THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

LoveGodsWord · Jun 2, 2020

ClementofA said:
Those same 27 were - WRONG - when they translate aionios as "eternal" at Jude 1:7, so why should you think they got it right anywhere else? Is Sodom still burning today and forever, eternally, or did the fire go out long ago & was finite and temporary, not eternal?

All of the versions listed here saying "eternal" - WRONG!:

Jude 1:7 In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.

Compare other versions w/o "eternal", like YLT, Rotherham, Weymouth, CLV, etc:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian.(CLV)

7 As, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having in like manner to these given themselves over to fornication, and gone away after other kind of flesh, lie exposed as an example, a penalty of age-abiding fire, undergoing. (Ro)

7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before—an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering. (YLT)

Jude Judas, a slave of Jesus Christ, yet a brother of James, to those who are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept by Jesus Christ:"

Oh goodness what nonsense. It is you who are WRONG dear friend, not the 27 bible translations and the BDAG LEXICON and all of their Greek scholars that disagreed with you.

Why are you quoting JUDE 1:7 when we were discussing 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9: I am sorry dear friend but it is you who is wrong not the 27 bible translations and the Greek scholars who wrote them or BDAG. Why don't you simply accept correction and be blessed and learn from your mistakes?

You were shown the Koine Greek word meanings as well as the application to context. Then 27 independent bible translations with each having their own groups of independant Greek scholars all saying the exact same thing and you come along with nothing and no proof saying they are all got it wrong?

You were proven wrong erlier in your reading of a Greek Lexicon two times in JOHN 3:36 and in 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 showing all your earlier claims being false and you were not reading the Lexicons correctly. Then you claimed that BDAG was wrong and you claimed other Lexicons disagreed with BDAG when they did no such thing. Then you were shown your reading of the Lexicon was incorrect and not in context and reference to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 but to other scripture contexts. Now your continuing with this nonsense and not accepting correction? Seriously?

Well all I can say dear friend is get busy and start writing to each of those 27 independant groups of Koine Greek bible translators listed earlier and don't forget to also write to the BDAG LEXICON authors and tell all those 28 groups of Greek Scholars that they are all wrong and you are the only one with the correct understanding of the Koine Greek langauge and your interpretation of it is the correct one.

Or perhaps you could wait a minute and ask yourself if perhaps you just got it wrong? The second was proven to you here but your not listening again. I wish you well with your corresspondence with all the 28 groups of Greek Scholars you disagree with. Let me know how you go?

May you receive God's Word and be blessed dear friend, ingnoring it does not make it disappear. If you cannot receive correction on the Greek how are you going to learn from your mistakes? Anyhow you are free to believe as you wish.

You have been shown why your in error and it's up to you now what you do.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 2, 2020

Here we are after 89+ pages and 1762 posts latter and not a single scripture has been provided to prove the claims of "UNIVERSALISM" that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. When the scriptures alone teach that...

1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.

Elfkind · Jun 2, 2020

I think there's a pretty clear understanding on CF that Univeralism is not really a part of Orthodox Christendom, and as such placed in a place of it's own, at community where those that are Universalists can talk to each other and such it should - in my opinion - be simply tolerated as something most Christians don't feel is "ordinary Christianity", or not part of a the Apostolic Creed. Who can say if what is accepted by those that claim Universalism is the truth, will be judged as such by God or not, besides God? And then: What is there to discuss about it at all, if one knows one is not a Universalist or is one and don't agree with such people as you? That's what I don't get.

Personally I'll just say what my opinion is if anyone ask about it, but I don't think it's right for me to tell anyone that my opinion is THE CORRECT THING and THE ONLY TRUTH, nor that there's any future in debating with anyone that are sure they don't believe and don't have any interest in believing what I think is right and true, canon and Orthodox, the simple faith, the Truth, and the Way, and what leads to eternal life, but if anyone ask, I'll share it to anyone that want to hear it.

