Eastern Orthodox Christian Discussion on Epistimology

Elocm

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that's only because you want to put something that isn't philosophy into a philosophical box, and will only be satisfied when it fits there.

Why are you assuming that philosophy and theology don't overlap? How have you come to this idea? Can you give a justification for this concept?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Why are you assuming that philosophy and theology don't overlap? How have you come to this idea? Can you give a justification for this concept?

I never said they don't overlap. I simply said they are different disciplines, and therefore rules of philosophical argument don't apply to the question at hand. Christian philosophy comes after knowledge of God, but not before.

and you find it from the Old Testament, through the saints of today. it's in the Liturgy, the hymns, the prayers, etc. I didn't come up with this at all, it's what Orthodoxy teaches.
 
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icxn

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The fact that Truth is a person, and not a concept is itself a concept. The fact that you can put it into words means that you can conceptualize it. It's a concept that you had to learn, but apparently are unable to justify it.
I'm unable to justify it through reasoning. Reasoning is the lower function of our intellect, to which it has been reduced after the fall. It's domain is the visible creation and the laws that govern it. Spiritual (noetic) perception is something else entirely.
 
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Elocm

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I never said they don't overlap. I simply said they are different disciplines, and therefore rules of philosophical argument don't apply to the question at hand. Christian philosophy comes after knowledge of God, but not before.

and you find it from the Old Testament, through the saints of today. it's in the Liturgy, the hymns, the prayers, etc. I didn't come up with this at all, it's what Orthodoxy teaches.

The question at hand is epistemology, which is a branch of philosophy which deals with knowledge. Therefore, philosophy must be used when we are talking about knowledge of God. I understand that Orthodoxy teaches that knowledge of God comes from experience of God, which itself is a philosophical concept which requires justification.
 
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icxn

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Here's something relevant from Saint Symeon the New Theologian:

I didn’t know yet, my Lord, that you exist, you who made me from clay and gave me all these goods. I didn’t know yet, that you yourself was my un-proud God and Lord. Because I had not received yet the grace to hear your voice in order to know you; you had not yet come and said mystically to me that ‘I am’. I was unworthy and unclean, still having the ears of my soul obstructed by the clay of sin, and my eyes under the command of disbelief and of the sense and fog of the passions. And I was seeing thus you my God, but without knowing, not having first believed that God, as much as possible being seen, he is being seen by some, I could not discern that God or God’s glory is this, which, sometimes thus, sometimes otherwise, is revealed, but the miracle being unusual astonished me and filled the whole of my soul and of my heart with joy, so that I was seeing even my very body partake of that ineffable grace. But I didn’t know yet clearly who you are, whom I was seeing.

I started to see more often the light, sometimes inside, when my soul enjoyed serenity and peace, sometimes outside somewhere far away appeared to me or it was wholly hiding itself and hidden it was bringing sadness unbearable to me, because I was thinking it will no more in any way be revealed. And while I was mourning and weeping and showing all kinds of strangeness, obedience and humility, it was revealing itself upon me just like the sun that cuts the fatness of the cloud and little by little appears friendly in the shape of a sphere.

This way then you, the ineffable, the invisible, the untouchable, the immovable, the everywhere forever and in everything present and filling everything, at all times, to say so, in day and night being seen and hidden, going away and coming, becoming invisible and suddenly appearing, little by little you drove away the darkness inside me, you drove away the cloud, you made thinner my fatness, the dirt of my spiritual eyes you cleaned perfectly, removed the obstacles from the ears of my mind and you opened them, you surrounded and removed the covering of insensitivity, and besides these, all passion and all carnal pleasure you drove to perfect sleep and perfectly you exiled it away from me.

These are God’s wonders towards us, brothers! And while we are elevated to a greater perfection, no more like before without shape or form the shapeless and formless comes, or the presence and arrival of His light in silence works in us - but how? In some form, yet God’s form. God is revealed not in a shape or outline, but in incomprehensible, wonderful and formless light formed is revealed simple - nothing more can we say or express - , He starts to be revealed clearly and to be known in a great familiarity and to be seen much clearly, the invisible, invisibly speaks and hears and, as if a friend to a friend, face to face, who is by his nature the God speaks with them who have been born from Him by grace Gods, and as a father loves and by his sons He is loved in a great warmth and He becomes for them a strange vision and a more terrific sound, without being able either to be spoken by them worthily, or to be neglected, covered in silence. Because by the yearning for Him they always are lit up and mystically by Him resound. (more...)
 
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ArmyMatt

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The question at hand is epistemology, which is a branch of philosophy which deals with knowledge. Therefore, philosophy must be used when we are talking about knowledge of God. I understand that Orthodoxy teaches that knowledge of God comes from experience of God, which itself is a philosophical concept which requires justification.

no Church Father would agree with that. the Bible disagrees with that. the experience of God isn't philosophical at all. the Palamite Councils in the 1300s make that incredibly clear.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Here's something relevant from Saint Symeon the New Theologian:

I didn’t know yet, my Lord, that you exist, you who made me from clay and gave me all these goods. I didn’t know yet, that you yourself was my un-proud God and Lord. Because I had not received yet the grace to hear your voice in order to know you; you had not yet come and said mystically to me that ‘I am’. I was unworthy and unclean, still having the ears of my soul obstructed by the clay of sin, and my eyes under the command of disbelief and of the sense and fog of the passions. And I was seeing thus you my God, but without knowing, not having first believed that God, as much as possible being seen, he is being seen by some, I could not discern that God or God’s glory is this, which, sometimes thus, sometimes otherwise, is revealed, but the miracle being unusual astonished me and filled the whole of my soul and of my heart with joy, so that I was seeing even my very body partake of that ineffable grace. But I didn’t know yet clearly who you are, whom I was seeing.

I started to see more often the light, sometimes inside, when my soul enjoyed serenity and peace, sometimes outside somewhere far away appeared to me or it was wholly hiding itself and hidden it was bringing sadness unbearable to me, because I was thinking it will no more in any way be revealed. And while I was mourning and weeping and showing all kinds of strangeness, obedience and humility, it was revealing itself upon me just like the sun that cuts the fatness of the cloud and little by little appears friendly in the shape of a sphere.

This way then you, the ineffable, the invisible, the untouchable, the immovable, the everywhere forever and in everything present and filling everything, at all times, to say so, in day and night being seen and hidden, going away and coming, becoming invisible and suddenly appearing, little by little you drove away the darkness inside me, you drove away the cloud, you made thinner my fatness, the dirt of my spiritual eyes you cleaned perfectly, removed the obstacles from the ears of my mind and you opened them, you surrounded and removed the covering of insensitivity, and besides these, all passion and all carnal pleasure you drove to perfect sleep and perfectly you exiled it away from me.

These are God’s wonders towards us, brothers! And while we are elevated to a greater perfection, no more like before without shape or form the shapeless and formless comes, or the presence and arrival of His light in silence works in us - but how? In some form, yet God’s form. God is revealed not in a shape or outline, but in incomprehensible, wonderful and formless light formed is revealed simple - nothing more can we say or express - , He starts to be revealed clearly and to be known in a great familiarity and to be seen much clearly, the invisible, invisibly speaks and hears and, as if a friend to a friend, face to face, who is by his nature the God speaks with them who have been born from Him by grace Gods, and as a father loves and by his sons He is loved in a great warmth and He becomes for them a strange vision and a more terrific sound, without being able either to be spoken by them worthily, or to be neglected, covered in silence. Because by the yearning for Him they always are lit up and mystically by Him resound. (more...)

St Justin Martyr says a similar thing.
 
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Elocm

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no Church Father would agree with that. the Bible disagrees with that. the experience of God isn't philosophical at all. the Palamite Councils in the 1300s make that incredibly clear.

Why should I believe the Church Fathers, the Scriptures or the Councils? How can I know that what they taught was true? and how can these beliefs be justified?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Why should I believe the Church Fathers, the Scriptures or the Councils? How can I know that what they taught was true? and how can these beliefs be justified?

again, you know they are true because you know God. He makes Himself known to you. that's how the Fathers, Scriptures, and Councils work.
 
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Elocm

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again, you know they are true because you know God. He makes Himself known to you. that's how the Fathers, Scriptures, and Councils work.

Which is an experience that requires no justification, outside of "I just know" Which is circular. And is a claim that can be made by any religious group.

I'm gonna have to leave it at that. Thanks for engaging with me, I appreciate it!

Do either of you have any recommended reading material, or any final thoughts that might help?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Which is an experience that requires no justification, outside of "I just know" Which is circular. And is a claim that can be made by any religious group.

I'm gonna have to leave it at that. Thanks for engaging with me, I appreciate it!

Do either of you have any recommended reading material, or any final thoughts that might help?

again, it's not a philosophical argument. and while it can be made by any religious group, as I said before, the Incarnation makes it a very different claim than any other religion.

if you want reading material, read our more philosophical Fathers (like Sts Justin Martyr or Gregory of Nyssa), and see how they say that there comes a point with God where you go beyond philosophy.
 
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Elocm

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again, it's not a philosophical argument. and while it can be made by any religious group, as I said before, the Incarnation makes it a very different claim than any other religion.

if you want reading material, read our more philosophical Fathers (like Sts Justin Martyr or Gregory of Nyssa), and see how they say that there comes a point with God where you go beyond philosophy.

Are there any specific works by either of them that I should read first?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Are there any specific works by either of them that I should read first?

not any that really comes to mind, I would just start with them. also, pay attention to the services the next time in Church, and see how the knowledge of God is approached.
 
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