Total depravity

JLB777 · Jun 3, 2020

Hammster said:
We all find favor when we are sinful and corrupt.

Those who are sinful and corrupt will perish in the fires of hell.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8

Jesus warned us to remain in Him or be cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here’s how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

JLB

Hammster · Jun 3, 2020

JLB777 said:
Those who are sinful and corrupt will perish in the fires of hell.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8

Jesus warned us to remain in Him or be cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here’s how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

JLB

I’m not sure what your point is. Are you saying that you were not sinful before you were saved?

Gup20 · Jun 3, 2020

JLB777 said:
Noah found favor with God because he was just, and walked uprightly.

Unless you believe he found favor with God because he was sinful, and corrupt.

JLB

But Noah was not just according to The Law of Moses ... it wouldn't be given for 1,600+ years. So there is uprightness and justice apart from The Law.

Noxot · Jun 3, 2020

I don't know what the claims of this doctrine of total depravity is but if we were totally only evil then we would not know God or be capable of being saved by him. We would have no desire to be saved by God.

Hammster · Jun 3, 2020

Noxot said:
I don't know what the claims of this doctrine of total depravity is but if we were totally only evil then we would not know God or be capable of being saved by him. We would have no desire to be saved by God.

Exactly!!!! That’s why we must be born again.

Noxot · Jun 3, 2020

Hammster said:
Exactly!!!! That’s why we must be born again.

My only real bone to pick with this is that Christianity has a long history of rejecting a certain kind of freedom. It leads them to believe that only God's grace plays the role in Salvation. but in the son I see both the freedom to pick the truth which sets you free and the truth which sets us free. The son of God is fully human and fully God who contains within him both the first Adam and the second Adam. So if there is a total depravity I would have to call it death. The sinful condition must be like a branch that has long withered and died, cut off from its source of life and freedom. If humans are flesh, Soul and Spirit then maybe death is to be closed off from Spirit. The Flesh is the least free of all.

But something still strikes me wrong to claim that everyone is fully and wholly dead. Some only appear to be maimed in certain ways. But since God is universal and the Son of God is universal and they are the very foundations of reality then as much as someone is good they are with God or with some angel that is with God.

I'm aware that many Christians are against God being Universal and Christ being the very way, truth and life. but I think it's wrong for Christians to condemn those that truly confess Christ with their heart. So an utmost condemnation of humanity is only true for the outer man. I think many Christians Pride themselves in speaking correct words and having certain beliefs that make them better than others.

Hammster · Jun 3, 2020

Noxot said:
My only real bone to pick with this is that Christianity has a long history of rejecting a certain kind of freedom. It leads them to believe that only God's grace plays the role in Salvation. but in the son I see both the freedom to pick the truth which sets you free and the truth which sets us free.

Fair enough. Where do you see that?

Noxot · Jun 3, 2020

Hammster said:
Fair enough. Where do you see that?

I think it's just something that can happen to us sometimes. To stumble over the Cornerstone. Because the Son of God is fully human I must believe that God wills Humanity and not just divinity. The process of salvation is rooted in the trinity, but it is not just Divine Freedom at work it is also a human freedom fully embracing Divine Grace. In the son of God we find our very selves. Without the trinity we can't even be ourselves, we are just some dead thing. But God is love and one cannot love without freedom.

Hammster · Jun 3, 2020

Noxot said:
I think it's just something that can happen to us sometimes. To stumble over the Cornerstone. Because the Son of God is fully human I must believe that God wills Humanity and not just divinity. The process of salvation is rooted in the trinity, but it is not just Divine Freedom at work it is also a human freedom fully embracing Divine Grace. In the son of God we find our very selves. Without the trinity we can't even be ourselves, we are just some dead thing. But God is love and one cannot love without freedom.

Well, I can’t really offer up a response to what you feel.

JLB777 · Jun 3, 2020

Hammster said:
I’m not sure what your point is. Are you saying that you were not sinful before you were saved?

I’m saying total depravity is not biblical.

Cain was capable of ruling over sin and doing what was right.

He simply chose not to.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.
Genesis 4:7

Able had a physical body with sin, just like Cain.

JLB

JLB777 · Jun 3, 2020

Gup20 said:
But Noah was not just according to The Law of Moses ... it wouldn't be given for 1,600+ years. So there is uprightness and justice apart from The Law.

Of course there is righteousness apart from the law.

It’s called the righteousness of faith.

JLB

Hammster · Jun 3, 2020

JLB777 said:
I’m saying total depravity is not biblical.

Cain was capable of ruling over sin and doing what was right.

He simply chose not to.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.
Genesis 4:7

Able had a physical body with sin, just like Cain.

JLB

I’m not sure how you think that makes your point.

JLB777 · Jun 3, 2020

Hammster said:
I’m not sure how you think that makes your point.

My original point from post 92.

Calvinism is false man made doctrine.

This is my point.

Total Depravity is a man made doctrine.

JLB

Hammster · Jun 3, 2020

JLB777 said:
My original point from post 92.

Calvinism is false man made doctrine.

This is my point.

Total Depravity is a man made doctrine.

JLB

But your points haven’t proven that.

Noxot · Jun 3, 2020

Is the body of Jesus Christ also totally depraved? Of course it's not and we are supposed to be part of that body. So total depravity is only a temporary phase at best.

Hammster · Jun 3, 2020

Noxot said:
Is the body of Jesus Christ also totally depraved? Of course it's not and we are supposed to be part of that body. So total depravity is only a temporary phase at best.

And against, it’s why we must be born again.

Noxot · Jun 3, 2020

Hammster said:
And against, it’s why we must be born again.

Born from above. but then that means that we would descend from heaven into the Earth. I'm back.

pescador · Jun 3, 2020

Noxot said:
Born from above. but then that means that we would descend from heaven into the Earth. I'm back.

Say what?? There is nothing mysterious about "you must be born from above". It has no relationship to our descending from heaven. Good grief!!

JLB777 · Jun 4, 2020

Hammster said:
But your points haven’t proven that.

The scriptures I have provided, most certainly prove that man has the ability to choose to do good, and rule over sin.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it. Genesis 4:7

If Cain was totally depraved, could he choose to do good, and rule over sin?

The simple truth is, totally depraved is a man made term, to promote a man made doctrine.

JLB

Hammster · Jun 4, 2020

JLB777 said:
The scriptures I have provided, most certainly prove that man has the ability to choose to do good, and rule over sin.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it. Genesis 4:7

If Cain was totally depraved, could he choose to do good, and rule over sin?

The simple truth is, totally depraved is a man made term, to promote a man made doctrine.

JLB

That’s it? One verse? And it’s not one that even support the idea that man can do good apart from the Holy Spirit.

Total depravity

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