FineLinen · Jun 2, 2020

Alv Vatzdal said:
I think there's a pretty clear understanding on CF that Univeralism is not really a part of Orthodox Christendom, and as such placed in a place of it's own, at community where those that are Universalists can talk to each other and such it should - in my opinion - be simply tolerated as something most Christians don't feel is "ordinary Christianity", or not part of a the Apostolic Creed. Who can say if what is accepted by those that claim Universalism is the truth, will be judged as such by God or not, besides God? And then: What is there to discuss about it at all, if one knows one is not a Universalist or is one and don't agree with such people as you? That's what I don't get.

Personally I'll just say what my opinion is if anyone ask about it, but I don't think it's right for me to tell anyone that my opinion is THE CORRECT THING and THE ONLY TRUTH, nor that there's any future in debating with anyone that are sure they don't believe and don't have any interest in believing what I think is right and true, canon and Orthodox, the simple faith, the Truth, and the Way, and what leads to eternal life, but if anyone ask, I'll share it to anyone that want to hear it.

Welcome to the link.

It is a sad fact the restitution of all things was the theology of the earliest records of the Christian Church. And here we now sit on the unorthodox section of C.F.

The Beautiful Heresy

The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church

The First 500 Years

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

The Earliest Creeds 5

II Early Christianity a Cheerful Religion 17

III Origin of Endless Punishment 36

IV Doctrines of Mitigation and Reserve 53

V Two Kindred Topics 61

VI The Apostles' Immediate Successors 70

VII The Gnostic Sects

The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church

The History of Universalism (Part Two) | Christian Universalist Association

Elfkind · Jun 2, 2020

I saw a lot of beauty in Gnosticism, the gospel of Thomas specially, when I came from Buddhism, since it is appealing to the intellect, but yet the ultimate goal is to find release in oneself.

Still it is myself that I seek to find release from, in God.

But there's also things I can't understand ethically about Christendom. The problem of pain/suffering and the problem of salvation, or rather the lack thereof. Because of course I don't wish for damnation upon any, nor sickness or pain, or suffering in general.

But by faith I already can see and reach for all things I do not have and don't understand.

FineLinen · Jun 2, 2020

Alv Vatzdal said:
I saw a lot of beauty in Gnosticism, the gospel of Thomas specially, when I came from Buddhism, since it is appealing to the intellect, but yet the ultimate goal is to find release in oneself.

Still it is myself that I seek to find release from, in God.

But there's also things I can't understand ethically about Christendom. The problem of pain/suffering and the problem of salvation, or rather the lack thereof. Because of course I don't wish for damnation upon any, nor sickness or pain, or suffering in general.

But by faith I already can see and reach for all things I do not have and don't understand.

There are many things we do not understand. In fact we understand very little. Just when it would seem we grasp something of our God, new horizons of Him burst upon the horizon of His exceeding glory.

As the Master of rectification spoke with Nicodemus, one of the great questions of the Scriptures was expressed.

"Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How are these things able to be?"

FineLinen · Jun 2, 2020

ClementofA · Jun 2, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Why are you quoting JUDE 1:7 when we were discussing 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9:

Wasn't it obvious? Both passages use the Greek word aionios.

Your reply was essentially saying "I'm right, you're wrong, nah, nah, blah, blah, hope that helps".

Your response was full of errors & false claims & failed to deal with the points in my post:

LoveGodsWord said:
As shown earlier the Greek and 27 independent bible translations agree with me. None of these agree with you.

Those same 27 were - WRONG - when they translate aionios as "eternal" at Jude 1:7, so why should you think they got it right anywhere else? Is Sodom still burning today and forever, eternally, or did the fire go out long ago & was finite and temporary, not eternal?

All of the versions listed here saying "eternal" - WRONG!:

Jude 1:7 In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.

Compare other versions w/o "eternal", like YLT, Rotherham, Weymouth, CLV, etc:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian.(CLV)

7 As, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having in like manner to these given themselves over to fornication, and gone away after other kind of flesh, lie exposed as an example, a penalty of age-abiding fire, undergoing. (Ro)

7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before—an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering. (YLT)

Jude Judas, a slave of Jesus Christ, yet a brother of James, to those who are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept by Jesus Christ:"

*********************************************

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

ClementofA · Jun 2, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Oh goodness what nonsense. It is you who are WRONG dear friend, not the 27 bible translations and the BDAG LEXICON and all of their Greek scholars that disagreed with you.

Prove it. Some evidence would be helpful. Rather than blind faith in a pope or a single dead man (BDAG author) or endless punishment biased translators parroting one another to sell bibles. While many other scholars, translations & much evidence (as i've posted in multiple posts you've ignored) disagrees with them. Sticking one's head in the sand doesn't make the evidence go away.

LoveGodsWord said:
Why are you quoting JUDE 1:7 when we were discussing 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9:

Both use the word aionion, obviously.

LoveGodsWord said:
I am sorry dear friend but it is you who is wrong not the 27 bible translations and the Greek scholars who wrote them or BDAG. Why don't you simply accept correction and be blessed and learn from your mistakes?

Here you just repeat what you said above. Who are you trying to convince, or hypnotize, by such constant repetitions? Yourself? Your remark amounts to "I'm right, you're wrong, nah, nah, blah, blah, hope that helps". Not very helpful. No, not at all. At least not if you're trying to convince anyone of the veracity of your opinions.

LoveGodsWord said:
You were shown the Koine Greek word meanings as well as the application to context. Then 27 independent bible translations with each having their own groups of independant Greek scholars all saying the exact same thing and you come along with nothing and no proof saying they are all got it wrong?

Now it's three times you've repeated what you said above. Is that how many times it takes for the self-hypnosis to take effect. More of ""I'm right, you're wrong, nah, nah, blah, blah, hope that helps". Furthermore, as to you saying my post did offer "nothing" & i've given "no proof", how would you know when you didn't even comprehend the point of my post, let alone address it or all the other posts i've posted on the subject.

LoveGodsWord said:
You were proven wrong erlier in your reading of a Greek Lexicon two times in JOHN 3:36 and in 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 showing all your earlier claims being false and you were not reading the Lexicons correctly.

Nonsense. And to support your viewpoint you appealed to Thayer's lexicon which scholars today consider outdated.

LoveGodsWord said:
Then you claimed that BDAG was wrong and you claimed other Lexicons disagreed with BDAG when they did no such thing. Then you were shown your reading of the Lexicon was incorrect and not in context and reference to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 but to other scripture contexts. Now your continuing with this nonsense and not accepting correction? Seriously?

More nonsense which i already addressed in a post & you have no refutation of.

LoveGodsWord said:
Well all I can say dear friend is get busy and start writing to each of those 27 independant groups of Koine Greek bible translators listed earlier and don't forget to also write to the BDAG LEXICON authers and tell all those 28 groups of Greek Scholars that they are all wrong and you are the only one with the correct understanding of the Koine Greek langauge and your interpretation of it is the correct one.

There was only one author, not authors, to BDAG. And he has been dead for years. So how do you suggest i am going "write to" him?

"The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."

LoveGodsWord said:
Or perhaps you could wait a minute and ask yourself if perhaps you just got it wrong? The second was proven to you here but your not listening again. I wish you well with your corresspondence with all the 28 groups of Greek Scholars you disagree with. Let me know how you go?

How soon do you expect dead Danker will be replying. And you never responded to my post re BDAG & all the references in it supportive of universalism. Or my posts re what BDAG left out in its definitions of aionios. Is that being objective and honest? Of what theological bias was Danker? Was he influenced or possessed by demons? Why were there Early Church Fathers who evidently disagreed with him. Those ECF were raised speaking Koine Greek, were Greek scholars & much closer to the time of Christ than Danker.

LoveGodsWord said:
May you receive God's Word and be blessed dear friend, ingnoring it does not make it disappear.

Yet you are the one doing exactly that, ignoring all the evidence in my replies to you re this subject of aionion. Sticking one's head in the sand won't make the evidence go away.

LoveGodsWord said:
If you cannot receive correction on the Greek how are you going to learn from your mistakes? Anyhow you are free to believe as you wish.

You have been shown why your in error and it's up to you now what you do.

More of ""I'm right, you're wrong, nah, nah, blah, blah, hope that helps".

*********************************************

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

a-lily-of-peace · Jun 2, 2020

Alv Vatzdal said:
I saw a lot of beauty in Gnosticism, the gospel of Thomas specially, when I came from Buddhism, since it is appealing to the intellect, but yet the ultimate goal is to find release in oneself.

Still it is myself that I seek to find release from, in God.

But there's also things I can't understand ethically about Christendom. The problem of pain/suffering and the problem of salvation, or rather the lack thereof. Because of course I don't wish for damnation upon any, nor sickness or pain, or suffering in general.

But by faith I already can see and reach for all things I do not have and don't understand.

The book of Job is considered “wisdom literature” in the Jewish tradition, and one of the ways to study that isn’t found as much today is to simply read, pray, meditate, consider, see how it applies in all the crevices of every situation you’re in.

I don’t know if that will help but I thought I’d tell you something completely different but when I started typing it all felt wrong and I thought of Job instead.

I hope you find shalom in God’s grace.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 2, 2020

ClementofA said:
Wasn't it obvious? Both passages use the Greek word aionios.

Serious? And you see the cities of Sodom and Gommorah rebuilt where dear friend?

ClementofA said:
Your reply was essentially saying "I'm right, you're wrong, nah, nah, blah, blah, hope that helps". Your response was full of errors & false claims & failed to deal with the points in my post:

No. The earlier posts shared with you showed you why you were in error did you read any of them? It was your application to context that was in error in the Greek and your misuse of the Lexicon that proved why you were making mistakes. Happy to repost once again if it will be helpful. Your response here only shows you did not read my posts to you earlier.

ClementofA said:
Those same 27 were - WRONG - when they translate aionios as "eternal" at Jude 1:7, so why should you think they got it right anywhere else? Is Sodom still burning today and forever, eternally, or did the fire go out long ago & was finite and temporary, not eternal?

All of the versions listed here saying "eternal" - WRONG!:
Jude 1:7 In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.

You are confused. This post of yours only shows your not reading anything posted to you. We were discussing 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 with the results of destruction being eternal not the process but the completion as proven already in the Greek manuscript scan that was provided. The results of this destruction being eternal however is shown in the EXAMPLE of Sodom and Gomorrha as shown in JUDE 1:7

ClementofA said:
Compare other versions w/o "eternal", like YLT, Rotherham, Weymouth, CLV, etc:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian.(CLV)

7 As, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having in like manner to these given themselves over to fornication, and gone away after other kind of flesh, lie exposed as an example, a penalty of age-abiding fire, undergoing. (Ro)

7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before—an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering. (YLT)

Ok let's discuss JUDE 1:7 and see if the 27 bible translations and the Greek Lexicons have their transalations wrong...

JUDE 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, SUFFERING THE VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE.

The "ETERNAL FIRE" here is the presence of God...

The scripture is stating that Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them were set forth as an EXAMPLE to the unrepentant wicked who would suffer God’s VENGENCE of "ETERNAL FIRE". The fire is not an ordinary earthly fire but one coming from God the eternal one. Jude here is describing the divine nature of this fire by qualifying it as pyr aiōnion to the context of an "EXAMPLE" δεῖγμα of GOD'S "VENGENCE, JUDGEMENT or PUNISHMENT" δίκη. This fire is from the presence of the ETERNAL LIVING GOD as GOD is this ETERNAL FIRE!

God here is described as a “consuming fire” ......

DEUTERONOMY 4:24, For Jehovah thy GOD IS A DEVOURING FIRE, a jealous God

HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL EXPECTATION OF JUDGMENT, AND A FIERCENESS OF FIRE WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.

HEBREWS 12:25-29 [25], See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not when they refused him that warned them on earth, much more shall not we escape who turn away from him that warneth from heaven:[26], whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven. [27], And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. [28], Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe:[29], FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.

1 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9 [7], to you that are afflicted rest with us, at THE REVELATION OF THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH THE ANGELS OF HIS POWER IN FLAMING FIRE,[8], RENDERING VENGEANCE TO THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND TO THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS: [9], WHO SHALL SUFFER PUNISHMENT, EVEN ETERNAL DESTRUCTION FROM THE FACE OF THE LORD and from the glory of his might,

The "ETERNAL FIRE" is from the presence of the ETERNAL GOD.

So NO dear friend the 27 translations are correct as is the Greek renderings. You have misinterpreted JUDE 1:9.

..............

The point here in JUDE 1:9 and the other scriptures shown is that God’s VENGENCE is ETERNAL and his punishment is by FIRE that comes from His presence. It continues until everything is destroyed. It is God’s punishment to the wicked and this punishment by fire from his presence is eternal destruction. It does not mean that the fire keeps burning after the wicked are consumed (Sodom and Gommorha are examples). It is God's fire and God is eternal. It means that "OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE AND THIS FIRE IS ETERNAL BECAUSE IT COMES FROM THE PRESENCE OF GOD and the wicked will be destroyed at His presence and will be no more. The example shown here in JUDE 1:9 is what will happen to the unrepentant wicked after the second coming when they partake of God’s VENGENCE and receive the second death *REVELATION 21:7-8.

GOD'S VENGENCE here as shown in JUDE 1:7 being eternal fire only supports what is being shared with you here dear friend. That is that the eternal fire is the punishment from the LORD to the unrepentant wicked at the second coming which is eternal. This punishment is ETERNAL as it results in the consuming and devouring *HEBREWS 10:27-31 of the unrepentant wicked until they are no more and cease to exist and their destruction is eternal just like the example of Sodom and Gomorrha which are examples of what will happen to the unrepentant wicked after the second coming.

...............

SUMMARY: Nope! The 27 bible translations and Greek LEXICONS are not in error to their use of eternal fire in JUDE 1:7. The eternal fire is from the presence of God that devours sin and God is the eternal fire that brings destruction to the unrepentant wicked after the second coming when they recieve the second death.

Hope this helps

LoveGodsWord · Jun 2, 2020

ClementofA said:
Prove it. Some evidence would be helpful. Rather than blind faith in a pope or a single dead man (BDAG author) or endless punishment biased translators parroting one another to sell bibles. While many other scholars, translations & much evidence (as i've posted in multiple posts you've ignored) disagrees with them. Sticking one's head in the sand doesn't make the evidence go away.

Both use the word aionion, obviously.

Here you just repeat what you said above. Who are you trying to convince, or hypnotize, by such constant repetitions? Yourself? Your remark amounts to "I'm right, you're wrong, nah, nah, blah, blah, hope that helps". Not very helpful. No, not at all. At least not if you're trying to convince anyone of the veracity of your opinions.

Now it's three times you've repeated what you said above. Is that how many times it takes for the self-hypnosis to take effect. More of ""I'm right, you're wrong, nah, nah, blah, blah, hope that helps". Furthermore, as to you saying my post did offer "nothing" & i've given "no proof", how would you know when you didn't even comprehend the point of my post, let alone address it or all the other posts i've posted on the subject.

Nonsense. And to support your viewpoint you appealed to Thayer's lexicon which scholars today consider outdated.

More nonsense which i already addressed in a post & you have no refutation of.

There was only one author, not authors, to BDAG. And he has been dead for years. So how do you suggest i am going "write to" him?

"The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."

How soon do you expect dead Danker will be replying. And you never responded to my post re BDAG & all the references in it supportive of universalism. Or my posts re what BDAG left out in its definitions of aionios. Is that being objective and honest? Of what theological bias was Danker? Was he influenced or possessed by demons? Why were there Early Church Fathers who evidently disagreed with him. Those ECF were raised speaking Koine Greek, were Greek scholars & much closer to the time of Christ than Danker.

Yet you are the one doing exactly that, ignoring all the evidence in my replies to you re this subject of aionion. Sticking one's head in the sand won't make the evidence go away.

More of ""I'm right, you're wrong, nah, nah, blah, blah, hope that helps".

Your errors in JOHN 3:36 and 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 have been proven a number of times now. Your post here only shows you are not reading my posts to you. The lists of proofs provided to you where highlighted in post # 1761 linked.

The links to the post proof are shown below...

2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 is posted in posts # 1657 linked; post # 1658 linked and post # 1659 linked. You made similar mistakes in your use of LEXICON contexts also when discussing

JOHN 3:36 as proven here in post # 1591 linked. You were shown why your use of the Lexicon was in error in post # 1592 linked

The ""I'm right, you're wrong, nah, nah, blah, blah, hope that helps" slogan you posted is what you are doing. You have been provided evidence that proves the mistakes you have made. Your just refusing to receive the correction that has been only sent in love as a help to you. You are free to believe as you wish. I believe you have been corrected and shown why you are in error here. If you disagree it is ok. We will have to agree to disagree.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.

FineLinen · Jun 2, 2020

The question of universalism (the Restitution of all things) is usually argued on a basis altogether misleading (as though the point involved is chiefly, or wholly, man’s endless suffering).

Odious and repulsive to every moral instinct, as is that dogma, it is not the turning point of this controversy.

The vital question is this, that the creed (alienation or e.t.) by teaching the perpetuity of evil, points to a victorious devil, and to sin as finally triumphant over God.

It makes the corrupt, yes, the bestial in our fallen nature to be eternal. It represents what is foulest and most loathsome in man, the most obstinate sin as being enduring as God Himself.

It confers the dignity of immortal life on what is morally abominable.

It teaches perpetual anarchy, and a final chaos.

It enthrones pandemonium as an eternal fact side by side with Paradise; and, gazing over its fetid and obscene abysses, is not afraid to call this the triumph of Jesus Christ, this the realization of the promise that God shall be “All in All”.

Jesus Christ triumphs over ALL thanantos !

FineLinen · Jun 2, 2020

Is the throne of the Lord white or black?

The throne is white.

May the One Who will be seated upon it keep us from painting it black. The judgment is viewed in the light of its outcome.

If it leads to eternal conscious torment or annihilation for all who stand before it as orthodoxy demands, then the throne is black and an outrage on justice and a heartless exhibition of fiendish cruelty.

It is only when we see that the outcome of this judgment is universal reconciliation (Col. 1:20), that we can really acknowledge that the throne is white.

It is only when we limit the actual infliction of pain and penalties to the judgment era that we are able to appreciate the righteousness of God’s throne.

The judgment is as varied as the individual.

It is as different as their acts. Some will suffer severely, some slightly, and all according to their deserts.

There is no reason to prolong this time to infinity. It is preparatory to their reconciliation.

ClementofA · Jun 2, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi Scott how are you and nice to meet you and welcome. Interesting scripture Revaltion 14 though a little off topic to this OP. I will spend a bit of time here on it though if it may be of help. Though this is shared from another forum and not mine with some of mine added..

1. There are scriptures in the bible to suggest the wicked will finally be destroyed.
2. There are many instances in the bible which uses expressions such as "for ever" but was not referring to how we would measure the length of forever.

Now to point #1 here are a few scriptures.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Burning forever or eternal torment cannot be compromised with being destroyed, perishing, being consumed or being burnt up. It is either one or the other. The reality is that after the wicked is thrown into the lake of fire, God will at some time create a New Heaven and a New Earth which cannot be done if this scene of destruction is still taking place. All things will become new and no remnants on the past shall remain which includes the lake of fire and destruction of the wicked.

To point #2.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

(Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning)

1Ch 28:4 Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:

(David is no longer King over Israel)

There are more that I can't remember now but you get the idea. Words such as forever, is dependant on the subject for its length. Eternal, everlasting and forever when God is the subject really does mean forever, because God is eternal in the truest sense. Forever, in reference to a man is limited to the lifespan on the man. Husbands and wives take vows to love each other forever, but that is limited to their life. Same thing applies to the wicked in the lake of fire, they would experience the lake of fire forever, but as long as they are alive, until they are finally consumed, destroyed, perished. The wages of sin is death not eternal torment. To die means to perish. The reward of the saved, is eternal life. The reward of the wicked cannot be eternal life (in torment) as well.

..........

Also, we can directly compare Revelation 14:9-11 with ISAIAH 34:9-10. Take a read they are very similar and some people think ISAIAH is in reference to REVELATION here. The point here is the everlasting is in reference to being all burn't up (nothing more to burn).

There are obvious similarities between the two sets of scriptures. Brimstone is mentioned in both (Isa. 34:9 and Rev. 14:10). Smoke that goes up forever is also mentioned (Isa. 34:10 and Rev. 14:11). But, there are also differences. The torment of persons with fire and brimstone is only in Revelation.

Furthermore, this torment occurs in "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb," which also is also only in Revelation. Fire is mention in Rev. 14:11, but not Isaiah 33:9-10. Also, Isaiah says "night and day," where Revelation says, "day and night." Isaiah is about judgment on Edom so it is not still bunring today it is all burned up. Revelation 14:9-11 I believe is in reference to the future where the wicked will be totally destroyed and not exist, just like Edom. John the apostle is using Old Testament illustrations to convey the concept that God's work of judgment is permanent, as is the case of Edom. In the presence of ther lamb and the Holy Angels is in reference to the 2nd coming when God's judgement are poured out on the wicked. Hope this is helpful.

God bless

In this post you imply that:

1) eternal can mean less than eternal. Jude 1:7 was your example where you said re Jude 1:7 that "Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning"

2) everlasting can mean less than everlasting

3) forever can mean less than forever

4) forever and ever can mean less than forever and ever

You state:

LoveGodsWord said:
2. There are many instances in the bible which uses expressions such as "for ever" but was not referring to how we would measure the length of forever.

and your first example of that is:

LoveGodsWord said:
To point #2.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

(Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning)

Yup. "Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning". That "eternal fire" went out long ago. It was not "eternal". The translations that say "eternal" are wrong.

As you say re Jude 1:7:

"2. There are many instances in the bible which uses expressions such as "for ever" but was not referring to how we would measure the length of forever."

LoveGodsWord · Jun 3, 2020

ClementofA said:
In this post you imply that:

1) eternal can mean less than eternal. Jude 1:7 was your example where you said re Jude 1:7 that "Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning"

2) everlasting can mean less than everlasting

3) forever can mean less than forever

4) forever and ever can mean less than forever and ever

You state:

and your first example of that is:

Yup. "Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning". That "eternal fire" went out long ago. It was not "eternal". The translations that say "eternal" are wrong.

As you say re Jude 1:7:

"2. There are many instances in the bible which uses expressions such as "for ever" but was not referring to how we would measure the length of forever."

No not at all. I did not imply anything in regards to JUDE 1:7. I provided a detailed outline on eternal fire to JUDE 1:7 in the second half of post # 1771 linked did you read it? Maybe you have a misunderstanding of what I believe in these scriptures. I do not believe that the fires are still burning but the fire that destroyed Sodom is eternal because it comes from God's presence and God is eternal hence the use of pyr aiōnion which is correctly stated in all 27 parallel bible translations. The post you have provided is consistent with what I have further outlined in the linked post above which build on that older post. Thanks for adding that linked post as post # 240 linked that you have shown in your post compliments the more recent post in post # 1771 linked above. But no I do not believe in the Catholic and some Protestant interpretation of enternal burning hell fire. What determines the meaning and application of aiōnion as posted earlier is the scripture context it is applied to.

ClementofA · Jun 3, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
No not at all. I did not imply anything in regards to JUDE 1:7. I provided a detailed outline on eternal fire to JUDE 1:7 in the second half of post # 1771 linked did you read it? Maybe you have a misunderstanding of what I believe in these scriptures. I do not believe that the fires are still burning but the fire that destroyed Sodom is eternal because it comes from God's presence and God is eternal hence the use of pyr aiōnion which is correctly stated in all 27 parallel bible translations. The post you have provided is consistent with what I have further outlined in the linked post above which build on that older post. Thanks for adding that linked post as post # 240 linked that you have shown in your post compliments the more recent post in post # 1771 linked above. But no I do not believe in the Catholic and some Protestant interpretation of enternal burning hell fire. What determines the meaning and application of aiōnion as posted earlier is the scripture context it is applied to.

It is evident you changed your viewpoint re Jude 1:7.

ClementofA · Jun 3, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Nonsense! As shown earlier the Greek and 27 independent bible translations agree with me. None of these agree with you.

Those same translations are WRONG in - many - places. For example Rev.14:11:

King James Bible
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

The translation "for ever and ever" is just self contradictory nonsense. If something is forever you can't add any "and ever" to it.

More honest, accurate and literal translations are like this:

Berean Literal Bible
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages; and those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest day and night, and if anyone receives the mark of its name."

Darby Bible Translation
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name.

Weymouth New Testament
And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.

Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Greek-English Interlinear says "ages of ages" here:

Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

The translators biased to the endless hell dogma rendered terms (olam, aion, aionios, etc) that can & do - often - refer to finite durations as "eternal", "forever" & the like in contexts referring to eschatological punishment. Thus, they rendered them according to their theological position. What they should have done is translated them as theologically neutral terms, e.g. eon, eonian, which can refer either to a finite or endless period of time. And left the interpreting up to the readers whether or not, in any given context, the words "eon" & "eonian" refer to a finite or endless "eon" or "eonian" duration. But, instead they injected their opinion, their interpretation, of terms (such as olam, aion & aionion) into the text. Thus you don't have a faithful translation of these words with most English translations, but rather an interpretation, a paraphrase, a theologically driven opinion.

The fair way to translate (olam, aion, aionion, etc) is to use an English word (e.g. eon, eonian) that covers the range of meanings for that term & leave the interpreting up to the readers. Rather than inject one's theological biases into Scripture's ancient language words that have multiple or ambiguous meanings. If an appropriate English word is not available, then there is the option of using the ancient language word, i.e. not translating it, as some versions have done, e.g. using aionion. Or just transliterate it into English, e.g. eonian (or alternately aeonian, agian, etc.).

For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

LoveGodsWord · Jun 3, 2020

ClementofA said:
It is evident you changed your viewpoint re Jude 1:7.

It is evident I never have changed my view if you read my posts. Your understanding of my view however seems a little vague for you to even write this post. Perhaps you should read my posts to you.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 3, 2020

ClementofA said:
Those same translations are WRONG in - many - places. For example Rev.14:11:

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

The translation "for ever and ever" is just self contradictory nonsense. If something is forever you can't add any "and ever" to it.

More honest, accurate and literal translations are like this:

Berean Literal Bible
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages; and those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest day and night, and if anyone receives the mark of its name."

Darby Bible Translation
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name.

Weymouth New Testament
And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.

Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Greek-English Interlinear says "ages of ages" here:

Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

The translators biased to the endless hell dogma rendered terms (olam, aion, aionios, etc) that can & do - often - refer to finite durations as "eternal", "forever" & the like in contexts referring to eschatological punishment. Thus, they rendered them according to their theological position. What they should have done is translated them as theologically neutral terms, e.g. eon, eonian, which can refer either to a finite or endless period of time. And left the interpreting up to the readers whether or not, in any given context, the words "eon" & "eonian" refer to a finite or endless "eon" or "eonian" duration. But, instead they injected their opinion, their interpretation, of terms (such as olam, aion & aionion) into the text. Thus you don't have a faithful translation of these words with most English translations, but rather an interpretation, a paraphrase, a theologically driven opinion.

The fair way to translate (olam, aion, aionion, etc) is to use an English word (e.g. eon, eonian) that covers the range of meanings for that term & leave the interpreting up to the readers. Rather than inject one's theological biases into Scripture's ancient language words that have multiple or ambiguous meanings. If an appropriate English word is not available, then there is the option of using the ancient language word, i.e. not translating it, as some versions have done, e.g. using aionion. Or just transliterate it into English, e.g. eonian (or alternately aeonian, agian, etc.).

For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

Nonsense. Those 27 translations are not wrong. This has already been proven to you. It is your understanding of the Greek that is wrong as you apply Greek word meaning to different scripture contexts or to a Catholic/Protestant interpretation which is also not biblical as shown above. The rest of you post is simply repitition already addressed without you addressing any of the content of my post to you. See post # 240 linked together with post # 1771 linked above that compliments my earlier linked post thanks.

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Senior Veteran

Active Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads