THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

ClementofA · Jun 3, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
The results of this destruction being eternal however is shown in the EXAMPLE of Sodom and Gomorrha as shown in JUDE 1:7

You say the "results of this destruction being eternal...is shown in the EXAMPLE of Sodom and Gomorrha as shown in JUDE 1:7"? Wrong. Have you never read the Scriptures, that Sodom's destruction will be reversed when their bodies are raised from the dead?

LoveGodsWord said:
JUDE 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, SUFFERING THE VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE.

The "ETERNAL FIRE" here is the presence of God...

No, it doesn't say that.

All you're doing is assuming that to be true in reading it into the text.

The historical record indicates the age lasting (or long lasting or eonian) fire was still burning in Jude's time. But evidently it is not still burning today and eternally, so is finite, not "eternal". Hence the translation "eternal" is wrong. Again, the historical record indicates the fire was long lasting as it was still burning long after it destroyed Sodom. Here is the historical evidence of that:

"... that fire, with which those cities, and the inhabitants of it, were consumed; which, Philo the (k) Jew says, burnt till his time, and must be burning when Jude wrote this epistle..."

"(k) De Abrahamo, p. 370."

"...Charles notes on this that “the Gehenna valley here includes the adjacent country down to the Dead Sea. A subterranean fire was believed to exist under the Gehenna valley.” "

Jude 1 Expositor's Greek Testament

"But what if Jude believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah had not been extinguished? What if he believed that the fires still burned in his day? Indeed, what if it were common knowledge that the fires of destruction still burned... An examination of the historical record would seem to indicate that this is precisely the case:

" "And in one day these populous cities became the tomb of their inhabitants, and the vast edifices of stone and timber became thin dust and ashes. And when the flames had consumed everything that was visible and that existed on the face of the earth, they proceeded to burn even the earth itself, penetrating into its lowest recesses, and destroying all the vivifying powers which existed within it so as to produce a complete and everlasting barrenness, so that it should never again be able to bear fruit, or to put forth any verdure; and to this very day it is scorched up. For the fire of the lightning is what is most difficult to extinguish, and creeps on pervading everything, and smouldering. And a most evident proof of this is to be found in what is seen to this day: for the smoke which is still emitted, and the sulphur which men dig up there, are a proof of the calamity which befell that country" (Philo, On Abraham 27)."

" "The length of this lake is five hundred and eighty furlongs, where it is extended as far as Zoar in Arabia; and its breadth is a hundred and fifty. The country of Sodom borders
upon it. It was of old a most happy land, both for the fruits it bore and the riches of its cities, although it be now all burnt up. It is related how, for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by lightning; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that Divine fire, and the traces [or shadows] of the five cities are still to be seen, as well as the ashes growing in their fruits; which fruits have a color as if they were fit to be eaten, but if you pluck them with your hands, they dissolve into smoke and ashes. And thus what is related of this land of Sodom hath these marks of credibility which our very sight affords us." (Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, IV.8.4)."

" "The fire which burns beneath the ground and the stench render the inhabitants of the neighboring country sickly and very short lived" (Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica, II.48)."

" "Lake Sirbonis [most historians agree that Strabo has confused Lake Sirbonis with the Dead Sea] is large; in fact some state that it is one thousand stadia in circuit; however, it extends parallel to the coast to a length of slightly more than two hundred stadia, is deep to the very shore, and has water so very heavy that there is no use for divers, and any person who walks into it and proceeds no farther than up to his navel is immediately raised afloat. It is full of asphalt. The asphalt is blown to the surface at irregular intervals from the midst of the deep, and with it rise bubbles, as though the water were boiling; and the surface of the lake, being convex, presents the appearance of a hill. With the asphalt there arises also much soot, which, though smoky, is imperceptible to the eye; and it tarnishes copper and silver and anything that glistens, even gold" (Strabo, Geography, XVI.42)..."

"Conclusion"

"When Jude was writing his Epistle, he and his readers believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah were still burning."

For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Jude 7

John Gill's commentary of 2 Pet.2:6 says:

"and so the author of the book of Wisdom 10:7 speaking of the five cities, on which fire fell, says,"

" "of whose wickedness, even to this day, the waste land that smoketh is a testimony; and plants bearing fruit, that never come to ripeness.'' "

"Philo the Jew (b) says, that"

" "there are showed to this day in Syria monuments of this unspeakable destruction that happened; as ruins, ashes, sulphur, smoke, and a weak flame, breaking forth as of a fire burning:'' "

2 Peter 2:6 Commentaries: and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

LoveGodsWord said:
The scripture is stating that Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them were set forth as an EXAMPLE to the unrepentant wicked who would suffer God’s VENGENCE of "ETERNAL FIEW".

1) The bodies of those of Sodom do not "suffer" anything. They are dead in their graves. 2) They won't be dead eternally. God will raise them from the dead. 3) "undergoing" may be a better translation than "suffer" & 4) "specimen" is an alternate translation to "example":

As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing sexual immorality, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, undergoing the justice of fire eonian. (Jude 1:7)

LoveGodsWord said:
The fire is not an ordinary earthly fire but one coming from God the eternal one.

More assumption. God can send an earthly fire from the heavens if He wants to.

Genesis states the fire was from God. Not that God was the fire.

Do you also think the pyr aiōnion in Mt.25:41 & 18:8 is also "not an ordinary earthly fire but one coming from God the eternal one."

LoveGodsWord said:
Jude here is describing the divine nature of this fire by qualifying it as pyr aiōnion to the context of an "EXAMPLE" δεῖγμα of GOD'S "VENGENCE, JUDGEMENT or PUNISHMENT" δίκη.

Jude says no such thing. You just made that up as in a "make believe" fairy tale.

Do you also think the pyr aiōnion in Mt.25:41 & 18:8 is also "describing the divine nature of [the] fire"?

Is the lake of fire also "describing the divine nature of [the] fire"?

LoveGodsWord said:
This fire is from the presence of the ETERNAL LIVING GOD as GOD is this ETERNAL FIRE!

Jude says no such thing. You just made that up as in a "make believe" fairy tale.

Do you also think the pyr aiōnion in Mt.25:41 & 18:8 is "fire...from the presence of the ETERNAL LIVING GOD as GOD is this ETERNAL FIRE!"?

Do you also think God is the lake of fire?

LoveGodsWord said:
God here is described as a “consuming fire” ......

DEUTERONOMY 4:24, For Jehovah thy GOD IS A DEVOURING FIRE, a jealous God

HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL EXPECTATION OF JUDGMENT, AND A FIERCENESS OF FIRE WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.

HEBREWS 12:25-29 [25], See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not when they refused him that warned them on earth, much more shall not we escape who turn away from him that warneth from heaven:[26], whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven. [27], And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. [28], Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe:[29], FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.

1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9 [7], to you that are afflicted rest with us, at THE REVELATION OF THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH THE ANGELS OF HIS POWER IN FLAMING FIRE,[8], RENDERING VENGEANCE TO THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND TO THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS: [9], WHO SHALL SUFFER PUNISHMENT, EVEN ETERNAL DESTRUCTION FROM THE FACE OF THE LORD and from the glory of his might,

The "ETERNAL FIRE" is from the presence of the ETERNAL GOD.

Irrelevant. None of those passages are in the context of Jude 1:7, or even in the same book of the Bible. None speak of pyr aiōnion. And none mention Sodom.

LoveGodsWord said:
So NO dear friend the 27 translations are correct as is the Greek renderings. You have misinterpreted JUDE 1:9.

To the contrary. You have misinterpreted the passage. And it's Jude 1:7, not Jude 1:9.

LoveGodsWord said:
The point here in JUDE 1:9 and the other scriptures shown is that God’s VENGENCE is ETERNAL and his punishment is by FIRE that comes from His presence.

Nowhere does Scripture ever say, imply or suggest that "God’s VENGENCE is ETERNAL". That is simply contrary to the very nature, justice, goodness, will, desire and promises of the God of Holy Scripture, Love Omnipotent.

The reference to Jude 1:7, not Jude 1:9, concerns a temporary (not eternal) punishment on Sodom that will be reversed when Love Omnipotenat un-destroys them by making them alive again. Thereby He will destroy the destruction He brought on them. So Sodom & the other cities do not serve as an example of God's eternal vengeance or God's endless annihilation. Therefore they offer no support to the unbiblical dogma of endless annihilation.

LoveGodsWord said:
It continues until everything is destroyed. It is God’s punishment to the wicked and this punishment by fire from his presence is eternal destruction. It does not mean that the fire keeps burning after the wicked are consumed (Sodom and Gommorha are examples). It is God's fire and God is eternal. It means that "OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE AND THIS FIRE IS ETERNAL BECAUSE IT COMES FROM THE PRESENCE OF GOD and the wicked will be destroyed at His presence and will be no more. The example shown here in JUDE 1:9 is what will happen to the unrepentant wicked after the second coming when they partake of God’s VENGENCE and receive the second death *REVELATION 21:7-8.

GOD'S VENGENCE here as shown in JUDE 1:7 being eternal fire only supports what is being shared with you here dear friend. That is that the eternal fire is the punishment from the LORD to the unrepentant wicked at the second coming which is eternal. This punishment is ETERNAL as it results in the consuming and devouring *HEBREWS 10:27-31 of the unrepentant wicked until they are no more and cease to exist and their destruction is eternal just like the example of Sodom and Gomorrha which are examples of what will happen to the unrepentant wicked after the second coming.

...............

SUMMARY: Nope! The 27 bible translations and Greek LEXICONS are not in error to their use of eternal fire in JUDE 1:7. The eternal fire is from the presence of God that devours sin and God is the eternal fire that brings destruction to the unrepentant wicked after the second coming when they recieve the second death.

Hope this helps

Lots of opinions there, but evidently your translation "eternal" at Jude 1:7 is in error. As shown above.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 3, 2020

ClementofA said:
You say the "results of this destruction being eternal...is shown in the EXAMPLE of Sodom and Gomorrha as shown in JUDE 1:7"? Wrong. Have you never read the Scriptures, that Sodom's destruction will be reversed when their bodies are raised from the dead?

No God does not me... JUDE 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, SUFFERING THE VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE.

There is no scripture that says Sodoms destruction will be reversed. Unless your talking about the second resurrection of condemnation when they will be given the second death with the rest of the unrepentant wicked after the second coming.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ JUDE 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, SUFFERING THE VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE.
The "ETERNAL FIRE" here is the presence of God...

Your reposnse here...

ClementofA said:
No, it doesn't say that. All you're doing is assuming that to be true in reading it into the text.

Nonsense dear friend. You left out all my post proving this statement with the scriptures.

JUDE 1:7 is stating that Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them were set forth as an EXAMPLE to the unrepentant wicked who would suffer God’s VENGENCE of "ETERNAL FIEW". The fire is not an ordinary earthly fire but one coming from God the eternal one. Jude here is describing the divine nature of this fire by qualifying it as pyr aiōnion to the context of an "EXAMPLE" δεῖγμα of GOD'S "VENGENCE, JUDGEMENT or PUNISHMENT" δίκη. This fire is from the presence of the ETERNAL LIVING GOD as GOD is this ETERNAL FIRE!

God here is described in the bible as a “consuming fire” ......

DEUTERONOMY 4:24, For Jehovah thy GOD IS A DEVOURING FIRE, a jealous God

HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL EXPECTATION OF JUDGMENT, AND A FIERCENESS OF FIRE WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.

HEBREWS 12:25-29 [25], See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not when they refused him that warned them on earth, much more shall not we escape who turn away from him that warneth from heaven:[26], whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven. [27], And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. [28], Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe:[29], FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.

1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9 [7], to you that are afflicted rest with us, at THE REVELATION OF THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH THE ANGELS OF HIS POWER IN FLAMING FIRE,[8], RENDERING VENGEANCE TO THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND TO THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS: [9], WHO SHALL SUFFER PUNISHMENT, EVEN ETERNAL DESTRUCTION FROM THE FACE OF THE LORD and from the glory of his might,

The "ETERNAL FIRE" is from the presence of the ETERNAL GOD. Where did you think that the fire that destroyed Sodm and Gomorrha came from? It came from God's presence.

ClementofA said:
The historical record indicates the age lasting (or long lasting or eonian) fire was still burning in Jude's time. But evidently it is not still burning today and eternally, so is finite, not "eternal". Hence the translation "eternal" is wrong. Again, the historical record indicates the fire was long lasting as it was still burning long after it destroyed Sodom. Here is the historical evidence of that:

"... that fire, with which those cities, and the inhabitants of it, were consumed; which, Philo the (k) Jew says, burnt till his time, and must be burning when Jude wrote this epistle..."

"(k) De Abrahamo, p. 370."

"...Charles notes on this that “the Gehenna valley here includes the adjacent country down to the Dead Sea. A subterranean fire was believed to exist under the Gehenna valley.” "

Jude 1 Expositor's Greek Testament

"But what if Jude believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah had not been extinguished? What if he believed that the fires still burned in his day? Indeed, what if it were common knowledge that the fires of destruction still burned... An examination of the historical record would seem to indicate that this is precisely the case:

" "And in one day these populous cities became the tomb of their inhabitants, and the vast edifices of stone and timber became thin dust and ashes. And when the flames had consumed everything that was visible and that existed on the face of the earth, they proceeded to burn even the earth itself, penetrating into its lowest recesses, and destroying all the vivifying powers which existed within it so as to produce a complete and everlasting barrenness, so that it should never again be able to bear fruit, or to put forth any verdure; and to this very day it is scorched up. For the fire of the lightning is what is most difficult to extinguish, and creeps on pervading everything, and smouldering. And a most evident proof of this is to be found in what is seen to this day: for the smoke which is still emitted, and the sulphur which men dig up there, are a proof of the calamity which befell that country" (Philo, On Abraham 27)."

" "The length of this lake is five hundred and eighty furlongs, where it is extended as far as Zoar in Arabia; and its breadth is a hundred and fifty. The country of Sodom borders
upon it. It was of old a most happy land, both for the fruits it bore and the riches of its cities, although it be now all burnt up. It is related how, for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by lightning; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that Divine fire, and the traces [or shadows] of the five cities are still to be seen, as well as the ashes growing in their fruits; which fruits have a color as if they were fit to be eaten, but if you pluck them with your hands, they dissolve into smoke and ashes. And thus what is related of this land of Sodom hath these marks of credibility which our very sight affords us." (Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, IV.8.4)."

" "The fire which burns beneath the ground and the stench render the inhabitants of the neighboring country sickly and very short lived" (Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica, II.48)."

" "Lake Sirbonis [most historians agree that Strabo has confused Lake Sirbonis with the Dead Sea] is large; in fact some state that it is one thousand stadia in circuit; however, it extends parallel to the coast to a length of slightly more than two hundred stadia, is deep to the very shore, and has water so very heavy that there is no use for divers, and any person who walks into it and proceeds no farther than up to his navel is immediately raised afloat. It is full of asphalt. The asphalt is blown to the surface at irregular intervals from the midst of the deep, and with it rise bubbles, as though the water were boiling; and the surface of the lake, being convex, presents the appearance of a hill. With the asphalt there arises also much soot, which, though smoky, is imperceptible to the eye; and it tarnishes copper and silver and anything that glistens, even gold" (Strabo, Geography, XVI.42)..."

"Conclusion"

"When Jude was writing his Epistle, he and his readers believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah were still burning."
For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Jude 7

John Gill's commentary of 2 Pet.2:6 says:

"and so the author of the book of Wisdom 10:7 speaking of the five cities, on which fire fell, says,"

" "of whose wickedness, even to this day, the waste land that smoketh is a testimony; and plants bearing fruit, that never come to ripeness.'' "

"Philo the Jew (b) says, that"

" "there are showed to this day in Syria monuments of this unspeakable destruction that happened; as ruins, ashes, sulphur, smoke, and a weak flame, breaking forth as of a fire burning:'' "

2 Peter 2:6 Commentaries: and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

I am sorry I do not agree with your conclusions. I do not think your reading my posts. How long Sodom and Gomorrah burns for has never been the argument of my posts as it is not the burning that is eternal but the fire that comes from God's presence as shown in the scriptures posted earlier to you. Let me ask you again where do you think these fires that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha came from? God is a devouring fire and he is eternal *DEUTERONOMY 4:24; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 12:25-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9

to be continued...

LoveGodsWord · Jun 3, 2020

ClementofA said:
1) The bodies of those of Sodom do not "suffer" anything. They are dead in their graves. 2) They won't be dead eternally. God will raise them from the dead. 3) "undergoing" may be a better translation than "suffer" & 4) "specimen" is an alternate translation to "example":

As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing sexual immorality, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, undergoing the justice of fire eonian. (Jude 1:7)

Of course they will be raised from the dead in the second resurrection of condemnation with the rest of the unrepentant wicked after the second coming *JOHN 5:28-29 to receive the second death *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8. There punishment will the no more life but destruction from the presence of the Lord which Sodom and Gomorrah was an example *JUDE 1:7.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑The fire is not an ordinary earthly fire but one coming from God the eternal one.

Your response...

ClementofA said:
More assumption. God can send an earthly fire from the heavens if He wants to.
Genesis states the fire was from God. Not that God was the fire. Do you also think the pyr aiōnion in Mt.25:41 & 18:8 is also "not an ordinary earthly fire but one coming from God the eternal one."

There is no assumption I just posted you the scriptures saying that the eternal God is that consuming and devouring fire (HEBREWS 12:29 etc...) It is Gods' presence that brought the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God is that fire and he is eternal. You have been provided scripture. In response you provide your own opinion unsupported by scriptures.

Jude here is describing the divine nature of this fire by qualifying it as pyr aiōnion to the context of an "EXAMPLE" δεῖγμα of GOD'S "VENGENCE, JUDGEMENT or PUNISHMENT" δίκη.

Your response..

ClementofA said:
Jude says no such thing. You just made that up as in a "make believe" fairy tale.

Nonsense I only posted the Greek of JUDE 1:7 previously supported by other scriptures showing that God is a consuming fire in *DEUTERONOMY 4:24; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 12:25-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9 that you left out in micro quoting me.

ClementofA said:
Do you also think the pyr aiōnion in Mt.25:41 & 18:8 is also "describing the divine nature of [the] fire"? Is the lake of fire also "describing the divine nature of [the] fire"?

Yes I believe that the scriptures teach that God is this everlasting fire and Destruction to the wicked will come from his presence. *DEUTERONOMY 4:24; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 12:25-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9; HEBREWS 10:26-27. God is not the lake of fire. His presence will make one.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑God here is described as a “consuming fire” ......

DEUTERONOMY 4:24, For Jehovah thy GOD IS A DEVOURING FIRE, a jealous God

HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL EXPECTATION OF JUDGMENT, AND A FIERCENESS OF FIRE WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.

HEBREWS 12:25-29 [25], See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not when they refused him that warned them on earth, much more shall not we escape who turn away from him that warneth from heaven:[26], whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven. [27], And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. [28], Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe:[29], FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.

1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9 [7], to you that are afflicted rest with us, at THE REVELATION OF THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH THE ANGELS OF HIS POWER IN FLAMING FIRE,[8], RENDERING VENGEANCE TO THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND TO THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS: [9], WHO SHALL SUFFER PUNISHMENT, EVEN ETERNAL DESTRUCTION FROM THE FACE OF THE LORD and from the glory of his might,

The "ETERNAL FIRE" is from the presence of the ETERNAL GOD.

Your response...

ClementofA said:
Irrelevant. None of those passages are in the context of Jude 1:7, or even in the same book of the Bible. None speak of pyr aiōnion. And none mention Sodom.

Nonsense. They were not mean't to be in context to JUDE 1:7 they were topical scripture references to show that God is an eternal sonsuming fire and that "eternal fire" is in reference to the presence of God. They are God's Word not mine and that is what they say.

LoveGodsWord said:↑ So NO dear friend the 27 translations are correct as is the Greek renderings. You have misinterpreted JUDE 1:9.

Your response here...

ClementofA said:
To the contrary. You have misinterpreted the passage. And it's Jude 1:7, not Jude 1:9.

Nonsense. The scriptures show that you have misinterpretated the passage as does the Greek and 27 independent bible translations.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑The point here in JUDE 1:9 and the other scriptures shown is that God’s VENGENCE is ETERNAL and his punishment is by FIRE that comes from His presence.

Your response here..

ClementofA said:
Nowhere does Scripture ever say, imply or suggest that "God’s VENGENCE is ETERNAL". That is simply contrary to the very nature, justice, goodness, will, desire and promises of the God of Holy Scripture, Love Omnipotent.The reference to Jude 1:7, not Jude 1:9, concerns a temporary (not eternal) punishment on Sodom that will be reversed when Love Omnipotenat un-destroys them by making them alive again. Thereby He will destroy the destruction He brought on them. So Sodom & the other cities do not serve as an example of God's eternal vengeance or God's endless annihilation. Therefore they offer no support to the unbiblical dogma of endless annihilation.

Nonsense your just providing an unbiblical opinion..
1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.

ClementofA said:
Lots of opinions there, but evidently your translation "eternal" at Jude 1:7 is in error. As shown above.

As shown above your opinions are not biblical and simply wrong as shown by the Greek, scripture contexts and 27 independent bible translations that all collectively disagree with you.

Hope this helps

FineLinen · Jun 3, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Hope this helps

I keep searching thru the gobs of your posts, but alas, it does not help!

TLC - "Christ Triumphant", by Thomas Allin

LoveGodsWord · Jun 3, 2020

FineLinen said:
I keep searching thru the gobs of your posts, but alas, it does not help!

TLC - "Christ Triumphant", by Thomas Allin

I have not provided gobs dear Fine but only God's Word and God's Word is not my words but God's but it seems you do not believe them. It is only here you will find the living waters of life, not from the broken cisterns of the gambling lady of second chances dear Fine this is where your Gobs are found, but we must turn to the water that flow from the living Rock. This is where you will get the help you need. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us away from God and his Word which are the living waters of eternal life.

May God bless you dear friend as you seek him through his Word and turn away from the Gobs of the gambling lady of second chances..

FineLinen · Jun 3, 2020

This wonderful camaraderie is a wonderful extension of this lovely link you desired to begin. Your God is the God of chances. That is truly ducky if you subscribe to chance in Abba's Plan of the reconciliation of ta pavnte. Unfortunately for you and others who believe in chance, your delusion will evaporate as your sums evaporate at the heavenly roulette wheel.

ClementofA · Jun 3, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
No God does not me... JUDE 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, SUFFERING THE VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE.

There is no scripture that says Sodoms destruction will be reversed. Unless your talking about the second resurrection of condemnation when they will be given the second death with the rest of the unrepentant wicked after the second coming.

It's good to see that you admit Sodom's destruction will be reversed. Therefore it cannot be an example of endless annihilation. So this comment of yours is in error:

LoveGodsWord said:
The results of this destruction being eternal however is shown in the EXAMPLE of Sodom and Gomorrha as shown in JUDE 1:7

The destruction of Sodom by fire in the Old Testament will NOT be "eternal" but temporary.

The fire that destroyed Sodom is not "eternal", but has gone out. So "eternal" is an erroneous, misleading translation of the Greek word aionion in Jude 1:7. Just as it is at Mt.18:8; 25:41; Jn.3:36; 2 Thess.1:9, etc.

LoveGodsWord said:
JUDE 1:7 is stating that Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them were set forth as an EXAMPLE to the unrepentant wicked who would suffer God’s VENGENCE of "ETERNAL FIEW".

The Greek word for "set forth" there means "to be open to public view". That is, it could be seen with one's own eyes what God had done to Sodom by going there and looking, seeing the brimstone all over the ground, the smoking from the "lasting fire" (not "eternal" fire) that was still burning, etc.

"πρόκειμαι (Hom.+; prim. ‘be set before one’) defective dep.
① to be open to public view, be exposed (of corpses lying in state Aeschyl., Sept. 965 al.) of Sodom and Gomorrah πρόκεινται δεῖγμα they are exhibited as an example Jd 7
(cp. Jos., Bell. 6, 103 καλὸν ὑπόδειγμα πρόκειται)."

It was "open to public view" what Jude was talking about when he speaks of pyros aioniou (fire aeonian). One could go to Sodom and see evidence of the lasting fire he was speaking of. No one going to Sodom would see an "eternal" fire of God's presence in the heavens, but an earthly temporary physical fire that with physical brimstone physically destroyed the bodies of those in Sodom temporarily until their physical recreation from the ashes at their resurrection.

LoveGodsWord said:
The fire is not an ordinary earthly fire but one coming from God the eternal one.

If that were true, what happened to the "no ordinary earthly" fire after it burned Sodom? Do you think it went back up to God in the heavens? The historical evidence i posted and the evidence from Jude 1:7 itself i've given above refute that view.

LoveGodsWord said:
Jude here is describing the divine nature of this fire by qualifying it as pyr aiōnion to the context of an "EXAMPLE" δεῖγμα of GOD'S "VENGENCE, JUDGEMENT or PUNISHMENT" δίκη.

Jude 1:7 says people could go and see evidence of the "long lasting fire". If it had a "divine nature" to it, did it immediately ascend back up to God after destroying Sodom? But if that were true, why does Jude 1:7 say people in his time could go and see evidence of it still burning on earth?

LoveGodsWord said:
This fire is from the presence of the ETERNAL LIVING GOD as GOD is this ETERNAL FIRE!

Is the fire still burning Sodom today? Or was it temporary?

LoveGodsWord said:
God here is described in the bible as a “consuming fire” ......

DEUTERONOMY 4:24, For Jehovah thy GOD IS A DEVOURING FIRE, a jealous God

That's nice. But Jude 1:7 says nothing about God being a fire.

LoveGodsWord said:
HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL EXPECTATION OF JUDGMENT, AND A FIERCENESS OF FIRE WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.

HEBREWS 12:25-29 [25], See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not when they refused him that warned them on earth, much more shall not we escape who turn away from him that warneth from heaven:[26], whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven. [27], And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. [28], Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe:[29], FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.

1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9 [7], to you that are afflicted rest with us, at THE REVELATION OF THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH THE ANGELS OF HIS POWER IN FLAMING FIRE,[8], RENDERING VENGEANCE TO THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND TO THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS: [9], WHO SHALL SUFFER PUNISHMENT, EVEN ETERNAL DESTRUCTION FROM THE FACE OF THE LORD and from the glory of his might,

The "ETERNAL FIRE" is from the presence of the ETERNAL GOD. Where did you think that the fire that destroyed Sodm and Gomorrha came from? It came from God's presence.

Is Sodom still burning today? No. The fire was temporary, long lasting, eonian, but not "eternal". Your translators got this wrong again, just like many other passages where literal translations are more correct and honest than the deceptive ones you posted. Including 2 Thess.1:9 you quoted from an erroneous translation above.

LoveGodsWord said:
I am sorry I do not agree with your conclusions. I do not think your reading my posts. How long Sodom and Gomorrah burns for has never been the argument of my posts as it is not the burning that is eternal but the fire that come from God as shown in the scriptures posted earlier to you. Let me ask you again where do you think these fires that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha came from? God is a devouring fire and he is eternal *DEUTERONOMY 4:24; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 12:25-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9

to be continued...

God can send a physical temporary non eternal fire from the heavens if He wants to. And that's what He did in destroying Sodom temporarily with a temporary long lasting fire. Not an "eternal" fire as your translation mistranslated it.

Genesis states the fire was from God. Not that God was the fire.

You are wrong in thinking i'm not reading your posts.

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ClementofA · Jun 3, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
It is Gods' presence that brought the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Where is the Bible verse that says it "is Gods' presence that brought the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah"? Where does Scripture say God, i.e. His presence, came down to Sodom?

LoveGodsWord said:
It is Gods' presence that brought the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God is that fire and he is eternal.

You say God is that fire that brought destruction to Sodom with His presence. But the Bible says God sent the fire, not Himself or His presence. Where did this fire who is God go after He came down from heaven to destroy Sodom with His fiery presence? Why does Jude say the fire was still burning in his time & you could go see evidence of it? Is God also brimstone as well as fire, since Genesis says God sent fire and brimstone? That brimstone is visible today in Israel. Is that brimstone also "eternal" & God's presence?
Your viewpoint of Jude 1:7 seems to be getting more and more ridiculous.

LoveGodsWord said:
Nonsense I only posted the Greek of JUDE 1:7 previously supported by other scriptures showing that God is a consuming fire in *DEUTERONOMY 4:24; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 12:25-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9 that you left out in micro quoting me.

Yes I believe that the scriptures teach that God is this everlasting fire and Destruction to the wicked will come from his presence. *DEUTERONOMY 4:24; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 12:25-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9; HEBREWS 10:26-27. God is not the lake of fire. His presence will make one.

Read again my post & you will see i didn't leave those out. And they have not been proven to have any relevance to Jude 1:7. All you have is speculation, opinion, no evidence or proof to support your theory.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 3, 2020

FineLinen said:
This wonderful camaraderie is a wonderful extension of this lovely link you desired to begin. Your God is the God of chances. That is truly ducky if you subscribe to chance in Abba's Plan of the reconciliation of ta pavnte. Unfortunately for you and others who believe in chance, your delusion will evaporate as your sums evaporate at the heavenly roulette wheel.

The gambling lady of second chances is that God of Universalism dear Fine. It is not the God of the bible. The God of the bible does not teach that we can gamble our life away in second chances after the second coming. The unrepentant wicked sadly reject the free gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of God's grace and make a mockery of the cross of God's dear son. It is only those who believe in the gambling ladies lies of second chances who that turn away from God's Word that are deluded because they are drunk by drinking the polluted waters of her broken cisterns (teachings of men). Her lies will be exposed after the second coming and how sad will those be who turned away from God and trusted in her? There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. They have found out only too late they have built their house on sifting sand. Then, when the storms came and blew their house over great was the fall thereof. JESUS (the Word) came knocking at the door but they would not let him in. They should have built their house on the living rock but did not listen. Time to leave the teachings of the gambling lady of second chances dear Fine. There is no second chances for the unrepentant wicked at the second coming but only a second death in the lake of fire according to the God of the bible.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 3, 2020

LoveGodsWord said: ↑No God does not me... JUDE 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, SUFFERING THE VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE. There is no scripture that says Sodoms destruction will be reversed. Unless your talking about the second resurrection of condemnation when they will be given the second death with the rest of the unrepentant wicked after the second coming.

Your response here...

ClementofA said:
It's good to see that you admit Sodom's destruction will be reversed. Therefore it cannot be an example of endless annihilation. So this comment of yours is in error:

Hmm your post makes no sense to what you are responding to dear friend and says no such thing. Perhaps you need to re-read it.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑The results of this destruction being eternal however is shown in the EXAMPLE of Sodom and Gomorrha as shown in JUDE 1:7

Your response here...

ClementofA said:
The destruction of Sodom by fire in the Old Testament will NOT be "eternal" but temporary. The fire that destroyed Sodom is not "eternal", but has gone out. So "eternal" is an erroneous, misleading translation of the Greek word aionion in Jude 1:7. Just as it is at Mt.18:8; 25:41; Jn.3:36; 2 Thess.1:9, etc.

The scriptures you have provided here only support what I am sharing with you. You are confused dear friend. There is no life in the "second death" of the unrepentant wicked from the lake of fire. It is called the "second death" because the unrepentant wicked do not have eternal life. This is what God says not me...

1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ JUDE 1:7 is stating that Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them were set forth as an EXAMPLE to the unrepentant wicked who would suffer God’s VENGENCE of "ETERNAL FIEW".

Your response here..

ClementofA said:
The Greek word for "set forth" there means "to be open to public view". That is, it could be seen with one's own eyes what God had done to Sodom by going there and looking, seeing the brimstone all over the ground, the smoking from the "lasting fire" (not "eternal" fire) that was still burning, etc.

"πρόκειμαι (Hom.+; prim. ‘be set before one’) defective dep.
① to be open to public view, be exposed (of corpses lying in state Aeschyl., Sept. 965 al.) of Sodom and Gomorrah πρόκεινται δεῖγμα they are exhibited as an example Jd 7
(cp. Jos., Bell. 6, 103 καλὸν ὑπόδειγμα πρόκειται)."

It was "open to public view" what Jude was talking about when he speaks of pyros aioniou (fire aeonian). One could go to Sodom and see evidence of the lasting fire he was speaking of. No one going to Sodom would see an "eternal" fire of God's presence in the heavens, but an earthly temporary physical fire that with physical brimstone physically destroyed the bodies of those in Sodom temporarily until their physical recreation from the ashes at their resurrection.

JUDE 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, SUFFERING THE VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE.

BDAG - "example"
δεῖγμα, ατος, τό (s. two next entries; Eur., X., Pla. et al.; ins, pap, Philo, Joseph., loanw. in rabb.).
① indicator, proof τινός of someth. (Eur., Supp. 354; Menand., Georg. Fgm. 3, 4 J.; Cass. Dio 55, 7, 4; Jos., Ant. 8, 34; pap) Dg 4:5; 7:9.
② example (δεῖγμα καὶ τύπον Theoph. Ant. II 15 [p. 138, 7]) παρέχειν (Dionys. Hal., Rhet. 6, 5 p. 282, 19 R. τ. ἀρετῆς; Philostrat., Vi. Apoll. 6, 12 p. 224, 23) give an example Dg 3:3; προκεῖσθαι δ. stand as an ex. Jd 7 (sample ELee, NTS 8, ’61/62, 167). Cp. εἰς τὸ δεῖγμα 2 Pt 2:6 P72.—Schmidt, Syn. III 416f. DELG s.v. δείκνυμι. M-M.

Sorry I do not believe your application of "example" meaning that the fires are still going is correct. I believe the only application of "example" here is to the "DESTRUCTION" and annihilation of the wicked people of Sodom and Gomorrha which fits the scripture contexts...

"SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, SUFFERING THE VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE".

The "example" here is the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha from God's eternal fire not the eternal fire which is no more. This view is consistent and aligns with the other scriptures already provided in *DEUTERONOMY 4:24 ; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 12:25-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9; JOHN 3:36; JOHN 5:28-29 ; REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑The fire is not an ordinary earthly fire but one coming from God the eternal one.

Your response here...

ClementofA said:
If that were true, what happened to the "no ordinary earthly" fire after it burned Sodom? Do you think it went back up to God in the heavens? The historical evidence i posted and the evidence from Jude 1:7 itself i've given above refute that view.

It was removed when God's presence was removed. According to the scriptures tha fire was Gods' eternal fire that came from God as the scriptures teach our God is a consuming fire DEUTERONOMY 4:24 ; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 12:25-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9 to the unrepentant wicked. This is the example being given to us through the scriptures in the DESTRUCTION of Sodom and Gomorrha in JUDE 1:7.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Jude here is describing the divine nature of this fire by qualifying it as pyr aiōnion to the context of an "EXAMPLE" δεῖγμα of GOD'S "VENGENCE, JUDGEMENT or PUNISHMENT" δίκη.

Your response here...

ClementofA said:
Jude 1:7 says people could go and see evidence of the "long lasting fire". If it had a "divine nature" to it, did it immediately ascend back up to God after destroying Sodom? But if that were true, why does Jude 1:7 say people in his time could go and see evidence of it still burning on earth?

Goodness. JUDE 1:7 says no such thing. You can go to visit Sodom and Gomorrha today and see the evidence of the destruction from the presence of God's eternal fire.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑This fire is from the presence of the ETERNAL LIVING GOD as GOD is this ETERNAL FIRE!

Your response...

ClementofA said:
Is the fire still burning Sodom today? Or was it temporary?

No you cannot see God's eternal fire there now as God's presence is no longer there. This is my point.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ God here is described in the bible as a “consuming fire” ......
DEUTERONOMY 4:24, For Jehovah thy GOD IS A DEVOURING FIRE, a jealous God

Your response...

ClementofA said:
That's nice. But Jude 1:7 says nothing about God being a fire.

Sure it does. JUDE was referring to God as the "eternal fire" as is the scripture your ignoring above and the other ones already provided in the same post that say the same thing.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL EXPECTATION OF JUDGMENT, AND A FIERCENESS OF FIRE WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.

HEBREWS 12:25-29 [25], See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not when they refused him that warned them on earth, much more shall not we escape who turn away from him that warneth from heaven:[26], whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven. [27], And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. [28], Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe:[29], FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.

1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9 [7], to you that are afflicted rest with us, at THE REVELATION OF THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH THE ANGELS OF HIS POWER IN FLAMING FIRE,[8], RENDERING VENGEANCE TO THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND TO THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS: [9], WHO SHALL SUFFER PUNISHMENT, EVEN ETERNAL DESTRUCTION FROM THE FACE OF THE LORD and from the glory of his might,

The "ETERNAL FIRE" is from the presence of the ETERNAL GOD. Where did you think that the fire that destroyed Sodm and Gomorrha came from? It came from God's presence.

Your response here...

ClementofA said:
Is Sodom still burning today? No. The fire was temporary, long lasting, eonian, but not "eternal". Your translators got this wrong again, just like many other passages where literal translations are more correct and honest than the deceptive ones you posted. Including 2 Thess.1:9 you quoted from an erroneous translation above.

No your making my point for me again. You cannot see God's eternal fire now as God's presence is no longer there. This is my point.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ I am sorry I do not agree with your conclusions. I do not think your reading my posts. How long Sodom and Gomorrah burns for has never been the argument of my posts as it is not the burning that is eternal but the fire that come from God as shown in the scriptures posted earlier to you. Let me ask you again where do you think these fires that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha came from? God is a devouring fire and he is eternal *DEUTERONOMY 4:24 ; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 12:25-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9

Your response here...

ClementofA said:
God can send a physical temporary non eternal fire from the heavens if He wants to. And that's what He did in destroying Sodom temporarily with a temporary long lasting fire. Not an "eternal" fire as your translation mistranslated it.

No that is not what the bible teaches as shown above and is not suported by the scriptures.

ClementofA said:
Genesis states the fire was from God. Not that God was the fire. You are wrong in thinking i'm not reading your posts.

The scriptures not me says God is a consuming fire to the wicked. *DEUTERONOMY 4:24 ; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 12:25-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9. Of course the fire was from God. He is eternal and so is His fire. Unlike earlier in this thread I can see you are recently since JUDE 1:7 responding to the content of my post that is why I am continuing a discussion with you. Thanks this is much better right?

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 3, 2020

ClementofA said:
Where is the Bible verse that says it "is Gods' presence that brought the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah"? Where does Scripture say God, i.e. His presence, came down to Sodom?

It is Gods' presence that brought the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The scriptures were posted earlier...

DEUTERONOMY 4:24, For Jehovah thy GOD IS A DEVOURING FIRE, a jealous God
HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL EXPECTATION OF JUDGMENT, AND A FIERCENESS OF FIRE WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.

HEBREWS 12:25-29 [25], See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not when they refused him that warned them on earth, much more shall not we escape who turn away from him that warneth from heaven:[26], whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven. [27], And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. [28], Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe:[29], FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.

1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9 [7], to you that are afflicted rest with us, at THE REVELATION OF THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH THE ANGELS OF HIS POWER IN FLAMING FIRE,[8], RENDERING VENGEANCE TO THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND TO THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS: [9], WHO SHALL SUFFER PUNISHMENT, EVEN ETERNAL DESTRUCTION FROM THE FACE OF THE LORD and from the glory of his might,

The "ETERNAL FIRE" is from the presence of the ETERNAL GOD. Where did you think that the fire that destroyed Sodm and Gomorrha came from? It came from God's presence.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ It is Gods' presence that brought the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God is that fire and he is eternal.

Your response here...

ClementofA said:
You say God is that fire that brought destruction to Sodom with His presence. But the Bible says God sent the fire, not Himself or His presence. Where did this fire who is God go after He came down from heaven to destroy Sodom with His fiery presence? Why does Jude say the fire was still burning in his time & you could go see evidence of it? Is God also brimstone as well as fire, since Genesis says God sent fire and brimstone? That brimstone is visible today in Israel. Is that brimstone also "eternal" & God's presence? Your viewpoint of Jude 1:7 seems to be getting more and more ridiculous.

The fire from God is the eternal fire from God's presence as shown in the scriptures above.
Fire and brimstone (Hebrew: גׇּפְרִ֣ית וָאֵ֑שׁ‎ gafrit va’eish, Ancient Greek: πυρὸς καὶ θείου) is an idiomatic expression referring to God's wrath found in both the Hebrew Bible and the Christian New Testament. In the Bible, it often appears in reference to the fate of the unfaithful. Brimstone, an archaic term synonymous with sulfur,[1] evokes the acrid odor of sulphur dioxide given off by lightning strikes.[2] Lightning was understood as divine punishment by many ancient religions; the association of sulfur with divine retribution is common in the Bible (Wiki).

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Nonsense I only posted the Greek of JUDE 1:7 previously supported by other scriptures showing that God is a consuming fire in *DEUTERONOMY 4:24 ; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 12:25-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9 that you left out in micro quoting me. Yes I believe that the scriptures teach that God is this everlasting fire and Destruction to the wicked will come from his presence. *DEUTERONOMY 4:24 ; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 12:25-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9; HEBREWS 10:26-27. God is not the lake of fire. His presence will make one.

Your response here...

ClementofA said:
Read again my post & you will see i didn't leave those out. And they have not been proven to have any relevance to Jude 1:7. All you have is speculation, opinion, no evidence or proof to support your theory.

Sorry I did read your post carefully the first time and have responded with scripture section by section showing why and I disagree with you. The scripture evidence provided to you are Gods' Word not mine. You have only provided your opinion and the opinion of others outside of the bible over the scriptures that are your words and the words of others and not God's. Thanks for sharing your view though.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

ClementofA · Jun 4, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Fire and brimstone (Hebrew: גׇּפְרִ֣ית וָאֵ֑שׁ‎ gafrit va’eish, Ancient Greek: πυρὸς καὶ θείου) is an idiomatic expression referring to God's wrath found in both the Hebrew Bible and the Christian New Testament. In the Bible, it often appears in reference to the fate of the unfaithful. Brimstone, an archaic term synonymous with sulfur,[1] evokes the acrid odor of sulphur dioxide given off by lightning strikes.[2] Lightning was understood as divine punishment by many ancient religions; the association of sulfur with divine retribution is common in the Bible (Wiki).

Did you notice the references to "lightning" in the historical accounts posted earlier:

The historical record indicates the age lasting (or long lasting or eonian) fire was still burning in Jude's time. But evidently it is not still burning today and eternally, so is finite, not "eternal". Hence the translation "eternal" is wrong. Again, the historical record indicates the fire was long lasting as it was still burning long after it destroyed Sodom. Here is the historical evidence of that:

"... that fire, with which those cities, and the inhabitants of it, were consumed; which, Philo the (k) Jew says, burnt till his time, and must be burning when Jude wrote this epistle..."

"(k) De Abrahamo, p. 370."

"...Charles notes on this that “the Gehenna valley here includes the adjacent country down to the Dead Sea. A subterranean fire was believed to exist under the Gehenna valley.” "

Jude 1 Expositor's Greek Testament

"But what if Jude believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah had not been extinguished? What if he believed that the fires still burned in his day? Indeed, what if it were common knowledge that the fires of destruction still burned... An examination of the historical record would seem to indicate that this is precisely the case:

" "And in one day these populous cities became the tomb of their inhabitants, and the vast edifices of stone and timber became thin dust and ashes. And when the flames had consumed everything that was visible and that existed on the face of the earth, they proceeded to burn even the earth itself, penetrating into its lowest recesses, and destroying all the vivifying powers which existed within it so as to produce a complete and everlasting barrenness, so that it should never again be able to bear fruit, or to put forth any verdure; and to this very day it is scorched up. For the fire of the lightning is what is most difficult to extinguish, and creeps on pervading everything, and smouldering. And a most evident proof of this is to be found in what is seen to this day: for the smoke which is still emitted, and the sulphur which men dig up there, are a proof of the calamity which befell that country" (Philo, On Abraham 27)."

" "The length of this lake is five hundred and eighty furlongs, where it is extended as far as Zoar in Arabia; and its breadth is a hundred and fifty. The country of Sodom borders
upon it. It was of old a most happy land, both for the fruits it bore and the riches of its cities, although it be now all burnt up. It is related how, for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by lightning; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that Divine fire, and the traces [or shadows] of the five cities are still to be seen, as well as the ashes growing in their fruits; which fruits have a color as if they were fit to be eaten, but if you pluck them with your hands, they dissolve into smoke and ashes. And thus what is related of this land of Sodom hath these marks of credibility which our very sight affords us." (Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, IV.8.4)."

" "The fire which burns beneath the ground and the stench render the inhabitants of the neighboring country sickly and very short lived" (Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica, II.48)."

" "Lake Sirbonis [most historians agree that Strabo has confused Lake Sirbonis with the Dead Sea] is large; in fact some state that it is one thousand stadia in circuit; however, it extends parallel to the coast to a length of slightly more than two hundred stadia, is deep to the very shore, and has water so very heavy that there is no use for divers, and any person who walks into it and proceeds no farther than up to his navel is immediately raised afloat. It is full of asphalt. The asphalt is blown to the surface at irregular intervals from the midst of the deep, and with it rise bubbles, as though the water were boiling; and the surface of the lake, being convex, presents the appearance of a hill. With the asphalt there arises also much soot, which, though smoky, is imperceptible to the eye; and it tarnishes copper and silver and anything that glistens, even gold" (Strabo, Geography, XVI.42)..."

"Conclusion"

"When Jude was writing his Epistle, he and his readers believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah were still burning."

For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Jude 7

John Gill's commentary of 2 Pet.2:6 says:

"and so the author of the book of Wisdom 10:7 speaking of the five cities, on which fire fell, says,"

" "of whose wickedness, even to this day, the waste land that smoketh is a testimony; and plants bearing fruit, that never come to ripeness.'' "

"Philo the Jew (b) says, that"

" "there are showed to this day in Syria monuments of this unspeakable destruction that happened; as ruins, ashes, sulphur, smoke, and a weak flame, breaking forth as of a fire burning:'' "

2 Peter 2:6 Commentaries: and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

ClementofA · Jun 4, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
REVELATION 22:11-12 which shows that God's judgement is completed and his proclaimation is made "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be".

LoveGodsWord said:
IS OUR SALVATION DETERMINED BEFORE THE 2ND COMING OR AFTER?

REVELATION 22:11-12 [11], He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.[12], And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Our salvation is determined before the 2nd coming...

Nothing there states salvation is - only - determined before the second coming. Nothing there states there is no salvation after the second coming.

If that were the case, what is the determination re salvation for aborted babies, children, teens who never heard the gospel? Saved or annihilated forever? Did they accept Christ before the second coming? Can those who died without being born again enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3)?

LoveGodsWord said:
There is no more chances at the second coming from the gambling lady of second chances once JESUS returns every case is decided and his reward is with him when the announcement is made before JESUS returns; He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be *REVELATION 22:11-12.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Be filthy...still...but not forever.

"The meaning is, Let men continue in these various characters, if they will. I come quickly with the rewards that they will respectively deserve. A similar mode of expression is adopted in Ecclesiastes 11:9."

Revelation 22:11 -

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

While we're on the subject, here's a few cross references which show similarities to Rev.22:11:

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Hosea 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
Mt.15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says.' Whoever will listen let him listen, and whoever will refuse let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.
Rev.22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And the one hearing, let him say, “Come!” And the one thirsting let him come; the one desiring, let him take freely the water of life.

Is there the slightest hint of endless punishment in any of those verses or Rev.22:11? No.

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

And, now, for another commentary on Revelation 22:11:

"Is it possible that it means: “ready or not, here i come to bring judgement, whatever state I find you in?” Maybe I am stretching here, I fear."

"I am quite sure that the subsequent warning/promise means this (i.e. the common promise of YHWH, this time as Jesus, coming to reward and/or punish those according to their works.) So I have no problem with this preceding verse also having that meaning (or at least topically connecting to that meaning) as well."

Filthy Still??

And for yet another interpretation:

I expressed my opinion that this verse is supposed to be an indication of intransigence and perseverence in the final days of the tribulation. It is notably sandwiched between two very strong indications that those who remain “filthy” will not only keep being exhorted to come in, but that (as with the kings of the earth) they will actually do so.

I expect the statement is meant as a rhetorical counter-comparison, not as a command. You all go on being like that. But we will go on being like this; and here is what that means:
yes, there is punishment on the way, but we will never give up on loving you and encouraging you to wash and come home.

I would be more worried about it, if it wasn’t only smack between two examples of continuing and successful evangelism, but also wasn’t clarified by a massive amount of scriptural data otherwise.

It would seem that an annihilationist would have to construe part or all of this chapter to mean it takes place in the present day (for which there is some indication, since after
all evangelism is a present-day activity at least. ) The filthy can hardly go on being unjust after the lake of fire judgment if they are annihilated out of existence after
all! Fortunately, it is not my problem to try to explain how this verse must occur within continuity of at least one or maybe two calls to hopeful present-day evangelism while also
appearing to contravene any hope of that evangelism being successful flatly in the face of the surrounding data.

I expect a Calvinist would point to this as being the distinction between the elect and the non-elect, the latter of whom God never intended to save and so who are confirmed in their
sins forever by God, rendering the question of annihilation moot. But it seems an awful jump to have “the filthy” bluntly condemned in hopelessness in comparison with the “righteous”
who keep on being righteous; and then to have to explain why shortly afterward the Spirit and the Bride and the one who hears them (i.e. the righteous who are busy being righteous,
unlike the ones who are still loving and fondling their sinning) are exhorting with Jesus for the “filthy” to slake their thirst and wash their robes in the river of the water of life
coming out of the New Jerusalem, so that the “filthy” can obtain permission to enter and eat of the tree of life. Again, fortunately, not my problem.

It is a tough verse to read with the context in any case. Which to me signals that the meaning is probably not supposed to be straightforward, but rather some kind of figure of speech; thus my opinion about it being a counter-point comparison, introducing the distinction that soon follows afterward. (Which is literally the final specific revelation of the book.) [/
quote]

Filthy Still??

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · Jun 4, 2020

JacksBratt said:
Great post..

I would ask them the same question in this thread as I did in another just like this.

Why do we "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" if everyone is going to be in heaven anyway?

Why evangelize?
Why give testimony?
Why witness to people?
Why let our lives shine like Christ?
Why pray for our lost loved ones?
Why even have churches and pastors and missionaries?

Why.... we're all just going to all be there in the end anyway....

Is fear, i.e. eternal torture avoidance, the reason you would do them?

Or is it because you love God?

If you believed in universalism would turn your back on Jesus for sin?

Would you be okay with going to "hell" until you get saved?

That would be quite foolish, wouldn't it.

After all, Jesus warns you not to take that path.

**************************************************

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

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https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

ClementofA · Jun 4, 2020

Original Happy Camper said:
Malachi 4 King James Version (KJV)
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

verse three does not support coming out of the lake of fire

Re Mal. 4 do you think this is talking about the LOF:

3"You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts.

1Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Burned up does not mean endlessly annihilated out of existence. People are cremated, i.e. burned up, every day. Guess what? Everyone of them will be resurrected back to life. They were "burned up" but not annihilated out of existence forever. Therefore the two words "burned up" do not support your theory. You are wrong in saying they mean anyone is endlessly annihilated.

Second death. You've provided no evidence "second death" means endlessly annihilated. How do you explain those alive in the lake of fire? Alive is not dead.

The reference to "left neither root nor branch" (Mal.4) is figurative language. Human beings aren't trees. Malachi 4 speaks of what will happen on a "day", not in eternity. The wicked will be ashes under the feet of the righteous. This passage, like the others, does not deny a future resurrection to these wicked, nor affirm them being endlessly annihilated, so does not support your theory. You have to read that into the context by assumption and add your theory to the words of God in Malachi 4. Because it isn't there.

Ashes refer to physical bodies, not bodyless souls. So that their bodies in the LOF become ashes doesn't deal with the matter of whether or not a soul can repent in the LOF. Any references to unbelievers & ashes (i.e. being cremated) are irrelevant to the topic of their final destiny if one believes that the soul lives on after the death of the body.

Malachi 1:11 ESV

For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.

Malachi 3:2-4 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. "He will sit as a smelter
and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. "Then the
offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

________________________________________

Turn or burn forever. That's sure to help people "love" God.

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

ClementofA · Jun 4, 2020

JacksBratt said:
Every knee will bow..

Every tounge will confess..

Then.. some will go to outer darkness and some into eternal paradise.

Every convicted person stands in a courtroom and faces their judge and or jury.. They will not deny the power or verdict of that judge or jury.. some will be found guilty.. some found innocent.

Either way.. they all "bow" to the power and finality of that judge and jury...

Same with eternal judgement.. Every human soul that was created.. will kneel at the feet of Christ. All in shame.
Some covered with the blood of Christ and seen as righteous.
Many found wanting and found guilty.
These are off to eternal damnation.

"Vincent's Word Studies
At the name of Jesus (ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι)
Rev., better, in the name. The name means here the personal name; but as including all that is involved in the name. See on Matthew 28:19. Hence the salutation is not at the name of Jesus, as by bowing when the name is uttered, but, as Ellicott rightly says: "the spiritual sphere, the holy element as it were, in which every prayer is to be offered and every knee to bow." Compare Ephesians 5:20." Philippians 2 Commentary - Vincent's Word Studies

"In the NT κάμπτω is found only in combination with γόνυ (γόνατα), and in this connection it is used trans. with γόνυ (γόνατα) as obj. (R. 11:4; Eph. 3:14) and instrans. with γόνυ as subj. (R. 14:11; Phil.2:10)."

"κάμπτειν γόνυ (γόνατα) is the gesture of full inner submission in worship before the one whom we bow the knee. Thus in R. 14:11 bowing the knee is linked with confession within the context of a judgement scene, and in Phil. 2:10 it again accompanies confession with reference to the worship of the exalted Kyrios Jesus by the cosmos. At R. 11:4 κάμπτειν γόνυ τῇ Βάαλ signifies surrender to Baal, and at Eph. 3:14...is a solemn description of the attitude of submission to God in prayer" (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.3, p.594-595, Heinrich Schlier, ed. Kittel., Eerdmans, 1978).

"2:10-11 These final verses of the christologial hymn describe the universal homage and acclamation that will be accorded the one whose name ranks above all others...the adoration is in honour of the exalted Christ...the parallel words of v.11b describe explicitly the act of reverence as paid directly to the Son and 'to the glory of God the Father'. It is clear that Jesus is the one being worshipped."

"...'Every knee shall bow'. The universal scope of the adoration offered to Jesus as Lord is described by the words 'every knee shall bow' and 'every tongue confess'. (v.11)...The bending of the knee was an expression denoting great reverence and submission in the OT, especially marking the humble approach of the worshipper who felt his need so keenly that he could not stand upright before God. While the usual position in prayer was that of standing (e.g., Je. 18:20; 1 Ki. 18:15; 17:1, etc), in times of special need or extremity the worshipper fell on his knees (so Ez. 9:5, 15). Likewise in the Gospels people stand to pray (Lk.18:11, 13) and Jesus assumes His disciples will stand (cf. Mt.6:5); but when there is an acute sense of need or urgent entreaty, the supplicant falls down before God. So Jesus in Gethsemane bows down in lowly submission and distress (Mt.26:9; Mk.14:35; Lk.22:41). The bowing of the knee here at Phil. 2:10, as Martin puts it, is 'a mark of extreme abasement and submission (as in Eph. iii.14) and denotes that the universal homage marks the subjection of those who kneel to the lordship of Christ'.47"

"...Is. 45:22-25...The Lord...swears solemnly by his own life that 'every knee will bow before me; by me every tongue will swear'...the words of v.23, which are reiterated in Phil. 2:10-11, express the notion of the universal and final homage to Yahweh.

"...By invoking Is.45:23 as its proof-text the author of the hymn and the...community in which the hymn originated live 'in confident expectation that this salvation will soon be universally visible'.55"

(The New International Greek Testament Commentary (NIGTC): The Epistle to the Phillipians, Peter T. Obrien, 1991, p.233ff)

"bend the knee in worship, LXX Is.45.23, etc.":

https://translate.academic.ru/κάμπτω/el/xx/
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, κάμπτω

"No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."
Is Hell Eternal? Or Will God's Plan Fail? Ch. 8 The Neglected Age

"Talbot argues Paul anticipated this exhaustive reconciliation because of the verb he chose: confess. According to Talbot, “he chose a verb that throughout the Septuagint implies not only confession, but the offer of praise and thanksgiving as well.”3 He goes on to suggest that, while a king or queen could force a subject to bow against their will, praise and thanksgiving can only come from the heart:

" “either those who bow before Jesus Christ and declare openly that he is Lord do so sincerely and by their own choice or they do not. If they do this sincerely and by their own choice, then there can be but one reason: They too have been reconciled to God.4” "

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth inrighteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

"Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:

The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.

(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

Love will conquer all.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

LoveGodsWord · Jun 4, 2020

ClementofA said:
Did you notice the references to "lightning" in the historical accounts posted earlier:

The historical record indicates the age lasting (or long lasting or eonian) fire was still burning in Jude's time. But evidently it is not still burning today and eternally, so is finite, not "eternal". Hence the translation "eternal" is wrong. Again, the historical record indicates the fire was long lasting as it was still burning long after it destroyed Sodom. Here is the historical evidence of that:

"... that fire, with which those cities, and the inhabitants of it, were consumed; which, Philo the (k) Jew says, burnt till his time, and must be burning when Jude wrote this epistle..."

"(k) De Abrahamo, p. 370."

"...Charles notes on this that “the Gehenna valley here includes the adjacent country down to the Dead Sea. A subterranean fire was believed to exist under the Gehenna valley.” "

Jude 1 Expositor's Greek Testament

"But what if Jude believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah had not been extinguished? What if he believed that the fires still burned in his day? Indeed, what if it were common knowledge that the fires of destruction still burned... An examination of the historical record would seem to indicate that this is precisely the case:

" "And in one day these populous cities became the tomb of their inhabitants, and the vast edifices of stone and timber became thin dust and ashes. And when the flames had consumed everything that was visible and that existed on the face of the earth, they proceeded to burn even the earth itself, penetrating into its lowest recesses, and destroying all the vivifying powers which existed within it so as to produce a complete and everlasting barrenness, so that it should never again be able to bear fruit, or to put forth any verdure; and to this very day it is scorched up. For the fire of the lightning is what is most difficult to extinguish, and creeps on pervading everything, and smouldering. And a most evident proof of this is to be found in what is seen to this day: for the smoke which is still emitted, and the sulphur which men dig up there, are a proof of the calamity which befell that country" (Philo, On Abraham 27)."

" "The length of this lake is five hundred and eighty furlongs, where it is extended as far as Zoar in Arabia; and its breadth is a hundred and fifty. The country of Sodom borders
upon it. It was of old a most happy land, both for the fruits it bore and the riches of its cities, although it be now all burnt up. It is related how, for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by lightning; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that Divine fire, and the traces [or shadows] of the five cities are still to be seen, as well as the ashes growing in their fruits; which fruits have a color as if they were fit to be eaten, but if you pluck them with your hands, they dissolve into smoke and ashes. And thus what is related of this land of Sodom hath these marks of credibility which our very sight affords us." (Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, IV.8.4)."

" "The fire which burns beneath the ground and the stench render the inhabitants of the neighboring country sickly and very short lived" (Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica, II.48)."

" "Lake Sirbonis [most historians agree that Strabo has confused Lake Sirbonis with the Dead Sea] is large; in fact some state that it is one thousand stadia in circuit; however, it extends parallel to the coast to a length of slightly more than two hundred stadia, is deep to the very shore, and has water so very heavy that there is no use for divers, and any person who walks into it and proceeds no farther than up to his navel is immediately raised afloat. It is full of asphalt. The asphalt is blown to the surface at irregular intervals from the midst of the deep, and with it rise bubbles, as though the water were boiling; and the surface of the lake, being convex, presents the appearance of a hill. With the asphalt there arises also much soot, which, though smoky, is imperceptible to the eye; and it tarnishes copper and silver and anything that glistens, even gold" (Strabo, Geography, XVI.42)..."

"Conclusion"

"When Jude was writing his Epistle, he and his readers believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah were still burning."

For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Jude 7

John Gill's commentary of 2 Pet.2:6 says:

"and so the author of the book of Wisdom 10:7 speaking of the five cities, on which fire fell, says,"

" "of whose wickedness, even to this day, the waste land that smoketh is a testimony; and plants bearing fruit, that never come to ripeness.'' "

"Philo the Jew (b) says, that"

" "there are showed to this day in Syria monuments of this unspeakable destruction that happened; as ruins, ashes, sulphur, smoke, and a weak flame, breaking forth as of a fire burning:'' "

2 Peter 2:6 Commentaries: and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

I am sorry dear friend but I disagree with your conclusions and have shown why through the scriptures in my earlier posts to you. None of those people were present in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha so their comments are purely speculation. The eternal fire is in reference to the fire from the presence of God not the everlasting burning when there is nothing left to burn according to the scriptures (addressed in the earlier posts). The scriptures not me says God is a consuming fire to the wicked. *DEUTERONOMY 4:24 ; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 12:25-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9. Of course the fire was from God. He is eternal and so is His fire.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 4, 2020

ClementofA said:
Nothing there states salvation is - only - determined before the second coming. Nothing there states there is no salvation after the second coming.

If that were the case, what is the determination re salvation for aborted babies, children, teens who never heard the gospel? Saved or annihilated forever? Did they accept Christ before the second coming? Can those who died without being born again enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3)?

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Be filthy...still...but not forever.

"The meaning is, Let men continue in these various characters, if they will. I come quickly with the rewards that they will respectively deserve. A similar mode of expression is adopted in Ecclesiastes 11:9."

Revelation 22:11 -

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

While we're on the subject, here's a few cross references which show similarities to Rev.22:11:

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Hosea 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
Mt.15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says.' Whoever will listen let him listen, and whoever will refuse let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.
Rev.22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And the one hearing, let him say, “Come!” And the one thirsting let him come; the one desiring, let him take freely the water of life.

Is there the slightest hint of endless punishment in any of those verses or Rev.22:11? No.

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

And, now, for another commentary on Revelation 22:11:

"Is it possible that it means: “ready or not, here i come to bring judgement, whatever state I find you in?” Maybe I am stretching here, I fear."

"I am quite sure that the subsequent warning/promise means this (i.e. the common promise of YHWH, this time as Jesus, coming to reward and/or punish those according to their works.) So I have no problem with this preceding verse also having that meaning (or at least topically connecting to that meaning) as well."

Filthy Still??

And for yet another interpretation:

Actually all of this is more repitition already answered in previous posts. You have gone back to repeating your posts again without addressing the content of my posts again in order to spam this thread. Goodness Clemont and I thought I was just starting for the first time to have a discussion with you. It seems our discussion is bothering you now.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 4, 2020

ClementofA said:
Nothing there states salvation is - only - determined before the second coming. Nothing there states there is no salvation after the second coming.

If that were the case, what is the determination re salvation for aborted babies, children, teens who never heard the gospel? Saved or annihilated forever? Did they accept Christ before the second coming? Can those who died without being born again enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3)?

Nonsense. You have already been provided the scriptures showing that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed at the second death after the second coming here....

1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.

You have no scripture to show that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. God's Word says the wicked are destroyed, do not receive life, are not written in the Lambs book of life and devoured and burned up like the wicked of Sodom and Gomorrha. What else do you want as proof? For me only God's Word is true and UNIVERSALISM has none for their claims that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming of JESUS when the bible says they will be destroyed in the second death.

There is no salvation for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. The teachings of UNIVERSALISM are not biblical.

Hope this helps.

FineLinen · Jun 4, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
The teachings of UNIVERSALISM are not biblical.

Hope this helps.

Of course they are not. Why do these silly sillies believe our God actually completes what He began?

“FOR THE SON OF MAN IS COME TO SEEK AND TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST.” (Luke 19:10)

From the Master’s own parables & His essential nature, so long as anything is lost, Jesus Christ will go on seeking and saving; for He is always the same? (Heb. 13:8). “The lost” are His charge, and not some of the lost!

Or are we to read this verse ? ?

He came to save the lost but those in the fullest sense lost He will never save?

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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