesus. They will, at last, be as God always intended His people to be, His witnesses and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

Psalms 37:29 The righteous shall possess the Land and will live there forever.

sovereigngrace · Jun 2, 2020

keras said:
Every realm will serve and obey His holy people:

Amos 9:13-15 The time is surely coming, says the Lord, when the one who plows shall overtake the one who reaps, and the treader of grapes, the one who sows the seed; the mountains shall drip sweet wine, all the hills shall flow with it. I will restore the fortunes of My people, Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant them upon their Land and they shall never again be plucked up out of the Land I have given them.

That scripture promises restoration for a devastated land and a scattered people and it does so in a beautiful description of overflowing fertility in field and vineyard along with an unqualified pledge of “never again” for His faithful people, from every tribe, race nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:18b-21, to be dispossessed.

Bible prophecy refers to a divinely established Utopia (Greek- good place) in which, God puts an end to this world of injustice and unrighteousness on earth and replaces it with a world of justice and righteousness on earth.

This end times Kingdom is the covenantal kingdom, brought to its ultimate perfection and ideal consummation, here on earth. Hebrews 8:8-12 It will last for 1000 years, as Revelation 20 clearly informs us.

Daniel 7:27 The Kingly power, sovereignty and greatness of all the Kingdoms under heaven will be given to the Holy people of the Most High. Their Kingly power will last for ever and every realm will serve and obey them.

So, how will the God of justice and righteousness treat the Gentiles in establishing this utopian Kingdom on earth?

Micah 4:1-2 In days to come, the Lords House will tower above the hills. The nations will stream toward it, saying; Let us go to the House of Jacob’s God, that He may teach us His ways, for instruction comes from Zion. [and in Isaiah 2:2-4]

Zechariah 8:20 Nations and dwellers in many cities will come to Jerusalem to entreat the favor of the Lord.

Those warlike and idol worshipping peoples will be converted to godly worship, under a God of justice and peace. They will not become Israelites, but all will live together under God. This will be the situation after Jesus Returns, during His Millennium rule.

But we know from the many prophesies like Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 34:11-16, that the time is coming when all the Lord’s faithful Christian people will go to live in all of the holy Land, BEFORE the Return of Jesus. They will, at last, be as God always intended His people to be, His witnesses and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

Psalms 37:29 The righteous shall possess the Land and will live there forever.

Where did any of the OT prophets mention or describe a future "thousand years" or any of the detail mentioned in Revelation 20?

DavidPT · Jun 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Where did any of the OT prophets mention or describe a future "thousand years" or any of the detail mentioned in Revelation 20?

Maybe in Isaiah 2, for one?

Let's start with the following.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

This verse says nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

What does Jesus say in the Discourse?

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Let's now do some closer comparing of the texts in order to determine if the texts agree with one another, or if they contradict one another, if these events are meaning during the same period of time.

A) Let's first assume this age is meant before the 2nd coming.

nation shall not lift up sword against nation(Isaiah 2:4)-----For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom(Matthew 24:7)

Do these texts agree with one another? Or are they contradicting one another? Keeping in mind---if this age is meant before the 2nd coming.

neither shall they learn war any more(Isaiah 2:4)-----And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars(Matthew 24:6)

Do these texts agree with one another? Or are they contradicting one another? Keeping in mind---if this age is meant before the 2nd coming.
----------------------------------------------------

B) Next let's assume Isaiah 2:4 is not meaning in this age before the 2nd coming, but is meaning after the 2nd coming, and that Matthew 24:6-7 is meaning in this age before the 2nd coming.

nation shall not lift up sword against nation(Isaiah 2:4)-----For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom(Matthew 24:7)

Do these texts agree with one another? Or are they contradicting one another? Keeping in mind---if Isaiah 2:4 is not meaning in this age before the 2nd coming, but is meaning after the 2nd coming, and that Matthew 24:6-7 is meaning in this age before the 2nd coming.

neither shall they learn war any more(Isaiah 2:4)-----And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars(Matthew 24:6)

Do these texts agree with one another? Or are they contradicting one another? Keeping in mind---if Isaiah 2:4 is not meaning in this age before the 2nd coming, but is meaning after the 2nd coming, and that Matthew 24:6-7 is meaning in this age before the 2nd coming.

-----------------------------------------

The way it looks to me, both Amil and Premil encounter possible contradictions via A) or B) above, assuming their position is the correct position. Since I'm Premil I will try and deal with the possible contradictions concerning Premil, since Premils would be choosing B) above as the position containing no contradictions. Amils need to deal with their own possible contradictions since Amils would be choosing A) above as the position containing no contradictions.

Some might argue, doesn't B) above contradict even Premil since there is a battle after the thousand years, according to Revelation 20? That's a fair argument. What happens after the thousand years? Are nations battling against nations, as Jesus predicted would happen before He returns? No. There is no contradiction in that part, then. What about the part in Isaiah 2:4----neither shall they learn war any more, wouldn't that be a contradiction if there is a battle after the thousand years?

In order to try and answer that, let's look at Isaiah 2:4 again.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

It seems to me----and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks---that these things symbolize weapons of wars. Since we are in the 21st century, some weapons of war might include tanks, missles, atomic weapons, so on and so on. Assuming the thousand years are after the 2nd coming, and that there is a battle after the 2nd coming, would this battle be involving weapons of war, such as tanks, missles, atomic weapons, so on and so on?

Let's look at something in Ezekiel 39 that might help us here.

Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

If this is happening in the end of this age, or better yet, in the beginning of the next age, and since it would be the 21st century that is in view, obviously no one is literally burning ancient weapons with fire seven years. But that this symbolizes the destroying of modern day weaponry, but that the 7 years are literal, as in, it apparently takes 7 literal years to fully accomplish this. With all of that in mind, no there would not be literal weapons of war being used in the battle after the thousand years, assuming that battle is after the 2nd coming, rather than prior to it.

The way it's beginning to look to me, though there appears to be contradictions with B) above if there is a battle after the thousand years, and that the thousand years are after the 2nd coming, is there really, though? Maybe not.

But there are clearly undeniably contradictions with A) above, though. But that's for Amils to sort out and try and prove there are no contradictions with A) above.

BTW, my point with Ezekiel 39:9 above is meaningless to you since you are unable to grasp, at least concerning Ezekiel 39, that even OT prophecies can contain symbolism, etc, thus no actual ancient weaponry are being meant.

sovereigngrace · Jun 3, 2020

DavidPT said:
Maybe in Isaiah 2, for one?

Let's start with the following.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

This verse says nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

What does Jesus say in the Discourse?

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Let's now do some closer comparing of the texts in order to determine if the texts agree with one another, or if they contradict one another, if these events are meaning during the same period of time.

A) Let's first assume this age is meant before the 2nd coming.

nation shall not lift up sword against nation(Isaiah 2:4)-----For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom(Matthew 24:7)

Do these texts agree with one another? Or are they contradicting one another? Keeping in mind---if this age is meant before the 2nd coming.

neither shall they learn war any more(Isaiah 2:4)-----And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars(Matthew 24:6)

Do these texts agree with one another? Or are they contradicting one another? Keeping in mind---if this age is meant before the 2nd coming.
----------------------------------------------------

B) Next let's assume Isaiah 2:4 is not meaning in this age before the 2nd coming, but is meaning after the 2nd coming, and that Matthew 24:6-7 is meaning in this age before the 2nd coming.

nation shall not lift up sword against nation(Isaiah 2:4)-----For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom(Matthew 24:7)

Do these texts agree with one another? Or are they contradicting one another? Keeping in mind---if Isaiah 2:4 is not meaning in this age before the 2nd coming, but is meaning after the 2nd coming, and that Matthew 24:6-7 is meaning in this age before the 2nd coming.

neither shall they learn war any more(Isaiah 2:4)-----And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars(Matthew 24:6)

Do these texts agree with one another? Or are they contradicting one another? Keeping in mind---if Isaiah 2:4 is not meaning in this age before the 2nd coming, but is meaning after the 2nd coming, and that Matthew 24:6-7 is meaning in this age before the 2nd coming.

-----------------------------------------

The way it looks to me, both Amil and Premil encounter possible contradictions via A) or B) above, assuming their position is the correct position. Since I'm Premil I will try and deal with the possible contradictions concerning Premil, since Premils would be choosing B) above as the position containing no contradictions. Amils need to deal with their own possible contradictions since Amils would be choosing A) above as the position containing no contradictions.

Some might argue, doesn't B) above contradict even Premil since there is a battle after the thousand years, according to Revelation 20? That's a fair argument. What happens after the thousand years? Are nations battling against nations, as Jesus predicted would happen before He returns? No. There is no contradiction in that part, then. What about the part in Isaiah 2:4----neither shall they learn war any more, wouldn't that be a contradiction if there is a battle after the thousand years?

In order to try and answer that, let's look at Isaiah 2:4 again.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

It seems to me----and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks---that these things symbolize weapons of wars. Since we are in the 21st century, some weapons of war might include tanks, missles, atomic weapons, so on and so on. Assuming the thousand years are after the 2nd coming, and that there is a battle after the 2nd coming, would this battle be involving weapons of war, such as tanks, missles, atomic weapons, so on and so on?

Let's look at something in Ezekiel 39 that might help us here.

Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

If this is happening in the end of this age, or better yet, in the beginning of the next age, and since it would be the 21st century that is in view, obviously no one is literally burning ancient weapons with fire seven years. But that this symbolizes the destroying of modern day weaponry, but that the 7 years are literal, as in, it apparently takes 7 literal years to fully accomplish this. With all of that in mind, no there would not be literal weapons of war being used in the battle after the thousand years, assuming that battle is after the 2nd coming, rather than prior to it.

The way it's beginning to look to me, though there appears to be contradictions with B) above if there is a battle after the thousand years, and that the thousand years are after the 2nd coming, is there really, though? Maybe not.

But there are clearly undeniably contradictions with A) above, though. But that's for Amils to sort out and try and prove there are no contradictions with A) above.

BTW, my point with Ezekiel 39:9 above is meaningless to you since you are unable to grasp, at least concerning Ezekiel 39, that even OT prophecies can contain symbolism, etc, thus no actual ancient weaponry are being meant.

Again, I do not see any contradictions with Amil, just contradictions with Premils trying to understand Amil through Premil glasses.

Firstly, You did not answer my question: "Where did any of the OT prophets mention or describe a future "thousand years" or any of the detail mentioned in Revelation 20?" You showed no correlation between Isaiah 2 and Revelation 20.

Secondly, you once again reinforce the Op above (particularly Point 11). There I said: "Because Premil lacks any corroboration in Scripture for a future 1,000 years’ age after the second coming, it invents 2 'last days' periods to allow Premil to fit. Mark 1 now, and Mark 2 after the second coming. Premils also invent 2 new heavens and new earths. Mark 1 they relate to their alleged future millennium and is sin-cursed and corrupt. Mark 2 is perfect and incorrupt and they equate it to 1,000 years+ after this."

Thirdly, the last days began with the earthly ministry of Christ and will end with His one final future climatic coming at the last day. Because you have not even reconciled this elementary truth in your mind it leaves you open to the possibility of inventing a 2nd "the last days" after the second coming to justify Premil. But this is spurious hermeneutics. Your above argument arises from an ignorance of clear and repeated NT truth. The NT explains and expands the lesser OT revelation.

Christ’s earthly ministry ushered in the period of the ‘last days’. Hebrews 1:1-2 declares, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.”

1 Peter 1:20 says that He "verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."

There is no doubt that Isaiah 2 relates to “the last days” (the intra-Advent period), despite the best efforts of Premils to try and place it in a supposed future ‘millennial kingdom’.

Premillennialists refuse to see the biblical contrast between "the last days" (plural) and "the last day" (singular). For to do so would immediate nullify Premil. It is not just that Scripture depicts the second coming as “the end of the age/world” (as many Scriptures state), it is that it labels it as “the last day” or simply “the end.” The Bible shows the resurrection/judgment of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked to occur on “the last day” of “the last days” when Jesus comes. Martha had a full awareness of that truth in the New Testament, when speaking of her brother Lazarus to Christ, in John 11:23-24, “Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Christ did not rebuke this understanding of the last day. In fact, Christ taught in complete agreement in John 6:39. Jesus said in John 6:39: “all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

Jesus said in John 6:39: “every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Jesus said in John 6:44: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Jesus said in John 6:54: “Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood (speaking spiritually and figuratively), hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Whilst, we are plainly in the last days there is an actual day coming which will conclude this scene of time and will see the final operation of God’s judgment upon sin, Satan and the wicked. That individual day is frequently known as “the last day.”

The sum total of God’s elect will be gloriously raised at this concluding final day. The resurrection of the righteous like that of the wicked is therefore for the purpose of judgment and happens on that great last or final day of salvation. That is how Paul could say with all assurance in 2 Timothy 4:8, “there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”

Moreover, this concluding last day is not just a day of resurrection and judgment for the righteous but also for the wicked. This is confirmed by Christ in John 12:48, when He said, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

Here the wicked are judged on the same day that the righteous are judged, namely, the “last day” of the “last days.” The term “the last day” is quoted different times in the New Testament without any form (or undoubted requirement) of qualification or any hint that there are two separate last days, as the Premillennialist would try and argue. When Christ or any other person referred to that final day in the New Testament it was always constantly in the context of its all-consummating nature, each time referring to the matter of the resurrection/judgment of both the wicked and the righteous. The references expressly refer to the last day of this age (the Gospel age) – the day that ushers in the new heaven and the new earth. There are absolutely no grounds for believing that the last day refers to a future millennium, and therefore lasts for a literal 1,000 years. Such a suggestion only emanates out of the Premillennialist camp in order to support their flawed view of Revelation 20.

Significantly, in all the above references, the wording in the original for “last day” is always identical – eschatee heemara. The Greek word eschatee used here comes from the root word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final. Eschatology is therefore the study of, or teaching on, end times or final or last things. It covers the period of redemptive history.

sovereigngrace · Jun 3, 2020

DavidPT said:
Maybe in Isaiah 2, for one?

Let's start with the following.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

This verse says nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

What does Jesus say in the Discourse?

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Let's now do some closer comparing of the texts in order to determine if the texts agree with one another, or if they contradict one another, if these events are meaning during the same period of time.

A) Let's first assume this age is meant before the 2nd coming.

nation shall not lift up sword against nation(Isaiah 2:4)-----For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom(Matthew 24:7)

Do these texts agree with one another? Or are they contradicting one another? Keeping in mind---if this age is meant before the 2nd coming.

neither shall they learn war any more(Isaiah 2:4)-----And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars(Matthew 24:6)

Do these texts agree with one another? Or are they contradicting one another? Keeping in mind---if this age is meant before the 2nd coming.
----------------------------------------------------

B) Next let's assume Isaiah 2:4 is not meaning in this age before the 2nd coming, but is meaning after the 2nd coming, and that Matthew 24:6-7 is meaning in this age before the 2nd coming.

nation shall not lift up sword against nation(Isaiah 2:4)-----For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom(Matthew 24:7)

Do these texts agree with one another? Or are they contradicting one another? Keeping in mind---if Isaiah 2:4 is not meaning in this age before the 2nd coming, but is meaning after the 2nd coming, and that Matthew 24:6-7 is meaning in this age before the 2nd coming.

neither shall they learn war any more(Isaiah 2:4)-----And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars(Matthew 24:6)

Do these texts agree with one another? Or are they contradicting one another? Keeping in mind---if Isaiah 2:4 is not meaning in this age before the 2nd coming, but is meaning after the 2nd coming, and that Matthew 24:6-7 is meaning in this age before the 2nd coming.

-----------------------------------------

The way it looks to me, both Amil and Premil encounter possible contradictions via A) or B) above, assuming their position is the correct position. Since I'm Premil I will try and deal with the possible contradictions concerning Premil, since Premils would be choosing B) above as the position containing no contradictions. Amils need to deal with their own possible contradictions since Amils would be choosing A) above as the position containing no contradictions.

Some might argue, doesn't B) above contradict even Premil since there is a battle after the thousand years, according to Revelation 20? That's a fair argument. What happens after the thousand years? Are nations battling against nations, as Jesus predicted would happen before He returns? No. There is no contradiction in that part, then. What about the part in Isaiah 2:4----neither shall they learn war any more, wouldn't that be a contradiction if there is a battle after the thousand years?

In order to try and answer that, let's look at Isaiah 2:4 again.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

It seems to me----and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks---that these things symbolize weapons of wars. Since we are in the 21st century, some weapons of war might include tanks, missles, atomic weapons, so on and so on. Assuming the thousand years are after the 2nd coming, and that there is a battle after the 2nd coming, would this battle be involving weapons of war, such as tanks, missles, atomic weapons, so on and so on?

Let's look at something in Ezekiel 39 that might help us here.

Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

If this is happening in the end of this age, or better yet, in the beginning of the next age, and since it would be the 21st century that is in view, obviously no one is literally burning ancient weapons with fire seven years. But that this symbolizes the destroying of modern day weaponry, but that the 7 years are literal, as in, it apparently takes 7 literal years to fully accomplish this. With all of that in mind, no there would not be literal weapons of war being used in the battle after the thousand years, assuming that battle is after the 2nd coming, rather than prior to it.

The way it's beginning to look to me, though there appears to be contradictions with B) above if there is a battle after the thousand years, and that the thousand years are after the 2nd coming, is there really, though? Maybe not.

But there are clearly undeniably contradictions with A) above, though. But that's for Amils to sort out and try and prove there are no contradictions with A) above.

BTW, my point with Ezekiel 39:9 above is meaningless to you since you are unable to grasp, at least concerning Ezekiel 39, that even OT prophecies can contain symbolism, etc, thus no actual ancient weaponry are being meant.

Fourthly, your perception of peace is also in error. It is not talking about natural physical earthly carnal peace but rather the spiritual heavenly eternal peace that attends being part of the kingdom of God. That is true peace and the only peace that matters.

Isaiah 2:2-4 says, speaking of the Lord’s first Advent, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Micah 4:1-3 parallels this teaching, saying, “in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

Isaiah and Micah received symbolic visions 500 years before Christ of an approaching new order of peace. They described the blessing that this new order would bring and the scale of its influence. Interestingly (and graciously for us) it was a new arrangement that would embrace “all nation.” Gentiles would be brought unto an equal footing with Jews in regard to the Gospel opportunity.

The “mountain of the Lord's house” here relates to the kingdom of God. It is not talking about some physical temple in some geographical physical location. We know that for several reasons (none more so that the New Testament outworking of this prediction) but also by the actual narrative itself. This mountain is said to be found “in the top of the mountains” (referring to the carnal kingdoms of men).

There is no reason to identify them with the eternal state whether in a supposed future millennium or on the new earth. The “swords” and “spears” in these passages are used to symbolize the weapons of war whereas the “plowshares” and “pruninghooks” are used to represent the tools of peacetime. The weapons of war refer to the arm of flesh whereas the tools of peacetime refer to our trust upon the Lord.

A few chapters after Isaiah 2:2 in Isaiah 9:6-7 we get further detail on what this new period would usher in: “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."

Prophesying of Christ the Old Testament prophet declared in Micah 5:2 & 5: “thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting ... And this man shall be the peace.”

The Old Testament prophets were constantly looking for Messiah and the true peace that He would introduce. Regardless of the success of Israel’s leaders (kings, judges, priest) they were imperfect and simply preparatory to the coming perfect King who was the eternal personification of peace.

Zacharias prophesied in Luke 1:76-79 of Christ, “And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.”

Zechariah 9:9-10 predicted: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass … and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.”

The prophets recognized that this “peace” was not simply an ethnic thing pertaining exclusively to natural Israel but was a spiritual thing that would affect all nations. This is what Isaiah 2:2-4 and Micah 4:1-3 is speaking of. We learn: “the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.” What is more we don’t need to speculate about the time-period in view, the text confirms: “in the last days it shall come to pass.”

This passage vividly shows salvation going out to the nations of the world after the cross. It shows the establishment of the kingdom of God (described here as “the mountain of the Lord's house”), above all other kingdoms of the earth (described here as mountains) and smaller ethnic groups (described here as hills).

The weapons within the kingdom are not carnal. Romans 14:17 sums it up like this: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink (or, the kingdom of God is not material things); but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

The kingdom of God that Christ brought was a spiritual Kingdom and incorporates the whole domain of which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His divine kingship, His dominion and His intimate rule. It is the realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and righteousness is pre-eminent.

These passages are telling us that Messiah would come and bring peace to His subjects. This would be performed through the Word of God going out of Zion to all nations in these last days. Christ did this. The Gentiles are now coming to the truth of God by their millions. Isaiah receives a pictorial vision of the approaching new covenant order, and the last days. It is given in a metaphorical style describing the incredible peace and reconciliation that comes through the success of the Gospel. The mountain of the Lord refers to the kingdom introduced by Christ. There is no more war there. Mountains in Scripture prophetically speak of kingdoms. That is the case in Isaiah 2 and Malachi 4. The peace described came with the earthly ministry of Christ. It is spiritual. It pertains to the kingdom of God. It also relates to the last days – the days we are living in.

DavidPT · Jun 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Firstly, You did not answer my question: "Where did any of the OT prophets mention or describe a future "thousand years" or any of the detail mentioned in Revelation 20?" You showed no correlation between Isaiah 2 and Revelation 20.

Regardless whether one is Premil or Amil, it is impossible that Isaiah 2:4 cannot be meaning during the thousand years. Even you obviously agree it's during the thousand years since the same period of time you equate with Isaiah 2:4, is the same period of time you equate with the thousand years. Yet you illogically argue there is nowhere else in the Bible except for Revelation 20, that speaks about a thousand year period.

Yet, it doesn't matter whether that thousand year period is literal or not, that is beside the point. The point is, whether a literal thousand years or not, it would be impossible that OT prophets never spoke of this time. What they wouldn't have known at the time is that it involves a thousand years, where that might mean a literal thousand years, or that it might not mean a literal thousand years, as Amil argues..

DavidPT · Jun 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Fourthly, your perception of peace is also in error. It is not talking about natural physical earthly carnal peace but rather the spiritual heavenly eternal peace that attends being part of the kingdom of God. That is true peace and the only peace that matters.

Isaiah 2:2-4 says, speaking of the Lord’s first Advent, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Micah 4:1-3 parallels this teaching, saying, “in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

Isaiah and Micah received symbolic visions 500 years before Christ of an approaching new order of peace. They described the blessing that this new order would bring and the scale of its influence. Interestingly (and graciously for us) it was a new arrangement that would embrace “all nation.” Gentiles would be brought unto an equal footing with Jews in regard to the Gospel opportunity.

The “mountain of the Lord's house” here relates to the kingdom of God. It is not talking about some physical temple in some geographical physical location. We know that for several reasons (none more so that the New Testament outworking of this prediction) but also by the actual narrative itself. This mountain is said to be found “in the top of the mountains” (referring to the carnal kingdoms of men).

There is no reason to identify them with the eternal state whether in a supposed future millennium or on the new earth. The “swords” and “spears” in these passages are used to symbolize the weapons of war whereas the “plowshares” and “pruninghooks” are used to represent the tools of peacetime. The weapons of war refer to the arm of flesh whereas the tools of peacetime refer to our trust upon the Lord.

A few chapters after Isaiah 2:2 in Isaiah 9:6-7 we get further detail on what this new period would usher in: “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."

Prophesying of Christ the Old Testament prophet declared in Micah 5:2 & 5: “thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting ... And this man shall be the peace.”

The Old Testament prophets were constantly looking for Messiah and the true peace that He would introduce. Regardless of the success of Israel’s leaders (kings, judges, priest) they were imperfect and simply preparatory to the coming perfect King who was the eternal personification of peace.

Zacharias prophesied in Luke 1:76-79 of Christ, “And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.”

Zechariah 9:9-10 predicted: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass … and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.”

The prophets recognized that this “peace” was not simply an ethnic thing pertaining exclusively to natural Israel but was a spiritual thing that would affect all nations. This is what Isaiah 2:2-4 and Micah 4:1-3 is speaking of. We learn: “the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.” What is more we don’t need to speculate about the time-period in view, the text confirms: “in the last days it shall come to pass.”

This passage vividly shows salvation going out to the nations of the world after the cross. It shows the establishment of the kingdom of God (described here as “the mountain of the Lord's house”), above all other kingdoms of the earth (described here as mountains) and smaller ethnic groups (described here as hills).

The weapons within the kingdom are not carnal. Romans 14:17 sums it up like this: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink (or, the kingdom of God is not material things); but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

The kingdom of God that Christ brought was a spiritual Kingdom and incorporates the whole domain of which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His divine kingship, His dominion and His intimate rule. It is the realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and righteousness is pre-eminent.

These passages are telling us that Messiah would come and bring peace to His subjects. This would be performed through the Word of God going out of Zion to all nations in these last days. Christ did this. The Gentiles are now coming to the truth of God by their millions. Isaiah receives a pictorial vision of the approaching new covenant order, and the last days. It is given in a metaphorical style describing the incredible peace and reconciliation that comes through the success of the Gospel. The mountain of the Lord refers to the kingdom introduced by Christ. There is no more war there. Mountains in Scripture prophetically speak of kingdoms. That is the case in Isaiah 2 and Malachi 4. The peace described came with the earthly ministry of Christ. It is spiritual. It pertains to the kingdom of God. It also relates to the last days – the days we are living in.

You better hope there are no Amils in the military since that would clearly contradict this part in Isaiah 2:4----neither shall they(Amils) learn war any more.

If all Amils were Jehovah Witnesses though, then interpreted Isaiah 2:4 the way most of you Amils do, at least none of them would be contradicting what they claim Isaiah 2:4 is meaning by then enlisting in the military.

sovereigngrace · Jun 3, 2020

DavidPT said:
Regardless whether one is Premil or Amil, it is impossible that Isaiah 2:4 cannot be meaning during the thousand years. Even you obviously agree it's during the thousand years since the same period of time you equate with Isaiah 2:4, is the same period of time you equate with the thousand years. Yet you illogically argue there is nowhere else in the Bible except for Revelation 20, that speaks about a thousand year period.

Yet, it doesn't matter whether that thousand year period is literal or not, that is beside the point.

I was a police officer for 15 years in Northern Ireland. The first principle of evidence is: he who alleges must prove. The ball is in your court to furnish us with corroboration for each tenet of Premillennial doctrine. The reality is, as many of us former Premillennialists have found, there is zero corroboration for the doctrine elsewhere in Scripture. The faulty interpretation placed on Revelation 20 contradicts numerous Scripture. Pick any subject and the rest of Scripture says the opposite to Premil. That is why many of us have abandoned it.

If I am wrong, please provide me with clear corroboration of these main tenets:

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?
Are Satan and his minions physical or spiritual beings?

sovereigngrace · Jun 3, 2020

DavidPT said:
You better hope there are no Amils in the military since that would clearly contradict this part in Isaiah 2:4----neither shall they(Amils) learn war any more.

If all Amils were Jehovah Witnesses though, then interpreted Isaiah 2:4 the way most of you Amils do, at least none of them would be contradicting what they claim Isaiah 2:4 is meaning by then enlisting in the military.

Obviously, you did not read my post. Once again you failed to address one single Scripture or point. This is becoming a habit. I wonder why? Your reasoning does not stand up to scriptural scrutiny. If it did you would have no difficulty addressing the many avoided rebuttals.

The reality is, one needs eyes to see in order to grasp the spiritual, heavenly and eternal nature of the kingdom. Jesus told us that. Unfortunately, the hyper-literalist Judaizing Pharisees did not see this with their misguided hyper-literal racist physical carnal earthly kingdom. Premil make the same mistake. The Pharisaic expectation was completely different from God’s plan. Christ brought a spiritual heavenly kingdom to this earth not a physical natural kingdom as some imagined from their understanding of Old Testament readings.

The reader can see for themselves on forums like this the impotence and non-corroborative nature of the Premil position.

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads